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A question dealing with the 'Free-miner' haters

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Amana Tsasa Hedion University Amarr Empire 4	Posted - 2011.12.31 21:47:00 - [1] - Quote Now, I'm not necessarily saying I support or condemn the philosophy of the 'What I mine is free' crowd, I don't personally care about the philosophy one way or the other. My question is, why do so many other people care?
Skorpynekomimi E.A.D Alliance Omega Vector 37	Posted - 2011.12.31 22:22:00 - [2] - Quote Because they're being undercut.
Krixtal Icefluxor Bison - Ammatar Thunder Thundering Herd 178	Posted - 2011.12.31 22:27:00 - [3] - Quote Amana Tsasa wrote: Now, I'm not necessarily saying I support or condemn the philosophy of the 'What I mine is free' crowd, I don't personally care about the philosophy one way or the other. My question is, why do so many other people care? I've been wondering that for 2 years. 'Tis indeed pathological of a sort.................... One thing I've learned getting older is that most people are absolutely out of their minds. Always keep in mind with all things EVE and it's large population. OMG He Spent His Free-áAURUM ! God is simply-áthe very extraordinary power of the Universe to organize Itself as percieved. -á-á- Lee Smolin "Three Roads to Quantum Gravity"
Bath Sheeba Another Success Story 31	Posted - 2011.12.31 22:43:00 - [4] - Quote People care for the simple fact that the "minerals I mine are free" statement is untrue. it is against facts. If people went around saying squares are round or the sun is made of water then others would and do say they are wrong.
Abdiel Kavash Paladin Order Fidelas Constans 265	Posted - 2011.12.31 22:45:00 - [5] - Quote If you see a guy smacking his head against a wall until he bleeds, do you not care or do you try to stop him from hurting himself?
Amana Tsasa Hedion University Amarr Empire 4	Posted - 2011.12.31 22:54:00 - [6] - Quote Bath Sheeba wrote: People care for the simple fact that the "minerals I mine are free" statement is untrue. it is against facts. If people went around saying squares are round or the sun is made of water then others would and do say they are wrong. People go around saying all sorts of stuff is true that go against facts, but I have noticed that the 'minerals I mine are free' haters seem to be far more vocal about that point than the 'minerals I mine are free' miners. Abdiel Kavash wrote: If you see a guy smacking his head against a wall until he bleeds, do you not care or do you try to stop him from hurting himself? I do not care, and while that may make me seem callous and cold, if that person is foolish enough to cause himself serious injury, then Natural Selection had him pegged far sooner than I ever could have gotten to him.
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 91	Posted - 2011.12.31 23:24:00 - [7] - Quote It's simple. Both are bad. "Minerals I mine myself are free" guys are wasting someone else's (who understands the value of time) profits. Those who flame the above (often it's other miners) are oblivious that there are always baddies everywhere. They should USE them to get cheap labor, not blame them while still subjecting themselves to the same cheap labor.
Derath Ellecon Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal 59	Posted - 2011.12.31 23:32:00 - [8] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: It's simple. Both are bad. "Minerals I mine myself are free" guys are wasting someone else's (who understands the value of time) profits. Those who flame the above (often it's other miners) are oblivious that there are always baddies everywhere. They should USE them to get cheap labor, not blame them while still subjecting themselves to the same cheap labor. Bolded the important part. The problem with the above statement is that we are talking about a GAME. If this were real life then yes theses business people would be idiots and run their "corps" into bankruptcy. But EVE is a game. There is no set standard on a person's value of their time spent. There are those in every MMO that simply like to craft. Sometimes they eve like to craft everything from scratch. Then they also don't care about competition and just want to sell their wares without hassle. For these players the time spent collecting the materials to craft their wares have an intrinsic value not in terms of opportunity cost, but in their game enjoyment. Sure it is a flawed idea in a business framework. But honestly, I do that every day for my real job. I play EVE to escape that stuff (which is honestly why i can't get into the industrial side all that much).
Taedrin Kushan Industrial 293	Posted - 2012.01.01 01:24:00 - [9] - Quote People are upset because they perceive that these people are keeping prices down on certain items which are not profitable to manufacture. I would imagine that the reason these items are not profitable to manufacture is not because of the "minerals I mine are free" mentality, but instead because the items simply aren't in high enough demand.
Jas Dor Republic University Minmatar Republic 11	Posted - 2012.01.01 01:29:00 - [10] - Quote People who complain bout the free mineral crowd either a. lack the skill/ standings to do a perfect reprocess or b. are looking at a margin of less than 1%-0.5% on a reprocess to sell orders.
J Kunjeh 205	Posted - 2012.01.01 14:12:00 - [11] - Quote Don't these same whiners realize that playing Eve in any way represents a real life lost opportunity cost? Think of all the useful things one could be doing for themselves and humanity if they weren't wasting time devising how to build larger wallets in a stupid game! I mean, they might actually figure out how to make their RL wallets phatter if they put the same energy into RL as they did into Eve. Talk about high opportunity cost! "The world as we know it came about through an anomaly (anomou)" (The Gospel of Philip, 1-5)-á
FlinchingNinja Kishunuba Perkone Caldari State 60	Posted - 2012.01.01 22:06:00 - [12] - Quote Time is money people..... and there ain't no such thing as "free".
Covert Kitty SRS Industries SRS. 124	Posted - 2012.01.01 23:23:00 - [13] - Quote I think the reason I occasionally care enough to post on the subject, comes from feeling a mild offense at blatantly false reasoning, combined with a general desire to help people.
Woo Glin GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 338	Posted - 2012.01.01 23:30:00 - [14] - Quote lol you mine
Amana Tsasa Hedion University Amarr Empire 6	Posted - 2012.01.01 23:32:00 - [15] - Quote Woo Glin wrote: lol you mine I do occasionally, but mostly I mission, even when I do mine, I don't typically build anything with it
Derath Ellecon Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal 95	Posted - 2012.01.02 00:19:00 - [16] - Quote Covert Kitty wrote: I think the reason I occasionally care enough to post on the subject, comes from feeling a mild offense at blatantly false reasoning, combined with a general desire to help people. Except the only flaw is that you are trying to apply real life reasoning to a game.
Gabba Cyno 9	Posted - 2012.01.02 00:56:00 - [17] - Quote People are stupid. Thats why! .
Tramp Oline District of Power 5	Posted - 2012.01.02 07:04:00 - [18] - Quote PvPers are always jealous of miners and industrialists. Miners and industrialists are always rich and PvPers are always broke.
Tramp Oline District of Power 5	Posted - 2012.01.02 07:10:00 - [19] - Quote Derath Ellecon wrote: Covert Kitty wrote: I think the reason I occasionally care enough to post on the subject, comes from feeling a mild offense at blatantly false reasoning, combined with a general desire to help people. Except the only flaw is that you are trying to apply real life reasoning to a game. This too. Eve is a game people. Stop trying to pretend it's real life. The money that I pay is to keep my subscription going for the month. I'm going to pay the same amount of money whether I spin my ship in the station all day or mine. Anything I do in game is free to me. The only thing that costs me is my subscription.
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn Department 10 0	Posted - 2012.01.02 11:32:00 - [20] - Quote I can see both points of view. And I wholeheartedly agree that, whether you are in-game or in real life, you need to be enjoying what you are doing at work and/or home. BUT on balance I have to side with those that state 'mined ore is NOT free'. If for no other reason than that it is purely a matter of logic. Those industrialists who work on the principle that mined ore IS free and either sell that ore on for less isk or manufacture goods and sell those on at an undervalued rate do indeed destroy the econony of New Eden. There is no question that is a one hundred percent cast iron fact
Flurk Hellbron Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 70	Posted - 2012.01.02 12:29:00 - [21] - Quote Free ore? Nice, them may give it to me...............
Ameron Phinard 7	Posted - 2012.01.02 21:22:00 - [22] - Quote Tramp Oline wrote: The money that I pay is to keep my subscription going for the month. I'm going to pay the same amount of money whether I spin my ship in the station all day or mine. Anything I do in game is free to me. The only thing that costs me is my subscription. Fine if you actually enjoy mining, but it's a terrible waste of time otherwise.
dukonata The Drake Project The Dominion Empire 5	Posted - 2012.01.03 01:35:00 - [23] - Quote I do a bit of everything in the game and what i really hate is when i see people come on here and post that what I enjoy doing in a sandbox game is wrong. I thought the whole idea of a sandbox game was to do whatever you want. with no true end game content like they have in other MMOs you set yourself your own goals. Some people set themself a goal to PVP, others to clear missions as quickly as they can and others set it to be able to mine and produce things from start to finish. Just because people have set their own goals different to what others have doesn't make it wrong, just means what they want from this sandbox game is differentto what you want. If people who can't understand that or don't like should head back to other MMOs where everything and everyone is the same.
Covert Kitty SRS Industries SRS. 125	Posted - 2012.01.03 02:00:00 - [24] - Quote Quote: PvPers are always jealous of miners and industrialists. Miners and industrialists are always rich and PvPers are always broke. Wow... so much fail in so few words, if that was your intent I must applaud you. Firstly, unless you have an army of bots, nobody has ever gotten rich mining (and even if you had bots, there are better targets than that). Secondly, if someone considers oneself an "industrialist" chances are they are they aren't very well off, lacking a more full picture of where manufacturing fits in with other market activities. Manufacturing is merely the ability to turn one thing into another, just one of many tools a trader has in his arsenal. A common misconception is that the act of manufacturing itself is always profitable, the truth being that this is usually not the case. The rich in Eve generally fall in these categories: 1: "Market Activities", scamming, manipulations, speculation, old fashioned station/region trading, etc 2: High end PvE grinders (optimized C5/6, nullsec sanctums, plexes, etc) 3: Meta gaming services (EoH, 3rd party, website services, alliance conquests/politics/theft, etc) 4: Botting low end activities like mining, missioning, & ratting (obviously not advocating this, but it is true sadly) (imo) Rich: 100bil+ Super Rich: 500bil+ That said, having tons of isk isn't that important if your a dedicated pvp'er. There are many who just make what they need to buy their next ship and go roaming. I respect that way of thinking a great deal to be honest.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force 1016	Posted - 2012.01.03 04:12:00 - [25] - Quote Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn wrote: I can see both points of view. And I wholeheartedly agree that, whether you are in-game or in real life, you need to be enjoying what you are doing at work and/or home. BUT on balance I have to side with those that state 'mined ore is NOT free'. If for no other reason than that it is purely a matter of logic. Those industrialists who work on the principle that mined ore IS free and either sell that ore on for less isk or manufacture goods and sell those on at an undervalued rate do indeed destroy the econony of New Eden. There is no question that is a one hundred percent cast iron fact A lot of people keep confusing "free" with "worthless". Mined ore is (or at least can be) "technically free" (as in, not having paid any ISK for it, or at least negligible amounts of ISK), but then again, so is ISK itself and just about anything else inside EVE, so the term "free" has very little practical meaning in EVE. What mined ore isn't is worthless (or worth less than market price), so turning it into something worth less than its original worth is a net asset value loss, and therefore kind of silly (with very few exceptions regarding certain unusual relations between speed of mining vs speed of selling minerals vs speed of selling manufactured items). However, I would NOT agree that they're destroying the economy, not as long as more mathematically-aware people stick around. What they're actually end up doing most of the time practically is donating ISK they don't realize they had to people who know how to value stuff properly. Sure, it might shut out a small portion of profit-minded manufacturers from those particular items, but then again, if such below-cost (or very close to at-cost) items persist on that market, the profit from manufacturing those items would have not been worth bothering to begin with, so nothing of value was actually lost. If somebody puts up an item below mineral value, a trader or somebody skilled in reprocessing should shortly pop up and either relist the item at a price closer to the usual market levels or reprocess it and sell the minerals individually. Either way, the original "MIMAF" producer loses the potential ISK while the trader gains it (minus applicable NPC fees and taxes), and the consumer gets a nice enough price - everybody else wins except the original MIMAF manufacturer. http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Contributor_name:Akita_T#Contributions_link_collection
Arcathra Technodyne Ltd. 75	Posted - 2012.01.03 08:51:00 - [26] - Quote It's not that much about the time invested, it is more about the value of the ore. Let's say I'm producing Rifters. To apply simple logic I can assume that the selling price for the raw minerals that I need to produce the Rifter is lower than the end product, the Rifter itself. I should get an added value by bulding something of those minerals. People who buy minerals and produce said Rifters "live" by that added value. They put additional "work" into raising the value, like buying and researching blueprints, invest time to produce the Rifters, transport them around to trade hubs etc. The "ores are free"-people are hurting the producers. If I look at the market, the Rifter is sold under the value of the ore that is needed to produce it. That means it isn't profitable to buy minerals and build them. And for someone who mines his ore by himself it is also more profitable to just sell the minerals on the market instead to produce them, otherwise he would make a loss. I honestly don't know if that is the specific problem with the Rifter or if this practice has such a big impact on the market as a whole. Just an example to demonstrate the problem and to show why some people tend to dislike the "ores are free"-people. There are some people who have chosen the industrial and trade part of the game as their main play style. It is not that hard to imagine that they are not amused, isn't it? The funny part is, and that is the reason why many industrial players are shaking their heads, that the "ores are free" people hurt their own income with that. They could make more ISK out of their ores/minerals with a lot less effort.
Jarnis McPieksu Aliastra Gallente Federation 167	Posted - 2012.01.03 09:29:00 - [27] - Quote This effect is caused by people who are bad at math and/or lazy and/or conditioned by other MMOs. They can't be bothered to do the math, they just work on basic assumptions on how MMO crafting systems work. In the past, they have learned that in MMOs you make money by gathering resources and then crafting something that people buy. So they go and buy a blueprint for something that they think people will buy (Rifter is a good entry level BPO and the person in question can probably use Rifters himself and these guys love when they can craft some "free" stuff for themselves on the side). So with the BPO on hand, the noob goes like this; "hmm to manufacture this requires this and that and that material... okay, I can mine most of this stuff here in highsec. I buy the high ends and mine the rest, make Rifters and PROFIT!!!!!" And funnily enough, at the end of the day when those Rifters sell, the guy gets ISK. He is happy and keeps doing what makes him ISK. He mines, refines, buys a bit of high ends and manufactures more Rfiters, selling them and "raking it in". The point of FAIL here is that he never bothers to (or is incapable of) do math and figure out how much the input materials for the manufacturing process are on the market. It doesn't even cross his mind that the Rifters sold on the market by others (which he ends up undercutting to make sales) may be priced at below what he would get if he had just sold the ore or minerals he mined. "That would be just silly. Why would the market price of Rifter be lower than the materials?" ...and the scrapmetal reprocessors and users of Rifters thank these idiots for providing below-cost ships to fly and/or reprocess. Usually the price hovers just above the "worth reprocessing for raw minerals" level and well below the "cost of building if materials bought from sell orders". Same actually extends to large parts of T1 manufacturing - more expensive the blueprint, less of this you end up seeing but even with battlecruisers and battleships you see prices that are usually "at loss" with unresearched blueprint. So whoever is manufacturing these is churning them out from minerals obtained through lowball buy-orders (some hauling effort required) and using a well-researched blueprint. He still makes a profit, but the margins are razor-thin. On the other hand, once you get everything set up, it is "easy ISK" that keeps on flowing with fairly minimal gameplay effort.
Duncan Mileghere S.T.A.R. Syndicate Germany 0	Posted - 2012.01.03 13:58:00 - [28] - Quote J Kunjeh wrote: Don't these same whiners realize that playing Eve in any way represents a real life lost opportunity cost? Think of all the useful things one could be doing for themselves and humanity if they weren't wasting time devising how to build larger wallets in a stupid game! I mean, they might actually figure out how to make their RL wallets phatter if they put the same energy into RL as they did into Eve. Talk about high opportunity cost! This is probably the best statement on this subject I've ever seen. I might add that somebody who sees minerals as free doesn't have to be bad at math, he or she simply doesn't care. I'm a trader and math student in real life, I do care but I would never criticize others for their way of playing this game. It's up to them and if they enjoy Eve that way it's fine. Who are we to judge how others should play this game? It's probably simply that feeling of having "created" something ingame, that makes it more appealing to them, rather than just selling their minerals for a higher profit.
Zhu Khan NK-14 Obsidian Mining Coalition 3	Posted - 2012.01.03 16:41:00 - [29] - Quote I view free-mining as a glorious form of PVP trading. It's the industrial corrolary of a suicide gank (although smart players with good refining skills can use it to their advantage).
Arkon Olacar Imperial Guardians 0	Posted - 2012.01.03 22:07:00 - [30] - Quote Okay, I am a newb, so I obviously havent as much experience in these matters as all of you, but here is my opinion on this: I can spend all day mining pyro in my mining frigate of noobery, hauling it in my hauler of noobishness, and make about 1 mil isk per haulage trip back to base, which takes over an hour to mine. I can then refresh the can and continue mining... and continue mining... and keep mining. At the end of the day, I can make about 10 mil isk, depending how hard I try, whether there is an orca around etc etc. The next day I login and start mining again. And the next day. Or I can mine for a few hours in my mining frigate of noobery, haul it back, reprocess with very inefficient refining skills, manufacture some basic t1 modules with horrendous ineffienciency - the blueprints are so demeaning, pointing out how wasteful you are being - haul them to a minor trade hub in my industrial of noobishness, and sell for about 70% of the value of the ore if Im lucky. One of them makes the most isk, the other makes me actually engage with the game. Im am still getting a fair bit of isk, considering that the noob shopping list is pocket change to 95% of players, and I am enjoying playing the game. Could I maximise my time and make more isk? Yes, of course I could. I have an IQ over my shoe size, I realise that I could squeeze a fraction more isk by simply selling the ore raw. Do I care? No. I am aiming at being a 'real' industrialist/manufacturer, so some of my early skills have reduced the loss in 'potential isk' to the point where refining ore and selling the minerals resulted in only a loss of 0.8% of the potential value of the ore after a days mining. I do know that eventually, refining and manufacturing will actually be the more profitable way to go, but for now, I dont really care about the handful of isk I am losing out on.

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