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To Devs: mining in low-sec and 0.0 is just not worth it anymore.

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Ecky X The Aforementioned	Posted - 2007.05.25 10:42:00 - [61] Even if there isn't a problem with Drones, there is a problem with the value of ore. Are we in agreement that Scordite should NOT be more valuable than everything except Bistot and Arkonor? -----
Gabba The Three Hundred	Posted - 2007.05.25 10:47:00 - [62] Inflation is good for GTC sales, so dont expect CCP to do anything about this other then further inflate ISK value.
insulubria	Posted - 2007.05.25 10:47:00 - [63] Edited by: insulubria on 25/05/2007 10:46:30 Originally by: Rhaegor Stormborn Where I live we can make 300 million in an hour mining as a small group. Not sure what you are going on about 0.0 mining not worth it. where I run cosmos i can do double that per hour, alone. OH, in hisec btw, welcome to eve.
Adaris Gallente	Posted - 2007.05.25 10:52:00 - [64] Originally by: Raz Slicer So as you can see plain dumb mining low sec vs hi sec. Don't even need to mention having duck in station hide from pirates. Please don't say fight them, by time I switch ships and fight i loose more time then just ducking in station. Now mining the BEST ores in 0.0 if you had access to them and where able to mine non stop without hostiles entering the system (unlikely) yields 1,213,000 mill more per hour. So thats ~11.8% more isk per hour then mining hi sec, if your able to mine best ore 0.0 nonstop (again, doubtful) vs hi sec where u can mine pretty much non stop. Excellent work mate, you speak the truth here. Its shocking that for 1 million isk less you could mine in empire and be practically safer. This sickens me. Please Help me, YOU could be next!
fire 59 Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.05.25 10:53:00 - [65] You lot do realise that zyd has gone to the price it was originally at before it over inflated to a ******** amount yeah? BoB vs the coalition of family values
insulubria	Posted - 2007.05.25 10:55:00 - [66] have a friend spawn you 13x80k rocks of omber 10x50k rocks of kernite 10x50k rocks of scordite under the scan dampening field of a deadspace mission complex in 1.0 sec space whenever, why goto 0.0
Adaris Gallente	Posted - 2007.05.25 11:04:00 - [67] Originally by: ssorion If we calculate possible max income for dron regs, it may sound a bit high. But once you consider all the risk and work involved - its easy to see how it fits into the 'Risk~Reward' scheme. Anyone saying that drones should be nerfed... Come here and rat here for a month. Do not judge on stuff you have never experienced yourself. I've spent alot of time in the drone regions, and everything you said is true. Except for the fact that its not hard to get that Zydrine to empire in bulk, and because your getting so much Zydrine and can transport it all to Empire fast its brining down Zydrine prices on the whole. Saying that its hard to get it there isn't totally true, maybe it is for you doing it yourself, but for all the alliances it means shoving it into a few carriers and away they go to markets. This is happening at a fast rate, as much as 30 times per week. Thats why there is too much highends coming in from the drone regions and deflating their market value. Its true that the pve people, they are doing risk=reward but its easy to get those items to empire for most people. And your actions in drone regions are brininging down Mining (specifically as this threads about) in all other 0.0 areas. Please Help me, YOU could be next!
ssorion Caldari The First Foundation Stella Polar	Posted - 2007.05.25 11:21:00 - [68] Originally by: Adaris Except for the fact that its not hard to get that Zydrine to empire in bulk, and because your getting so much Zydrine and can transport it all to Empire fast its brining down Zydrine prices on the whole. Yeah, but carriers get ganked on their way to empire too. Not often, but with high-enough ratio to make it risked enough. Just some more numbers, 1 typical drone BS: 11 Glossy Compound 42 Lustering Alloy 29 Motley Compound 5 Opulent Compound 28 Plush Compound Zyd = 1828 + 422 = 588 ! Mega = 6 * 11 = 66 Morph = 2 * 5 = 10 Nocx = 2913 + 35 42 + 4 * 11 = 1891 Iso = 28 * 29 + 32 * 42 + 20 * 28 = 2716 Mex = 88 * 42 = 3696 Pyer = 120 * 28 = 3360 ! Trit = 0 ! Different BS's drop different amounts of alloys, but minerals ratio is same. Not hard to see why did it affect only zyd. Getting back onto risk~reward theme, hauling 100k zyd and 40m trit are different things, and while value of drone would stay same, it'd make things more balanced if some zyd would be shifted for trit/pyer. Sure if dropping zyd prices wasnt initial dev's idea behind drones.
UGWidowmaker Caldari Setenta Corp Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.25 11:30:00 - [69] seriously no one mines anymore.. not in 00 if you do hmmm..... the joy of killing rats and refine + salvadge the loot is much more profitable. crokite sucks atm. mega is hmm somewhat ok! maybe we need a new ore... as i sugested tons of times. one wich are used in invention maybe. plus morphite might go up again as invention starts to pay off. yet atm morphite sucks too. Sig removed, Email mods@ccpgames to find out why -Scyd
Adaris Gallente	Posted - 2007.05.25 11:32:00 - [70] It effected on Zydrine because people are chaining the good Drone spawns (i.e. the ones that drop all the Zydrine) lol. I know their is a huge risk factor involved carrier jumpingg etc and pve and mining but what I'm saying is like waht was mentioned in the OP and other places here... The drone regions are giving to much highend to market deflating the prices everywhere else. If The devs reduced the amount of highends being dropped from the rats alone the market would recover in all 0.0, thus making people want to come back out and experience what i believe to be some of the best features in the game. although it is risk=reward, in the drone regions its normal risk= unbalanced 'more' reward than anywhere else. Please Help me, YOU could be next!
UGWidowmaker Caldari Setenta Corp Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.25 11:32:00 - [71] Originally by: ssorion Originally by: Adaris Except for the fact that its not hard to get that Zydrine to empire in bulk, and because your getting so much Zydrine and can transport it all to Empire fast its brining down Zydrine prices on the whole. Yeah, but carriers get ganked on their way to empire too. Not often, but with high-enough ratio to make it risked enough. Just some more numbers, 1 typical drone BS: 11 Glossy Compound 42 Lustering Alloy 29 Motley Compound 5 Opulent Compound 28 Plush Compound Zyd = 1828 + 422 = 588 ! Mega = 6 * 11 = 66 Morph = 2 * 5 = 10 Nocx = 2913 + 35 42 + 4 * 11 = 1891 Iso = 28 * 29 + 32 * 42 + 20 * 28 = 2716 Mex = 88 * 42 = 3696 Pyer = 120 * 28 = 3360 ! Trit = 0 ! Different BS's drop different amounts of alloys, but minerals ratio is same. Not hard to see why did it affect only zyd. Getting back onto risk~reward theme, hauling 100k zyd and 40m trit are different things, and while value of drone would stay same, it'd make things more balanced if some zyd would be shifted for trit/pyer. Sure if dropping zyd prices wasnt initial dev's idea behind drones. lol if u get ganked in a carier you shouldent sit in one.. thats just plain stupid. make a netwerk. dock at stations. LOL ( pos jump ) Sig removed, Email mods@ccpgames to find out why -Scyd
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.05.25 11:38:00 - [72] Originally by: Sabian Treehugger Originally by: Lord WarATron I see lots of people wanting a "fix" to Zyd - I.E They want CCP to change something in some way so that the market value of Zyd is 4k, which is pretty much the market value of Megacyde. Yet not a single one of these people is asking for ccp to boost Trit, Pyer, Mex and so on, since those are overvalued. Are drones dropping too much? Dont know, but what I do know is that NPCers working on drones make a decent return for the same for time involved (i.e killing rat, picking up cargo, transporting it, refining loss etc etc). Insted of being a simple case of kill rat, check wallet, there is more involvement in the drones, more risk (You could lose your entire profit from your ratting session if you get ganked - Get ganked ratting guristas and at least you keep the isk you made so far) The money is not your money till its in your wallet - I think that drones are fine because of the extra risks and hassels involved, as well as no guarentees of isk coming into your wallet for killing drones. But i dont see you ratting drones over here so stfu, you think it's fun always knowing what are you going to get or parking the battleship after every 2 belts to drop loot and do you think it's fair that a high-sec mission runner gets bounties while we don't. How about we trade places for a month, you rat in drone space while i rat in BOB space and see who is richer,happier,bored etc. CCP fanboys get a clue good intentions don't always give good results and might just take you to hell Erm, perhaps you may need to read my post. It was actually in favor of those who rat drones. Perhaps you saw the Bob ticker, rather than the contents of what was written. It is also a known medical condition that people reading bob posts without sufficent IQ, can cause servere cases of verbal Diahoria. I personally dont rat drones, but perhaps we should exchange places very soon. I can count the number of BS rats I have killed in the past three months with my fingers, but if you would like to form up a ratting party, I am currently 9-9 and look forward to see how we can be freinds moving forward. Please dont forget to insure your ship though. -- Billion Isk Mission
Maglorre	Posted - 2007.05.25 11:50:00 - [73] OK, since everyone is throwing figures around, here's mine. Using prices as follows Quote: Tritanium..........2.60 Pyerite............9.20 Mexallon..........27.50 Isogen............90.00 Nocxium..........200.00 Zydrine.........1150.00 Megacyte........4800.00 Morphite........4000.00 (Hate trying to format stuff for forums!) I'm coming up with the following value per cubic metre of ore Quote: Veldspar.........78.08 Jaspet...........78.30 Pyroxeres........82.45 Hemorphite.......91.09 Omber............98.53 Plagioclase.....106.53 Hedbergite......114.21 Gneiss..........116.33 Kernite.........118.75 Scordite........119.98 Dark Ochre......121.30 Spodumain.......168.78 Crokite.........207.38 Mercoxit........212.00 Bistot..........378.04 Arkonor.........559.40 These values are not taking into account any refining or tax losses so the true value of the 0.0 ores are probably a bit lower. Make of this what you will but I really don't think it's with the extra time and risk involved in getting into 0.0 to mine crokite and mercoxit these days.
Coran Roscai The Ordo Imperialis FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.25 11:53:00 - [74] There have been alot of good points made here today. Please leave political comments out of the discussion. I would agree that the Drone Regions are giving too much, and that if it was reduced then the market price would return high. As far as this argument about Zydrine is the same price as it was 2-3 years ago, you must understand that more people are playing, more production is happening and more demand is needed for the rarer ores. And that was the case 6 months ago when we had high prices for the high-end ores/minerals. Thats what was intended in my view. It makes sense and is closely resembling real life which is what this game is about when its trying to create a large futuristic world that is believable. I have not siad that I want Zydrine to be the same as Mega, I have mentioned (afaik) no figures at all in fact to suggest that. However, I have said that I expect the profits of mining Zydrine (in 0.0 for example) should outweigh the profits you could make mining in safe empire mining low-ends. The problem as has been pointed out is that the Drone regions are simply giving too much high-ends to the market and this is causing the problem. Devaluing low-sec and 0.0 for Industrialists is not the way to go if you want to have people out in those areas. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- I hope to provide the devs with a nice summary of all thats been said in this thread, both arguments for and against for them to view at the end of this thread (whenever it may happen). So please contribute to the discussion, what are your thoughts about the topic? Thanks /Coran ***** The problem with putting in your two cents, is that everybody really hates pennies.
ssorion Caldari The First Foundation Stella Polar	Posted - 2007.05.25 11:58:00 - [75] Originally by: Adaris It effected on Zydrine because people are chaining the good Drone spawns (i.e. the ones that drop all the Zydrine) lol. Yeah, but why would anyone chain frigs/cruisers when he can chain BS's and get higher ISK-per-hour ratio ? Its same as with any other type of rats, noone hunts small rats except for getting faction spawns. And since theres no faction spawns in drone regions... :P As i said, i do agree there is something wrong with the drones, but its definitely not the profit you get from them. Too much zyd, and not enough low-end minerals from drone hi-end alloys.
Adaris Gallente	Posted - 2007.05.25 12:04:00 - [76] Originally by: ssorion Originally by: Adaris It effected on Zydrine because people are chaining the good Drone spawns (i.e. the ones that drop all the Zydrine) lol. Yeah, but why would anyone chain frigs/cruisers when he can chain BS's and get higher ISK-per-hour ratio ? Its same as with any other type of rats, noone hunts small rats except for getting faction spawns. And since theres no faction spawns in drone regions... :P As i said, i do agree there is something wrong with the drones, but its definitely not the profit you get from them. Too much zyd, and not enough low-end minerals from drone hi-end alloys. yes Please Help me, YOU could be next!
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.05.25 13:13:00 - [77] Originally by: Coran Roscai Originally by: Menkaure What the hell? People... you only want a "fix" to the highend prices because ure used to large prices, right? Well Zydrine increased from its current level up to whatever extortionate price it is now, years ago. Current price is closer to dev's intention than anything in the past 2.5 years. Zydrine (2nd rarest) being virtually same price as Mega (rarest) was fsking stupid. And besides, maybe if every single person thought that mining highends wasn't worth it then they'd just stop... and the price would increase back to "normal." The market is what we make it. But production is up alot more than what is was 2.5 years ago, so sense would suggest that the rare minerals should be even 1)rarer (depends) or 2) more expensive...so asking that they revert to a higher price is only fair considering the effort needed to get them if you mine conventionally unlike if you were ratting in drone regions and get them dropped. Not really. Production has increased, but so have increased the number of people mining and reprocessing, the average skill has become better and the struments more fficents (barges and exumers, freighter to move the minerals, more researched BPO). I don't know where I have found that number of 40 million/hour mining in high sec, but that isn't what the individual get. Maybe a small mining operation. Ad that if you find the asteroids. In high sec the belts have small asteroids, so it is easy to stripmine a whole system, and often there isn't enough ore in a roid for 2 cycles of the stripminer, so even mining the same kind of ore the yeld is less. This don't mean that there isn't a problem with the realtively low returns in 0.0, but speaking like people mining in high sec was wallowing in isk will not help.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.05.25 13:14:00 - [78] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 25/05/2007 13:16:54 Originally by: Sabian Treehugger "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" I rat rouge drones for a living and i hate it and so does everyone else especcialy the miners. CCP wanted to lower inflation so no bounty from drones just mins which in turn creates huge deflation. CCP if you want to reduce inflation than nerf the high-sec mission runners by giving more loot and less bounty . I risk a t2 fitted battleship everytime i go to a belt but a high-sec mission runner gets loads of bounties "risking" some faction fitted faction ship. What do you all think ,who has more right to a bounty someone in 0.0 or someone in 1.0. Read the blogs, that is in for Revelation 2. And don't cry on the return from the rats. In mission you don't commonly see multy million bounty BS and faction drops. From most of the post of people ratting in 0.0 theyare so lazy to refuse to loot and salvage as something unworthy of them. Well almost 50% of the revenue of mission runners is the salvage.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.05.25 13:28:00 - [79] Originally by: ssorion Anyone saying that drones should be nerfed... Come here and rat here for a month. Do not judge on stuff you have never experienced yourself. People do not need to go there to try them out. Rogue Drones need to be nerfed because of the large and unwelcome impact they have had on the mineral markets (and by extension the mining profession). For all your complaints about the hassles of dealing with drones and getting the mins to market the EXACT same things can be said of mining in the same 0.0 belt. NPCs show to shoot miners so need dealing with. Your chance of getting ganked is worse when mining. Mining is loads more boring. Your hauler moving your ore back to station is boring and also a serious gank target. You have to refine everything. You have to haul the refined minerals back to market all before you've made a dime. So you have to have two characters working to make money instead of one ratting. Having to split the take severly nerfs the miners income so why even bother doing the far more boring job and not go rat instead? Both safer and more fun. You do not see a problem with that? My guess is low end minerals are as expensive as they are because missions in hi sec are so profitable. When you get Mission Rewards + Mission Bonus + Bounty + Loot + Salvage + LP Rewards why ever mine? So people don't by and large. The result is less supply thus higher prices. The whole thing is borked. Miners need their profession back and yeah, that probably means higher prices all around.
Hugh Ruka Caldari	Posted - 2007.05.25 14:02:00 - [80] Originally by: Venkul Mul Edited by: Venkul Mul on 25/05/2007 13:16:54 Originally by: Sabian Treehugger "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" I rat rouge drones for a living and i hate it and so does everyone else especcialy the miners. CCP wanted to lower inflation so no bounty from drones just mins which in turn creates huge deflation. CCP if you want to reduce inflation than nerf the high-sec mission runners by giving more loot and less bounty . I risk a t2 fitted battleship everytime i go to a belt but a high-sec mission runner gets loads of bounties "risking" some faction fitted faction ship. What do you all think ,who has more right to a bounty someone in 0.0 or someone in 1.0. Read the blogs, that is in for Revelation 2. And don't cry on the return from the rats. In mission you don't commonly see multy million bounty BS and faction drops. From most of the post of people ratting in 0.0 theyare so lazy to refuse to loot and salvage as something unworthy of them. Well almost 50% of the revenue of mission runners is the salvage. I think missions are generaly safe to loot and salvage after you have cleared the rats. In 0.0 there's good chance an enemy drops by in you system, so staying at the same place longer then absolutely necesary is not an option (like waiting for the salvager for 4-5 cycles to salvage a wreck). Same with loot. 50m3 large smartbombs are not an option to loot when you have a 400m3 cargo bay (usualy loaded with ammo and booster charges). Anyway I'd accept if CCP would shift the ore yields more to production. Battleships require crazy amounts of trit and pye. While I get mega and zydrine fast, I spend most of the time mining for trit, mye and mex to build a ship. That's the other side of the 0.0 mining coin. Originally by: JP Beauregard The experience with Exodus playtesting has scarred me for life. Those were bug-reports, not feature requests, you numbskulls....
Gabriel Blade	Posted - 2007.05.25 15:36:00 - [81] I'm a 10Million SP player whose has been in the same NPC corporation since joining the game. I've been jack of all trades solo player, but I'm thinking it's now high time to join a real corp and move out of high-sec space. The relative value of ores in 0.0 vs. high sec space has been discouraging me from doing this however. I've been mining scordite in a 0.9 system with my covetor and after doing the math I don't see how mining in 0.0 is really going to get me much more, or even as much, money once you take into account corp tax, 35% refining, pirates and the fact that the corp I have my eye on is in the north where there isn't any Arkanor. Having said that I'm probably going to join a corp and move to 0.0 anyway, since mining is hardly the only thing I can/want to do, and I'm more doing this so I can be part of a team than anything else. I'm just concerned about my ability to replace lost ships while living in 0.0, which I expect will happen more often. I just wanted to point out that for me, a player thinking of making a move out of high-sec, the relative value of the ore's is discouraging me from moving out of high-sec.
Coran Roscai The Ordo Imperialis FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.25 15:48:00 - [82] Originally by: Gabriel Blade I just wanted to point out that for me, a player thinking of making a move out of high-sec, the relative value of the ore's is discouraging me from moving out of high-sec. This is the problem I am concerned about. People having this kind of attitude goes against the natural push of this game to get you to take risk to get better rewards, I'd hate to see people say empire can make me more isk than 0.0 (taking risk and tax and hauling into consideration as well). Mate, I hope you go to 0.0 anyways as even though you probably won't be mining there are alot of other cool things to experience, (but Devs, he should be able to mine...) ***** The problem with putting in your two cents, is that everybody really hates pennies.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.05.25 16:03:00 - [83] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 25/05/2007 16:03:20 Originally by: Hugh Ruka Originally by: Venkul Mul From most of the post of people ratting in 0.0 they are so lazy to refuse to loot and salvage as something unworthy of them. Well almost 50% of the revenue of mission runners is the salvage. I think missions are generaly safe to loot and salvage after you have cleared the rats. In 0.0 there's good chance an enemy drops by in you system, so staying at the same place longer then absolutely necesary is not an option (like waiting for the salvager for 4-5 cycles to salvage a wreck). Same with loot. 50m3 large smartbombs are not an option to loot when you have a 400m3 cargo bay (usualy loaded with ammo and booster charges). I am allowed to cite one of the classic used by 0.0 people when they lament mission runners? "EVE isn't a solo game" It is considerd normal that miners in low sec (and even high sec, as ore theft is rampant) need one or more haulers and one or more defender to do what they do, so why a ratter hasn't a wingman with a ship good for salvagin and looting like an Exequror? The risk stay the same, the reward increase.
Sabian Treehugger	Posted - 2007.05.25 18:21:00 - [84] Originally by: Lord WarATron Edited by: Lord WarATron on 25/05/2007 11:39:16 Originally by: Sabian Treehugger Originally by: Lord WarATron Erm, perhaps you may need to read my post. It was actually in favor of those who rat drones. Perhaps you saw the Bob ticker, rather than the contents of what was written. It is also a known medical condition that people reading bob posts without sufficent IQ, can cause servere cases of verbal Diahoria, which you appear to suffer from. I personally dont rat drones, but perhaps we should exchange places very soon. I can count the number of BS rats I have killed in the past three months with my fingers, but if you would like to form up a ratting party, I am currently in 9-9 and look forward to see how we can be freinds moving forward. Please dont forget to insure your ship though. Maybe you need to stop posting if you don't have a clue "I personally dont rat drones" couse you are not defending drone ratters you are defending a flawed system at the moment. "Please dont forget to insure your ship though." Any other "mature" arguments that bring BOB all the love.Nice e-peen btw. Ok now for short : - nerfing drones does not mean nerfing the income from drones it means we want a change the loot or add some ******* bounties it's 0.0 ffs - about bounties yes inflation is bad but huge deflation is worse and now even the miners agree with bounties for drones - drone ratting income sucks even though it's more work than any other 0.0 region - what happens to a corp in drone regions :miners don't mine there couse mining there sucks they go back to empire,pve'ers don't rat couse ratting sucks they go back to lvl 4 mission running in empire (ftw!) and pvp'ers can't pvp because of no industrial backing so don't go to the drone regions you will lose members - fanboys stfu , CCP forgot to BALANCE THE GAME

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