Originally by: Pudgy d'Noob

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Originally by: Blacklight

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To be honest I'm more interested how CCP intend to deal with a particular element of the player base who think that just because their personal drama llama is on the loose it's then ok to spam these forums to the degree that they have to be taken down to deal with it.

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They could fire all of their customers I guess. But, it would make more sense to just ban you.....

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Originally by: Relaria Hossin

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Originally by: Cheng

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They were just regular players, enjoying EvE just like everyone else.
And at somepoint, in those 4 years of playing, some got to be devs and some got to be gm's.

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These players who got hired also were allowed to keep their player accounts. There's the real problem here and like I said, everything else is the symptom of this huge conflict of interest.

There is a reason no other company that runs a MMOG allows this to happen the way CCP does.

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Originally by: Death Kill

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Edited by: Death Kill on 27/05/2007 21:59:36

Originally by: Cheng

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That is exactly what happened with those few in BoB who have the MSN address of the few devs/gm's that are their friends.

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So basicaly you DONT see the conflict of intrest here? And I doubt anyone care about your lifestory, what people care about on the other hand is if people with POWER that mingle with normal players and LET THEM KNOW that they are DEVS or GM's.

That the DEVS or GM's want to play the game is fine, but they shouldnt reveal their identity for ethical reasons. And if a person becomes a dev or gm he/she should recycle their character and start a new one that no one knows about.

Quote:

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And do you all honestly think that some induviduals in BoB are the ONLY players ingame that has devs/gm's on their contact list on MSN? - Grow up. *EDIT,ADDED*

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You b0bbies really give this your best dont you? so far, your entire alliance has tried to sweep this under the carpet. You want to make this a bob vs goon thing, when its really a case of pathetic cheaters vs the entire community.

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Originally by: Flaming Lemming

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Originally by: Cheng

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Originally by: Relaria Hossin

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Originally by: Cheng

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They were just regular players, enjoying EvE just like everyone else.
And at somepoint, in those 4 years of playing, some got to be devs and some got to be gm's.

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These players who got hired also were allowed to keep their player accounts. There's the real problem here and like I said, everything else is the symptom of this huge conflict of interest.

There is a reason no other company that runs a MMOG allows this to happen the way CCP does.

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Yes they are allowed to keep their accounts and they should be able to. Why is it a conflict of interest? - Those who fail are those devs/gm's who reveal their identity. So is that BoB's fault? - No.

And what if some revealed their identity to players they trust. - Tbh I don't care... I don't care if someone in Goons, RAZOR etc. have dev/gm's friends on their contact list, it's their friends and they shouldn't be punished only for being true friends.

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You don't get it do you? That is against CCPs rules.

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Originally by: Jonas Vance

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Originally by: Cheng

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If the dev/gm's reveals something about the game, then it's the dev/gm's fault. Not the person that got to know the information.

You need to start widening your perspective, nobody in BoB (except from t20) has cheated. NOBODY afik.
We have been branded cheaters just because of one mans act.

Like I said before, grow up.

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There's scant proof either way beyond the T20 events other than what your own members have admitted to (Ie. Dianabolic). I'm glad you add that afaik at the end because it seems that many people in your alliance have no clue what others are doing.

Although it has not been proven yet, raising an in-game issue through MSN by a regular player is not fair play (The adm whateverhisnameis guy issue). All in-game matters should be resolved through the petition system, not by lo
gging into ISD's IRC channel and freaking out over it.

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Originally by: Cheng

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Can you show me proofs of someone else that is in BoB or was in BoB, cheated?

I'm asking for proofs... Not speculations. If you can't give me hard proofs, then don't bother answering. It will only make you look bad.

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What, Dianabolic openly admitting it on page 12 doesn't do it for you?

Liang

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Originally by: Rikeka

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Originally by: Cheng

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Originally by: Jonas Vance

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Originally by: Cheng

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If the dev/gm's reveals something about the game, then it's the dev/gm's fault. Not the person that got to know the information.

You need to start widening your perspective, nobody in BoB (except from t20) has cheated. NOBODY afik.
We have been branded cheaters just because of one mans act.

Like I said before, grow up.

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There's scant proof either way beyond the T20 events other than what your own members have admitted to (Ie. Dianabolic). I'm glad you add that afaik at the end because it seems that many people in your alliance have no clue what others are doing.

Although it has not been proven yet, raising an in-game issue through MSN by a regular player is not fair play (The adm whateverhisnameis guy issue). All in-game matters should be resolved through the petition system, not by lo
gging into ISD's IRC channel and freaking out over it.

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Can you show me proofs of someone else that is in BoB or was in BoB, cheated?

I'm asking for proofs... Not speculations. If you can't give me hard proofs, then don't bother answering. It will only make you look bad.

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T20.

But you previously said you did not cared. So what`s the point? You also said that you would only care if someone would use a friendly GM to grief you... So, of course, you won`t care. As that won`t happen to you.

A bit over the head, nor I take sides in all this. I know all this too comes with the EvE War turf. As I have no sides there, I don`t care if BoB is truly guilty or not... as much as anyone else would care (not trying second-mean something, I truly mean I don`t care: EvE is just a game)

Aside of that, I do hate special priviledges.

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Originally by: Jonas Vance

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Edited by: Jonas Vance on 28/05/2007 03:02:10

Originally by: Cheng

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Can you show me proofs of someone else that is in BoB or was in BoB, cheated?

I'm asking for proofs... Not speculations. If you can't give me hard proofs, then don't bother answering. It will only make you look bad.

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I can turn it back on you and say, can you show me proof that BoB did NOT cheat? Can I remind you that there is still an ongoing investigation on whether one of your members did or did not abuse his powers of friendship with a dev.

As far as prior accounts of cheating, there has only been speculation and conclusions people have drawn from what Kugutsumen has posted.

I am not accusing you of cheating I am mearly stating that you cannot rightly say with certainty that BoB has never cheated, you can of course say that no one YOU know has cheated. But that is mearly semantics.

Now I can say with certainty a BoB member named Ishos Rerajan did cheat but you use him as an exception in your statement. Hmmmm. Why is he an exception, he was a BoB member, hired fair and square. Others in your alliance knew he was a dev as stated by internal communications. That in itself is cause for speculation of unscrupulous dealings by the leadership.

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Originally by: Jonas Vance

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Originally by: Cheng

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What about t20? - We know he cheated, I asked from PROOFS that SOMONE ELSE cheated.

Don't spin around what I have previously stated. I don't care if a dev/gm tells his friend that he is one. I just don't care.

What I care about is that people are stating bull**** about BoB and it's players.

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Read the wikipedia definition of cheating. Dianabolic admitted that he has an unfair advantage over other players seeing as he has several Dev's MSN information and that he talks to them regularly. That is PROOF that he has an advantage that many others don't.

Is that cheating? I feel it is, because I do not have the same priveleges or permissions. Whether he uses that unfair advantage for personal or in-game gain is merely speculative, but is not out of the realm of reason.

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Originally by: Astarte Nosferatu

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Originally by: Cheng

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The investigation has revealed that CCP SharkB. was infact doing his job. There was a petition even though Darkstar1 lied there was none. And the petition was not deleted. - So I wonder what else is false in that "Open Letter" ?

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It's always handy when the accused are also the judges.

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Quote:

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If they are using any dodgy means to get an unfair advantage I would label them cheaters.

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Originally by: Dianabolic

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You do realise that, in a previous witch hunt, the fact that many of us speak to the devs / gm's / employees of CCP on a regular basis as friends is already common knoweldge?

And you're now complaining that we speak to these people, who are also our friends, about stuff in-game?

Do you lot REALLY think that the "top" people, Hillmar and Oveur etc, are party to all of this? Of course they're not, this is their cash cow.

Get over yourselves.

Ya'll complain when something doesn't go your way, but I don't hear any of you complaining when the conversations any of us have with the very same people lead to bugs being fixed, oh no, because that's a benefit RIGHT?

(not directed at you, nyphur, jsut the general idiocy that is prevalent in this thread).

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Originally by: Dianabolic

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We have a "special" line (if you want to call msn that) to our FRIENDS.

Even devs need friends, you know, they're not robots.

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Originally by: definition: cheating

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any behavior outside the rules intended to give an unfair advantage to one or more players.

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Originally by: Eve EULA

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You may not use your own or third-party software to modify any content appearing within the Game environment or change how the Game is played.

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Originally by: Conflict of Interest, definition

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A conflict between an individualÆs personal interest and his or her public duty. This can exist whether or not money is involved, and whether the conflict is actual or only perceived.

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A) Dianabolic directly admits to speaking to CCP GM's and Devs about in-game matters via a behavior outside the rules (MSN)
B) Dianabolic goes on to say that its ok, because he's been playing the game for four years.
C) Dianabolic directly admits to not using the petition system to get bugs fixed.
D) Dianabolic outs himself and other BOB/Alliance members as also speaking with CCP via an outside of the rules mechanism.
E) Even only information will change the way the game is played. Therefore, any information given via a 3rd party (outside the rules) is a breach of section 7.2 of the Eve EULA
F) Anytime a game's developers speak to parties about that game via personal communication (like MSN to their friends), it is a conflict of interest. In most places, the only proper behavior when queried about privileged information is to refer them to the appropriate source of information (a petition, or the Eve-O forums, or one of the many CCP email addresses, in this case).
G) The current allegations are that MSN was used as a primary means of communication with CCP (over petitioning, like the rest of us mere mortals)*

I'd call issues A-F open and shut (by admission) of cheating. G will be investigated by CCP. The rest? He openly admits it.

Liang

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Originally by: Cheng

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As I've stated before, I don't care if someone has a dev/gm friend on his contact list. They are friends. Do you know what that is?

And plus, how is it a advantige that he has some dev on his msn list? - I'd say it's a advantige to have someone who trusts you enough to even tell you that he is a dev.

This is not proof of any ingame cheating.

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WTF man? You don't see how someone having the ability to bypass the petition process is cheating? How about if he talks about a bug that's affecting everyone, and he gets fixed first?

Even not going into the infinite possibilities for even unintentional cheating (by gathering information about Eve or future patches that otherwise cannot be gotten), bypassing the petition system by directly contacting a Dev/GM is 100% most assuredly cheating.

How is that not cheating?

Liang

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Originally by: Krumpit

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Originally by: Cheng

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Edited by: Cheng on 28/05/2007 03:32:19

Originally by: Astarte Nosferatu

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Originally by: Cheng

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The investigation has revealed that CCP SharkB. was infact doing his job. There was a petition even though Darkstar1 lied there was none. And the petition was not deleted. - So I wonder what else is false in that "Open Letter" ?

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It's always handy when the accused are also the judges.

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Don't trust the IA, then stfu and leave the game. Why are you talking here like you care when you don't trust the IA ? You are not helping anyone..

*OFF TOPIC * Btw, aren't you the one who got pwnd by Molle? *OFF TOPIC *

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It's quite simple really.

"Once bitten, twice shy"

You weren't bitten once yet, T20 was in your alliance. So you don't care, as you continually say.

Everyone else was bitten.

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Originally by: Jonas Vance

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Originally by: Cheng

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As I've stated before, I don't care if someone has a dev/gm friend on his contact list. They are friends. Do you know what that is?

And plus, how is it a advantige that he has some dev on his msn list? - I'd say it's a advantige to have someone who trusts you enough to even tell you that he is a dev.

This is not proof of any ingame cheating.

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Again, having a dev on MSN doesn't prove you have cheated. But it certainly would be easy to do it having the means now would it.

It's like playing a casino in which you are friends with the dealer. If you walk out every day with a pile of money people would probably get suspicious. The fact that you were good friends with the dealer doesn't prove he helped you cheat. But it sure wouldn't make the other patrons happy if they found out that he did help you cheat.

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Originally by: Krumpit

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Originally by: Cheng

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I do care becoz he cheated... - And it did affect me. First I got a little dissappointed. But I got over it. So should the rest of EvE.

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Circular argument.

You only care because he was found out. If he wasn't found out, you wouldn't care.

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Quote:

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Your naievite is touching, the rest of us aren't so trusting, because, oh yeah, once bitten...

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Originally by: Krumpit

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Originally by: Cheng

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Quote:

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Your naievite is touching, the rest of us aren't so trusting, because, oh yeah, once bitten...

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So I'm naive because I tend to trust people? - People should trust one another more often, the world would be a much better place.

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No, - the world would be a worse place if people trusted cheats, knowing that they were cheats.

It would be called negligence.

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Originally by: Etho Demerzel

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Originally by: Cheng

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Quote:

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Your naievite is touching, the rest of us aren't so trusting, because, oh yeah, once bitten...

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So I'm naive because I tend to trust people? - People should trust one another more often, the world would be a much better place.

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You are naive because you trust blindly in people who commited and infration, when they say that although they have the means to easily do this again they won't.

It is the same naivety someone would show in contracting a bank robber to be cash dealer in the bank. Or a falsary to be CEO of his firm.

I wouldn't find weird if your corp and allaince leaders are gaining lots of money selling ISK. And it wouldn't surprise me either if their CCP's "friends" are getting part of this money.

Everything said in this thread is very difficult to be proven, but money is easy to follow. And if it is indeed happening, if employees from CCP are using their position to do this with the help of some players, that would be a criminal infraction, not a mere EULA violation. And as I said that is much easier to find out...

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