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Oni Waban Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2008.07.28 22:20:00 - [181] Originally by: Ricdics there will also be less people willing to trust that a bank can exist in Eve if this results in a loss. After the god knows how long it'll take to make back the 4 bill I have invested, I shall be in no hurry to re-invest. Ricdics is right, this is a sad turn of events for the whole community. The only people who will benefit from this, are the isk sellers. So a double blow for the community then. CCP, we really really need a structured market!
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2008.07.30 03:47:00 - [182] I have heard two reports from inside Bruce. 1. Fury has lost a high percentage of assets that were used as collateral on loans via theft, amounts unknown but I heard ships/BPO's/minerals. 2. Fury can't access a large number of remaining assets (saleable items/assets) due to locations of stations, and entry rights in former alliance locations. 3. Confirmed loss of MS will require a write down. Reliably informed that only liquid ISK and loan book held by Fury would be still available in the business. It would be unclear if this money would go to HIA's, bond holders or shareholders. Either way I doubt the shares/bonds will have much value. Some up to date info would be nice.
Rho'varo Diversified Operational Services	Posted - 2008.07.30 04:40:00 - [183] Thanks for sharing this scoop, cosmoray. Originally by: cosmoray 1. Fury has lost a high percentage of assets that were used as collateral on loans via theft, amounts unknown but I heard ships/BPO's/minerals. 2. Fury can't access a large number of remaining assets (saleable items/assets) due to locations of stations, and entry rights in former alliance locations. 3. Confirmed loss of MS will require a write down. 1. Even if the entire "Receivables"(i.e., collateral) line item is 100% written off, that is a relatively small fraction of the operation's assets, and enough remains to cover all deposits (Current and HIA) shown in the 2008-05-21 reports. 2. Not being able to access assets now at least leaves open the possibility that they may be brought into play in the future. 3. Comparing the "Ship/Major BPOs" line item from 2008-05-05 and 2008-05-21, it appears that the loss of a Fury Holdings Nyx, as mentioned by Ambo, before 2008-05-21, did not merit a writedown. I'm not sure if that's the mothership to which you're referring. Originally by: cosmoray Reliably informed that only liquid ISK and loan book held by Fury would be still available in the business. It would be unclear if this money would go to HIA's, bond holders or shareholders. Either way I doubt the shares/bonds will have much value. Well, I'm a Fury Bank Current Account depositor, so take what I say with a grain of salt, but if we look to what might happen when a bank goes belly up in the real world (roughly put), (i) depositors would almost certainly get their ISK back (either from the bank's trustee in bankruptcy or from deposit insurance), (ii) then bond and other debt holders would get their ISK back if any remains and then, finally, the shareholders get any residual ISK. Of course, there's no bank deposit insurer in EVE, which means both that (i) no deposit insurer will help the receiver pay out to depositors but also that (ii) the Bank wasn't paying deposit insurance premiums all along. There's also no EVE "law" to govern the precedence of claims. Features & Ideas: Winding Up Learning Skills
Ricdics Corporate Placement Holding	Posted - 2008.07.30 04:45:00 - [184] Interesting to note, FL used to somewhat question EBANK over splitting securities/assets up amongst multiple parties as it was considered there could be more chance of scam. My question would be, after FL pushed this point many times, why did anyone else have access to FuryBank assets? As far as I was aware becoming a depositor in Fury meant putting your trust into FL and no-one else. I never saw any other Fury employee's or claims anyone else had any form of access to assets/financials. If this theft really has occured then FL has hypocritically attacked EBANK whilst doing some of the same things he criticized us for. Having said that, maybe there was no theft in the first place in which case this post would be invalid.
Professor Leech Transmetropolitan	Posted - 2008.07.30 04:52:00 - [185] I know that Bruce were hit with an evacuation scam. There may have been assets that they were trying to get shifted out of Bruce space and into npc stations. I can only speculate as to what happend but it's a possible scenario given what happend with Bruce. Originally by: Crawe DeRaven this thread is obviously going places
Ambo Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.07.30 07:49:00 - [186] This is all just guesswork. Unless FL tells us what actually happened, we probably arn't ever going to know the details and it seems that he's fallen totally silent. My advice is to consider any deposits or shares in Fury as written off and get on with other things. I really wish FL would at least let us know what happened but it seems that is not going to be the case. -------------------------------------- Trader? Investor? Just want to track your finances? Check out EMMA
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.07.30 09:00:00 - [187] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 30/07/2008 09:03:20 Originally by: Ambo This is all just guesswork. Unless FL tells us what actually happened, we probably arn't ever going to know the details and it seems that he's fallen totally silent. My advice is to consider any deposits or shares in Fury as written off and get on with other things. I really wish FL would at least let us know what happened but it seems that is not going to be the case. Oh come on Ambo, erforsche deine Gefnhle! hahah The guy go enough of Eve, of the compulsion to deliver/be praised and all this trust and respect crap you people push on, he won't be coming back. He probably finds RL to be more rewarding and I don't blame him. Motherships
Ambo Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.07.30 09:17:00 - [188] Originally by: YouGotRipped Edited by: YouGotRipped on 30/07/2008 09:06:38 Originally by: Ambo This is all just guesswork. Unless FL tells us what actually happened, we probably arn't ever going to know the details and it seems that he's fallen totally silent. My advice is to consider any deposits or shares in Fury as written off and get on with other things. I really wish FL would at least let us know what happened but it seems that is not going to be the case. Oh come on Ambo, erforsche deine Gefnhle! hahah The guy got enough of Eve, of the compulsion to deliver/be praised and all this trust and respect crap you people push on, he won't be coming back. He probably finds RL to be more rewarding and I don't blame him. I agree, however, I'm simply wanting him to post here letting us know what's happened. I don't expect him to work himself to the bone to get everyone's cash back if BRUCE has left Fury Bank with almost zero assets. However, I do think that his lack of communication shows a lack of respect. It costs nothing but a few minutes of time to come on here and let people know what happened. I would be suprised if anyone genuinely found Eve more rewarding than real life. -------------------------------------- Trader? Investor? Just want to track your finances? Check out EMMA
Sofitia Mourtos Viper Intel Squad Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2008.07.30 11:15:00 - [189] Originally by: Ambo I agree, however, I'm simply wanting him to post here letting us know what's happened. ... It costs nothing but a few minutes of time to come on here and let people know what happened. Consider the fact that if he took some time off due to burnout/misfortune/summer/whatever, then maybe his accounts expired. I think that many would not reactivate accounts for a game they have no intention of playing again, just to let people know that they left. ---------------------------------------- WTB: Guardian BPO
Elisa Day Eternity INC. Project Alice.	Posted - 2008.07.30 14:35:00 - [190] Originally by: cosmoray I have heard two reports from inside Bruce. 1. Fury has lost a high percentage of assets that were used as collateral on loans via theft, amounts unknown but I heard ships/BPO's/minerals. 2. Fury can't access a large number of remaining assets (saleable items/assets) due to locations of stations, and entry rights in former alliance locations. 3. Confirmed loss of MS will require a write down. Reliably informed that only liquid ISK and loan book held by Fury would be still available in the business. It would be unclear if this money would go to HIA's, bond holders or shareholders. Either way I doubt the shares/bonds will have much value. Some up to date info would be nice. I have no reports from "inside bruce", since they don't exist anymore, but I know the guy and flew with him many times (including the time he lost that nyx), and for 1. there was noone else with access, 2. have you tried getting stuff stuck in stations? Doesn't work very well, you can sell from space with an alt, and 3. Nope, it was a personal loss. Just my observations/speculations as I have absolutely no information nor have I talked to him in months, but I'm sure your sources are about as good as mine.
Salisuka Caldari 98.4	Posted - 2008.07.30 15:02:00 - [191] Originally by: Sofitia Mourtos Originally by: Ambo I agree, however, I'm simply wanting him to post here letting us know what's happened. ... It costs nothing but a few minutes of time to come on here and let people know what happened. Consider the fact that if he took some time off due to burnout/misfortune/summer/whatever, then maybe his accounts expired. I think that many would not reactivate accounts for a game they have no intention of playing again, just to let people know that they left. I think FL has enough isk to buy a GTC and just transfer assets to someone else, EBANK, Ray, Ambo ... whoever so that they can sell them and get us our isk back.
Silver Night Caldari Naqam	Posted - 2008.07.31 05:06:00 - [192] I've got a few billion in an HIA, and at this point I'm writing it off. Remember: For the pessimist, all surprises are pleasant ones. With any luck if it is burnout, FL will come back some day in the future and liquidate and we will all have a pleasant surprise. Otherwise, well, this is one of the risks, and this was an awfully high return investment - which is one reason I personally was willing to bet so much on a single individual with an excellent reputation. -------------- The Clown Man. GLS Mr. State Caldari Patriot. Sansha's Nation Supporter
Ulstan Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.08.02 01:50:00 - [193] Edited by: Ulstan on 02/08/2008 01:52:28 At this point I think we simply have to accept it as lost, hope FL returns someday after his interest in EVE revives, and sends some of the ISK back. Though, two incredibly respected IPO's just...stopping...like this does deal a heavy blow to the confidence in Eve's player driven investment opportunities. Edit - also, mark me down as a convert to the EBANK scheme of things, where one persons sudden disappearance or loss of interest in the game doesn't spell doom for the whole enterprise. The annoying thing is that in neither of these cases have the investors been snookered by scams, just that the IPO manager (apparently) grew tired of EVE and decided to just move on (with varying degrees of clean up beforehand)
Rho'varo Diversified Operational Services	Posted - 2008.08.02 03:31:00 - [194] An appropriate cartoon in this week's New Yorker. Features & Ideas: Winding Up Learning Skills
Kwint Sommer Caldari XERCORE	Posted - 2008.08.02 04:21:00 - [195] Originally by: Rho'varo An appropriate cartoon in this week's New Yorker. It would be funny if it weren't so true. Purchasing and Shipping Moon Minerals
Ambo Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.08.02 09:46:00 - [196] lol, nice link -------------------------------------- Trader? Investor? Just want to track your finances? Check out EMMA
Otto Phalanx Caldari No Trademark Obsidian Empire	Posted - 2008.08.03 22:18:00 - [197] Originally by: Elisa Day Originally by: cosmoray I have heard two reports from inside Bruce. 1. Fury has lost a high percentage of assets that were used as collateral on loans via theft, amounts unknown but I heard ships/BPO's/minerals. 2. Fury can't access a large number of remaining assets (saleable items/assets) due to locations of stations, and entry rights in former alliance locations. 3. Confirmed loss of MS will require a write down. Reliably informed that only liquid ISK and loan book held by Fury would be still available in the business. It would be unclear if this money would go to HIA's, bond holders or shareholders. Either way I doubt the shares/bonds will have much value. Some up to date info would be nice. I have no reports from "inside bruce", since they don't exist anymore, but I know the guy and flew with him many times (including the time he lost that nyx), and for 1. there was noone else with access, 2. have you tried getting stuff stuck in stations? Doesn't work very well, you can sell from space with an alt, and 3. Nope, it was a personal loss. Just my observations/speculations as I have absolutely no information nor have I talked to him in months, but I'm sure your sources are about as good as mine. First rule of bullshitting: Get the ship type correct. It was a Aeon, not a nyx, and he flew solo with it all the way up until Huzzah killed it. There were only 2 engagments where he had support with him, one of which was the last 5 minutes before it popped. Also, I actually did know the guy, was a fairly easy to get along with and level headed. I doubt he would "scam" anyone, he more than likely just doesnt take the game as serious as the majority of eve does. From what I can tell, he played the game for the market, the only reason he flew a mothership was for logistics, nothing more. At this point I would write it off as a loss. Everyone knows full well the ammount of risk involved when they invest in a IPO within this game, so the investors are the only ones that can be blamed in the end, at least thats how ive always seen it.
Ricdics Corporate Placement Holding	Posted - 2008.08.03 22:43:00 - [198] From what I was told ingame by an old corpmate of his he was foolhardy, lost 2 or 3 motherships in a short period and just before he vanished he completed construction of a titan. This person also states FL's entire operation was made redundant as soon as Bruce crashed. His money was invested heavily into stocks in station orders, moon mining ops, etc. Anyway this is all hearsay and there was more from the log. The actual truth behind it I don't know, this info could be completely wrong. Anyone wanting the chatlogs pop me an evemail with your email addy
Andre Coeurl Gallente TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.08.04 17:33:00 - [199] I made a small investment into Fury Holdings because I wanted to try and learn something about the "market and investment" side of EVE while hopefully earn some ISk too, plus it was a BRUCE player's venture and the guy was generally considered an honest person. As it turns out, from the "average grunt" POV there's no real way to find a "public" investment that's trustable, and there's also ppl who would consider this kind of occurrence as normal, condoning it variously by saying "it's a game" etc, or "it's a risky investment after all" etc. While those phrases can be true per se, they are not once a player offers an investment plan, and is therefore in charge with it. He's accountable with it, and is responsible to the stakeholders. The problem is, the player is a vanishing entity, and the investment can easily vanish with it as there's no possible way to attach it to a real person after all. In fact, the real person may have had any kind of misadventure, in-game or RL ones, therefore I am not going to say that he is always a scammer (and the same goes for FL, for I genuinely wish he's not OC), but to EVER have a chance to build a sound or at least a viable financial market in EVE there should be some measures to prevent this happenings. This is a big problem in EVE, being that a game which relies heavily on realism: that is the lack of any accountability at all for acts in game, being them financial ventures, commercial acts or plain corp asset management. But after all, I'm not here to just complain about it, because I'd like to see this game evolve and grow, so I have a proposal. My bottom line is that it would be relatively simple to implement some forms of automatic control to protect form this kind of happenings. I'll try to exemplify it talking about financial ventures. First of all, anybody launching a public investment offer should activate an in-game mechanism to manage shares and capitals (let's call it "EVE-Wealth-Engine or EwE ), attached to his character (whose name and characteristics will be locked as long as the venture is running). This mechanism would manage instantaneous money transfer to all those who want to withdraw their shares, and it would block any wallet or assets move the moment one of the shareholders would ask for shares withdrawal and not be met in cash. To be sure that the manager won't just empty the assets hangars while keeping some ISK in the wallets to manage cashflow before bailing out, EWE would block enough assets to balance the total shares value (or it could be a percentage of it, let's say 60%) when ISk in wallets wouldn't cover for it. A slightly different management could be done for different investment types, where a higher or lower risk/reward ratio is expected, so EWE could be covering them from say 20% to 80%... EWE wouldn't be 100% risk proof, but it would give a clear risk/reward management, and on the other hand a player who would try to scam would find his char blocked with a good deal of ISk & assets attached to it. He then could negotiate a partial unblock by players suspending their withdrawal request, so EWE would free the account's trading abilities and the player could put ISk back into coffers to restart business, or else after a given time (could be 3 months) EWE would sell assets to CCP/NPC corps at median market value so there would be no market impact and the resulting ISk would be automatically divided among shareholders. It's not a complicated thing (it surely can be worked out, it's just a starting proposal OC), and similar engines could be created to manage large commercial ventures or assets access rights in corps/alliances. This IMO would allow EVE to become a much better game, and would greatly help to create a more rewarding market experience for every honest pilot around New Eden (yes I believe that such a thing exists) --- --- ---
Ambo Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.08.04 19:33:00 - [200] CCP have stated they won't be implementing any sort of regulatory framework. -------------------------------------- Trader? Investor? Just want to track your finances? Check out EMMA
Castor Dei Delusions 0f Grandeur G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.08.05 07:57:00 - [201] Originally by: Otto Phalanx First rule of bullshitting: Get the ship type correct. It was a Aeon, not a nyx, and he flew solo with it all the way up until Huzzah killed it. There were only 2 engagments where he had support with him, one of which was the last 5 minutes before it popped. Also, I actually did know the guy, was a fairly easy to get along with and level headed. I doubt he would "scam" anyone, he more than likely just doesnt take the game as serious as the majority of eve does. From what I can tell, he played the game for the market, the only reason he flew a mothership was for logistics, nothing more. First rule of smacktalking in public...know your facts. He lost an Aeon in Syndicate to Huzzah and friends then a Nyx on another character in Fountain to PL. He got as much pew as possible in the motherships; often risking them heavily in an effort just to get into a rumble. As for his status. I was talking to him via SMS right up to my previous post at which point he was still coming back from out of town business. Sadly he has stopped responding via phone and other points of contact have been unable to verify his wellbeing. I've known him for a very long time and would vouch to the nth degree that he would never scam. The breakup of BRUCE hurt Fhold but he already had action plans in place to minimise the effect on profitibility. No assets were caught anywhere as he's an astute man and had pretty much everything prepared for such an event. So, basically, all the Fhold naysayers are incorrect as this was an eventuality he was fully prepared for. My concern is for his wellbeing. I also have 12 billion ISK tied up with Fury Bank FYI.
Andre Coeurl Gallente TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.08.05 09:14:00 - [202] Originally by: Ambo CCP have stated they won't be implementing any sort of regulatory framework. I didn't know this, IMO it's a real pity since this way there will never be a chance for a viable financial market in-game. In fact, I wonder why CCP doesn't realize the need for better ISk, commerce and assets management tools... this would make the game so much better for players, and I personally would view an improvement like this as important for game experience as the Ambulation Project, to say the least. On a side note, I wish FL is well and in all cases I'd prefer this to be a scam than him being ill! --- --- ---
Mr Horizontal Gallente KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.05 09:30:00 - [203] Originally by: Andre Coeurl Originally by: Ambo CCP have stated they won't be implementing any sort of regulatory framework. I didn't know this, IMO it's a real pity since this way there will never be a chance for a viable financial market in-game. In fact, I wonder why CCP doesn't realize the need for better ISk, commerce and assets management tools... this would make the game so much better for players, and I personally would view an improvement like this as important for game experience as the Ambulation Project, to say the least. Hence our goal at EBANK. Provide a rich set of financial services tools, facilities and applications to enhance and evolve ISK. Director \| www.eve-bank.net
General Lilost	Posted - 2008.08.05 11:26:00 - [204] For what it's worth, I much prefer the primarily trust-based systems and think regulation goes against the spirit of Eve. Once you start adding regulation, it's basically never ending as it all comes back to trust in the end (who watches the watchers and all that). That having been said, improved mechanisms for the banking/investment industry (e.g. something like the overhaul of the old escrow system) would definitely be welcome and have been discussed in detail elsewhere. FL earned his trust over a long time and a lot of work, and if he came back with a plan to recover I would listen to it as I think many others would as well. As Castor said, I just hope he is fine.
Otto Phalanx Caldari No Trademark Obsidian Empire	Posted - 2008.08.06 15:14:00 - [205] Originally by: Castor Dei Originally by: Otto Phalanx First rule of bullshitting: Get the ship type correct. It was a Aeon, not a nyx, and he flew solo with it all the way up until Huzzah killed it. There were only 2 engagments where he had support with him, one of which was the last 5 minutes before it popped. Also, I actually did know the guy, was a fairly easy to get along with and level headed. I doubt he would "scam" anyone, he more than likely just doesnt take the game as serious as the majority of eve does. From what I can tell, he played the game for the market, the only reason he flew a mothership was for logistics, nothing more. First rule of smacktalking in public...know your facts. He lost an Aeon in Syndicate to Huzzah and friends then a Nyx on another character in Fountain to PL. He got as much pew as possible in the motherships; often risking them heavily in an effort just to get into a rumble. As for his status. I was talking to him via SMS right up to my previous post at which point he was still coming back from out of town business. Sadly he has stopped responding via phone and other points of contact have been unable to verify his wellbeing. I've known him for a very long time and would vouch to the nth degree that he would never scam. The breakup of BRUCE hurt Fhold but he already had action plans in place to minimise the effect on profitibility. No assets were caught anywhere as he's an astute man and had pretty much everything prepared for such an event. So, basically, all the Fhold naysayers are incorrect as this was an eventuality he was fully prepared for. My concern is for his wellbeing. I also have 12 billion ISK tied up with Fury Bank FYI. heh... come on now ... i didnt even TRY that time and you let me troll you =/ I swear ... you bruclings will never learn. as for the ipo thing, it was a scam from the beginning! yar!
Katrina Maskim'Xul	Posted - 2008.08.18 20:38:00 - [206] Any updates on the status of Zim? Or are we all still in the dark?
Mr Horizontal Gallente KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.18 21:26:00 - [207] Originally by: Katrina Maskim'Xul Any updates on the status of Zim? Or are we all still in the dark? Lights are still out at Fury HQ
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.08.18 22:54:00 - [208] Originally by: Mr Horizontal Originally by: Katrina Maskim'Xul Any updates on the status of Zim? Or are we all still in the dark? Lights are still out at Fury HQ And who's going to pay the energy bill? I think Ebank will cover for that as they insist on burying FL with all the humiliation appropriate to a fierce competitor. Pathetic values and pathetic people.
Ricdics Corporate Placement Holding	Posted - 2008.08.19 01:19:00 - [209] Actually Horizontal was always a Furybank supporter and I dare say he may have lost isk if Furybank goes under. Grow up YGR.
Kushion Anti Sweden Defense Force Virtue of Selfishness	Posted - 2008.08.19 05:08:00 - [210] I've just recently discovered YGR's TOP SECRET plan for "UNIVERSIL DOMUNATSION" [sic] Quote: 1. Utilize incomparable wit & charm to alienate the entire community. It helps to spam a lot, be incoherent, and really insulting/clueless. 2. Obviously, there will be resistance. Search out the ringleaders - the most rational, intelligent, the most respected - and proceed to turn the community against them. The most efficient way to do this - obviously - is to post baseless accusations & insults so outrageous it strains the incredulity of even the most irrational members. The more juvenile ANGST and obvious bias you convey in every post, the more the community will drop their support of these obvious pretenders, and solidify their support of you. Step 3. ??? Step 4. Profit! Darn, guys. We might as well just quit now - there is no way we can possibly stand in the way of such a mastermind!

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