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Market Manipulation Experiment

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Princess Trinity Astro Tech N Trade	Posted - 2007.05.29 23:39:00 - [1] Edited by: Princess Trinity on 29/05/2007 23:38:37 I tried market manipulation on a very large scale today, I will let everyone know how it paid off tomorrow. I will say nothing else to make sure no one knows what I am talking about until everything is all set and done.
Odet Endgame.	Posted - 2007.05.29 23:46:00 - [2] k _______I podded a Dev and all I got was this lousy Implant_______ This podding has been brought to you by Odet, the only way to fry
Princess Trinity Astro Tech N Trade	Posted - 2007.05.29 23:49:00 - [3] trust me, tomorrows follow up will be worth it.
Dantae Montoya Forsaken Resistance	Posted - 2007.05.29 23:54:00 - [4] Market Manipulation in Eve? Thats just unheard of. Good luck with it and I hope much isk is made as long as its not at my expense
Caleb Ayrania Gallente TarNec	Posted - 2007.05.30 00:12:00 - [5] Looking forward to this.. :) Just hope its within the "legal" bounds of trade..
Auri Hella The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.05.30 00:57:00 - [6] Are you the one trying to double Eagle prices in Jita? Just noticed that, was a bit miffed as I was on a trip to get some new pew pew ships, and now someone is being an evil capitalist. Sigh.
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.05.30 04:58:00 - [7] Right.... How about you make a post when you've actually done something. We'd have thousands of posts if everyone said: "Mom, look at me, I'm gonna do something really cool. Hey mom, look at me... really... keep watching me mom. MOM! Watch this!" Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
SiJira	Posted - 2007.05.30 09:05:00 - [8] if it was you buying up all my kestrels in jita with 450 000 000 orders up instead then thank you very much i noticed no idiots were stupid enough to buy from you and some people didnt have to go with another ship and bought my orders when they were up ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
Princess Trinity Astro Tech N Trade	Posted - 2007.05.30 09:35:00 - [9] Originally by: SiJira if it was you buying up all my kestrels in jita with 450 000 000 orders up instead then thank you very much i noticed no idiots were stupid enough to buy from you and some people didnt have to go with another ship and bought my orders when they were up nope nothing to do with kestrels.
Cheyenne Shadowborn Caldari Citizens of E.A.R.T.H. E.A.R.T.H. Federation	Posted - 2007.05.30 10:31:00 - [10] Originally by: Princess Trinity I tried market manipulation on a very large scale today, I tried market manipulation on a small scale some day. Anyone in need of a batch of nanofiber I BPOs? Markets in Eve suck. Buy all the stuff and some NPC jumps in and offers more :( -- CCP: PLEASE fix the forum software - thanks.

Block Ukx	Posted - 2007.05.30 10:54:00 - [11] Originally by: Cheyenne Shadowborn ... Markets in Eve suck. Buy all the stuff and some NPC jumps in and offers more :( Very true! Only useful if you plan to export to other systems.
Erfnam Time Cube Syndicate Ghosts Syndicate	Posted - 2007.05.30 15:35:00 - [12] Originally by: Cheyenne Shadowborn Originally by: Princess Trinity I tried market manipulation on a very large scale today, I tried market manipulation on a small scale some day. Anyone in need of a batch of nanofiber I BPOs? Markets in Eve suck. Buy all the stuff and some NPC jumps in and offers more :( This is why infinite supply is a good and bad thing. If it were possible to remove basic BPOs and modules from players, than it would destroy the game. If it were possible, i'm certain people would do it. Sales: Capital Ships \| Covetors Delivered - Bulk/Package/BYOM
Caleb Ayrania Gallente TarNec	Posted - 2007.05.30 19:37:00 - [13] Honestly the point of npc supply is rather important.. It should not take that much to let npc supply dwindle over time.. If no players are buying the sellers should actually go away.. Thus the markets could slowly move into the hands of the playerbase. surely there should maybe be somewhere where you could still get these items, but they should be spread out and once players started trading at priceranges way to high the npc market could respawn. Thus you would give the players all the gaming, but would limit their abuse of monopolizing. Still looking forward to hearing what the manipulation thing was..
Princess Trinity Astro Tech N Trade	Posted - 2007.05.31 00:22:00 - [14] Edited by: Princess Trinity on 31/05/2007 00:22:40 Ok, this is what I did and it failed MISERABLY I noticed in the Forge there were some HACS and CS's in low supply but high demand. I bought up EVERY single EAGLE and ASTARTE and put them back at older prices. I was hoping peoples laziness but mainly lack of paying attention would lead them to buy out my supply and yield me a decent profit. Worst came to worst I figured I would resell and break even. Eagles at first I added about 50% and Astartes I added about 20% Up until this morning its was going slow but ok, 2 Eagles sold and 2 Astarte's/ The problem is more people noticed than I thought would. Buying a Eagle for 97 mil compared to 65 mil. Then competition started up, people started undercutting me and I did the same, this went on for a few hours until I realized I was going to take a loss. I did notice one thing , The high sell orders had a slight affect on the Buy orders. The buy orders went from 52 mil highest to 56 Mil highest. My worst case break even scenario didn't work well because of 4 factors. 1. I paid higher than usual for a few of the Ships. 2. There was a lack of buy orders for me to cash in. 3. Impatience- I needed more liquid ISK and I couldnt wait for them to resell at normal Price. 4. HUMAN ERROR- I was so damn busy frantically modifying Sell orders, I made a very costly Mistake, I also had maintenance in my house putting in a new air conditioner, and I was sweating badly so I wasn't 100% focused. I wanted to make the Eagles 69,000,000 Million isk each. I pressed accept not paying full attention. When my order didn't show up I knew right away I screwed up big time. I looked at my wallet to comfirm the damage done, there is was 6 Eagles sold to 3 different people for 69 ISK each. I lost about 1 Billion isk through this experiment through personal error and taking losses reselling. However I did learn some things. 1. One single person cannot Manipulate a Trade Hubs market, even for a short time. 2. Modifying a order doesn't have a confirm Box, I will pay more attention next time. 3. Think my investments though a bit more next time.
Caleb Ayrania Gallente TarNec	Posted - 2007.05.31 00:39:00 - [15] Sounds like a lesson learned rather roughly.. I do however think your patience or rather lack thereof is what made it impossible to complete your goal. To make serious manipulation to such a large market, and being a single person, you would need quite a bit more time to do so.. I am sure it is possible, but your selection of item might need to be a bit less noticable.. Its always taxing on funds when you want to manipulate a whole market.. better luck next time..
Nietzschean Minmatar The Obsidian	Posted - 2007.05.31 01:04:00 - [16] Hears the echoes of a litle green dude saying: Do or... It can be done Princess. But as you learned it doesnt really help jumping out and try to push in midflight. Gutsy experiment. But have to say that I wouldnt have expected it to go well, not even if you had your full concentration. you placed your bet, spun the wheel. And the house won yet again... But I tip my hat, for trying. N.
Proton Power Amarr Power Corrupts Tech Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.05.31 01:11:00 - [17] Originally by: Princess Trinity Edited by: Princess Trinity on 31/05/2007 00:22:40 Ok, this is what I did and it failed MISERABLY I noticed in the Forge there were some HACS and CS's in low supply but high demand. I bought up EVERY single EAGLE and ASTARTE and put them back at older prices. I was hoping peoples laziness but mainly lack of paying attention would lead them to buy out my supply and yield me a decent profit. Worst came to worst I figured I would resell and break even. Eagles at first I added about 50% and Astartes I added about 20% Up until this morning its was going slow but ok, 2 Eagles sold and 2 Astarte's/ The problem is more people noticed than I thought would. Buying a Eagle for 97 mil compared to 65 mil. Then competition started up, people started undercutting me and I did the same, this went on for a few hours until I realized I was going to take a loss. I did notice one thing , The high sell orders had a slight affect on the Buy orders. The buy orders went from 52 mil highest to 56 Mil highest. My worst case break even scenario didn't work well because of 4 factors. 1. I paid higher than usual for a few of the Ships. 2. There was a lack of buy orders for me to cash in. 3. Impatience- I needed more liquid ISK and I couldnt wait for them to resell at normal Price. 4. HUMAN ERROR- I was so damn busy frantically modifying Sell orders, I made a very costly Mistake, I also had maintenance in my house putting in a new air conditioner, and I was sweating badly so I wasn't 100% focused. I wanted to make the Eagles 69,000,000 Million isk each. I pressed accept not paying full attention. When my order didn't show up I knew right away I screwed up big time. I looked at my wallet to comfirm the damage done, there is was 6 Eagles sold to 3 different people for 69 ISK each. I lost about 1 Billion isk through this experiment through personal error and taking losses reselling. However I did learn some things. 1. One single person cannot Manipulate a Trade Hubs market, even for a short time. 2. Modifying a order doesn't have a confirm Box, I will pay more attention next time. 3. Think my investments though a bit more next time. First, Sorry to hear about your loss but would like to apply and give you some tips one what you learned from my experiences. 1. You can manipulate a hub, but you better have a LOT of time to sit in that hub and undercut over and over and over and over and I think you get the picture. Second you need a LOT of isk, expessially for something like HAC's. When playing with the market I also tried to play with teh buy orders. If you can raise the buy orders to past what you bought the original items at, you have an easy out. Again to do this you need to have a LOT of ISK so that you can stock up on a LOT of items. Basicly your trying to run the supply out so that with limited supply you can sell a lot easier, faster, and more isk. And then worse case fill the buy orders up and pull out. My experience thus far is you can make a lot of isk, but be prepared for a long haul. ----------------------------------------------- http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=439797Cli
Jacque Custeau Knights of the Minmatar Republic	Posted - 2007.05.31 01:44:00 - [18] So one thing I do to make sure I don't screw up sale order modifications is to minimize the modification window AFTER I put the new numbers in. When you click and restore the window, the client will insert the much needed comma's to help you verfiy the ammount. Also look at the amount of isk in red to make sure you are not making a catistrophic mistake. ------------------- 09:F9:11:02:9D:74:E3:5B:D8:41:56:C5:63:56:88:C0
Auri Hella The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.05.31 02:24:00 - [19] Aha. I was right then
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.05.31 02:36:00 - [20] "However I did learn some things. 1. One single person cannot Manipulate a Trade Hubs market, even for a short time. 2. Modifying a order doesn't have a confirm Box, I will pay more attention next time. 3. Think my investments though a bit more next time." So basically you learned things that were all common knowledge to any decent trader? Well done. 1 billion isk for something I would have told you for only 100 million isk. Let me know when you want some advice in the future... I'll only charge you 500 million and you can save the other 500 million, deal? Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained

Hexxx Minmatar	Posted - 2007.05.31 04:04:00 - [21] Gutsy. I'm trying some market manipulation myself, but I have a great deal of patience. So far, I'm still waiting. Better luck next time! Hexxx LLP - Business Consulting Services - IPO's, Business Plans, Share/Stock Pricing, and general Consulting.
Apple Blossom	Posted - 2007.05.31 04:05:00 - [22] Originally by: Princess Trinity I was sweating badly so I wasn't 100% focused. Unneeded detail. Some of us read this forum before lunch.
Investigador Caldari	Posted - 2007.05.31 05:09:00 - [23] Originally by: Jacque Custeau So one thing I do to make sure I don't screw up sale order modifications is to minimize the modification window AFTER I put the new numbers in. When you click and restore the window, the client will insert the much needed comma's to help you verfiy the ammount. Also look at the amount of isk in red to make sure you are not making a catistrophic mistake. Try pressing the TAB key after inserting the amount. This also works for the transferring money window, the contract window (when you insert the amount of isk you are asking for) and posibly on other places. It makes the focus move to the next field and forces the update of the isk field. (the TAB key is the tabulator key, you know, the one with the arrow pointing upwards that you use to change to the next field on a formulary)
Ricdic Caldari Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd Zzz	Posted - 2007.05.31 06:08:00 - [24] You can definetly corner the market if you know what you are doing The key factors in doing this, will be 1) Patience 2) Research Why you sold to buy orders is really beyond me. Better to keep on selling over a few days at reasonable prices to try and reduce your losses. This (as you have pointed out) is a very poor lack in patience, as well as your selling to those low orders. Research. You need to see the quantities of ships moving on a daily basis to determine the demand on the item. You also need to check the average price and stagger increases. ie, I buy 100 Eagles at 69m each. I immediately begin a resell at 75m each but only for say 6 units. I then move a few eagles to other systems in the region (say groups of 1-5) and sell them for approximately the same 75m or slightly higher The trick, is making the public think that this is the average value. If they see 20 units all for sale in the one station, with none other in whole region, they will usually click that the market has been bought out, and just fly to Jita. So, your orders all have similar but different pricing, you can even do some 0.01 isk undercuts on yourself to show the competition levels even more to the unsuspecting public. Now, you leave the items like that for 24-48 hours. After this period, you then check the market and find anyone undercutting you substantially (trying to get the 69 back), and buy them out if profits from sales at higher prices are sufficient. That is one way to lead the market in specific goods, but will only work in certain circumstances. Sick of the waits with empire research slots? Use mine!
Sales Merchant	Posted - 2007.05.31 09:01:00 - [25] I tried to control the moon material market a long time ago and lost over billion isk. I bought up all the composites, gases and materials in the major regions and put them back up everywhere for a good markup that would have netted me 8 billion based on the quatities I had. It was selling fine until about a week later when CCP increased the production of moon harvesters and the prices of the produce fell cataclysmicly. It hit me so hard I had to scramble to sell for what i could. Still to this day I believe it would have paid off given more time and that patch change not happening, but it was more my mistake for not keeping track of developer notes and forthcomming patch stuff planned for the pos's. I agree with the OP, you cannot manipulate the market alone, you can in a consortium but even then the risk is still dangerously high and all it takes is one major industrial corp to dump a ton of what you are selling for a fraction of the price and you're screwed. Playing the Market in EVE is volatile and a game of risk, i've made billions and ive lost billions.
Princess Trinity Astro Tech N Trade	Posted - 2007.05.31 11:18:00 - [26] @ Ricdic, I did actually try to make people think there was a average price. I put up in Niyabanien and Jita about 30 Ships into about 8 Sell Orders 4 at a time 7 at a time some 3's and mostly 1's and 2's Bout me being impatient, Yup I am extremely impatient, thats why I may stick to reselling. Also the reason I took the loss of quickselling, if I lets say had 100 Billion compared to 4 Billion, I could afford to keep that ISK Non Liquid But I left myself with almost mo liquid isk for more investing. I figured cashing in with a loss would be better than waiting a few days, I can make the isk back faster in the long run by working with liquid funds.
Feronia Gallente Magma Industries	Posted - 2007.05.31 15:16:00 - [27] You made a few vital mistakes: 1)Never go against the market trend. If the market history shows a downward graph, it means supply > demand and your actions to try and boost the price is doomed to fail. 2)You have to work on both the seller and buyer side of the market. Nobody is going to pay 250 mill for an Astarte if the buy orders still get filled at 150 mill 3)It takes time to convince people the price went up. The average market price is calculated over the last 7 days. It means you wonÆt even see the effect of your actions for over a week. To be successful it takes a few weeks of preparation and a few weeks/months of babysitting the market. All you did was fool a few careless buyers. 4)Despite what people might think its far easier to manipulate the price of heavily traded items than of a small niche market.
Schalke04	Posted - 2007.05.31 15:26:00 - [28] Its possible to manipulate the market. I took that as a test, cause i hadnt much time i could invest in this. I chose one of the rigs and with simply measures (which all you of course know and have been discussed here) the price of the item in the forge rose from 7 to 9 mil, and i unloaded all i had - bout 30 pieces. It was nothing, a small operation, but its possible. Its not that hard, just you have to find right timepoint on the market and choose a right item. Iam trading only t2 modules and high prices items, so i wouldnt try this in a ship market, like the op did. For me tha main part of my success till now is knowing the market.
Schalke04	Posted - 2007.05.31 15:29:00 - [29] Btw. Princess - iam impatient too, even with impatience, it can be done.
Ricdic Caldari Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd Zzz	Posted - 2007.05.31 16:37:00 - [30] Yeh it can be a high risk attempt much like a horse race in terms of odds. Practice with cheap gear so you don't need to be impatient, and work your way up as confidence and success percentage rises. Alternatively, buy a few of the different orders off the market (1 of each unit), then convo the people who are putting them there. Organise a consortium with them to not sell any of your goods below xxx price. It does work, and is currently something I do now on a couple of the items I sell. Only 1-3 other mass producer in Eve doing what I am doing, the rest are doing insignificant amounts. So we make sure we aren't undercutting each other's large quantity orders, and everyone is happy, profits stay high, and it ensures that our item/s will take longer to drop in price. Sick of the waits with empire research slots? Use mine!



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