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B Glorious Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.06.06 16:43:00 - [31] What about the Scimitar? How long would one of these hold up under sustained fire (not from a whole fleet, I'm talking like a half dozen ships), and can you hit them decently when they're that far away and with such small sig radiuses?
Nian Banks Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir	Posted - 2007.06.06 19:18:00 - [32] Originally by: B Glorious What about the Scimitar? How long would one of these hold up under sustained fire (not from a whole fleet, I'm talking like a half dozen ships), and can you hit them decently when they're that far away and with such small sig radiuses? The real issue with the Scimitar is that you lack the grid to fit a decent tank and a few large shield transfers, if it had a little more grid it would be good tho.
Mikal Drey Purgatorial Janitors Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.06 21:01:00 - [33] it can fit a nice tank if you plan it out Try : 4x Large S95 Transporters 2x Invuls II + 1x Large Shield booster II + 2x Cap II's 2x PDU + 1x RCU + 1x DC 88.7/81.9/72.8/81.9 resists with 2140HP Ive tried to avoid relays cause it gimps the shield booster but it all fits. Now they have increased the range to 71km for the transporters a light tank is all you need because you can avoid getting primaried by using your range effectivly. Theres also some potential for a small armor tank again as they have increased the armor resists too you only need to shore up the 2 poor resists and add a dual med repper setup. chuck Cap recharges in mids and bingo it should run schweet. Ive also decided to use cap recharge rigs in place of relays to add that extra recharge. Ive played around in FFA and after people actually notice your there repping their intended victim and turn on you you can certainly survive against most other cruisers and varients. BC's and above then you need to move a little fast and think escape but it does hold up quite well. Give me another 10% kinetic and i'll do [expletive deleted] for isk. As to the Daisy Chain idea it would be good to use your primary choice of logistic to others and chain each other with the drones that are now provided :) also having the drone bay gives you the choice of other drones and not just the maintenance bots; although ive always said that their drone bay could be limited to non assault type drones. Overall i love the changes to this underused ship.. . . er. . . . er.. .. good job Tux :)
l3lind Man	Posted - 2007.06.06 21:07:00 - [34] a bunch of these MWD'ing around with unlimited cap and tracking is win
Lynak Nathonson	Posted - 2007.06.07 00:33:00 - [35] Just out of a matter of interest anyone checked to see if the armored warfare gang links work on remote reps on Sisi? Not got the skills on the current mirror to do it myself
Nian Banks Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir	Posted - 2007.06.07 06:06:00 - [36] Originally by: Mikal Drey it can fit a nice tank if you plan it out Try : 4x Large S95 Transporters 2x Invuls II + 1x Large Shield booster II + 2x Cap II's 2x PDU + 1x RCU + 1x DC 88.7/81.9/72.8/81.9 resists with 2140HP So basically the Scimitar unlike the other Logistics ships, has to use non t2 remote repairers, not fit its secondary modules (remote tracking) and even after that, it doesn't have anything nice like a Large Shield Extended II. Ah the shame. Nope it needs another 200pg for sure. 100% for sure. If its left as is, then CCP are getting too drunk and going comatose.
B4NK	Posted - 2007.06.07 07:50:00 - [37] the TII reppers suck***** :( the S95's give the same repair ammount and less fitting reQ's shame really but thats why TII is soooooooooooooooo worth it !
Nian Banks Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir	Posted - 2007.06.07 08:24:00 - [38] Originally by: B4NK the TII reppers suck***** :( the S95's give the same repair ammount and less fitting reQ's shame really but thats why TII is soooooooooooooooo worth it ! Realy? Except for the T2 has a 4.5s activation time and the S95 has a 5s activation time. So the T2 is 10% better Shield/Second v's the named. So I repeat, the Scimitar needs 200 more power grid atleast.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.06.07 10:33:00 - [39] A scimitar with 200 more PG would be stupidly overpowered. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"

CCP Fendahl	Posted - 2007.06.07 16:18:00 - [40] Originally by: Lynak Nathonson Just out of a matter of interest anyone checked to see if the armored warfare gang links work on remote reps on Sisi? Not got the skills on the current mirror to do it myself The Armored Warfare Links got fixed when we worked on the logistic cruisers and Remote Armor Repair Systems. They now affect Remote Armor Repair Systems too, just like Siege Warfare Links affect Shield Transporters.


Triest Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.06.07 17:25:00 - [41] Edited by: Triest on 07/06/2007 17:33:00 Edited by: Triest on 07/06/2007 17:25:39 Originally by: Goumindong A scimitar with 200 more PG would be stupidly overpowered. As I stated on Scrapheap, to you in fact, this isn't really the case at all. The Scimitar has the same slot layout and effective bonuses as the Onieros, and 300 less grid. Even accounting for the larger grid requirement of large remote armor reps vs large shield transporters, the Scimitar ends up 100 grid short with all 4 high slots employed. Your only point for it being 'stupidly overpowered' was that it's faster than the Onieros. But given the role of logistics ships, the inability to adequately outfit it for the job somewhat outways a higher base speed and lower mass, in my view. Given that outfitting the logistics ships to be cap-stable pretty much requires utilizing cap batteries, and that to take advantage of that amazing, overpowered speed of the Scimitar requires fitting a 10mn MWD, the grid shortage is deal-breaking. You were unable to come up with an acceptable fitting for a small gang scimitar before, I'd still like to see you do it now. When it comes to logistics abilities, though, the daisy chaining ability of the Basilisk and Guardian make them far superior. A Scimitar or Onieros can't come close to running 4 large transporters sustainably. In contrast, without much need for fitting mods, you can get guardians/basilisks perma-running 5 large armor/shield transporters and a single large remote energy transfer array, provided they remote-energy transfer one-another. Or, if you're only interested in cap transfer, you can maintain massive cap transfer rates, again supported by a single cap transfer from another logistics ship. For capital ship support (i.e. jump-driving out of a bad situation) this seems fairly unmatched.
Nian Banks Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir	Posted - 2007.06.07 17:54:00 - [42] Originally by: Goumindong A scimitar with 200 more PG would be stupidly overpowered. I will assume you have yet to try fitting it properly and use its bonuses, that means large shield transporters, a couple of tracking links and a fair tank Or MWD + Cap Boosters and a minimal tank. If you can do it with the highly gimped PowerGrid then power too you and let me know how you did it! Because I can't see any way. +200 grid please, it does need it.
Dopefish Amarr Quad and Fish	Posted - 2007.06.07 18:33:00 - [43] Scimitar as small gangsupport will be awesome. Mwd, lse, injector and speed mods in low. Yes you will have to fit mediums but one injector cant sustain more than mwd + 2-3 large anyway so.
Ruciza	Posted - 2007.06.07 19:30:00 - [44] Forget the MWD. The speed tank is very important with logistics, and an mwd is counterproductive. The logistics support the gang, and the gang supports the logistics. If logistics need to outrun the enemy, you are doing something wrong. I also wonder where anybody gets the idea from that the Guardian and Basilisk are so much better. Your large shield/armor transfer/large cap transfer fittings run into problems pg wise, too. Not much left for tank there. And what happens if you count on cap tranfer and the other guy gets popped anyway? Or has to log? The Scimitar has an 18% better cap recharge than the Oneiros. It also has 43% less chance of being hit at max transversal, and if both use AB, the Scimitar has a 40% mass advantage, making it even quicker. The Oneiros needs his 200 additonal megawatts to tank, the Scimitar doesn't get hit in the first place.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.06.07 20:05:00 - [45] Yes, the ability to be 70km away from the battle going 3-4km/s is definitly a mitigating factor as to the quality of the ship that has to be balanced with its bonus. A scimitar can fit 3x Large Shield Transporters[best named] and an MWD. It can transfer 230.4 raw hp/second with that(not including drones which can add another 57.6 hp/second). It costs 50 cap/second to do so while MWDing. It is fully cap stable with the fitting: 3x LST, drone control range MWD, 4x CRII 2x ODII, 2x Beta CPR 2x Polycarbon It is fully cap stable with the fitting 3x LST, drone control range MWD, sensor booster, 3x CRII 1x OD, 3x Beta CPR 2x Polycarbon It is nearly cap stable with the fitting[its short only the sensor booster and ECCM cap] 3x LST, drone control range MWD, Sensor booster x2, ECCM, 1x CRII 4 x Beta CPR 2x polycarbon Such a ship has a lock range of 180km[hard to damp], and a sensor strength of 33.32 Yea, a basilisk and a Guardian can daisy chain really well and get eaten alive by EW[guardian only has 2 mids], or just get out-dps'd[basilisk that attempts to protect agianst EW has a 2 slot tank]. Not to mention that you have to have another basilisk or guardian[Oneiros or Scimitar wont cut it] in order to make those work. Not to mention that the amount of CPU used for a 5 LSTs and a cap transfer is significantly more than scimitar uses and the Basilisk only gets 18.75 more CPU in total in order to fit 159 more CPU worth of mods and 480 more PG worth of mods[with its 343 PG advantage]. None of them are perfect, but the scimitar is the best in the most situations since it can run around, not be caught, and not be neutralized the easiest while still providing boost to the tune of 2x XL booster IIs+ SBA ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Nian Banks Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir	Posted - 2007.06.07 20:23:00 - [46] Originally by: Goumindong Yes, the ability to be 70km away from the battle going 3-4km/s is definitly a mitigating factor as to the quality of the ship that has to be balanced with its bonus. A scimitar can fit 3x Large Shield Transporters[best named] and an MWD. It can transfer 230.4 raw hp/second with that(not including drones which can add another 57.6 hp/second). It costs 50 cap/second to do so while MWDing. It is fully cap stable with the fitting: 3x LST, drone control range MWD, 4x CRII 2x ODII, 2x Beta CPR 2x Polycarbon It is fully cap stable with the fitting 3x LST, drone control range MWD, sensor booster, 3x CRII 1x OD, 3x Beta CPR 2x Polycarbon It is nearly cap stable with the fitting[its short only the sensor booster and ECCM cap] 3x LST, drone control range MWD, Sensor booster x2, ECCM, 1x CRII 4 x Beta CPR 2x polycarbon Such a ship has a lock range of 180km[hard to damp], and a sensor strength of 33.32 Yea, a basilisk and a Guardian can daisy chain really well and get eaten alive by EW[guardian only has 2 mids], or just get out-dps'd[basilisk that attempts to protect agianst EW has a 2 slot tank]. Not to mention that you have to have another basilisk or guardian[Oneiros or Scimitar wont cut it] in order to make those work. Not to mention that the amount of CPU used for a 5 LSTs and a cap transfer is significantly more than scimitar uses and the Basilisk only gets 18.75 more CPU in total in order to fit 159 more CPU worth of mods and 480 more PG worth of mods[with its 343 PG advantage]. None of them are perfect, but the scimitar is the best in the most situations since it can run around, not be caught, and not be neutralized the easiest while still providing boost to the tune of 2x XL booster IIs+ SBA Wheres its tank? Wheres its Tracking Links? Wheres its T2 Large Shield Transporters? LOL your lame as, come back with a better excuse to prove that the Scimitar doesn't need more power grid, because this ones a flop mate, a big asses flop. Lame. And yes the LSTII is 10% better than your named module so to me 10% is a big difference, so it must be able to fit Large Shield Transporter II's or it aint good enough. Period!
Triest Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.06.07 20:31:00 - [47] Edited by: Triest on 07/06/2007 20:36:11 Edited by: Triest on 07/06/2007 20:31:09 Edited by: Triest on 07/06/2007 20:30:12 Originally by: Goumindong Yes, the ability to be 70km away from the battle going 3-4km/s is definitly a mitigating factor as to the quality of the ship that has to be balanced with its bonus. A scimitar can fit 3x Large Shield Transporters[best named] and an MWD. It can transfer 230.4 raw hp/second with that(not including drones which can add another 57.6 hp/second). It costs 50 cap/second to do so while MWDing. It is fully cap stable with the fitting: 3x LST, drone control range MWD, 4x CRII 2x ODII, 2x Beta CPR 2x Polycarbon It is fully cap stable with the fitting 3x LST, drone control range MWD, sensor booster, 3x CRII 1x OD, 3x Beta CPR 2x Polycarbon It is nearly cap stable with the fitting[its short only the sensor booster and ECCM cap] 3x LST, drone control range MWD, Sensor booster x2, ECCM, 1x CRII 4 x Beta CPR 2x polycarbon Such a ship has a lock range of 180km[hard to damp], and a sensor strength of 33.32 Yea, a basilisk and a Guardian can daisy chain really well and get eaten alive by EW[guardian only has 2 mids], or just get out-dps'd[basilisk that attempts to protect agianst EW has a 2 slot tank]. Not to mention that you have to have another basilisk or guardian[Oneiros or Scimitar wont cut it] in order to make those work. Not to mention that the amount of CPU used for a 5 LSTs and a cap transfer is significantly more than scimitar uses and the Basilisk only gets 18.75 more CPU in total in order to fit 159 more CPU worth of mods and 480 more PG worth of mods[with its 343 PG advantage]. None of them are perfect, but the scimitar is the best in the most situations since it can run around, not be caught, and not be neutralized the easiest while still providing boost to the tune of 2x XL booster IIs+ SBA Let's see: #1: No tank at all. 2000 shields with 40% min resist, 5.5 hp/s max recharge. Orbiting at 70km would be awesome, if you didn't have a 56km lock range. Extremely ECM/damp vulnerable. #2: Still no tank. You get around the 56km lock range, but now you're slower. Still no protection against ECM. #3: Still no tank, with some ECCM and damp resistance, but you're even slower, and no longer cap stable. Given the total cap reservoir of the Scimitar (small) and the cap use of the transporters (high), not being cap stable has a serious effect on the usefulness of these ships, since you drop past max regen and then cap out very quickly. I think you vastly overestimate the survivability of a ship that can orbit at 70km from a fight at 2.5-4 km/s, in this era of 10km/s+ interceptors; it gets webbed, and it's toast in seconds. If your only criticism of the basilisk is it only can spend 2 mids on a tank, you're not exactly buffing out the tanking of your scimitar fittings, are you? (And the Basilisk doesn't run out of CPU, even with 6 transporters, I believe) And sticking 100 million isk in speed rigs on a ship to claim a mediocre speed tank, on a ship with no guns or tank seems rather disingenuous. I doubt anyone would actually use them.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.06.07 20:43:00 - [48] The scimitar has a BASE 60km lock range and the skill that boosts lock range by 5%/level is required to be at 5 to even fly it! ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Triest Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.06.07 20:47:00 - [49] Originally by: Goumindong The scimitar has a BASE 60km lock range and the skill that boosts lock range by 5%/level is required to be at 5 to even fly it! Oh, they changed that too, then, I hadn't checked. Even so, it's highly vulnerable to damping in the first configuration.
Triest Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.06.07 20:52:00 - [50] Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 07/06/2007 20:49:08 The scimitar has a BASE 60km lock range and the skill that boosts lock range by 5%/level is required to be at 5 to even fly it! Yea a 10km/s inty can catch it[and if it forgoes drones, it can die to the 5 warrior IIs in the bay as well]. Yea, a basilisk having a 2 slot tank and needing another similarly fit basilisk there to keep it alive is a real downer. That the scimitar can provide >battleship level shield boosting and still be hard to kill is decidedly powerful. Give me a minute and ill give you a guesimation on how fast that scimitar will be going with decent quality mods. How is a 10km/s inty going to die to 5 warrior IIs on a ship with no web? Even a cheap, 5-6 km/s inty (easily achievable nowadays) won't get scratched.

Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.06.07 20:58:00 - [51] Originally by: Triest Originally by: Goumindong The scimitar has a BASE 60km lock range and the skill that boosts lock range by 5%/level is required to be at 5 to even fly it! Oh, they changed that too, then, I hadn't checked. Even so, it's highly vulnerable to damping in the first configuration. Yes, like all the others, it is decidedly imperfect. That does not mean it is not strong. It just means its not perfect. The solution is not to make the ship the perfect shield booster. with a t2 MWD,2 x t2 overdrives, and 2 polycarbon rigs a scimitar will go about 5km/s. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.06.07 20:59:00 - [52] Originally by: Triest Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 07/06/2007 20:49:08 The scimitar has a BASE 60km lock range and the skill that boosts lock range by 5%/level is required to be at 5 to even fly it! Yea a 10km/s inty can catch it[and if it forgoes drones, it can die to the 5 warrior IIs in the bay as well]. Yea, a basilisk having a 2 slot tank and needing another similarly fit basilisk there to keep it alive is a real downer. That the scimitar can provide >battleship level shield boosting and still be hard to kill is decidedly powerful. Give me a minute and ill give you a guesimation on how fast that scimitar will be going with decent quality mods. How is a 10km/s inty going to die to 5 warrior IIs on a ship with no web? Even a cheap, 5-6 km/s inty (easily achievable nowadays) won't get scratched. Yup, my mistake. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Lynak Nathonson	Posted - 2007.06.07 22:22:00 - [53] Originally by: CCP Fendahl Originally by: Lynak Nathonson Just out of a matter of interest anyone checked to see if the armored warfare gang links work on remote reps on Sisi? Not got the skills on the current mirror to do it myself The Armored Warfare Links got fixed when we worked on the logistic cruisers and Remote Armor Repair Systems. They now affect Remote Armor Repair Systems too, just like Siege Warfare Links affect Shield Transporters. Good news many thanks for your response.
Striker IV Gallente Grave Diggers	Posted - 2007.06.11 19:11:00 - [54] yea! on links. quick bump, im not able to dedicate as much time as others on the test server, has anything else changed with logistic ships since post? Team work is essential... It gives the other team something ELSE to shoot at!
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.06.11 21:14:00 - [55] Edited by: Goumindong on 11/06/2007 21:14:24 Originally by: Nian Banks Wheres its tank? Wheres its Tracking Links? Wheres its T2 Large Shield Transporters? LOL your lame as, come back with a better excuse to prove that the Scimitar doesn't need more power grid, because this ones a flop mate, a big asses flop. Lame. And yes the LSTII is 10% better than your named module so to me 10% is a big difference, so it must be able to fit Large Shield Transporter II's or it aint good enough. Period! Best named LSTs run the same boost as LST IIs. Oneiros cant run 3 lrars with tracking links at the same time, not enough cap. Its also a lot slower. LST = 160 PG. Lrar = 600 PG, 300 PG after boost Oneiros = about 300 more PG than the scimitar. 3x Lrars will put the Oneiros in the hole compared to the Scimitar. The 300 PG more it has base is eaten up by the 140 PG each lrar uses.[420 PG extra for 3] ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Dopefish Amarr Quad and Fish	Posted - 2007.06.12 17:07:00 - [56] Originally by: Goumindong LST = 160 PG. Lrar = 600 PG, 210 PG after boost Oneiros = about 300 more PG than the scimitar. 4x Lrars will not put the Oneiros in the hole compared to the Scimitar. The 300 PG more it has base is almost eaten up by the 50 PG each lrar uses.[200 PG extra for 4] fix'd i changed my mind on this topic.. scimi could use some extra grid..
Nian Banks Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir	Posted - 2007.06.12 19:35:00 - [57] Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 11/06/2007 21:14:24 Originally by: Nian Banks Wheres its tank? Wheres its Tracking Links? Wheres its T2 Large Shield Transporters? LOL your lame as, come back with a better excuse to prove that the Scimitar doesn't need more power grid, because this ones a flop mate, a big asses flop. Lame. And yes the LSTII is 10% better than your named module so to me 10% is a big difference, so it must be able to fit Large Shield Transporter II's or it aint good enough. Period! Best named LSTs run the same boost as LST IIs. Oneiros cant run 3 lrars with tracking links at the same time, not enough cap. Its also a lot slower. LST = 160 PG. Lrar = 600 PG, 300 PG after boost Oneiros = about 300 more PG than the scimitar. 3x Lrars will put the Oneiros in the hole compared to the Scimitar. The 300 PG more it has base is eaten up by the 140 PG each lrar uses.[420 PG extra for 3] You are joking right? You do realise the Oneiros gets a -65% to grid for the Lrar don't you? Let me break it down for you. With max Engineering and Electronics Scimitar PG 687.5, CPU 618.75 3x LST I = PG 480, CPU 210. Remaining PG 207.5, CPU 408.75 4x LST I = PG 640, CPU 280. Remaining PG 47.5, CPU 338.75 Oneiros PG 1062.5, CPU 462.5 3x LRAR I = PG 630, CPU 120. Remaining PG 432.5, CPU 342.5 4x LRAR I = PG 840, CPU 160. Remaining PG 222.5, CPU 203.5 Ok Now if you read this and work it out any numbskull will realise that the Oneiros is capable of fitting equipment with 4x LRAR I's because is has far more power grid left over, where as the scimitar has a measley 47.5 PG!!! Given this, I would say the Scimitar needs another 100 more power grid base and if we are so inclined as the Oneiros is 135.25 less in cpu it could do with another 75 more cpu. That sounds fair to me but at the end of the day the Oneiros will be able to fit something ok after 4 LRAR I's but the Scimitar with 4x LST I's will struggle to fit anything. I repeat 47.5 PG remaining. Ok got the picture now?
Sanctus Maleficus Oberon Incorporated Oberon Imperial Governance	Posted - 2007.06.12 22:01:00 - [58] Im not 100% certain on the exact numbers, but I'm pretty sure that the shield transporters are more efficient on both cap and transfer amount than the remote armor reppers, so comparing 4 to 4 isn't really fair. Any numbskull could see that.
Rigsta Gallente Raddick Explorations Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2007.06.12 22:27:00 - [59] Originally by: Nian Banks at the end of the day the Oneiros will be able to fit something ok after 4 LRAR I's but the Scimitar with 4x LST I's will struggle to fit anything. I repeat 47.5 PG remaining. My last fitting on Sisi was: High: 4x Large 'Solace' reps Med: 2x Tracking Link 2 (they are very nice with the bonus), 3x Cap rechargers Low: MAR II, Energized Reactive II, 2x CPR II 5x med armor maint bots I only got the skill to level 3 before the mirror though and the other remote-rep and cap related skills were under-levelled too so I couldn't test whether or not that setup could sustain cap or not. But it backs up your point there, and if I'm still short on cap to sustain the large reps I'd probably rig it. Very sweet ship. Originally by: Jim McGregor I felt the disturbance... it was like a million voices suddenly stopped whining for a second. Unfortunantly it then continued.
IHaveTenFingers Caldari ADVANCED Combat and Engineering	Posted - 2007.06.13 05:22:00 - [60] Originally by: Gaogan By the way, does anyone actually ever USE tracking links on these things? I can't see how they would ever be at all useful, so as a gallente pilot it feels like our logistics ship is only half useful. Ever seen a rokh hit with antimatter at over 100km? ------------------------------------ Your signature has exceeded the maximum allowed 2x1 pixel size and 4 byte file size limit, and has been removed.



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