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Twiagon	Posted - 2007.05.30 21:52:00 - [1] I have checked the first few pages and found nothing similar after being advised to post here. What is CCP's ruling/response/position on salvaging another characters wreck, of a different corp? Can theft is flagged and allows retaliation but wreck theft is free? All help appreciated. TY
Willow Whisp	Posted - 2007.05.30 21:58:00 - [2] It's not wreck theft. It's salvaging. The wrecks are just that. Wrecks. The "belongings" get moved to a container that still belongs to the original owner, so i'd say the wrecks are just scrap and not owned by anyone. I'm the alt of the main that the forums picked, and i can't be arsed to go through the "settings" page to change it back, k?
Derovius Vaden	Posted - 2007.05.30 21:58:00 - [3] Originally by: Willow Whisp It's not wreck theft. It's salvaging. The wrecks are just that. Wrecks. The "belongings" get moved to a container that still belongs to the original owner, so i'd say the wrecks are just scrap and not owned by anyone. The colour coding says otherwise. Yellow be theres, white be mine.
The Pointless Gallente Lacks a Point Ltd	Posted - 2007.05.30 22:00:00 - [4] Edited by: The Pointless on 30/05/2007 21:59:02 In any case, salvaging another's wreck is not a 'crime' in EVE nor - to my knowledge - is it considered a bug or exploit (even if it was, don't you think it would have been fixed by now if it was?) ----------------------------------------------- "And I scream in a thousand voices!"
Twiagon	Posted - 2007.05.30 22:50:00 - [5] Edited by: Twiagon on 30/05/2007 22:51:51 Let me get this right and no offence intended... We have can theft now flagged because people mined to jet cans and secure cans cannot hold 1/9th of a jet can. NPC's dropped a jet can with mostly valueless loot (even in 0.0), that was fair game for 3 years. Now NPC's drop a wreck, the loot contents of which can be worth almost nothing but are flagged and the wreck itself worth millions of isk (more than a jet can mining veld :p) Some Rig parts are in short supply hence the prices players are willing to pay. Salvaging a wreck "created" by somebody else is not flagged as belonging to them? I kill an npc and 10 seconds later (before I can dock and get back to it) somebody can salvage it with impunity? but take the contents of the loot and they are flagged for 15mins for stealing. I see a flaw in logic or an exploit (please let's not go there again given current allegations). I prefer to think of it as a missing rule and unless somebody can tell me why it is legal to do it that I can understand, I hope ccp will look into this. Regards TW edit What's next, stealing the bounty from your wallet for killing the npc because you didn't declare it to DED/local authorities quick enough? (just kidding but you see my point I hope?)
Frug Zenithal Harvest	Posted - 2007.05.30 22:54:00 - [6] The wreck is not yours. It's not your stuff. You shot someone, an NPC or a player, and you're stealing HIS stuff. If someone steals from YOUR wreck, then it's stealing. Stealing from you. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
Twiagon	Posted - 2007.05.30 23:05:00 - [7] Originally by: Frug Edited by: Frug on 30/05/2007 22:55:33 The wreck is not yours. It's not your stuff. You shot someone, an NPC or a player, and you're stealing HIS stuff. They probably shouldn't even be guilty of stealing if they take the loot out of a wreck. If someone steals from YOUR wreck, then it's stealing. Stealing from you. Salvaging is such a minor issue, who really cares? Where is this happening to you? In belts? One or two belt wrecks? Big deal. 1) let's have wrecks not colour flagged then, in fact, make a wreck separate from loot, to make this clear that it is not yours. 2) let's not even have flagging at all, to reduce the number or items required in the database, as you suggest it is not really a problem. 3) because nobody really cares, doesn't mean it is not an issue. 4) for the record, it was more than one attempt on more than one day but only one successful and I was a little surprised I could not then retaliate... after all, this is a pvp game, or is that in dispute and not cared about either? Respectfully TW
Stakhanov kleptomaniacs	Posted - 2007.05.30 23:30:00 - [8] Salvaging wrecks with loot has been made possible for a reason - to ensure loot flagging didn't extend to salvaging. I remember salvaging rat wrecks for a little while right after Kali , just minding my own business - who in their right mind would take offense of that ? I found a hulk with his drones out , in a belt littered with wrecks. I had to loot them to salvage , and he started attacking me ! I easily flew my salvage rifter out of harms way , came back looking for blood with my stabber , popping their ore and shooting their hauler even sparking a small scale war with that corp. So these new game mechanics are here for your own good. Greed + stupidity = easy targets
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.05.30 23:34:00 - [9] same as real life, first person to salvage something gets the claim
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.05.30 23:58:00 - [10] Originally by: Twiagon All help appreciated. It sounds awfully like you've already made up your mind about the issue, but you might be interested in the discussion about this here: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=508034 Also the differing treatment of loot vs. salvage is documented clearly here: https://support.eve-online.com/Pages/KB/Article.aspx?id=330 Quote: When a ship is destroyed, whether it is a player ship or an NPC ship, it leaves a wreck. The modules and items from the cargohold that are not destroyed in the ship's explotion, can be looted. In addition to this, raw materials can be extracted from the wreck by using salvaging. The materials salvaged can be sold on the market or used to create rigs. Note that anyone can salvage materials from wrecks, regardless of who destroyed the ship, while looting items from a wreck can get you flagged and a legal target for the owner. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Chelone	Posted - 2007.05.31 00:06:00 - [11] Originally by: Twiagon NPC's drop a wreck, the loot contents of which can be worth almost nothing but are flagged and the wreck itself worth millions of isk (more than a jet can mining veld :p) Salvaging a wreck "created" by somebody else is not flagged as belonging to them? I kill an npc and 10 seconds later (before I can dock and get back to it) somebody can salvage it with impunity? I see a flaw in logic or an exploit (please let's not go there again given current allegations). You are completely correct, and any attempts at opposing arguments in the thread are wasted breath. Can flagging was added to "protect" the owners, and salvage flagging WILL be added to do the same thing. It is only a question of WHEN, and of how many whiners there will be pulling at the rope on each side. Now, will salvage flagging actually protect mission runners' salvage? Probably moreso than miners, since your mission ship is geared for combat (albeit PvE combat.) But expect plenty of "salvage baiting" etc to happen. But if the mission runner is in deadspace, that would be a lot harder to do.
Badhands Gallente Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2007.05.31 00:10:00 - [12] Color coding helps me know whose cans i can tractor... you're nuts (and going way overboard). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Statement on dev misconduct: for the record, Darkstar1 has 3 pos in game only, both are and have always worked fine
Neothas	Posted - 2007.05.31 00:13:00 - [13] You are completely correct, and any attempts at opposing arguments in the thread are wasted breath. Can flagging was added to "protect" the owners, and salvage flagging WILL be added to do the same thing. It is only a question of WHEN, and of how many whiners there will be pulling at the rope on each side. Don't hold your breath on that one. You used to have to empty the contents to salvage the wreck, causing you to be flagged. They intentionally changed this to allow you to salvage without being flagged. Like it or not, CCP felt it was better this way.
Badhands Gallente Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2007.05.31 00:13:00 - [14] Originally by: Chelone Originally by: Twiagon NPC's drop a wreck, the loot contents of which can be worth almost nothing but are flagged and the wreck itself worth millions of isk (more than a jet can mining veld :p) Salvaging a wreck "created" by somebody else is not flagged as belonging to them? I kill an npc and 10 seconds later (before I can dock and get back to it) somebody can salvage it with impunity? I see a flaw in logic or an exploit (please let's not go there again given current allegations). You are completely correct, and any attempts at opposing arguments in the thread are wasted breath. Can flagging was added to "protect" the owners, and salvage flagging WILL be added to do the same thing. It is only a question of WHEN, and of how many whiners there will be pulling at the rope on each side. Now, will salvage flagging actually protect mission runners' salvage? Probably moreso than miners, since your mission ship is geared for combat (albeit PvE combat.) But expect plenty of "salvage baiting" etc to happen. But if the mission runner is in deadspace, that would be a lot harder to do. Also the differing treatment of loot vs. salvage is documented clearly here: https://support.eve-online.com/Pages/KB/Article.aspx?id=330 Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- When a ship is destroyed, whether it is a player ship or an NPC ship, it leaves a wreck. The modules and items from the cargohold that are not destroyed in the ship's explotion, can be looted. In addition to this, raw materials can be extracted from the wreck by using salvaging. The materials salvaged can be sold on the market or used to create rigs. Note that anyone can salvage materials from wrecks, regardless of who destroyed the ship, while looting items from a wreck can get you flagged and a legal target for the owner. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On that note: You sir are an idiot. It will NOT happen. It was made this way for a reason. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Statement on dev misconduct: for the record, Darkstar1 has 3 pos in game only, both are and have always worked fine
Chelone	Posted - 2007.05.31 00:56:00 - [15] Originally by: Badhands the differing treatment of loot vs. salvage is documented clearly... Irrelevant. You need to study the history of the game more closely. Specifically, the endless arguments claiming "jetcans are JETTISONED, you have ABANDONED the contents, you aren't SUPPOSED to MINE to a JETCAN, and we are allowed to TAKE it!! It is not STEALING, we are just picking through your GARBAGE!" Ad infinitum. And now? All those arguments have been erased. We have can flagging. If you had studied or thought at all about the history of jetcans, you would have come to this obvious realization. CCP for years had a long-standing policy to allow any and all jetcan theft, until enough people whined, and whined, and whined, and whined, and then like everything else, the whiners got what they wanted. Jetcan flagging. Wrecks are no different. CCP can set whatever current policy they want to, and it isn't relevant in the long-term. Jetcan theft? Oops, now we will change our position in response to the whiners. POS bowling? Oops, now we will change our position in response to the whiners. Wreck theft? Just a matter of time. As the OP has already clearly explained, wrecks are generally MORE valuable than the mission loot cans that are currently flagged. If someone can't go around stealing cap booster charges, WHY can they go around stealing melted caps? And the reason behind CCP's current logically-inconsistent policy? I don't know, and it's honestly not relevant. They change their positions all the time. All that is required is a sufficient amount of whining. The wreck owners have at least 2 clear points in their favor. The logically inconsistent nature of flagging loot yet not salvage, and the incessant whine which will rise and rise in their camp. So, like I said, it's only a question of WHEN looting wrecks will be stealing. Enjoy stealing those wrecks while you can. Oh and good job with the "idiot" personal attack, that just bolsters your argument so greatly.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.05.31 01:00:00 - [16] jetcan theft may be flagged but it ISNT illegal, concord doesn't penalize for it, its merely provocation that means concord wont consider your retaliation assualt
Neothas	Posted - 2007.05.31 01:12:00 - [17] "Irrelevant. You need to study the history of the game more closely." I was just thinking the same thing about you. The specific topic (salvage flagging) was discussed over and over, and CCP not only made a decision but changed the game mechanics to allow it to happen. So you can compare apples and oranges all day long. It's not the same thing.
Neothas	Posted - 2007.05.31 01:14:00 - [18] Oh...and since you obviously weren't keeping up with the argument.... The main reason for allowing it was to increase the amount of salvage parts on the markets, since many people don't bother to salvage their own wrecks. So whine vs. game balance......wonder who will win out..... Oh wait....game balance already did....
Lavinrac Krad	Posted - 2007.05.31 01:17:00 - [19] Originally by: Neothas Oh...and since you obviously weren't keeping up with the argument.... The main reason for allowing it was to increase the amount of salvage parts on the markets, since many people don't bother to salvage their own wrecks. So whine vs. game balance......wonder who will win out..... Oh wait....game balance already did.... Don't count whine out yet...
Neothas	Posted - 2007.05.31 01:18:00 - [20] Originally by: Lavinrac Krad Originally by: Neothas Oh...and since you obviously weren't keeping up with the argument.... The main reason for allowing it was to increase the amount of salvage parts on the markets, since many people don't bother to salvage their own wrecks. So whine vs. game balance......wonder who will win out..... Oh wait....game balance already did.... Don't count whine out yet... Sadly you are correct :(
Chelone	Posted - 2007.05.31 01:19:00 - [21] Edited by: Chelone on 31/05/2007 01:22:10 As much as it currently appears that the illogical, self-serving arguments of thieves like you has won out, for Eve I remain a firm believer that whining conquers all. By the way, your/their "it's good for the market" argument is also completely illogical. No one said salvaging a wreck will make your ship spontaneously explode, or PC melt. It's called FLAGGING, a practice which griefers currently even use to great benefit for themselves. If you are so sobbingly worried about the poor, unloved and unsalvaged wrecks out there, which are increasing your rig costs by 15% - don't bother. Wreck flagging would CLEARLY have little or no effect on that (another point you miss by a mile.) If the mission runner has truly ABANDONED the wrecks, then being FLAGGED for salvaging them wouldn't be very dangerous, now would it? Especially in a 1M destroyer! Give me a break. Come up with something better, or don't even bother posting.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.05.31 01:30:00 - [22] Quote: And the reason behind CCP's current logically-inconsistent policy? I don't know, and it's honestly not relevant. They change their positions all the time. All that is required is a sufficient amount of whining. The wreck owners have at least 2 clear points in their favor. The logically inconsistent nature of flagging loot yet not salvage, and the incessant whine which will rise and rise in their camp. So, like I said, it's only a question of WHEN looting wrecks will be stealing. Enjoy stealing those wrecks while you can. The mechanics are only "logically inconsistent" if your mind is incapable of allowing for a difference between "loot" and "salvage". If that's the case, I'd suggest for your peace of mind that you also protest the fact that salvage takes special modules, skills, and time to retrieve, as this is also inconsistent. Not that I think you're really interested in the logic part anyway. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Chelone	Posted - 2007.05.31 02:18:00 - [23] Is that like the difference between "loot" and "ore"? LOL, seriously, give up.
Ryoma Sakamoto	Posted - 2007.05.31 03:55:00 - [24] Applying the OP's logic to real life will imply that the salvage rights of the Bismarck belongs to the Royal Navy, regardless of who actually salvaged the wreck. Conversely, current international salvage laws grants all salvage rights of the wrecks and their cargoes to the original owner, and to the salvager if the original owner claimed insurance (and therefore abandoned all rights to the original ship). Having said that, it would probably be fair to put a 15 minute timer on all wrecks, during which only the player who actually shot at the ship could target its wreck. Salvaging an "abandoned" wreck is fine, but battlefield salvage should probably give priority to the combatants first. After all, scavengers usually didn't come out until after all the combatants have left the battlefield.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.05.31 04:06:00 - [25] Originally by: Chelone LOL, seriously, give up. LMAOBBQZ0R you've convinced me. And I think CCP can't withstand the power and simplicity of your rhetoric and acronyms for long either. Keep on fighting the good fight, sir. But in the meantime, I've got to get back to work... * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
syphurous Gallente	Posted - 2007.05.31 04:16:00 - [26] Originally by: Ryoma Sakamoto to put a 15 minute timer on all wrecks So after I run blockade lvl2 3 times in a row using smartbombs on a BS how many new dynamic database entries do you think I personally have created ? What I'm trying to say is, thats a really bad idea. ______________________________
Dr Wellesley Burden of Mars	Posted - 2007.05.31 04:53:00 - [27] Wardec'm :) :D :) <---// We like trees. We like trees. They're so green and ... BRANCHY!
Callthetruth Caldari Logical Logtistics	Posted - 2007.05.31 04:57:00 - [28] Originally by: Twiagon I have checked the first few pages and found nothing similar after being advised to post here. What is CCP's ruling/response/position on salvaging another characters wreck, of a different corp? Can theft is flagged and allows retaliation but wreck theft is free? All help appreciated. TY salvage it before someone else does simple, wrecks are free game devs have stated they are , i probably droped in on youre mission site at some point but anyway thats a moot point its free u can suicide gank me if u feel really strongly over it otherwise join a palyer corp have a buddy salvage as u grind missions in carebear land and get on with teh game
Gorefacer	Posted - 2007.05.31 06:26:00 - [29] From a logical standpoint modules from a ship you kill and compenents that can be put together to create modules from that same ship are virtually the same thing. Currently the decision of "legality" by CCP of taking items from inside a wreck and taking items from the wreck itself, is arbitrary. Trying to argue otherwise is silly stupid. I've personally never had someone try to salvage one of "my" wrecks so I don't feel very strongly one way or the other.
Neothas	Posted - 2007.05.31 06:56:00 - [30] Originally by: Chelone Edited by: Chelone on 31/05/2007 01:22:10 As much as it currently appears that the illogical, self-serving arguments of thieves like you has won out, for Eve I remain a firm believer that whining conquers all. I happen to be a trader / producer. I don't even salvage my own wrecks, let alone other peoples. But if it makes you feel better to call me a pirate go ahead. You've been told that it was changed to allow this to happen (which you seemed to be unaware of), and you were told why it was done. Yet you still call everything anyone else says either illogical or irrelevant. It came down to a choice between the lesser of two evils....and your side lost. If you wanted to !@#$%^ about it, you missed the boat by several months. But I'll let you get back to your little crusade. I think we all can agree that a subject that has generated an entire 3 threads since it was introduced deserves the Dev's complete attention.

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