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Highsec ganking at its finest ....

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Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2007.05.31 17:22:00 - [61] Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 Quote: Yep, I don't really understand why you didn't dock. If I saw 50+ Caracals outside a station do you guys even play eve? Have you ever undocked and tried to redock and see what happens. I am not sure what version of eve you play but mine says "the station is buisy you cannot redock for 20 seconds...." Yup, and in those same 20 secs they cannot target (nor bump I think, I only ever bump or get bumped when I either move or the timer runs out) you either, so unless you were stupid enough to move or activate modules directly after undocking into that mass of caracals, you are perfectly safe. Of course, a macro probably does not realize that... lol I dont mind one bit if macroers/farmers kill each other. But if they start doing it to real players, something needs to be done. Sweatshop-suiciding really stinks. Thank you SkyFlyer! There is no 'n' in tur
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2007.05.31 17:23:00 - [62] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 31/05/2007 17:22:41 I would be very angry too, but as a outsider, im glad its possible to do that. Otherwise they might as well put in the famous /pvp flag. In other games you can collect epics or whatever and never lose them. Eve is probably the only modern game where you can lose your stuff. Thats what makes it special and a game for grownups. --- Originally by: CCP Wrangler You're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, thats what hello kitty online is for.
Maxine Blade	Posted - 2007.05.31 17:35:00 - [63] I don't know if it's an exploit or not... All I know is that it is a nice thing to have when you want to kill someone in Highsec, specifically Ore Thieves Ganked an Ore Thief hauling a ton of minerals he stole from the local miners... podded him too LOL So, as long as it's around, us carebears can use it too
thisismyalt	Posted - 2007.05.31 17:35:00 - [64] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 Quote: Yep, I don't really understand why you didn't dock. If I saw 50+ Caracals outside a station do you guys even play eve? Have you ever undocked and tried to redock and see what happens. I am not sure what version of eve you play but mine says "the station is buisy you cannot redock for 20 seconds...." Yup, and in those same 20 secs they cannot target (nor bump I think, I only ever bump or get bumped when I either move or the timer runs out) you either, so unless you were stupid enough to move or activate modules directly after undocking into that mass of caracals, you are perfectly safe. Of course, a macro probably does not realize that... lol I dont mind one bit if macroers/farmers kill each other. But if they start doing it to real players, something needs to be done. Sweatshop-suiciding really stinks. You can definitely be bumped before those 20 sec are up. I'm not positive of the mechanics but I've heard that bumping the undocking ship allows it to be targeted before the 20 sec is up.
Aille Pluthrak Caldari Booze and Hookers	Posted - 2007.05.31 17:35:00 - [65] The target of this bit of overkill **ed off someone. I think he/she learned a valuable lesson: Don't ** off someone who can bring 50 others to your death party. I don't see a problem with what happened to the target. ---------------------- Boom goes the ship! Squish goes the pilot!
Hennry Fromer Gallente radiated space gerbils	Posted - 2007.05.31 17:41:00 - [66] Originally by: Ares Lightfeather Except that it isn't even a whine, it isn't even his own ships that was lost... Am I the only one to understand that the OP asked about whether the tactic used was legitimate or not ? And therefore spamming how to avoid it or that the guys is an idiot for getting his ship blown up is off-topic ? For me, using 50+ ships that could be trial account to blow another one in high sec using lag as a secondary weapon is an exploit. If those were regular accounts I think it would be "fair" play. The point of wether or not this is an exploit is determined by what happens to the gankers after this, If they are alts and recycled it is an exploit - If they play on and fix thier sec it is not. It is not an exploit to attack another player and accept the concequences of your actions. It is not an exploit to bring friends. It's not an exploit to only buy and use the modules that will be effective in the planned attack. So looks to me like there is not exploit in what you described - unless the attackers are recycled after the attack.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.05.31 17:55:00 - [67] Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 Quote: Yep, I don't really understand why you didn't dock. If I saw 50+ Caracals outside a station do you guys even play eve? Have you ever undocked and tried to redock and see what happens. I am not sure what version of eve you play but mine says "the station is buisy you cannot redock for 20 seconds...." yup and if you dont DO anything for the first 30 seconds you are invulnerable, by the time it wears out you can redock, welcome to eve n00b Real turtles tank armor. Real men fly Pink.
Rhaegor Stormborn Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2007.05.31 17:59:00 - [68] Lmao.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.05.31 18:15:00 - [69] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 31/05/2007 18:14:05 Originally by: Arron S Edited by: Arron S on 31/05/2007 13:19:26 You have to understand, Most of the people who play eve hate, Mission Runners, Miners and traders for some reason. They don't mind buying implants off of mission runners and they sure as hell don't mind buying ships off them either I think you need a little correction : A small but vociferous minorance of those who play eve hate, Mission Runners, Miners and traders for some reason. The others don't suffer from big bouts of envy and witraval pains if they don't kill a ship every 10 minutes of play.
voogru Gallente Massive Damage	Posted - 2007.05.31 18:26:00 - [70] These are farmers. These are probably all one large group of sweatshop workers. I hope this becomes more common among farmers and maybe then people will realise how they are a threat to EVE rather than sitting idly as they farm and farm and farm, they all have decent security status's as well from farming missions 23/7, so they could potentially do this for a while.
Vodka Neat Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.05.31 18:37:00 - [71] Thanks for the idea! Two changes I think would be fair though, one no payout for concord popping your ship and allowing target jamming without concord coming in. That way fine you can target me without penalty and I can try to prevent it without penalty. Why are you still reading? Its over. Continue to the next post.
voogru Gallente Massive Damage	Posted - 2007.05.31 18:43:00 - [72] Originally by: Vodka Neat Thanks for the idea! Two changes I think would be fair though, one no payout for concord popping your ship and allowing target jamming without concord coming in. That way fine you can target me without penalty and I can try to prevent it without penalty. Then what? It's going to be 200M to pop a CNR? Still worth it. But yes, insurance shouldnt be paid when you get concordokkend. The counter to this is easy: Find, and ban farmers that send off all of their isk to a certian individual (ie, their boss), who then takes it and transfers it to an ISK seller.
Gloria Stitz	Posted - 2007.05.31 18:48:00 - [73] Originally by: Venkul Mul A small but vociferous minorance of those Minorance?? George Bush plays eve ------------- 'Don't try to learn Eve all at once, otherwise your brain will explode' - Albert Einstein ------------
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2007.05.31 18:53:00 - [74] Quote: "I dont mind one bit if macroers/farmers kill each other. But if they start doing it to real players, something needs to be done. Sweatshop-suiciding really stinks." heh me either but I know farmers well and I highly doubt they would invest so much into a ship to farm, who knows though. the other thing is that most of the time you leave a station you can;t see anything and you double click to move away from the station asap so when you warp you dont get hung up on teh station or other ships... I still think the big point is the concept of letting people suicide on other people with no risk is against everything eve is supposed to be about. There is no need to kill carebears is there? I mean there are plenty of people in pc corps, and 0.0 to battle with, suiciding on carebears is being the ultimate carebear. you are 100% safe until YOU CHOOSE WHEN YOU WILL DIE, that is everything EVE is designed NOT to be.
voogru Gallente Massive Damage	Posted - 2007.05.31 18:57:00 - [75] Edited by: voogru on 31/05/2007 18:56:48 Quote: "I dont mind one bit if macroers/farmers kill each other. But if they start doing it to real players, something needs to be done. Sweatshop-suiciding really stinks." Nothing you can do about it. Anyone with good gear is a potential victim. Other than mass petitions about "people with funny names and NPC corp for 7 months" being petitioned into the dirt about "Possibly Farming ISK for the purpose of sale". Your screwed.
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2007.05.31 18:59:00 - [76] Quote: yup and if you dont DO anything for the first 30 seconds you are invulnerable, by the time it wears out you can redock, welcome to eve n00b Right and what kind of noob are you that you undock and stare at the screen for 30 seconds...I know I doubel click in space to get away from the station asap, so i dont get hung up on the station or other ships when i warp off.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.05.31 19:04:00 - [77] the kind that doesn't get caught in ganks Real turtles tank armor. Real men fly Pink.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.05.31 19:22:00 - [78] Originally by: Hennry Fromer Originally by: Ares Lightfeather Except that it isn't even a whine, it isn't even his own ships that was lost... Am I the only one to understand that the OP asked about whether the tactic used was legitimate or not ? And therefore spamming how to avoid it or that the guys is an idiot for getting his ship blown up is off-topic ? For me, using 50+ ships that could be trial account to blow another one in high sec using lag as a secondary weapon is an exploit. If those were regular accounts I think it would be "fair" play. The point of wether or not this is an exploit is determined by what happens to the gankers after this, If they are alts and recycled it is an exploit - If they play on and fix thier sec it is not. It is not an exploit to attack another player and accept the concequences of your actions. It is not an exploit to bring friends. It's not an exploit to only buy and use the modules that will be effective in the planned attack. So looks to me like there is not exploit in what you described - unless the attackers are recycled after the attack. You are right. There is only a weak point: for players it is impossible to check if it has been exploited. If player X every 10 days create a set of ganker alts, use them and then recycle the alt, how is possible for the players to know that? So it seem an exploit without chance of getting chaugt, as no one can legitimatly petition it. Maybe CCP should put a program monitoring the recycling of characters. Every time someone recycle a character with low security standing (lower enough that he can't enter 0.8 space can be a good level) the program register it. Then the program queries the number of recicled alts and the frequency. If it see that the same account has recycled more than 2 characters and average of 1 character every 10 days or less, they start a investigation on what the player is doing, without the need for a petition. Someone doing it legitimatly and accepting the consequences will not be bothered, someone playing with recycling alts will get the banstic.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.05.31 19:29:00 - [79] Originally by: Gloria Stitz Originally by: Venkul Mul A small but vociferous minorance of those Minorance?? George Bush plays eve I see, minority , I am not english native, and probably it was a Freudian lapse with minorato (and not, it is best if I don't translate that).
Jacque Custeau Knights of the Minmatar Republic	Posted - 2007.05.31 19:32:00 - [80] The number of concord ships that spawn are part of the problem. Would it be possible to create a single, powerful concord ship to deal with this problem instead of creating a new blob? ------------------- 09:F9:11:02:9D:74:E3:5B:D8:41:56:C5:63:56:88:C0
Toria Nynys Minmatar	Posted - 2007.05.31 19:38:00 - [81] Originally by: voogru These are farmers. These are probably all one large group of sweatshop workers. I hope this becomes more common among farmers and maybe then people will realise how they are a threat to EVE rather than sitting idly as they farm and farm and farm, they all have decent security status's as well from farming missions 23/7, so they could potentially do this for a while. This guy gets it. It's only a matter of time until the farmers realize there's a demand as well as supply part of their income equation. At that point they may wish to use their resources to stimulate demand by suiciding their competition. And guess what: if you're a mish runner -- you're competition. If deprived of your ability to earn ISK in a mish running ship you may be more predisposed to buying it. Also the economics of a trial account gank gang -- I'm guestimating less than 1M per caracal after insurance. So 50m total for a dice roll on several hundred million to several billion of loot drops. That's better than most invention with far less work! In fact, if you have someone salvage the wrecks you may break even. As the high end loot gets popped, the prices should rise as well. As another poster pointed out, running missions 24/7 will easily fix standings, and allow for several suicide ganks a day.
Cipher7 Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.05.31 19:56:00 - [82] Originally by: Trishan High sec ganking places zero risk on part of the attackers. They lose sec status and have a possibilty of having their (your) loot swiped or destroyed. Also this is 30 people working together, not 1 person, 30 people making a coordinated strikd, how much sec status do they lost collectively, and how much loot did they split amongst themselves? Piracy happens in highsec because that's where the phat lewt is. What good is it to gank shuttles and t1 fitted battleships in 0.0? Piracy is about making MONEY through PVP. They nerfed lowsec, now the pirates are in highsec. It doesn't matter what you do, you'll never stop it. Piracy has a right to exist, pirates have a right to operate and feed on you from time to time, just as you have a right to make money from your own Eve profession. You get free money from grinding missions day in day out, or munching on roids. What gives you the right to complain that 1 time in a million, your oh-so-expensive ship got ganked? Good. I hope you get ganked again. Better yet I hope you get over your fear of losing pixels and learn to laugh at loss, because people are meant to lose ships. Why do they even have security status? Why are the systems labeled 1.0 .9 .8 .7 .6? Because Concord response times vary, to make highsec ganking easier in .5 than in .1 Eve is a PVP game.
Cipher7 Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.05.31 20:01:00 - [83] Edited by: Cipher7 on 31/05/2007 20:01:42 Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 Not only will you bite but you can swallow to... all of those activies you describe have a place in eve and it is not in empire... what you are trying to infer are not regular players but griefers and lazy gamers exploiting simplistic game mechanics. They are the true carebears, who are too scared to play in low sec and specifically 0.0 space. so they instead load up with no risk insured caracals..... Not sure how you can defend them dude. I mean you try to talk the talk like your mr big tough hard arse EVE elite, yet you support players who are obviously vet's hugging empire safely to suicide gank because they are too chicken to play out in 0.0? Sorry the only disconnect is between the players of eve and this very vocal minority of lazy chicken empire hugging griefers, who want to be able to play eve with ZERO risk while finding loop holes in the game to make big bucks fast....Seriously it is time for CCP to make these guys buck up and get out and play with the big boys. Read the post just above this one, I'm not going to repeat myself for every n00b. Every system has its own sec status, 1.0, .9, .8 and so forth. You are not safe anywhere. There is no non-PVP area, there are mechanics to discourage the killing of new players in high sec, not to protect 3 year old carebears from the occaisional gank/robbery. There are no "griefers." Piracy and Crime are valid Eve professions. Highsec piracy is a valid playstyle. Pirates have a right to steal from you and kill you from time to time. Don't fly something that you can't afford to lose.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.05.31 20:21:00 - [84] Originally by: Cipher7 Originally by: Trishan High sec ganking places zero risk on part of the attackers. They lose sec status and have a possibilty of having their (your) loot swiped or destroyed. You are losing a very important point: all that can be precisely factored, with a minuscoile chance of error. It is exactly the same thing that the mission running you so despise. The chance of success and the return can be calculated with extreme precision, no surprise, no variables. So why when that is done by mission runners you protest it as carebearing, when is done by "huber PvPers" you applaud it? The "costs" you mention are factored in your calculations if the attack is worth it or not. Exactly as a mission runner decide if going against a faction is worth it or not, mesuring the return in isk against the loss of standing with that faction.
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2007.05.31 20:29:00 - [85] you know if there was REAL counters to this like being able to jam people who target you without being concorded, or mods/rigs that could give fake results back to cargo scanners there might be a valid defense of suicide ganking. But there isn;t there is no defense, you cannot take the iniative, you can only hope you are not the person they choose that day, or only use worthless mods on your ships which is ********. Funny thing is if people could use 20 caracals that only fit t1 launchers and clear some mission or complex for over a billion ISK and do it in 15 minutes, you all would be screaming BLOODLY MURDER nerf this and that because the risk vs reward is wacked out. So I really have trouble understanding why you can support the same type of earning potential for no risk in this situation..... So in the end CCP needs to adjust the risk vs reward for suicide ganking if they want to include it as some needed feature, and they need to implment some changes to allow REAL DEFENSE to it and ACTUAL COUNTERS. Things like I mentioned above, and maybe things like concord locking the wreck of a suicide to all but the owner for 15 minutes, so there is a risk the gankers might not be assured to get the loot. Until then I will continue to be vocal about this game imbalance the same way I was when the t2 market was clearly fuxored up and people where able to sit in stations making billions in an hour or 2 of cueing up build orders on t2 items.
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2007.05.31 20:36:00 - [86] Quote: Read the post just above this one, I'm not going to repeat myself for every n00b. I did and you keep posting the same poorly thought out rhetoric every time on this issue, it might be able to fool a noob, but anyone who plays this game understands it is all junk. There is no risk, they calculate it out they only gank when they are 99.9% sure they make money, otherwise they can sit there SAFELY with no risk, Sec rating is a joke, and can be negated by using alts ( sure it is illegal GOOD LUCK PROVING I AM CYCLING ALTS when you have no frigging clue what is on my account lmao. you have no clue of the real person playing a character ) Again this is the same behavior that you would be screaming blooidy murder if people were able to make it on missions with no risk.
voogru Gallente Massive Damage	Posted - 2007.05.31 20:37:00 - [87] Edited by: voogru on 31/05/2007 20:39:18 Originally by: Cipher7 Originally by: Trishan High sec ganking places zero risk on part of the attackers. They lose sec status and have a possibilty of having their (your) loot swiped or destroyed. Also this is 30 people working together, not 1 person, 30 people making a coordinated strikd, how much sec status do they lost collectively, and how much loot did they split amongst themselves? Piracy happens in highsec because that's where the phat lewt is. What good is it to gank shuttles and t1 fitted battleships in 0.0? Piracy is about making MONEY through PVP. They nerfed lowsec, now the pirates are in highsec. It doesn't matter what you do, you'll never stop it. Piracy has a right to exist, pirates have a right to operate and feed on you from time to time, just as you have a right to make money from your own Eve profession. You get free money from grinding missions day in day out, or munching on roids. What gives you the right to complain that 1 time in a million, your oh-so-expensive ship got ganked? Good. I hope you get ganked again. Better yet I hope you get over your fear of losing pixels and learn to laugh at loss, because people are meant to lose ships. Why do they even have security status? Why are the systems labeled 1.0 .9 .8 .7 .6? Because Concord response times vary, to make highsec ganking easier in .5 than in .1 Eve is a PVP game. maybe when you realise that: 1. these are all sweatshop farmers 2. the results of these ganks go to one guy (their boss). 3. the resulting isk is then sold for $$$. 4. you have no way to get back at them, npc corp, and if you sucide them back oh no they lost a ibis. I have nothing against a group of 30 pirates suiciding a ship. The problem is this is probably 3-4 guys in a sweatshop running several accounts each and then using the profits for $$$. Do you really want an EVE-China, where the only way to play is to buy isk from the sweatshops? I think not. Quote: you know if there was REAL counters to this like being able to jam people who target you without being concorded What about jamming 30 ships? The counter to this is more GM's going after and banning ISK sellers.
Happster Polaris Project	Posted - 2007.05.31 20:41:00 - [88] Edited by: Happster on 31/05/2007 20:40:39 To those that keep yelling EVE is a PVP game, i have to say yes...sure it is. BUT!!! EVE is ALSO a PVE game ;) Atm PVP is intefering more and more with the PVE part. And if nothing will be done to it, the PVE part will get a harder and harder time. In the end PVE in EVE will die. For those that yell EVE is a PVP Game all the time, they will say...sure fine! But consider this. If theres no PVE'ers, who will find all the fancy expencive stuff that we love to fit on our pvp ships? EVE had room for both PVE and PVP when i first started. Yeah....i used to do missions. But, lately we have seen more and more that the PVE life in EVE gets harder and harder. CCP should follow this trend carefully. If its starts to escalate more then already, it should be delth with in some manner, to make PVE safer from these kind of ganks. To those that say high sec isnt all safe, and refering to that long list. I want to say sure its not. You can be war decced, and shot at any place in eve, without concorde ever intefering. Yeah yeah, i know. Newbie corps ftw...right? I see a problem when this trend of empire ganking, but dont really see a solution yet. I only know one thing, if it escalates it will get a big problem.
Ekscalybur	Posted - 2007.05.31 21:22:00 - [89] Originally by: knifee Apart from the lag (which sucks) there is nothing wrong with this.. if some1, or some group really want you dead then they should be able to do it. The only problem is if they are recycling alts, which is not allowed. I agree wholeheartedly with this. In fact, I will applaud people who do this. When they use their mains to do it, that is. Fact is, most of those 'characters' were throwaway alts on a second account, recycled when needed, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people have secondary accounts specifically for pain free griefing. Like I said, I have nothing against jumping into cheap ships with some buds and wreaking havoc. But at least have the cahones to do it with your main.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.05.31 21:40:00 - [90] The problem with this is the economics of it all which are whacked (although if it is farmers killing farmers I'm cool with that...this is more the principle of the matter). Look at the math... Caracal + Platinum Insurance + T1 Mods - Insurance Payout = 1.5 million ISK (give or take a bit) 50 ships * 1.5 million = 75 million Raven (no fittings) = 90 million See an imbalance there? Not even counting the Raven's fittings it is worth more than all the suiciding ships combined. Add in even just T2 mods and that price jumps considerably. Add in faction/officer stuff and it goes off the charts. Making the ship worth around 500 million is not too hard. Kill the insurance payout to the suicide gankers and I think that about balances it. It should cost more to suicide than whatever it is you are suiciding (not counting mods of course).

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