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Borgholio Minmatar Quantum Industries Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2007.06.01 02:54:00 - [1] Edited by: Borgholio on 01/06/2007 02:54:23 Edited by: Borgholio on 01/06/2007 02:53:31 Now before I continue, let me state that I am NOT interested in discussing the alleged scandal. It's been done to death already and personally I'm sick of hearing about it. The point of this post is simply to discuss the effect this drama has had on other games. As you may or may not know, Infinity is an upcoming space MMO that has the potential to be a major competitor to EVE. You can find more about it here: Infinity - The Quest for Earth I was browsing the forums trying to learn more about this game, and I came upon a thread that piqued my interest. It seems that the Infinity dev team is well aware of what's happing in our own little universe here, and they're taking steps to ensure that this sort of thing never happens to them. Infinity message boards Some of the policies regarding Developer and GM interaction in Infinity are very sensible, and I believe that it would do EVE a great service if CCP would implement some of these ideas. ----------------------------------- You will be assimilated...bunghole!
Krulla Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.06.01 03:02:00 - [2] Edited by: Krulla on 01/06/2007 03:02:41 Infinity is vaporvare... I'm very, very, very sceptical it will ever get released. Even if it will ever get released, it won't have a quarter of the features they're promising. These people don't know they're limitations.
Chelone	Posted - 2007.06.01 03:06:00 - [3] IBTL! (Can't believe they'd allow a competitor thread but then again if it gets a lot of ridicule from Eve members, quite possible. By the way, seems cool, I hope it materializes.)
Borgholio Minmatar Quantum Industries Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2007.06.01 03:07:00 - [4] Originally by: Chelone IBTL! (Can't believe they'd allow a competitor thread but then again if it gets a lot of ridicule from Eve members, quite possible. By the way, seems cool, I hope it materializes.) Well if the mods have an issue it, they can simply move it to the Out of Pod section where discussion about non-EVE games is allowed. :-P ----------------------------------- You will be assimilated...bunghole!
Sc0rpion	Posted - 2007.06.01 03:30:00 - [5] Originally by: Krulla Infinity is vaporvare Which is really a shame, because their ideas about procedural content are compelling. The true secret to enjoying life is to live it dangerously. -Friedrich Nietzsche Killmails are for pooftas.
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2007.06.01 03:31:00 - [6] Like the April fool joke in there "- we'll introduce a system of races and skills to make the game more interesting, because we all know that a game without those will be boring. 5 races will be available: the Rrama (directly inspired from A.C.Clarke of course!), the Iradlac, the Etnellag, the Evoj and the Ratamnim." SKUNK
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2007.06.01 03:33:00 - [7] OUCH - it goes on "- planetary landing is removed, it was all pre-rendered in Terragen and would look crap in real-time anyway. - in order to keep performance up, it will no longer be twitch based, but play as point & click. Newtonian physics is overrated and playing the view upside-down is dangerous for your mental health anyway.. - the game will now be wholy jumpgate-based. We thought that the freedom of the previously-planed hyperdrive would confuse newbies too much. - we'll remove collision detection.. nobody likes to bump into objects. - there will only be around 5000 star systems, and not a full galaxy. They will only feature one sun and a couple of random planets, and they won't be moving on their orbits anymore. It was causing too many designs problems (what if you were taken in sandwich between two colliding planets?). " Big Eve Pwiss take SKUNK
Treher Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.01 03:36:00 - [8] yes, i agree, ouch. ______________________________________________________ I forget which station container has my memory implants.
zibelthurdos Archron Dusyfe Industries	Posted - 2007.06.01 04:01:00 - [9] Edited by: zibelthurdos on 01/06/2007 04:05:49 not to rain on your parade, but did you happen to notice the date on the thread you are quoting? funny thing is, that is probably what they will eventually end up with. i once asked in the forums there how solar systems will be stored and was told, "oh they won't be stored they will be randomly generated" ya, ok, and when i build my uber space mining facility they promised is it gonne be there in the morning? another point, what is the point of such a vast galaxy anyway? most of 0.0 that we have here is underpopulated as it is.
Chelone	Posted - 2007.06.01 04:03:00 - [10] Edited by: Chelone on 01/06/2007 04:05:51 They really aren't helping their credibility using 5th grade humor directed at Eve. Edit: Wait... BILLIONS of planets? So if they get a playerbase of 10000, there will be less than 1 person for every 100000 planets? Someone get me a mining laser! (There is such a thing as too much reality, hopefully they get smacked in the face with that realization before it's too late to save their game. Also, the premise seems a bit lacking...)
Chelone	Posted - 2007.06.01 04:21:00 - [11] Edited by: Chelone on 01/06/2007 04:24:18 Originally by: zibelthurdos i once asked in the forums there how solar systems will be stored and was told, "oh they won't be stored they will be randomly generated" ya, ok, and when i build my uber space mining facility they promised is it gonne be there in the morning? Actually, there isn't really an inherent problem with this, assuming the "random" quote is a misunderstanding of the mechanics. Ever heard of a (now ancient) game called "Rescue on Fractalus"? It was a pretty awesome shooter for it's day, but what made it really interesting was that it used fractals for terrain generation - hills and valleys and whatnot, incredibly primitive by todays standards. So you were playing on this little 8-bit computer with 64K of RAM (or less), flying over terrain which seemed to stretch out forever and which would be completely impossible to store in that tiny amount of RAM, yet it was completely believable - you could fly for a long time, turn around and the terrain was the same as you had left it. You could roam around over lots of 2D landscape and back again, and it was all seemingly "real", not random. I believe they could apply the same mathematical principles with today's hardware, and generate an entire "fractal galaxy" of 100 billion systems, which would be completely believable and consistent. Now, if you want to add dynamic player content into those systems, that is what would have to be stored. So presumably, when the players go out and make their mark in this (hopefully fractal) galaxy, their actions will be stored and somehow interact with each other, even when offline. (Now that I think about it, I believe SimCity for SNES used a similar fractal algorithm for its terrain generation, but I'm not certain of that.) Anyway, regardless of whether it can be done, having billions of planets seems simply absurd, unless 99.99% of the game content is going to be PvE. I'm fine with PvE but ... why make it online then? Give me a 100 billion system fractal universe offline to play around in, with an interesting plot and game mechanics. Might hold me for a few months.
JoeT Amarr Short Attention Span Nex Eternus	Posted - 2007.06.01 04:24:00 - [12] its been in the making for quite a while. I remeber playing very early test copy back in 05
Hajyt Caldari EnTech Pax Familia	Posted - 2007.06.01 04:43:00 - [13] The space entry to the planet video was pretty neat. Billions of planets sounds good on paper but would be a horrible idea in game. People don't want a billion different types of guns, or planets, or ships.....just a reasonable amount that work nice and balance each other.
Sc0rpion	Posted - 2007.06.01 04:47:00 - [14] Originally by: zibelthurdos i once asked in the forums there how solar systems will be stored and was told, "oh they won't be stored they will be randomly generated" I don't think you quite understand what they are doing (which isn't really surprising, since it requires a good foundation in fractals). I'm guessing they are building their "random" universe on an L-system. Basically, if you plug in some simple values (for example - diameter, distance from sun, mass, etc.) against a set of fixed rules (say...Newtonian physics), you can generate a "random" object, and that object will be the same every time it is called back. Even the textures could be generated in this way. And since each of those variables can be reduced to a 32 bit floating point number (or I guess 64 bit now...), you can generate staggering volumes of unique objects from very small data sets, without the overhead of actually storing those objects or hiring staff to make them. In theory, all they have to do is populate the database with some random variables, and the game client would construct everything at runtime. Then if you later visit one of those systems and "build an uber space mining facility", the DB entry is made just like it is here. Voila! Persistant content. A good example of how this works is to go to a video arcade and watch a game on "demo" mode. The true secret to enjoying life is to live it dangerously. -Friedrich Nietzsche Killmails are for pooftas.
Borgholio Minmatar Quantum Industries Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2007.06.01 04:59:00 - [15] Originally by: Chelone Ever heard of a (now ancient) game called "Rescue on Fractalus"? That game was so much fun back in the day. I still have a copy around here somewhere. Hmm...now where did I bury my old Commodore 64? ----------------------------------- You will be assimilated...bunghole!
Borgholio Minmatar Quantum Industries Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2007.06.01 05:04:00 - [16] Originally by: Hajyt The space entry to the planet video was pretty neat. Billions of planets sounds good on paper but would be a horrible idea in game. People don't want a billion different types of guns, or planets, or ships.....just a reasonable amount that work nice and balance each other. I think what they're going for is size. One minor gripe I've had about the EVE galaxy is that it seems too small. Only a few thousand stars, and I can travel across the entire map in less than an hour with a fast ship. Doesn't really feel grand or epic. With billions of stars (just like a real galaxy), the scale of the thing will hit you right in the face. You can visit a core system if you want to interact with people, or you can point your ship out that way ----> and literally go where nobody has ever gone before. Personally I'd like to be able to explore a distant part of the galaxy for weeks on end without seeing another human player...then hit the hyperdrive and go to their version of Jita to sell my wares and refit my ship. It would add a real sense of adventure, IMO. ----------------------------------- You will be assimilated...bunghole!
Sc0rpion	Posted - 2007.06.01 05:25:00 - [17] Originally by: Borgholio I think what they're going for is size. One minor gripe I've had about the EVE galaxy is that it seems too small. Only a few thousand stars, and I can travel across the entire map in less than an hour with a fast ship. Doesn't really feel grand or epic. But it does force competition for resources, which is a good thing. But think about it - probably 2500 of the 5000 systems in EVE are completely unused. Can you imagine how deserted the game would feel if there were 100 billion systems here? The true secret to enjoying life is to live it dangerously. -Friedrich Nietzsche Killmails are for pooftas.
Xiaodown Lyran Procurement	Posted - 2007.06.01 05:47:00 - [18] Originally by: Chelone Edited by: Chelone on 01/06/2007 04:24:18 Originally by: zibelthurdos i once asked in the forums there how solar systems will be stored and was told, "oh they won't be stored they will be randomly generated" ya, ok, and when i build my uber space mining facility they promised is it gonne be there in the morning? Actually, there isn't really an inherent problem with this, assuming the "random" quote is a misunderstanding of the mechanics. Ever heard of a (now ancient) game called "Rescue on Fractalus"? It was a pretty awesome shooter for it's day, but what made it really interesting was that it used fractals for terrain generation - hills and valleys and whatnot, incredibly primitive by todays standards. So you were playing on this little 8-bit computer with 64K of RAM (or less), flying over terrain which seemed to stretch out forever and which would be completely impossible to store in that tiny amount of RAM, yet it was completely believable - you could fly for a long time, turn around and the terrain was the same as you had left it. You could roam around over lots of 2D landscape and back again, and it was all seemingly "real", not random. I believe they could apply the same mathematical principles with today's hardware, and generate an entire "fractal galaxy" of 100 billion systems, which would be completely believable and consistent. Now, if you want to add dynamic player content into those systems, that is what would have to be stored. So presumably, when the players go out and make their mark in this (hopefully fractal) galaxy, their actions will be stored and somehow interact with each other, even when offline. (Now that I think about it, I believe SimCity for SNES used a similar fractal algorithm for its terrain generation, but I'm not certain of that.) Anyway, regardless of whether it can be done, having billions of planets seems simply absurd, unless 99.99% of the game content is going to be PvE. I'm fine with PvE but ... why make it online then? Give me a 100 billion system fractal universe offline to play around in, with an interesting plot and game mechanics. Might hold me for a few months. Tribes did the fractal land thing. Oh, the time I wasted in 1999/2000 on Tribes. Ultra Renegades for the win. -- Lyran procurement is offering trit and mixed-min compression services to 0.0 alliances. Free transport to 0.5+ systems, 1 jump 0.4 sys for 10M. Contact me for details. Minimums apply.
Mecinia Lua Galactic Express Frontier Trade League	Posted - 2007.06.01 06:05:00 - [19] Gee wonder who's thread that was.... whistles innocently That's not the earliest thread dealing with the situation there, nor is it the latest one..... They are saying sometime in 2008 for possible release. I don't think it will be vaporware though it may not have all features at release. (Which is kinda typical of most MMOs) Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts.
Borgholio Minmatar Quantum Industries Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2007.06.01 06:05:00 - [20] Originally by: Sc0rpion Originally by: Borgholio I think what they're going for is size. One minor gripe I've had about the EVE galaxy is that it seems too small. Only a few thousand stars, and I can travel across the entire map in less than an hour with a fast ship. Doesn't really feel grand or epic. But it does force competition for resources, which is a good thing. But think about it - probably 2500 of the 5000 systems in EVE are completely unused. Can you imagine how deserted the game would feel if there were 100 billion systems here? With EVE's resource system, you're right. Based on this thread, it appears that it'll be rather pointless to go off on your own as it would cause you to lose money (you need to pay for fuel in the game). Thus, you'll have the core systems and frontier colony outposts where most of the people congregate. Infinity Forums Upon further reading, it also seems to be that Infinity is mainly a PvE game, while EVE is mainly a PvP game. Dev Post So I guess that means forcing people to compete for resources isn't high on the list of priorities. :) ----------------------------------- You will be assimilated...bunghole!
Alisha Zhada	Posted - 2007.06.01 08:32:00 - [21] Hmm, it looks like they're better with words than they are with actual attainable ingame goals. Vaporware really seems to cover it all apart from vaportalk, like "and the cities will be covered in GOLD and we'll all drive Ferrari's!", that sort of stuff.
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2007.06.01 08:34:00 - [22] Originally by: Alisha Zhada Hmm, it looks like they're better with words than they are with actual attainable ingame goals. Vaporware really seems to cover it all apart from vaportalk, like "and the cities will be covered in GOLD and we'll all drive Ferrari's!", that sort of stuff. Grr, these forums really are annoying, that was me (not that it matters). Yes, I use lasers, please stop laughing in the back.
Gaven Blands	Posted - 2007.06.01 09:29:00 - [23] From Infinity Admin: "GMs won't sit in any ship at all. They're here to help players and resolve problems. They will not be allowed to play the game on their GM account. They'll have to disconnect and log back on their non-GM account to play as a normal user." Well... that sucks. So they are going to have GMs. And they are going to have player accounts as well. I think what is clear is that Infinity have learned about as much as CCP have. ie, you can stiff your customers regularly and they will just take it and come back for more. What about Darkfall? Did they learn anything useful from all this, now that Infinity is off-the-menu? Eve: Cheats prosper.
SiJira	Posted - 2007.06.01 09:34:00 - [24] its all part of the game and if you believe in bad publicity then ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
DarkMatter Amarr Mineral Aquisition Group	Posted - 2007.06.01 09:57:00 - [25] Edited by: DarkMatter on 01/06/2007 09:59:39 I've been following Infinity's development, and have even modeled some ships for that game... Hauler T-Y9 It's going to be a great game IMO. Since it's a more realistic space sim, and not PvP centric, I think it will be much better than EVE as an all around space MMO... If all you want is griefing & PvP, you can play EVE. If you want something else, Infinity will be there for you... Building the homestead
SiJira	Posted - 2007.06.01 09:59:00 - [26] Originally by: DarkMatter I've been following Infinity's development, and have even modeled some ships for that game... It's going to be a great game IMO. Since it's a more realistic space sim, and not PvP centric, I think it will be much better than EVE as an all around space MMO... If all you want is griefing & PvP, you can play EVE. If you want something else, Infinity will be there for you... shameless advertising there i foresee the same and other messed up problems to come ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
Bienurdau Hywoaf Minmatar Matari Holo News Network	Posted - 2007.06.01 10:02:00 - [27] Originally by: Gaven Blands From Infinity Admin: "GMs won't sit in any ship at all. They're here to help players and resolve problems. They will not be allowed to play the game on their GM account. They'll have to disconnect and log back on their non-GM account to play as a normal user." Well... that sucks. So they are going to have GMs. And they are going to have player accounts as well. I think what is clear is that Infinity have learned about as much as CCP have. ie, you can stiff your customers regularly and they will just take it and come back for more. What about Darkfall? Did they learn anything useful from all this, now that Infinity is off-the-menu? Before that it mentions that GMs there will not be spawning stuff. Its kinda open but I do believe reading that thread quoted that it will be more carefully monitored from the beginning than has been done in EVE. Idea: Treaties Idea: Jump Rigs
Krulla Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.06.01 10:10:00 - [28] Originally by: Gaven Blands Well... that sucks. So they are going to have GMs. And they are going to have player accounts as well. Oh yes, a game without GMs would be so awesome. You do realize there hasn't been a single incident of GM cheating in EvE's history?
DarkMatter Amarr Mineral Aquisition Group	Posted - 2007.06.01 10:17:00 - [29] Quote: i foresee the same and other messed up problems to come Then just stick with EVE??? At least as space MMO players, we'll have a choice... Building the homestead
Pottsey Gallente Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2007.06.01 10:22:00 - [30] Edited by: Pottsey on 01/06/2007 10:22:12 i once asked in the forums there how solar systems will be stored and was told, "oh they won't be stored they will be randomly generated" ya, ok, and when i build my uber space mining facility they promised is it gonne be there in the morning?ö Elite 2 and 3 did it. Both games had a full galaxy with full systems in 3d and planet landings with 3D environments and cliffs e.c.t You could land next to a clock tower and watch the clock hands move with the correct ingame time. You would leave your mineing stuff on a planet and it would still be there a year later. As space games go Eve is tiny. ôBillions of planets sounds good on paper but would be a horrible idea in game.ö It worked very well in Elite 2 and 3. All you do is make the centre area civilised and the other areas empty. Passive shield tanking guide click here

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