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Savesti Kyrsst Minmatar White-Noise	Posted - 2007.06.01 14:40:00 - [31] He can still fly it, but he'll lose some of the shipbonus that comes from the BC skill.
Savesti Kyrsst Minmatar White-Noise	Posted - 2007.06.01 14:40:00 - [32] He can still fly it, but he'll lose some of the shipbonus that comes from the BC skill.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.06.01 14:44:00 - [33] Originally by: Wild Rho Would be a bug rather than an exploit. It doesn't give him any sort of unfair advantage (just the opposite really since he's now lost a small bonus from the bc skill) and it's not something he could control or even influence. Best to bug report it though. Do you lose benefits without BC5 trained? It has been a long time since last I thought about this (so I may be very wrong) but I thought the base stats listed already had the BC5 bonuses built in because presumably you can't fly the ship without BC5 trained. Again...I may be very wrong on that but I coulda sworn some stuff in EVE did this (base stats already applied bonuses listed because you had to have it at 5 and could not be otherwise).
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.06.01 14:44:00 - [34] Originally by: Wild Rho Would be a bug rather than an exploit. It doesn't give him any sort of unfair advantage (just the opposite really since he's now lost a small bonus from the bc skill) and it's not something he could control or even influence. Best to bug report it though. Do you lose benefits without BC5 trained? It has been a long time since last I thought about this (so I may be very wrong) but I thought the base stats listed already had the BC5 bonuses built in because presumably you can't fly the ship without BC5 trained. Again...I may be very wrong on that but I coulda sworn some stuff in EVE did this (base stats already applied bonuses listed because you had to have it at 5 and could not be otherwise).
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.01 14:47:00 - [35] nope it is all applied based on current skill level, you can tell this by looking at the base stats of a ship (for instance a lvl1 industrial) and then jumping into one with only one level of industrial skill (you can see the 5% bonus to speed and cargo) Real turtles tank armor. Real men fly Pink.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.01 14:47:00 - [36] nope it is all applied based on current skill level, you can tell this by looking at the base stats of a ship (for instance a lvl1 industrial) and then jumping into one with only one level of industrial skill (you can see the 5% bonus to speed and cargo) Real turtles tank armor. Real men fly Pink.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.06.01 14:54:00 - [37] Originally by: Tortun Nahme nope it is all applied based on current skill level, you can tell this by looking at the base stats of a ship (for instance a lvl1 industrial) and then jumping into one with only one level of industrial skill (you can see the 5% bonus to speed and cargo) Actually atleast in the assault frigate resistances, they are built into the ship(info atleast) and there's no change regardles of you being in it or not.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.06.01 14:54:00 - [38] Originally by: Tortun Nahme nope it is all applied based on current skill level, you can tell this by looking at the base stats of a ship (for instance a lvl1 industrial) and then jumping into one with only one level of industrial skill (you can see the 5% bonus to speed and cargo) Actually atleast in the assault frigate resistances, they are built into the ship(info atleast) and there's no change regardles of you being in it or not.
Mikal Drey Purgatorial Janitors Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.01 14:55:00 - [39] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Do you lose benefits without BC5 trained? It has been a long time since last I thought about this (so I may be very wrong) but I thought the base stats listed already had the BC5 bonuses built in because presumably you can't fly the ship without BC5 trained. Again...I may be very wrong on that but I coulda sworn some stuff in EVE did this (base stats already applied bonuses listed because you had to have it at 5 and could not be otherwise). The ship is already listed with BC V applied. When you showinfo on the ship the details you see are with the skill bonuses pre applied because its a requirement to have the skill trained. I know this for a FACT because CCP told me so. I remember cause when i first got an af i pettitioned because the bonuses didnt apply and i was sumarily told that its already pre done because you have FRIGATE V pre trained. the bonuses for the COMMAND ship skills dont apply untill you get in and fly the ship because they are dependent on skill level. its the same with TI ships but as they dont have pre req bonuses you have to jump in to discover what you get. I wish i could check my full pettition history so i could state this as FACT but i think you'll have to trust me :/
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.06.01 14:55:00 - [40] Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 01/06/2007 14:55:08 Originally by: Tortun Nahme nope it is all applied based on current skill level, you can tell this by looking at the base stats of a ship (for instance a lvl1 industrial) and then jumping into one with only one level of industrial skill (you can see the 5% bonus to speed and cargo) I understand that but if a skill MUST be level 5 to fly the ship and that same skill also is the basis for bonuses to that ship I thought the bonuses were just built in. So, since presumably no one can fly a CS without BC5 then I thought the skills listed under BC5 for CS are just there as supposedly it could not be otherwise. Again I may be wrong (almost certain something worked like this though)...just trying to sort my own ignorance here. EDIT: I posted this without seeing the other replies.
Leonard Darwin Rosewood Productions	Posted - 2007.06.01 14:55:00 - [41] Edited by: Leonard Darwin on 01/06/2007 14:55:52 If he is still able to train Commandships, it's a bug. I'd be quite interested to know if he could, especially if he already had a level partially trained However, if he has the top skills to fly the commandship, there ain't nothing wrong with it (imo). The prereqs are just to train the skills needed to fly - once you've learned how to fly it, who cares. It's like requirements to get into college. Many expect you to know certain things before you apply, but if you forget them before you enter, but after you've been accepted, they aren't going to kick you out. They reteach you the concepts you have to know for that particular concept, as I'd suspect whoever is teaching Commandships would reteach the necessary concepts from BC. So this pilot has the necessary BC knowledge to fly his ship based on his Command Ship level, but he has lost that extra edge by 'forgetting' some of the specifics taught by BC V.
Mikal Drey Purgatorial Janitors Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.01 14:55:00 - [42] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Do you lose benefits without BC5 trained? It has been a long time since last I thought about this (so I may be very wrong) but I thought the base stats listed already had the BC5 bonuses built in because presumably you can't fly the ship without BC5 trained. Again...I may be very wrong on that but I coulda sworn some stuff in EVE did this (base stats already applied bonuses listed because you had to have it at 5 and could not be otherwise). The ship is already listed with BC V applied. When you showinfo on the ship the details you see are with the skill bonuses pre applied because its a requirement to have the skill trained. I know this for a FACT because CCP told me so. I remember cause when i first got an af i pettitioned because the bonuses didnt apply and i was sumarily told that its already pre done because you have FRIGATE V pre trained. the bonuses for the COMMAND ship skills dont apply untill you get in and fly the ship because they are dependent on skill level. its the same with TI ships but as they dont have pre req bonuses you have to jump in to discover what you get. I wish i could check my full pettition history so i could state this as FACT but i think you'll have to trust me :/
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.06.01 14:55:00 - [43] Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 01/06/2007 14:55:08 Originally by: Tortun Nahme nope it is all applied based on current skill level, you can tell this by looking at the base stats of a ship (for instance a lvl1 industrial) and then jumping into one with only one level of industrial skill (you can see the 5% bonus to speed and cargo) I understand that but if a skill MUST be level 5 to fly the ship and that same skill also is the basis for bonuses to that ship I thought the bonuses were just built in. So, since presumably no one can fly a CS without BC5 then I thought the skills listed under BC5 for CS are just there as supposedly it could not be otherwise. Again I may be wrong (almost certain something worked like this though)...just trying to sort my own ignorance here. EDIT: I posted this without seeing the other replies.
Leonard Darwin Rosewood Productions	Posted - 2007.06.01 14:55:00 - [44] Edited by: Leonard Darwin on 01/06/2007 14:55:52 If he is still able to train Commandships, it's a bug. I'd be quite interested to know if he could, especially if he already had a level partially trained However, if he has the top skills to fly the commandship, there ain't nothing wrong with it (imo). The prereqs are just to train the skills needed to fly - once you've learned how to fly it, who cares. It's like requirements to get into college. Many expect you to know certain things before you apply, but if you forget them before you enter, but after you've been accepted, they aren't going to kick you out. They reteach you the concepts you have to know for that particular concept, as I'd suspect whoever is teaching Commandships would reteach the necessary concepts from BC. So this pilot has the necessary BC knowledge to fly his ship based on his Command Ship level, but he has lost that extra edge by 'forgetting' some of the specifics taught by BC V.
Trak Cranker Feral Tendency Ratel Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.01 14:56:00 - [45] Originally by: Mikal Drey Command Ships under PRE REQUIRED SKILLS you will see Battlecruiser V Quote: Yeah - to learn it. Not to apply it. For all we know. Originally by: Mikal Drey its a total FACT that everything has a list or REQUIRED skills and afaik you cannot use a module/ship without having EVERY SKILL ticked. Quote: Thats true. You are just way to encompassing in defining required skills for a specific item. Prereqs for a skill you need to operate an item, are just prereqs to learn it. Not to apply it. For all we know. Originally by: Mikal Drey Quote: Once the skill is in your head, the prereqs does not matter anymore have you ever though that this is bacause you cannot untrain skills or transfer sp to another skill. The Pre Reqs dont matter bacause you dont often lose the skill. Previously when you were podded all your SP down to the clone last updated was lost. this was considered way to harsh even for eve so now you only loose specific SP (not sure how its chosen) the new SISI character sheet show skil history so possibly this "bug/feature" may be addressed. Your "previously" must be a quite a long time ago. And its not conjecture and does not require a stance from CCP, when I say they have never required people to learn the prereqs now insufficient, when they upped the requirements on some skills - if you allready had the skill trained. That they have downgraded more often or not is irrelevant to that. Originally by: Mikal Drey now if a player is running around in a ship without having the required skills can others do the same ? You can't fly a ship without the required skills. That the skills required to _learn_ those skills are no longer up to date is another matter. Originally by: Mikal Drey or what would happen if i pod myself over and over again to remove quite a few pre reqs and still have the ability to fly/use stuff that i no longer have the knowledge to do ? See above. You can't fly ships without the required skills. If you have the knowledge of Command Ships, it does not matter that you have forgotten how to be a battlecruiser pilot. Originally by: Mikal Drey even if i use a RL example : if i had an accident and got selective amnesia and i was no longer able to remember how to pilot a plane do you honestly think they would let me take that 747 accross the atlantic with those customers ? Bad analogy. They might let you, if all you forgot, was how to do the math that gave you the grade to get into pilot school. Or even if you could no longer fly a Cessna - but cleared any test in the 747. You still know how to fly that plane. Originally by: Mikal Drey i know me english isnt often up to spec but i come from london so what do you expect. But i totally know that the word required means i must have it. And where does it state that you need BC V to fly a command ship? It doesn't. It says you need Command Ships I. It does not say Secondary Skill_s_ required over Command Ships I. It says Secondary Skill required. The stuff below Command Ships 1 is just to show you how to get there. For all we know.
Trak Cranker Feral Tendency Ratel Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.01 14:56:00 - [46] Originally by: Mikal Drey Command Ships under PRE REQUIRED SKILLS you will see Battlecruiser V Quote: Yeah - to learn it. Not to apply it. For all we know. Originally by: Mikal Drey its a total FACT that everything has a list or REQUIRED skills and afaik you cannot use a module/ship without having EVERY SKILL ticked. Quote: Thats true. You are just way to encompassing in defining required skills for a specific item. Prereqs for a skill you need to operate an item, are just prereqs to learn it. Not to apply it. For all we know. Originally by: Mikal Drey Quote: Once the skill is in your head, the prereqs does not matter anymore have you ever though that this is bacause you cannot untrain skills or transfer sp to another skill. The Pre Reqs dont matter bacause you dont often lose the skill. Previously when you were podded all your SP down to the clone last updated was lost. this was considered way to harsh even for eve so now you only loose specific SP (not sure how its chosen) the new SISI character sheet show skil history so possibly this "bug/feature" may be addressed. Your "previously" must be a quite a long time ago. And its not conjecture and does not require a stance from CCP, when I say they have never required people to learn the prereqs now insufficient, when they upped the requirements on some skills - if you allready had the skill trained. That they have downgraded more often or not is irrelevant to that. Originally by: Mikal Drey now if a player is running around in a ship without having the required skills can others do the same ? You can't fly a ship without the required skills. That the skills required to _learn_ those skills are no longer up to date is another matter. Originally by: Mikal Drey or what would happen if i pod myself over and over again to remove quite a few pre reqs and still have the ability to fly/use stuff that i no longer have the knowledge to do ? See above. You can't fly ships without the required skills. If you have the knowledge of Command Ships, it does not matter that you have forgotten how to be a battlecruiser pilot. Originally by: Mikal Drey even if i use a RL example : if i had an accident and got selective amnesia and i was no longer able to remember how to pilot a plane do you honestly think they would let me take that 747 accross the atlantic with those customers ? Bad analogy. They might let you, if all you forgot, was how to do the math that gave you the grade to get into pilot school. Or even if you could no longer fly a Cessna - but cleared any test in the 747. You still know how to fly that plane. Originally by: Mikal Drey i know me english isnt often up to spec but i come from london so what do you expect. But i totally know that the word required means i must have it. And where does it state that you need BC V to fly a command ship? It doesn't. It says you need Command Ships I. It does not say Secondary Skill_s_ required over Command Ships I. It says Secondary Skill required. The stuff below Command Ships 1 is just to show you how to get there. For all we know.
Mikal Drey Purgatorial Janitors Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.01 15:26:00 - [47] Quote: You can't fly a ship without the required skills. That the skills required to _learn_ those skills are no longer up to date is another matt you said it yourself YOU CANT FLY THE SHIP. its the OP's issue that he no longer has the required skills Quote: And where does it state that you need BC V to fly a command ship? It doesn't. It says you need Command Ships I. It does not say Secondary Skill_s_ required over Command Ships I. It says Secondary Skill required. The stuff below Command Ships 1 is just to show you how to get there. For all we know Claymore : *Battlecruiser-class vessels, designed to aid their allies on the battlefield. Quote:* See above. You can't fly ships without the required skills. If you have the knowledge of Command Ships, it does not matter that you have forgotten how to be a battlecruiser pilot. I would totally say you need to fly a BC for a BC classed ship and if you check the skill REQUIREMENT for a claymore you will se along long list of REQUIRED skills. BC V is there. as to the analogy its actually pretty to the point. If you had no knowledge of how to fly a 747 you would not be able to fly it. regardless of wether or not you had a certificate previously. You would be up in the sky looking at alot of knobs and dials praying to jeebus that someone hit the AP. If you have lost or forgotten the knowledge then you cant do it. If CCP comes out and states that the required skills listed under items/skills/ships are just for guidance and you dont actually need then imagine the problems its gonna cause. Not only that. if someone is running around in a ship with the same skills as others who cant fly it then thats also gonna be a problem. I certainly would love to pettition for some of my SP/skills to be removed because i dont need the Skill anymore and i only trained it because i needed it as a pre req.
Mikal Drey Purgatorial Janitors Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.01 15:26:00 - [48] Quote: You can't fly a ship without the required skills. That the skills required to _learn_ those skills are no longer up to date is another matt you said it yourself YOU CANT FLY THE SHIP. its the OP's issue that he no longer has the required skills Quote: And where does it state that you need BC V to fly a command ship? It doesn't. It says you need Command Ships I. It does not say Secondary Skill_s_ required over Command Ships I. It says Secondary Skill required. The stuff below Command Ships 1 is just to show you how to get there. For all we know Claymore : *Battlecruiser-class vessels, designed to aid their allies on the battlefield. Quote:* See above. You can't fly ships without the required skills. If you have the knowledge of Command Ships, it does not matter that you have forgotten how to be a battlecruiser pilot. I would totally say you need to fly a BC for a BC classed ship and if you check the skill REQUIREMENT for a claymore you will se along long list of REQUIRED skills. BC V is there. as to the analogy its actually pretty to the point. If you had no knowledge of how to fly a 747 you would not be able to fly it. regardless of wether or not you had a certificate previously. You would be up in the sky looking at alot of knobs and dials praying to jeebus that someone hit the AP. If you have lost or forgotten the knowledge then you cant do it. If CCP comes out and states that the required skills listed under items/skills/ships are just for guidance and you dont actually need then imagine the problems its gonna cause. Not only that. if someone is running around in a ship with the same skills as others who cant fly it then thats also gonna be a problem. I certainly would love to pettition for some of my SP/skills to be removed because i dont need the Skill anymore and i only trained it because i needed it as a pre req.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.01 15:30:00 - [49] Actually you are wrong, the claymore REQUIRES Cruiser 5 Command Ships 1 and Logistics 4 all other listed skills are prerquisites for TRAINING those skills, not necessary to fly the ship Real turtles tank armor. Real men fly Pink.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.01 15:30:00 - [50] Actually you are wrong, the claymore REQUIRES Cruiser 5 Command Ships 1 and Logistics 4 all other listed skills are prerquisites for TRAINING those skills, not necessary to fly the ship Real turtles tank armor. Real men fly Pink.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.06.01 15:34:00 - [51] Originally by: Tortun Nahme Actually you are wrong, the claymore REQUIRES Cruiser 5 Command Ships 1 and Logistics 4 all other listed skills are prerquisites for TRAINING those skills, not necessary to fly the ship No...as said before...the prequisites for training a skill are in the skillbook info, the prequisites for flying a ship are in the ship info. A ship needs ALL, primary and secondary(and the third thingy), skills to fly. Otherwise you could have learned the command ship, then you wouldn't care which level 5 skills you lose. Heck, you could lose all of them and still be able to fly it.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.06.01 15:34:00 - [52] Originally by: Tortun Nahme Actually you are wrong, the claymore REQUIRES Cruiser 5 Command Ships 1 and Logistics 4 all other listed skills are prerquisites for TRAINING those skills, not necessary to fly the ship No...as said before...the prequisites for training a skill are in the skillbook info, the prequisites for flying a ship are in the ship info. A ship needs ALL, primary and secondary(and the third thingy), skills to fly. Otherwise you could have learned the command ship, then you wouldn't care which level 5 skills you lose. Heck, you could lose all of them and still be able to fly it.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.01 15:35:00 - [53] you can say what you like, the simple fact is you can fly the ship with just those three skills, if you lose the others due to being podded Real turtles tank armor. Real men fly Pink.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.01 15:35:00 - [54] you can say what you like, the simple fact is you can fly the ship with just those three skills, if you lose the others due to being podded Real turtles tank armor. Real men fly Pink.
Mikal Drey Purgatorial Janitors Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.01 15:38:00 - [55] Originally by: Tortun Nahme Actually you are wrong, the claymore REQUIRES Cruiser 5 Command Ships 1 and Logistics 4 all other listed skills are prerquisites for TRAINING those skills, not necessary to fly the ship You need EVERY skill listed under the required skill list. Signature analysis V is also required to fly the ship. you are not supposed to be able to fly a ship without EVERY box ticked. this goes for every item/mod/ship ingame. unless you have a full green list of ticks then you cannot use/fly it. Train up an alt with just those skills and try it.
Mikal Drey Purgatorial Janitors Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.01 15:38:00 - [56] Originally by: Tortun Nahme Actually you are wrong, the claymore REQUIRES Cruiser 5 Command Ships 1 and Logistics 4 all other listed skills are prerquisites for TRAINING those skills, not necessary to fly the ship You need EVERY skill listed under the required skill list. Signature analysis V is also required to fly the ship. you are not supposed to be able to fly a ship without EVERY box ticked. this goes for every item/mod/ship ingame. unless you have a full green list of ticks then you cannot use/fly it. Train up an alt with just those skills and try it.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.01 15:41:00 - [57] SA V is required to get logistics the only way you can GET all those skills is to have the rest, the only way to have less is to lose sp to being podded if you lose the sp and lose one or more of the subskills you do not lose use of any of those 3 and can still fly the ship Real turtles tank armor. Real men fly Pink.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.01 15:41:00 - [58] SA V is required to get logistics the only way you can GET all those skills is to have the rest, the only way to have less is to lose sp to being podded if you lose the sp and lose one or more of the subskills you do not lose use of any of those 3 and can still fly the ship Real turtles tank armor. Real men fly Pink.
Mikal Drey Purgatorial Janitors Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.01 16:01:00 - [59] Originally by: Tortun Nahme SA V is required to get logistics the only way you can GET all those skills is to have the rest, the only way to have less is to lose sp to being podded if you lose the sp and lose one or more of the subskills you do not lose use of any of those 3 and can still fly the ship okies. i'll go with that logic. And also ask WHY ? The OP has stated just like you have that he no longer has a pre required skill and therefore is confused why he still has the ability to fly the shp. IF the pre reuisits arent actually required to fly the ship doesnt this negate actually training them in the first place ? It also doenst really matter how it happened he no longer has skills required that are listed as a requirement. If a player is running around flying a ship that others have but he doesnt have the equivilant skills then surely we have a conflict of rules/ gameplay etc. i would certainly have an issue if someone had less skills to fly a ship than i needed. EVERY box is supposed to be ticked when you undock and be the same for everyone and not because of a bug/feature. also isnt the whole idea of having an upto date clone to prevent the loss of SP and therfore the ability to use stuff ? ive seen no oficial stance anywhere on this and ive had corpmates get podded and loose the ability to fly their TII ships. as usual with this game theres no real clarity. maybe the new character sheet on SISI is to address this Question.
Mikal Drey Purgatorial Janitors Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.01 16:01:00 - [60] Originally by: Tortun Nahme SA V is required to get logistics the only way you can GET all those skills is to have the rest, the only way to have less is to lose sp to being podded if you lose the sp and lose one or more of the subskills you do not lose use of any of those 3 and can still fly the ship okies. i'll go with that logic. And also ask WHY ? The OP has stated just like you have that he no longer has a pre required skill and therefore is confused why he still has the ability to fly the shp. IF the pre reuisits arent actually required to fly the ship doesnt this negate actually training them in the first place ? It also doenst really matter how it happened he no longer has skills required that are listed as a requirement. If a player is running around flying a ship that others have but he doesnt have the equivilant skills then surely we have a conflict of rules/ gameplay etc. i would certainly have an issue if someone had less skills to fly a ship than i needed. EVERY box is supposed to be ticked when you undock and be the same for everyone and not because of a bug/feature. also isnt the whole idea of having an upto date clone to prevent the loss of SP and therfore the ability to use stuff ? ive seen no oficial stance anywhere on this and ive had corpmates get podded and loose the ability to fly their TII ships. as usual with this game theres no real clarity. maybe the new character sheet on SISI is to address this Question.

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