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A year later, warp to zero.

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JADE DRAG0NESS Native Freshfood	Posted - 2007.06.03 18:18:00 - [61] Originally by: Ogdru Jahad WTZ has not been out for ONE YEAR! Reading comprehension FTW!!! He never said Warp to 0 has been out a year, he said he was away from eve for a year. "Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Jean Rostand
Paul Castrin Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.06.03 18:25:00 - [62] Originally by: Nero Scuro As for WTZ? It still sucks. People STILL don't realise that travel was long, tedious and boring on purpose, because you were supposed to settle in one region and not jump from one side of the galaxy to the other in an afternoon. Explain the jump portals on Titans then? Designed specifically for this in mind. So in effect WTZ is about the same only it takes work and not massive piles of isk and minerals, plus you can do it in any section of space (unlike the jump portal of a Titan). Oh and doing a 30 jump WTZ run in anything is just as tedious, maybe more so cause you can't afk the trip! Originally by: Nero Scuro Fleets of BS weren't supposed to fly halfway across the galaxy in an hour or two, attack an opposing alliance's systems them melt away before resistance could be formed, that was for HAC/inty gangs. BS were for defence and slooooow fleets that could be outmanuvered and flanked. See above. Also any force is for attack, not just defense. Anyone that stays rooted in one place will be surrounded and wiped out in no time unless they have extreme supperiority in numbers. And we all know how well that works on the EVE nodes. Originally by: Nero Scuro BS and indys weren't supposed to be as fast as frigates. They aren't and WTZ doesn't change the parity in that regard. A BS takes just as long to get to warp as it ever did. In that time a well outfitted group can scram, web, damp, and roast that unit easily when they jump in. In zero space you have 'dictors and bubbles to help as well to make their lives very short. WTZ does help those in the smallest craft however, they have a much higher survival chance now, even in zero space. About the only thing that can catch a shuttle (if not bubbled when it jumped in) is a 'dictor or a inty. If it's one of those then chasing them is a waste of time. So it's simply given an edge to the smallest ships more than anything. continued...
Paul Castrin Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.06.03 18:33:00 - [63] Originally by: Nero Scuro And EVE's 'huge' universe wasn't supposed to be trivialised and reduced to the point where one system could provide the needs of the ENTIRE playerbase, it was supposed to support regional markets. This is a Jita argument and really irrelavent. It's mega corps and alliances that have made Jita. WTZ has no effect on where those groups sell their wares. There are other markets out there but the name 'Jita' and 'Rens' and 'Oursulaert' are firmly in the players minds when they are looking for something. Simple supply and demand. Originally by: Nero Scuro With jumpclones added there really is no reason for it to remain. Let no bookmarks be made near a stargate and remove WTZ. I said it a year and a half ago and it's still as true then as now. Jumpclones are still mainly something that well established (or single man) corps and alliances can utilize because of the requirements. WTZ provides those with the ability to ACTIVELY move their limited resources from point to point a bit more quickly. I see no reason that you would want to penalize the small guy, unless you have something to gain from that. WTZ is fine as is, it's a pita for those of us trying to stop people but we have adapted. It's a handy tool for those that want to get from point A to point G and don't want to watch their ship auto pilot for the next 45 min or till their eyes bleed (the later is sure to happen first). People can still afk to their destination is they want to take the chance but those that want to PLAY the game have WTZ. A good compromise IMHO. Peace.
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2007.06.03 19:21:00 - [64] Quote: Warp to zero was a major nerf to low sec piracy. In 0.0 you can bubble and dictor but in low sec you're screwed...unless you jump through with victim and tries to get them at other side of gate....but then you would need a whole gatecamp to spread around the gate = CCP obviously want more blobbing. Maybe the problem is you and the other low sec carebear pirates. I have always found it funny low sec chicken sh1ts always whine for more empire carebears to be forced into low sec, when really the issue is FORCING the low sec carebear pirates out into 0.0. If you think it is so bad move to 0.0 where you can bubble oh oh though you cannot be safe while pirating what will you do!!!!! O.o
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.03 19:22:00 - [65] Originally by: Tolomea [While I love my invulnerable interceptor, I do think it's somewhat over powered. I also like the idea of moving the battle back to the other side of the gate. Jumping through gates is now like russian roulette and there is no fun in that. The proposed mod to gate mechanics would nerf my ceptor, fix the russian roulette nature of travel, nerf lowsec pirates a bit more and make it possible to actually lock down a gate so no one gets through. Sounds like a good thing all around. I like and approve warp to zero, but I don't argue that some of the argument against have some value. But moving the danger from the jump in to the jump out is totally wrong for 1 single reason you have perfectly pointed Quote: make it possible to actually lock down a gate so no one gets through . That is the biggest reason against the proposed change. It will lock entire regions at the chocke points, without chance of move throug thank to sthealt instead of brute force. So the only metod of entry in those regions will become gettin there the bigger blob. Not an improvement
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.03 19:25:00 - [66] I don't like it. The thrill and adrenaline I used to get jsut going from A to B is practically gone. Unless I run in to a bubble camp, I know I'm untouchable as long as I'm in a fast aligning ship. I think it was a big old sell out from CCP. I understand why they did it, but I wish they'd just stuck with their guns. --------
Darth Vaders	Posted - 2007.06.03 19:47:00 - [67] I really like it the way it is today. At least for the new gamer it is much friendlier. NUT i understand the point of the ones who complain and after some thought i think myself that it would be better to remove Warp to 0 in favor for Warp to 20KM. That way we would still keep the good points of the "Warp to" but remove the not so immercive aspects of it like the fact that ambushes etc are now much harder. So the universe loses credibility the way it is now whereareas with a slight change to Warp to 20KM would be a solution that both sides could agree.
DJTheBaron Caldari FATAL REVELATIONS FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.03 19:48:00 - [68] Warp to 0 should not exist in empire until there is a counter to it in lowsec or highsec for parties involved in war. (BM within xkm of gates/stations should be blocked also in empire to prevent people reusing instas) In 0.0 it is acceptiable because god invented bubbles and dictors, in empire there is no counter for warp to 0 in combat. Empire also feels empty because there are no ques of ships outside stations (except undocking ramps in jita) and no traffic at gates, the game has lost its feel. I remember after insulting the entire audience at ff06 in the dev q&a, part of my question was answered stating dictors were being consideres for lowsec but this has not happened. "The Views & Opinions Expressed In This Post Represent Those of My Corporation & Alliance. So Go ** Yourself" DJTheBaron: FATAL Alliance Diplomat**
Earthan Gallente The Absolutely Amazing Fire Eaters Breidablik	Posted - 2007.06.03 20:05:00 - [69] Warp to 0 is fine. What was before the bms stuff , copying selling was sick and insane. What really made the universe small is carrers and titans and jump clones, not wtz. No judging if its good or bad. Tough i could see benefit in removing warp to zero to gates but also not allwoing any bms near gate (no instas no warp to zero, mwd to travel faster,fast ships get important) (as op said bs with warp to zero are only little slower then inties) - Killing Eve bullies all over the galaxy hunting stories
William Alex Viscosity Dark Synergy	Posted - 2007.06.03 20:44:00 - [70] Originally by: DJTheBaron Warp to 0 should not exist in empire until there is a counter to it in lowsec or highsec for parties involved in war. (BM within xkm of gates/stations should be blocked also in empire to prevent people reusing instas) In 0.0 it is acceptiable because god invented bubbles and dictors, in empire there is no counter for warp to 0 in combat.... Correct me if I'm wrong but you're saying that 0.0 shouldn't be more dangerous than low-sec? That's what i'm picking up from your words. Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.
BluOrange Gallente Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.06.04 04:52:00 - [71] Originally by: William Alex Originally by: DJTheBaron Warp to 0 should not exist in empire until there is a counter to it in lowsec or highsec for parties involved in war. (BM within xkm of gates/stations should be blocked also in empire to prevent people reusing instas) In 0.0 it is acceptiable because god invented bubbles and dictors, in empire there is no counter for warp to 0 in combat.... Correct me if I'm wrong but you're saying that 0.0 shouldn't be more dangerous than low-sec? That's what i'm picking up from your words. That's not my read of it. I think that he's saying he wants some way to force engagements in highsec - the reality is that it's very hard to get your opponent to fight without a bubble or a dictor. (And even then, a smart opponent may still find their way past you.) Highsec and lowsec warfare is spectacularly frustrating - combine warp core stabilizers with coldwarp from a gate and forcing an engagement with anything more maneuverable than a battleship requires you to bring a lot of fast-locking tacklers. Then again, as you say, 0.0 is the place where warfare is really supposed to take place. ------ Agony Unleashed is recruiting.
zibelthurdos Archron Dusyfe Industries	Posted - 2007.06.04 04:53:00 - [72] Edited by: zibelthurdos on 04/06/2007 04:54:35 wow, it's already been a year? //edit ooops my bad.. reading FTW... i personally love warp to zero, i remember all the whining that was done when it came in about gatecamps being ruined. personally i haven't seen any fewer camps because of it.
Judge Ment ECMI	Posted - 2007.06.04 04:56:00 - [73] Originally by: zibelthurdos wow, it's already been a year? No
zibelthurdos Archron Dusyfe Industries	Posted - 2007.06.04 04:58:00 - [74] Edited by: zibelthurdos on 04/06/2007 04:56:45 Originally by: Judge Ment Originally by: zibelthurdos wow, it's already been a year? No sometimes my sense of time is a bit distorted.
Judge Ment ECMI	Posted - 2007.06.04 05:03:00 - [75] Originally by: zibelthurdos Edited by: zibelthurdos on 04/06/2007 04:56:45 Originally by: Judge Ment Originally by: zibelthurdos wow, it's already been a year? No sometimes my sense of time is a bit distorted. I'm just Distorted
Solid Prefekt	Posted - 2007.06.04 06:06:00 - [76] I just recently came back to the game and personally I think WTZ is probably the single best improvement they have done in a while. Now if they could get Reload All to work every time for missiles I will be one really happy person.
Ecky X The Aforementioned SYSTEM SHOCK INITIATIVE	Posted - 2007.06.04 08:01:00 - [77] Warp to 0km makes life a lot easier for me, but that isn't what EVE is about. In counterstrike, if they made it so whoever spots the other guy first wins, that would make it easier for you if you like to camp, no? Find a good hiding spot, on the other side of a door, ehem. Camping on the other side of gates has done terrible things for EVE. Instas had to go. Nonetheless, WTZ does nothing good for gameplay. I would be happy with warp to 5km, personally, because then I'd have some incentive to fly a frigate or cruiser. Everyone flies a BC+, and 3/4 don't bother to fit an afterburner or MWD because they're just a waste of a slot, unless you're a pirate. A battleship can travel more quickly now than a shuttle could before, and I don't agree with that. -----
DeadDuck Amarr Infinite Improbability Inc Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2007.06.04 08:03:00 - [78] Well lag was reduced... only for that it was worth it .
Hugh Ruka Caldari Free Traders	Posted - 2007.06.04 08:58:00 - [79] WTZ while nice and handy removed a part of the gameplay. When you were going to settle in a new region you either: a. sent scouts to create instas or b. bought instas from sellers Now you just WTZ and it's done. Lowsec and Empire made it for the worse, now it is almost impossible to wage war in Empire, there's no sensible way to force your enemy to combat other than camp the incomming gate. At least for lowsec, there could be some option like dictor bubbles. Originally by: JP Beauregard The experience with Exodus playtesting has scarred me for life. Those were bug-reports, not feature requests, you numbskulls....
Mr Friendly That it Should Come to This	Posted - 2007.06.04 09:12:00 - [80] WTZ still allows for camps, still allows for 0.0 bubbles, still allows for ganking. It also still allows for easier and safer travel in many cases. I don't see a huge difference between BM's and WTZ. Additionallly, now we don't have 6k BM's to deal with and nor do the servers. Overall, It's a good change.
Godar Marak Amarr Return Of Red Dawn	Posted - 2007.06.04 09:16:00 - [81] Edited by: Godar Marak on 04/06/2007 09:16:24 Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 Maybe the problem is you and the other low sec carebear pirates. I have always found it funny low sec chicken sh1ts always whine for more empire carebears to be forced into low sec, when really the issue is FORCING the low sec carebear pirates out into 0.0. If you think it is so bad move to 0.0 where you can bubble oh oh though you cannot be safe while pirating what will you do!!!!! O.o Listen n00b I pirate in borh 0.0 and low sec, unlike you I actually know what I'm talking about. Why dont you stop being a fanatic and accept the facts that are presented by todays mechanics? And what makes us 'chicken sh1t's'? the fact that we blow up your unarmed hauler? -------------------- '\0/\0/\0/\0/\0/' Cant we all just get along?
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2007.06.04 09:43:00 - [82] Quote: I don't like it. The thrill and adrenaline I used to get jsut going from A to B is practically gone. Unless I run in to a bubble camp, I know I'm untouchable as long as I'm in a fast aligning ship. Sorry my crap detector just blew up... I mean let's be real if you don;t like WTZ because you miss the thrills etc, then don;t use it and warp to 15km...So I am calling your bluff about missing the adrenaline and excitement. YOu miss killing noobs without BM's, and I 'll bet you used BM's yourself to get around. Again keep in mind before you reply that you are not forced to WTZ you can still warp to 15 if you really enjoyed it...
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2007.06.04 09:47:00 - [83] Quote: Warp to 0 should not exist in empire until there is a counter to it in lowsec or highsec for parties involved in war. (BM within xkm of gates/stations should be blocked also in empire to prevent people reusing instas) In 0.0 it is acceptiable because god invented bubbles and dictors, in empire there is no counter for warp to 0 in combat. Seems you should be moving to 0.0 then shouldn't you.....stop preying on carebears in empire. IMHO it seems obvious that empire was designed specifically to provide a different type of gameplay experience than 0.0 so stop hugging empire for the safety it grants you while you pick on non-combat empire corps and move to 0.0
Leto Nyx Neogen Industries Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.04 09:50:00 - [84] Edited by: Leto Nyx on 04/06/2007 09:49:16 WTZ: I hate it. It's Eve dumbed down. Eve on easy mode. I used to be wary about venturing into low sec. I would feel a frisson of fear run through me as I jumped in. I don't get that any more, and it's a shame. It makes Eve that little bit less exciting. Also, as has been said before, it means I can travel 30-40 jumps almost as quickly in a battleship or fully laden hauler as I can in a small, fast frigate or interceptor. That detracts from the feel of Eve, makes it a less immersive environment. And therefore less fun. Sure, I lose less ships than I used to, and I get around faster. That makes it easier to make more money. But then, it makes it easier for every other idiot to make more money too, which devalues the money that I have. So really, I'm no better off. Get rid of WTZ - Eve was more fun without it. Don't allow BMs to come back either. Reduce the warp to range from 15k to around 10k/7k or so, so that travel doesn't take too long. Allow AB / MWD to be automatically fired up by the autopilot for all the afk-ers. ----- Some people are like Slinkies - not really good for anything but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down the stairs
Ashaz Mindstar Technology United Confederation of Corporations	Posted - 2007.06.04 10:02:00 - [85] I think the WTZ made traveling realy comfy. a system 10 jumps away isn't even far away anymore. it takes 10 minutes instead of an hour. Altho, nice as it may be, I would honestly prefer the bigger universe where it would take a long time to get to the other end. It realy made you feel the distance. Make it warp to 5 km instead atleast and add the "no bookmarks within 100km of a gate" rule. It would make the game more interesting again, and a BS would feel like a big heavy slow chunk of metal again. Also make local work like normal channels where people don't appear untill they open their mouths. I know I wouldn't be deep into 0.0 alone in my battleship right now if that was how it worked. Also, imagine how fun it would be to sneak into an enermy system just to mess with them. pie1: cough pie2: ssssh! pie3: sut up you two! They'll hear us! Miner: ****! Warp guys! warp!
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2007.06.04 10:14:00 - [86] Originally by: Ashaz Altho, nice as it may be, I would honestly prefer the bigger universe where it would take a long time to get to the other end. It realy made you feel the distance. If it is only the "warp to"-distance that determines the size of the universe, why don't we get rid of all of it and only allow warp to 100km? That would be some huge universe, wouldn't it? And low sec pirating really is more like PvE with a PvP label slapped on, because as long as the loot is good those pirates don't really care if they shoot players or npcs.
Selene Le'Cotiere	Posted - 2007.06.04 11:02:00 - [87] Originally by: Ashaz Also, imagine how fun it would be to sneak into an enermy system just to mess with them. pie1: cough pie2: ssssh! pie3: sut up you two! They'll hear us! Miner: ***! Warp guys! warp! ... LMAO that's simply precious... I can just see it now. LOL looks over shoulder nervously* I gotta agree though... WTZ is nice, in that it makes life a bit simpler, it has also taken some of the edge off when going through low sec areas. Except, when jumping blind into a camp... that gets the blood going.
Lady Abaris kleptomaniacs	Posted - 2007.06.04 11:43:00 - [88] Edited by: Lady Abaris on 04/06/2007 11:43:56 Along with the increasing of ship hitpoints, WTZ has contributed to the decline of belt piracy and solo piracy for good or bad. This is due to the decreased response time that both the pirate and victim enjoy when calling for back up when things kickoff. Pre-WTZ unless your buddies had instas or where nextdoor to your system it was pretty much a set fight between pirate and who ever was in local. Now back up can be summoned from 6-7 jumps away and contribute meaningfully to the fight. Lowsec has as a result fewer npcers, miners and solo pirates in it than pre-WTZ. Add to the equation that pirates have adapted their gate camps effectively the end result is lowsec risk has increased hugely and the chance of encountering solo pirates has decreased. Still at least the game is lag free with all those BM's removed.
Rabbitual Ferrier	Posted - 2007.06.04 11:53:00 - [89] Originally by: DJTheBaron Warp to 0 should not exist in empire until there is a counter to it in lowsec or highsec for parties involved in war. (BM within xkm of gates/stations should be blocked also in empire to prevent people reusing instas) In 0.0 it is acceptiable because god invented bubbles and dictors, in empire there is no counter for warp to 0 in combat. Empire also feels empty because there are no ques of ships outside stations (except undocking ramps in jita) and no traffic at gates, the game has lost its feel. I remember after insulting the entire audience at ff06 in the dev q&a, part of my question was answered stating dictors were being consideres for lowsec but this has not happened. Definately - the war has become a rather tiresome situation of wtz and dock movement, presenting a dirth of tactical options, essentially making wardecs pointless unless the otherside want to fight (even if they're the declaring war party). Tactics require you to be sat around with your scrambler on hoping that you might just get a break in the timing between the target being 'invulnerable' and 'warp distruptions' or 'left space'. And if you're in anything larger than a frigate, forget it. It used to be that undocking during a war meant being a part of it, where as now its more a case of just wtz and jump - the only hope really is that either they slip in spaming for the jump, or collide with debris when warping (although if you drop cannisters you're griefing). Make it warp to 7.5 km, or even 5km, which gives everyone a chance....
Godar Marak Amarr Return Of Red Dawn	Posted - 2007.06.04 12:05:00 - [90] Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 Seems you should be moving to 0.0 then shouldn't you.....stop preying on carebears in empire. IMHO it seems obvious that empire was designed specifically to provide a different type of gameplay experience than 0.0 so stop hugging empire for the safety it grants you while you pick on non-combat empire corps and move to 0.0 EVE is based on PVP not PVE. The fact that pirates can prey on carebears is what seperates EVE from wow. It's what makes EVE interesting. You want wow, so go there. Dont pollute EVE with your rubbish carebear attitude. -------------------- '\0/\0/\0/\0/\0/' Cant we all just get along?

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