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madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.06.05 12:08:00 - [1] Fighters cost the price of well (read T2) fitted cruiser, mineralcost of a BC or insurance of a T1 bs. While they deal the dps of a frigate. 16-20 mil each fighter, a decent carrier will launch atleast 10-12 of these. So about 200 mil worth of fighters in space. These fighters are vulnerable, its the first thing people will gun down. They also suffer from bugs. Together they deal good DPS, but arent they simply too expensive? Shouldnt a fighter based on its performance cost 8-10 mil? Which is still very expensive considering you can allways CTD. So instead of having 400 mil worth of fighters, why not balance is better and make 2 waves cost +-200 mil. 10 mil each fighter is expensive enough, 20 is simply insane imo. _________________________________________________ Breetime A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Heikki Gallente Wreckless Abandon Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.06.05 12:41:00 - [2] Originally by: madaluap simply too expensive .. you can allways CTD Our free market seems to indicate they are not expensive, but rather actively used. The price just indicates how much care you should give to them. In risky situation you can always opt to use one of hundreds regular drones you also have in the bay. Anyway, CCP seems to have realised the CTD issue as well. Currently the fastest way to get all fighters back to the bay is CTD and log back.. -Lasse against the nerf
Alpine 69 Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.06.05 12:52:00 - [3] LoL heikki that part about ctd's Sweet love for the ones that mod my sig <3
SasRipper DIE WITH HONOUR	Posted - 2007.06.05 13:04:00 - [4] agreed I just love it when my fighters are getting shot by sentrys & decide to strole back. me > FFS GET IN THE BLEEDEN BAY! My favourite sitution was sentrys were on a lone fighter so there I was repping it away all was fine, it got a nick taken out of its structure & I lost control of it even though it was in armour of corse it died. Another favorite of mine is launching on a station & my fighters end up on the other side bumping all the way back. there heavy expensive & buggy you gota love it snip Sas has spoken this tread shall be locked.
Sokratesz Paradox v2.0 Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.05 15:05:00 - [5] If they nerf the build cost industrials will yell. Sig removed. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] with a link to your signature. - Elmo Pug
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.06.05 15:34:00 - [6] Originally by: Sokratesz If they nerf the build cost industrials will yell. No, because industrials will sell more of them, because people will pay less attention, more people want to try out carriers and they have to deal with less logistics. Just make sure you sell most of them before the changes take effect. Which is rather easy beause patchnotes are a couple months ahead of the actual patch anyway, in the meantime people wont think: "o they will drop in price, lets not fly my carrier for a couple months". _________________________________________________ Breetime A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
FawKa Gallente Old Farts Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.06.05 15:37:00 - [7] .. compared to how easy they die. Yes they cost too much.
goodby4u Logistic Technologies Incorporated Free Trade Coalition	Posted - 2007.06.05 15:39:00 - [8] Get everybody you know and their parents to stop buying fighters and their price will go down,easy as that. __________________________________________ Yes it is great being amarr. I am minmatar,fly amarr,use gellente drones and am in caldari space.
Dread Phantom Caldari Project-Chaos	Posted - 2007.06.05 15:46:00 - [9] price wont go down till the build cost goes down
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.06.05 16:02:00 - [10] Originally by: Dread Phantom price wont go down till the build cost goes down Yep, just like with T2 this fix needs to come from CCP _________________________________________________ Breetime A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Tuea	Posted - 2007.06.05 16:17:00 - [11] the % cost of a fighter to a carrier is similar to the % cost of an ogre II to a battleship (and of course much better than a BC or cruiser pilot with ogres). I think the cost is fine, as has been said just use normal drones if you're in a risky situation. You can't site risk as an issue anyway because losing your BS with tech 2 gear is both costly and highly likely on a daily basis. Losing your carrier is much less so.
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.06.05 16:35:00 - [12] Edited by: madaluap on 05/06/2007 16:39:31 Originally by: Tuea the % cost of a fighter to a carrier is similar to the % cost of an ogre II to a battleship (and of course much better than a BC or cruiser pilot with ogres). I think the cost is fine, as has been said just use normal drones if you're in a risky situation. You can't site risk as an issue anyway because losing your BS with tech 2 gear is both costly and highly likely on a daily basis. Losing your carrier is much less so. Buy a carrier, buy 2 waves of fighters. You just spend 50% of the value of the carrier on fighters. I dont see a dominix spend 50% of its value on his dronebay. After that you still need to fill the rest of the bay. If you lose bs on a daily basis you shouldnt be pvping. Its more like losing a bs once or twice every month. Im not claiming they should be deadcheap, but 20 mil is just way over the top. 10 mil would be more like it. edit: btw the % argument. A ogre 2 is 700k atm, a dominix (closest to a carrier) is 60 mil. Thats 1-85. A carrier to fighter is 1-45. So that doesnt hold water aswell. But lets say the % price of the drone on a dominix is the same a fighter for a carrier. Than the price would be: 900 mil:85= 10.588.235 ISK, not 18-20 mil. _________________________________________________ Breetime A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Alexander Knott Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.06.05 16:42:00 - [13] Given how common and effective carriers are, I don't think you'll see a price reduction on fighters. It seems that CCP has finally taken an interest in preventing this from becoming Capital Ships Online; reducing the cost of fighters would only undermine those efforts. ----- "I like to loot, especially going to the can of the battleship, sometimes there is a surprise inside, sometimes there is only carp..."
Derovius Vaden	Posted - 2007.06.05 17:36:00 - [14] Originally by: madaluap Edited by: madaluap on 05/06/2007 16:39:31 Originally by: Tuea the % cost of a fighter to a carrier is similar to the % cost of an ogre II to a battleship (and of course much better than a BC or cruiser pilot with ogres). I think the cost is fine, as has been said just use normal drones if you're in a risky situation. You can't site risk as an issue anyway because losing your BS with tech 2 gear is both costly and highly likely on a daily basis. Losing your carrier is much less so. Buy a carrier, buy 2 waves of fighters. You just spend 50% of the value of the carrier on fighters. I dont see a dominix spend 50% of its value on his dronebay. After that you still need to fill the rest of the bay. If you lose bs on a daily basis you shouldnt be pvping. Its more like losing a bs once or twice every month. Im not claiming they should be deadcheap, but 20 mil is just way over the top. 10 mil would be more like it. edit: btw the % argument. A ogre 2 is 700k atm, a dominix (closest to a carrier) is 60 mil. Thats 1-85. A carrier to fighter is 1-45. So that doesnt hold water aswell. But lets say the % price of the drone on a dominix is the same a fighter for a carrier. Than the price would be: 900 mil:85= 10.588.235 ISK, not 18-20 mil. If its so hard for you to buy fighters, than don't. Buy drones, or nothing.
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.06.05 17:45:00 - [15] Its not hard to buy the fighters, but imo they are just to expensive for what they do. Oh well, time to buy the bpo i guess. _________________________________________________ Breetime A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Tuea	Posted - 2007.06.05 18:15:00 - [16] i was working on rough figures in my head which were: ogre II = 1m (700k in some places) dominix = 50m fighter = 20m (17m in some places) carrier = 1b both are 50:1 give or take a few mil, and of course a 33m myrmidon & 5m vexor come out much worse. The half of the cost of the ship differential you're talking about is because a carrier can control so many drones, sure it bumps up the cost but you can hardly complain at the advantage. I really don't think it's broken.
Hohenheim OfLight Pegasus Mining and Securities R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.06.05 18:19:00 - [17] I dont care about the price its the bugs that are the problem get rid of the bugs first. ---------------------------------------------- Is mining for a hel mad? or just ambishus?
Orga Azmaat Minmatar Xenobytes Stain Empire	Posted - 2007.06.05 18:33:00 - [18] Originally by: madaluap Its not hard to buy the fighters, but imo they are just to expensive for what they do. Oh well, time to buy the bpo i guess. They are too cheap. IMHO Lets see : Mobile large warp disruptor - around 15 mils. Stiletto with 2 webs - around 5 mils. 5 Fighters - 50 mils. And look at me \o/ ... im solo-camping-pwn-machine. For only freaking 70 mils.Its cheaper even when BS. And my carrier is safe cos it is under POS shield. EVE is already carebear paradise, don't make it worse.
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.05 18:37:00 - [19] Fighters don't need pilots. The most expensive thing in Eve is a pilot, not a ship. Thus, the ability to have a dozen very heavy-dps frigates piloted by a single person is being balanced by a relatively high isk outfitting cost. Makes sense ? [center] Old blog
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.06.05 18:47:00 - [20] Originally by: Tuea i was working on rough figures in my head which were: ogre II = 1m (700k in some places) dominix = 50m fighter = 20m (17m in some places) carrier = 1b both are 50:1 give or take a few mil, and of course a 33m myrmidon & 5m vexor come out much worse. The half of the cost of the ship differential you're talking about is because a carrier can control so many drones, sure it bumps up the cost but you can hardly complain at the advantage. I really don't think it's broken. You're comparing t1 to t2 so are paying premiums. Odds are a large number of the Ogre IIs capable of being produced are going straight into the alliance of the builder. For example, I can get Ogre 2s at 300k, and thats still above build cost. Thats 100:1/drone in your little comparison, which really should be used against tech 1 drones. A Dominix works just fine with tech 1 drones, it deals 25%+the spec skill less damage for an order of magnitude less cost in iskies. Carriers have no such option when it comes to fighters. --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Christopher Dalran Gallente Deadly Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.05 18:57:00 - [21] Edited by: Christopher Dalran on 05/06/2007 18:56:52 THey dont quite cost that much, they just are sold for that much (HAC's express this most exaggerated of all ships/modules). If your corp make a habit of using alot of fighter you may wish to invenst in what you need to start manufacturing them yourselves as this will DRAMATICALY reduce your costs (fighter prices arent exaggerated too badly, most people that sell carriers will also sell fighters at reduced costs to people who also bought a carrier). ------------------------------- C.D's Formula for success ------------------------------- Credit Card = Game Time Card Gametime Card = ISK Therefore Credit Card = ISK.
Vicious Phoenix	Posted - 2007.06.05 19:02:00 - [22] Originally by: Dread Phantom price wont go down till the build cost goes down Agreed. Builders won't sell at a loss. CCP needs to lower the mineral requirements. Like the OP said, a fighter costs as much as a T2 fitted cruiser, but has far less hp, no tank ability, and does frigate damage. If that isn't enough, they only work when used in conjunction with a billion ISK ship. There is definitely a problem there. CCP, lower fighter cost by at least 1/2 please. CFW (Certified Forum Warrior) I kill people ingame too. Originally by: CCP Tuxford I prefer dew over pepsi. I prefer beer over most things. Damn now I want beer.
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.06.05 19:04:00 - [23] Originally by: Christopher Dalran If your corp make a habit of using alot of fighter you may wish to invenst in what you need to start manufacturing them yourselves as this will DRAMATICALY reduce your costs (fighter prices arent exaggerated too badly, most people that sell carriers will also sell fighters at reduced costs to people who also bought a carrier). Uh, there are around 15mil worth of minerals in a fighter, and they're being sold for 18mil or so in empire. I'm not sure how you can "dramatically" reduce your costs, other than POS arrays, and even then its not particularly dramatic. --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Vicious Phoenix	Posted - 2007.06.05 19:06:00 - [24] Originally by: Rod Blaine Fighters don't need pilots. The most expensive thing in Eve is a pilot, not a ship. Thus, the ability to have a dozen very heavy-dps frigates piloted by a single person is being balanced by a relatively high isk outfitting cost. Makes sense ? No it doesn't make sense because a 1 or 2 gank megas do about the same or more DPS than those dozen frigates/fighters. It makes very little sense at all. If my fighters could repair like a frigate or fit webs and scrams like a frigate or actually MWD properly like a frigate then it might be OK but since they can't, I don't think they should cost 20 mil. CFW (Certified Forum Warrior) I kill people ingame too. Originally by: CCP Tuxford I prefer dew over pepsi. I prefer beer over most things. Damn now I want beer.
El Torrent Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.05 19:53:00 - [25] They cost 14m-15m (to produce) Nice profit ;) -- Hello World.
Tuea	Posted - 2007.06.05 20:23:00 - [26] Originally by: Hllaxiu Originally by: Tuea i was working on rough figures in my head which were: ogre II = 1m (700k in some places) dominix = 50m fighter = 20m (17m in some places) carrier = 1b both are 50:1 give or take a few mil, and of course a 33m myrmidon & 5m vexor come out much worse. The half of the cost of the ship differential you're talking about is because a carrier can control so many drones, sure it bumps up the cost but you can hardly complain at the advantage. I really don't think it's broken. You're comparing t1 to t2 so are paying premiums. Odds are a large number of the Ogre IIs capable of being produced are going straight into the alliance of the builder. For example, I can get Ogre 2s at 300k, and thats still above build cost. Thats 100:1/drone in your little comparison, which really should be used against tech 1 drones. A Dominix works just fine with tech 1 drones, it deals 25%+the spec skill less damage for an order of magnitude less cost in iskies. Carriers have no such option when it comes to fighters. I'm pleased you can get cheap ogres, but we're talking about the market price of the 2 most popular purchased drones for the respective ships. Tech can be relevant but if you remember when tech 1 was king ogre I's cost alot more than they do nowadays, the current best always does so I think the comparison stands. Carrier pilots do have the option of heavy Tech II's if they don't want to splash out on fighters.
Ethion North Face Force Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.06.05 21:06:00 - [27] Edited by: Ethion on 05/06/2007 21:13:02 Not a carrier pilot yet.. Just a thought What if we made fighters cost more ISK but gave them the ability to fit items, like certain guns, reppers and EW, webbers warpscramblers etc. It could or probalby would make them overpowered. Allow the controller to set uses for them like activate webbers and scrams when in range or turn on reppers when taken this much damage. Make them more like frigates. Gives them more bang for there buck eh, and gives more viarity
Valandril Caldari Leela's Lamas	Posted - 2007.06.05 21:30:00 - [28] U don't need 2 blasterthrons to outdps carrier, 1 is enought. Also we should be comparing baseprices/production cost not awesome isk player are making on them, so it will be more likely: 1:50 for fighter and carrier and only 1:200 for t2 drones for dominix (producing cost of one ogre is about 300-350k if i'm rights). So yes please, reducde fighter mineral need so they can be build for 10mil, it still will be much more expensive but 3 waves of fighters won't cost u another carrier. ---
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.06.05 21:46:00 - [29] Edited by: madaluap on 05/06/2007 21:49:06 Originally by: Orga Azmaat Originally by: madaluap Its not hard to buy the fighters, but imo they are just to expensive for what they do. Oh well, time to buy the bpo i guess. They are too cheap. IMHO Lets see : Mobile large warp disruptor - around 15 mils. Stiletto with 2 webs - around 5 mils. 5 Fighters - 50 mils. And look at me \o/ ... im solo-camping-pwn-machine. For only freaking 70 mils.Its cheaper even when BS. And my carrier is safe cos it is under POS shield. EVE is already carebear paradise, don't make it worse. 1* arazu decloaking pwning the **** of the of stilleto, damping+scrambling the carier and than activate a cyno for the dreadnaughts....priceless. edit: oh read again, well we'll just have to use a suicide alt than But let me state it again: fighter shouldnt be deadcheap, but 16-20 is just too expensive. Its not the first time that a certain price was picked for a item and lateron changed. For example POS. _________________________________________________ Breetime A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.06.05 22:08:00 - [30] Originally by: Tuea I'm pleased you can get cheap ogres, but we're talking about the market price of the 2 most popular purchased drones for the respective ships. Tech can be relevant but if you remember when tech 1 was king ogre I's cost alot more than they do nowadays, the current best always does so I think the comparison stands. Tech 1 items have always been approximately 5%-10% over the cost to build. If t1 drones used to be cheaper, then the minerals to build them were cheaper. The barrier to entry for producing t1 heavy drones is a measly 6million isk blueprint - I don't ever recall every buying any t1 drones, I just build all of mine from rat loot. The current in game price histories only go back to May 1, 2006, but on that day the average price of ogre 1s was 47k, today its 78k. Ogres use tritanium, pyerite, nocxium and megacyte, of these, pyerite is most of the cost. Pyerite was 3.85/unit on May 1 2006, and today is 8.49/unit. (all prices are for the Heimatar region, which includes the market hub of Rens) --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson

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