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Balance the new and old Battlecruisers please

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Anasur	Posted - 2007.06.06 04:28:00 - [1] More ships mean more choices. The new Battleships were brilliantly done in that regard, they are no better or worse than the old battleships, just different, suited for different roles. However the new Battlecruisers are flat out superior to the old in every way. No one flies a brutix when they could fly a myrmidon, no one flies a ferox where they could fly a drake. Balance them out, perhaps take a slot away from the new ones, add one to the old, along with other tweaks. Make the old battlecruisers different, but just as good as the new. As it is new, the new battlecruisers didn't increase our range of choices, they just replaced the old choice.
ary mortis	Posted - 2007.06.06 04:38:00 - [2] I fly a brutix instead of a myrmidom. I believe that the brutix is a good ship, less of a tank, but more gank, and TBH the price is right. I have killed my share of tier 2 BCs in my brutix. Part of the reason that the new BCs are better is because of the price, and if the new BS are not better, why pay the extra isk?
Nickhastapee Maelstrom Crew	Posted - 2007.06.06 04:39:00 - [3] Originally by: ary mortis I fly a brutix instead of a myrmidom. I believe that the brutix is a good ship, less of a tank, but more gank, and TBH the price is right. I have killed my share of tier 2 BCs in my brutix. Part of the reason that the new BCs are better is because of the price, and if the new BS are not better, why pay the extra isk? my stupid alt
Anasur	Posted - 2007.06.06 04:56:00 - [4] The new BS are not better, lol. Just diff. They don't get an extra 2 slots for instance, that is the biggest difference. The new BC all have 2 slots over the old BC, big difference.
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2007.06.06 05:25:00 - [5] I agree the old BCs need a slight boost, particularily the poor Ferox. Maybe add one more slot to them matching thier supposed strengths, plus give the Rox its 6th turrent slot. But I'm completely against "balancing" by nerfing the newer ones, as they are right now they are a good poor-man's BB and able to handle many roles. But even the old ones are far from obsolete, its amazing how many Brutix, Cyclone and Ferox hulls you see in space. If nothing else they are the perfect "starter" ships for players looking to get into larger ships since they are cheap to replace.... <-----------> Factional Warfare: The LowSec wars which never happened.
Zhaymus Hockhold DEATH'S LEGION Chaos Incarnate.	Posted - 2007.06.06 05:25:00 - [6] I am so glad that this is a call for variety, not a call for balance. Current differences between Battlecruisers: Ferox=crappy drake OR it's = hybrid turret sniper (tada the role of the ferox) Drake= missile tankmobile Cyclone=shield tank Hurricane= armor tank Brutix= turret ship Myrmodian= drone boat Harbinger=slightly more gank Prophecy= more resistances (this is just going off the ship bonuses I know nothing of amarr) So from where I see it each has a slightly different role. I also see your perspective in that alot of BCs appear quite homogenous.
Anasur	Posted - 2007.06.06 07:05:00 - [7] Originally by: Zhaymus Hockhold I am so glad that this is a call for variety, not a call for balance. Current differences between Battlecruisers: Ferox=crappy drake OR it's = hybrid turret sniper (tada the role of the ferox) Drake= missile tankmobile Cyclone=shield tank Hurricane= armor tank Brutix= turret ship Myrmodian= drone boat Harbinger=slightly more gank Prophecy= more resistances (this is just going off the ship bonuses I know nothing of amarr) So from where I see it each has a slightly different role. I also see your perspective in that alot of BCs appear quite homogenous. I understand your point, they do fill somewhat different roles. My point however was that the new ones fill their roles better, if only because of the added slots. The myrmidon can handle a brutix easily, 2 slots make a big difference. And the Ferox is only a so-so turret boat compared to the sheer awesomeness of the drake, if you see my point. Personally I don't care if they boost the old ones, boost the the old and nerf the new, or just nerf the new. I just want the tiers of BCs closer to equality.
Deious Troeyd Minmatar Kalear Fleet Systems	Posted - 2007.06.06 07:36:00 - [8] The price difference between them is meaningless - theres a slightly bigger hump to get them but after insurance, the cost for losing them is almost identical. Tier 2 BC have more slots, more HP, more cap, more fitting. They are simply better. Also, all racial BC have identical mass/speed/sig/lock... they could have at least mixed the secondary systems up a bit :/
kill0rbunny Alpha-Hirogen The Pentagram	Posted - 2007.06.06 07:43:00 - [9] Originally by: Deious Troeyd The price difference between them is meaningless - theres a slightly bigger hump to get them but after insurance, the cost for losing them is almost identical. Tier 2 BC have more slots, more HP, more cap, more fitting. They are simply better. Also, all racial BC have identical mass/speed/sig/lock... they could have at least mixed the secondary systems up a bit :/ Agree on the secondary systems. I still prefer flying a brutix over a myrmidon, the 7 Med Turrets with bonuses really pack great punch in gangwork. I pew therefore I am.
Father Weebles North Face Force Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.06.06 07:46:00 - [10] tier3 bs are much better tankers wise than tier1-2

Anehra X-Fire	Posted - 2007.06.06 07:47:00 - [11] Originally by: Zhaymus Hockhold Harbinger=slightly more gank Prophecy= more resistances (this is just going off the ship bonuses I know nothing of amarr) So from where I see it each has a slightly different role. I also see your perspective in that alot of BCs appear quite homogenous. I like the old Prophecy as it is. Sure the Harbinger has the extra laser, the medium drones instead of light, the extra (4th) medslot and the damage bonus instead of resistance.. it does seem alot, doesn't it? Doesn't matter. With BC5 and access to Absolution.. I actually bought a Prophecy not long ago and had great fun it, almost daily saing "seriously, this ship is so underrated". The lack of a 4th medslot makes it less viable for pvp, however, considering it lacks damage it should really get that slot (and apropriate powergrid boost) for fitting an injector.
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2007.06.06 09:33:00 - [12] Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby But even the old ones are far from obsolete, its amazing how many Brutix, Cyclone and Ferox hulls you see in space. If nothing else they are the perfect "starter" ships for players looking to get into larger ships since they are cheap to replace.... Tbh I really only see Ferox, Prophecy and Cyclone hulls in the form of their command ship versions anymore. The Brutix is pretty much the only one of the tier1 BCs that is still widely used, because it is very different from the Myrm and a ganker itself. The Ferox is a very good passive shieldtank with a very crappy gank. The Drake is an insane passive shieldtank with a decent gank. Why fly the Ferox? The Prophecy is a good active armortank with a crappy gank. The Harb is an average active armortank with a great gank. Why fly the Proph? The Cyclone is a good active shieldtank with a crappy gank. The Hurricane is an average active armortank with a very good gank. Why fly a Cyclone? It is just that the smallish tanking advantages the tier1s have in no way offset the gank advantage of the tier2s. And with increasing gangsize, the importance of tanking decreases further and that of gank increases. The tier1s either need serious tanking advantages, or they need a better gank. In their current shape, they ARE obsolete and pretty much only flown in situations like 'damn I need a cheap pvp ship and only have this proph here...' or by people who want to be different. Thank you SkyFlyer! There is no 'n' in tur
Anasur	Posted - 2007.06.06 18:28:00 - [13] Originally by: Leandro Salazar The tier1s either need serious tanking advantages, or they need a better gank. In their current shape, they ARE obsolete and pretty much only flown in situations like 'damn I need a cheap pvp ship and only have this proph here...' or by people who want to be different. Exactly. The t3 BS didn't obsolete the T2 and T1 BS, I don't see why the T2 BCs should make all the old ones obsolete. Boost them up, lets see some more variety in space.
Vicious Phoenix	Posted - 2007.06.06 18:43:00 - [14] Edited by: Vicious Phoenix on 06/06/2007 18:42:46 Originally by: Anasur Exactly. The t3 BS didn't obsolete the T2 and T1 BS, I don't see why the T2 BCs should make all the old ones obsolete. Boost them up, lets see some more variety in space. +1 I only fly minmatar BCs, and the superiority of the tier 2 over the tier 1 is obvious. Something like 50% more damage than a cyclone and a tank that is very nearly as good plus more slots, where is the balance with choice mentality there? CFW (Certified Forum Warrior) I kill people ingame too. Originally by: CCP Tuxford I prefer dew over pepsi. I prefer beer over most things. Damn now I want beer.
Deva Blackfire Viziam	Posted - 2007.06.06 18:54:00 - [15] Originally by: Anasur Originally by: Leandro Salazar The tier1s either need serious tanking advantages, or they need a better gank. In their current shape, they ARE obsolete and pretty much only flown in situations like 'damn I need a cheap pvp ship and only have this proph here...' or by people who want to be different. Exactly. The t3 BS didn't obsolete the T2 and T1 BS, I don't see why the T2 BCs should make all the old ones obsolete. Boost them up, lets see some more variety in space. Yes, because you see more apocs than abaddons nowadays. Apoc is ONLY better as sustainable tachyboat for low skilled pilots (for hi skilled geddon/abaddon are better). For missions abaddon > apoc.
Rakshassa	Posted - 2007.06.06 18:55:00 - [16] i would argue that the cyclone and hurricane are best for different things, cyclone works for pve hurrican for pvp. ive just started flying a clone and plan to fly a cane to but i dont think i will use them for the same thing.
Santa Anna	Posted - 2007.06.06 19:02:00 - [17] Originally by: Vicious Phoenix Edited by: Vicious Phoenix on 06/06/2007 18:42:46 Originally by: Anasur Exactly. The t3 BS didn't obsolete the T2 and T1 BS, I don't see why the T2 BCs should make all the old ones obsolete. Boost them up, lets see some more variety in space. +1 I only fly minmatar BCs, and the superiority of the tier 2 over the tier 1 is obvious. Something like 50% more damage than a cyclone and a tank that is very nearly as good plus more slots, where is the balance with choice mentality there? I love the tier 1 battlecruisers now. You can buy them for less than insurance, fit them for a few million isk, and go out and shoot stuff. If you win, you have fun, get loot and make money. If you lose, you have fun and are essentially where you started.
Donathan Slade Kay Korporation Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.06.06 19:06:00 - [18] Well, 1) if you don't want to get called primary in small gang, use tier1 BC's. 2) Myrm is a drone ships over Brutix. The difference in CPU and PG make it such. The difference in slots is +1 when going into the myrm, not 2. Brutix 7/4/5 - Still the BC for pure gun gank. Myrm 6/5/6 - Making it a better tank and a better ship to use gang assist module. Price - Base Price (plat insurance value) Brutix - 27Mill - Sells for 25-40 Myrm - 40 Mill - Sells for 40-55 Persoanly I like the Brutix, for turret spanking. And I like using my myrm for diff things. And remember this, its personal opinion. How many people are going to use the Brutix as a Nos boat? While 80% of the time a myrm is a nos/blaster setup. Difference in play style. And if your like me and want to fly something bigger but don't want to loose lots of money that adds up quickly when you die, not if, when (especially in 0.0). You can save some buck, and the BPC's are cheaper than a myrm.
l3lind Man	Posted - 2007.06.06 19:07:00 - [19] don't forget the command ships. tier 2 have more armor etc than the command ships - not good..
Mudkest MetaForge Ekliptika	Posted - 2007.06.06 19:12:00 - [20] not sure about the rest, but ferox could really use another turret slot or 2. ferox -> railboat drake -> missile barge cane and clone, brutix and myrm seem fine to me. maybe small boost to cyclone targeting range(by 5 or 10km) making it more suitable for longrange combat compared to hurricane. that's about all I can think off :s

Mudkest MetaForge Ekliptika	Posted - 2007.06.06 19:18:00 - [21] Originally by: Father Weebles tier3 bs are much better tankers wise than tier1-2 yup, but theres mroe then jsut better tank. caldari have ecm(tier1) missile(tier2) and railplat(tier3 bs) in case of galante. there's drone boat, and not sure on other 2 but think both are blaster barges minmater, typhoon, still not sure on that role ;s maelstrom arty boat with shield tank and tempest with doule damage bonus for 6 slots(putting it slightly below maelstrom but with 2 higshlots still free for nos or missiles) no idear on amar. To me amar make pretty ships with copper hul plating that's very fun to shoot radioactive ammo into
Nian Banks Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir	Posted - 2007.06.06 19:19:00 - [22] Well once again lets ask for the tech1 tier1 BC hitpoints +25% for the command ships. Then we would be fine.
Messingaround	Posted - 2007.06.06 19:20:00 - [23] Myrmidon and Brutix are fine... the Myrmidon is still a bit too strong but at least there is a real difference in usage. A Brutix actually outshines a Myrmidon in roaming gangs because 7 bonused turrets bring the hurt much faster and more directly than drones can. Nobody's talking about Gallente, really. It's the other three races that now have obsolete ships. The Cyclone as a split weapon system shield tank is inherently inferior to the Hurricane, disregarding even the extra slots. The Prophecy is more or less the same as a Harbinger, just with a bit less of everything. And the only merit that the Ferox has over the Drake is the fact that it's such a godawful ship that nobody even bothers shooting you in gang battles until everything else is dead, thus giving you time to run away.
Donathan Slade Kay Korporation Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.06.06 19:36:00 - [24] I have noticed that the Burtix is really hella hard to fit without max skills to 5. Trying to fit an array of any T2 ion blasters is near impossible without max skills and other equipment. Even then, most people seem to settle with electrons to fit other T2 mods. Its hard to equip well, but once equiped Brutix is mad damage. One reason I have found is that people don't like the Brutix before they re-designed it, added a slot and upped the CPU from its old specs from a year or two ago. And people still forget that a Brutix gets 5x med drones, but I would probably use a few EW drones just for the sake of doing more damage with guns :)
Slayton Ford Vindicate and Deliverance ASGARDIAN EMPIRE	Posted - 2007.06.06 20:55:00 - [25] Really the only BC that needs to be fixed is the Ferox. With Min, Gall, and amarr there are valid reasons to fly a a T1 instead of a T2 BC. But with the Ferox, there is no reason. If your flying a sniper boat, you could fly a Moa (which has 1 less turret hardpoint) and get the same bonuses but get a much cheaper price on the ship. If you look at each BC and their corresponding cruiser counterpart, there is a 2 hardpoint upgrade going from a cruiser to BC. (I don't know Amarr so will leave them out) Caracal/5 Launcher -> Drake/7 launcher Thorax/5 turret -> Brutix/7 turret Vexor/4 turret -> Myrmidon/6 turret Rupture/4 turret -> Hurricane/6 turret Bellicose/3 turret+3 launcher -> Cyclone/5 turret+3 launcher But look at the poor Ferox.. Moa/4 turret+2 launcher -> Ferox/ 5 turret and/or 5 launchers. Balancing the Ferox can happen in a couple ways. First you can just give it the 6th turret hardpoint. But this only addresses part of the problem and doesnt bring it in line with the Brutix or Cyclone. If no changes are made, you still have the Cyclone with a 5/3 layout vs the Ferox's 5/2 (assuming 5 rails/2 launchers). A simple fix is to remove 2 of the launcher hardpoints while giving it the 8th high slot. This allows the Ferox to have a 5/3 layout, the same as a cyc. No matter what, until any change is made to the Ferox, it is not a viable sniper boat right now (and a Ferox blaster boat shouldn't exists when the Brutix is around). --------------- This sig has been censored in fear of recieving the ban hammer...
Janu Hull Caldari Order of Z Industries	Posted - 2007.06.06 21:04:00 - [26] The Ferox could do with a damage bonus and two more turret mounts. Lets be real, the Ferox has railgun bonuses, and can only fly with 5 railguns, then has to supplement with non-bonus missile bays. The Drake has missile bonuses, and can mount 7 missile bays. What gives?
Slayton Ford Vindicate and Deliverance ASGARDIAN EMPIRE	Posted - 2007.06.06 21:19:00 - [27] Originally by: Janu Hull The Ferox could do with a damage bonus and two more turret mounts. It doesnt even need a damage bonus since it can equip close range/higher damage ammo at longer ranges. --------------- This sig has been censored in fear of recieving the ban hammer...
Corwain Gallente Zero Team	Posted - 2007.06.06 21:26:00 - [28] People keep speaking as if the Brutix is more ganky than the Myrm. It's not. I can use T2 blasters and T2 heavy drones and any setup I do on a Brutix I can do better on a Myrm. The Myrm just has the added bonus of the Nos+Drones combo that is so powerful that most people don't bother gank-fitting their Myrms.
Nerogk Shorn Caldari Royal Hiigaran Navy The Sani Sabik	Posted - 2007.06.06 21:42:00 - [29] Personally, I don't like how good the new tier 2 battlecruisers are. Even noobs in them can generally kill HAC's in them. A couple crisers probably don't even stand a chance, and even a good tier 1 battlcruiser pilot doesn't compare to one of the new battlecruisers. They have much bigger tanks, much more damage, are cheap, and take little skills to fly effectively. I mean the only difference in damage between a hurricane and a Sleipnir is 1 turret. The tier two battlecruisers can certainly challenge most ships, and a gang of them is overpowering. One thing I do like about them is that they provide more incentive to fly ships other than battleships, and they are a better step to battleships than the tier 1 battlecruisers. TBH I think they should reduce the capability of battleships and tier 2 battlecruisers to better balance tech 2 ships, as well as smaller ships. I dunno, a lot can be done to fix this imho, and I don't have all the answers. D-F-A-A-B-A-A-S
Corwain Gallente Zero Team	Posted - 2007.06.06 21:47:00 - [30] I dunno what you classify as "noob" but a decent HAC pilot would wipe the floor with a noob in a T2 Battlecruiser IMO. It's just the good/half decent pilots that might give a HAC a problem. And you most certainly kill PvP fitted Tier2 BCs with Tier1. I've personally killed a Nos Myrm with T2 Ogres with a gank Brutix. Also a rigged passive drake with a scram and webber drone as tackle. Any Hurricane that got within web range of a good Brutix pilot might be in for a hard time as well. And you can deffinatly kill a Harb in a Brutix. I've had one in structure before with myself at 1/2 armor when his reinforcements arrived and jammed me. That said there is a wide gap between Tier1 and Tier2 and I belive it needs addressing at least a little.



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