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bundy bear
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Posted - 2007.06.06 22:53:00 -
[1]
Edited by: bundy bear on 06/06/2007 22:54:56
I heavily nossed some blood raider NPC's today and noticed a few things.
1) they were still able to shoot back. Whats up with that their lasers shoulda run outa cap.
2)They are still repairing armor.
3) Their propulsion mods still work
4) Their hardeners are not turing off from lack of cap. Usually when i get nossed in pvp my hardeners keep turning off and i ahve to try to cycle them.
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Nyabi
Caldari
State War Academy
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Posted - 2007.06.06 23:56:00 -
[2]
Or basically make the Domi the ultimate BS in PvE while still being among one of the best in PvP?
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Elspeth Vigneron
Caldari
Phoenix Logistics Industries
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Posted - 2007.06.07 02:38:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Nyabi
Or basically make the Domi the ultimate BS in PvE while still being among one of the best in PvP?
You know, someone always has to derail a thread with some goofball response that has nothing to do with the point because they just have to whine about something. The man is just noticing that NPCs don't follow the rules that the PCs follow. For all we know he was flying an Abbadon or something. Seeing that's an Amarr avatar he's sporting.
Anyway, to the OP: Yes, the NPCs cheat because they were short-cut-programmed with simple AI instead of a much more complex AI.
Phoenix Logistics Industries |
Mr Friendly
That it Should Come to This
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Posted - 2007.06.07 04:13:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Mr Friendly on 07/06/2007 04:14:22
It would be interesting to have NOS do something against npc's other than provide a certain amount of cap to you. After all, the npc's do use repping/nos/mwd/etc... it's annoying not to be able to disable their systems like the Blood Raiders do to you ;). Domi over-powderedness complaints aside, at least we Domi pilots could use our high-slots for something more useful than med guns and a bit of NOS for our tank.
Actually, this change would make the amarr faction ships useful in pve and add a new use for nos outside of pvp...
pve works now, so I doubt the change is *needed*, but it would make missioning/ratting a bit more tactical and reward different fits than cookie cutter mega-tanks for close in work.
Hmm, if CCP wants to encourage a pvp fit for low-sec missioning, this would certainly encourage many BS pilots to fit NOS above what they might otherwise do to power their tank... pirates beware ;P
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Almirg
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Posted - 2007.06.07 05:44:00 -
[5]
No fix needed, afaik this is intended.
CCP gave npc's 2 capacitators: 1 for you to drain(small), and 1 for them to use forever.
Missions would be too easy if you could be able to effectively nos them.
Some fast friggies warp scrambling you? Nos them. Cap running out? Nos some battleship.
Nah, won't work, and I'm sure CCP has thought alot about this.
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Fenren
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Posted - 2007.06.07 06:22:00 -
[6]
the problem with low sec missioning is not the fitting but rather the safety of the gankers, as you have all the aggro and he only need to ad a little dps to get past your allready heavily burdened tank.
as mentioned a hundered times, to make low sec missioning, npc's must swich target when other people enter the pocket. not all but about half of them.
that is the only way to make missionrunning in lowsec valid, as i see it
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Kaala Aharan
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Posted - 2007.06.07 14:05:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Kaala Aharan on 07/06/2007 14:05:48
*snipped by myself*
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Isan Danderoda
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Posted - 2007.06.07 14:06:00 -
[8]
All said I would agree with the OP that PvE would be a bit more interesting if the opposing ships behaved a bit more like the rest of us. I know it would be a good amount of work on CCP's part, but ultimately I think it would add a lot to the experience for those of us who do a lot of PvE or do both PvE and PvP. I would think it would open up a few more builds if anything.
And let's face it...if it makes PvE easier they can tweak things in other ways to even it out. A little more damage here, a couple more ships there. 
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Talkie Toaster
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.06.07 14:41:00 -
[9]
its just another one in the list of things that hamper us but not npcs. MWD in deadspace for instance. id much prefer to face 4 or 5 ships kitted out more like players and taking the same kind of downsides as players and have a good fight than 20 or 30 ships that can bend the rules but are much weaker
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Pax Uranus
Sofa.Kingdom
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Posted - 2007.06.08 07:03:00 -
[10]
I cba to find the exact reference, but NOS does affect NPC's repping. True, theoretically NOS/Neuts could have a greater effect (guns, etc), but then it'd just force even more balancing to be done to counteract the added benefits.
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Nyabi
Caldari
State War Academy
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Posted - 2007.06.08 11:30:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Elspeth Vigneron
Originally by: Nyabi
Or basically make the Domi the ultimate BS in PvE while still being among one of the best in PvP?
You know, someone always has to derail a thread with some goofball response that has nothing to do with the point because they just have to whine about something. The man is just noticing that NPCs don't follow the rules that the PCs follow. For all we know he was flying an Abbadon or something. Seeing that's an Amarr avatar he's sporting.
Anyway, to the OP: Yes, the NPCs cheat because they were short-cut-programmed with simple AI instead of a much more complex AI.
This has been an ongoing issue for a while. I was lazy and didnt feel the need to explain (again).
This was a valid concern of us who did NOT want the npc's to have a set amount of NOS. A common ship setup in PvP (Nos Domi) would almost certainly become godlike in PvE. The only ships it would have a problem against would be missile ones. (now that would include any that use projectiles, but at the time projectiles were still affected by cap)
Webbed down? Nos, Too much damage? Nos! Tank too hard? Nossss! This is possible with any ship setup really, but more evident with the Phoon/Domi setups as those can use drones and weapons alongside the nos more effectively. Imagine a BS that had three LAR II's and was able to constantly run them thanks to multiple nos in a Lvl 4 storyline? Perhaps even Lvl 5. Most missions are easy enough as it is thanks to help from fellow players. But making them trivial doesnt really help.
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bundy bear
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Posted - 2007.06.08 13:39:00 -
[12]
This post was half made out of sarcasim (spelling) about how ******** noss can be.
I was playing arround in a zealot the other day against a nossing dominix. I was shocked at how much it screwed over my ship by
1) I couldnt fire my guns. His 2 neuts and 2 nos completely negated my guns making my ship completely useless.
2) My tank was completely stuffed. My hardeners kept turning off and I couldnt use my rep.
3) He got free fuel for his tank.
4) His drones did more dmg due to my lower resists.
5) I couldnt run my propulsion mod at all so he messed up my speed aswell.
All this from 4 high slots.
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Nyabi
Caldari
State War Academy
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Posted - 2007.06.08 13:50:00 -
[13]
Originally by: bundy bear
This post was half made out of sarcasim (spelling) about how ******** noss can be.
I was playing arround in a zealot the other day against a nossing dominix. I was shocked at how much it screwed over my ship by
Whoa, and the first reply (mine) was damn near dead on for the reason :D.
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Arachidamia
Matari People's Front
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Posted - 2007.06.08 17:02:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Nyabi
This was a valid concern of us who did NOT want the npc's to have a set amount of NOS. A common ship setup in PvP (Nos Domi) would almost certainly become godlike in PvE. The only ships it would have a problem against would be missile ones. (now that would include any that use projectiles, but at the time projectiles were still affected by cap)
This is the entire point as far as I'm concerned. Right now the difference between pve and pvp is a total joke. NOS should affect npc's. Sure it may make NOS boats godlike.. but frankly NOS dominates pvp too and that's a seperate issue to balance. Pve and pvp setups are totally different, despite the fact they're both supposed to do the same thing.. defeat ships in combat. It's also why mission runners avoid low sec.. who wants to take a pve setup into a pvp enviroment? Pve setups typically lack a mwd, web, scram and nos, the 4 most common modules in pvp.
If you ask me things like webs and nos need a drastic overhaul, as well as NOS being made to affect npc's. Pve should be made closer to pvp, both in gameplay and ship setups.
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Nyabi
Caldari
State War Academy
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Posted - 2007.06.08 17:06:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Arachidamia
Originally by: Nyabi
This was a valid concern of us who did NOT want the npc's to have a set amount of NOS. A common ship setup in PvP (Nos Domi) would almost certainly become godlike in PvE. The only ships it would have a problem against would be missile ones. (now that would include any that use projectiles, but at the time projectiles were still affected by cap)
This is the entire point as far as I'm concerned. Right now the difference between pve and pvp is a total joke. NOS should affect npc's. Sure it may make NOS boats godlike.. but frankly NOS dominates pvp too and that's a seperate issue to balance. Pve and pvp setups are totally different, despite the fact they're both supposed to do the same thing.. defeat ships in combat. It's also why mission runners avoid low sec.. who wants to take a pve setup into a pvp enviroment? Pve setups typically lack a mwd, web, scram and nos, the 4 most common modules in pvp.
If you ask me things like webs and nos need a drastic overhaul, as well as NOS being made to affect npc's. Pve should be made closer to pvp, both in gameplay and ship setups.
So basically your for the idea of Nos-Domis/Phoons tearing through every pve engagement in Eve? Next think you'll be asking for E-War units to fully affect PvE as well.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.06.08 19:01:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Nyabi
Originally by: Elspeth Vigneron
Originally by: Nyabi
Or basically make the Domi the ultimate BS in PvE while still being among one of the best in PvP?
You know, someone always has to derail a thread with some goofball response that has nothing to do with the point because they just have to whine about something. The man is just noticing that NPCs don't follow the rules that the PCs follow. For all we know he was flying an Abbadon or something. Seeing that's an Amarr avatar he's sporting.
Anyway, to the OP: Yes, the NPCs cheat because they were short-cut-programmed with simple AI instead of a much more complex AI.
This has been an ongoing issue for a while. I was lazy and didnt feel the need to explain (again).
This was a valid concern of us who did NOT want the npc's to have a set amount of NOS. A common ship setup in PvP (Nos Domi) would almost certainly become godlike in PvE. The only ships it would have a problem against would be missile ones. (now that would include any that use projectiles, but at the time projectiles were still affected by cap)
Webbed down? Nos, Too much damage? Nos! Tank too hard? Nossss! This is possible with any ship setup really, but more evident with the Phoon/Domi setups as those can use drones and weapons alongside the nos more effectively. Imagine a BS that had three LAR II's and was able to constantly run them thanks to multiple nos in a Lvl 4 storyline? Perhaps even Lvl 5. Most missions are easy enough as it is thanks to help from fellow players. But making them trivial doesnt really help.
So you are basing your arguments on the situation we had 1 year ago? looogic.
If you haven't noticed, the NPC nos and cap disrupt too, at 40Km range, and when you kill them you find a nice medium nosferatu if there is any nos.
And when you are nossed by 2-3 or more npc at 40 km your uberdomi will do nothing.
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Nyabi
Caldari
State War Academy
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Posted - 2007.06.08 19:32:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Nyabi on 08/06/2007 19:30:59
Originally by: Venkul Mul
So you are basing your arguments on the situation we had 1 year ago? looogic.
An argument that is still well within the boundaries set, half the rats aren't affected AS MUCH as the other half. But the nos on our ships still takes their cap right? Thus allowing for overtankage. Thus making the encounter that much easier. My "year old" argument still holds true, thus my "looogic" is just fine.
Originally by: Venkul Mul
If you haven't noticed, the NPC nos and cap disrupt too, at 40Km range, and when you kill them you find a nice medium nosferatu if there is any nos.
And when you are nossed by 2-3 or more npc at 40 km your uberdomi will do nothing.
Yes I do notice they do that, but the affect that their nos have on our cap is not as bad as we could have on theirs. Their 1 (per ship) to our (up to) 4 per ship? While we take their ability to tank and possibly shoot away from them, they do what to our cap? Clear half a bar? Whoops there it goes back up again!!! I'm still tanking them all thanks to their lack of damage and my ubertank! The EW is still tankable as is, simply a little harder to deal with than way back in the day (hardly impossible).
Originally by: Venkul Mul
You haven't noticed some little thing, like:
the NPC are more than the pc in PvE missions, so the effect of NOS and EW is heavily reduced. Even if you NOS dry 1 of 10 ships you negate only 10% of the damage, while in PvP in a 1 vs 1 or 1 vs 2 you negate 100% or 50% of the damage, a huge difference.
10% of the damage THAT WAS FACTIONABLY (new word?)/T2 TANKABLE BEFORE the proposed change! I lock them, get in range while tanking their best damage thus far. Then I nos UP TO FOUR of them? thus gaining me my cap back (and then some!) THUS ALLOWING ME TO TANK THEM EASIER? I'm not nosing them to dry them, but lets say I pick the four closest ones. I nos them dry, best case scenario they can't shoot/tank/ew me anymore right? I just put FOUR of the npc's ships out of order and I haven't even released my drones yet. See a problem here? WORST case scenario, my nos kills their tank and ew but they can still shoot me. Guess what? I'm still tanking, my "guns" (drones) are still in action!
Originally by: Venkul Mul
the NPC are supposed to lose way more often than win while in PvP there is always a player that lose. You can feel that NPC loosing ofthen is wrong, but then they should give way more reward. We hare the protagonists, they are background.
I dont fully understand this quote here, explain more please.
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Arachidamia
Matari People's Front
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Posted - 2007.06.08 23:03:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Nyabi
So basically your for the idea of Nos-Domis/Phoons tearing through every pve engagement in Eve? Next think you'll be asking for E-War units to fully affect PvE as well.
Yes, I am for it. Why shouldn't I be? Would make a pleasent change from how it is now when it's Caldari missle boats tearing through them all. I think it's a joke how utterly different the setups are for pve and pvp, despite the fact both ships are essentially designed to do the same things... tank damage and kill ships.
I wish to converge the path of pve and pvp. Combined with tweaks in certain aspects of gameplay (such as nos), it would stop the stark black and white mentality of eve right now. Right now it's pve or pvp, and the two never mix outside of pirates ganking some doomed low sec mission runner.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.06.08 23:30:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Nyabi
Originally by: Venkul Mul
So you are basing your arguments on the situation we had 1 year ago? looogic.
An argument that is still well within the boundaries set, half the rats aren't affected AS MUCH as the other half. But the nos on our ships still takes their cap right? Thus allowing for overtankage. Thus making the encounter that much easier. My "year old" argument still holds true, thus my "looogic" is just fine.
Your logic is still flawed. Your uberdomi will not influence a big percentage of the encounters (it will depend on the enemy race), the NPC will kill your drones (they target them in most of the new missions) and you will be de-fanged, so your ship will be uber against a Blood raiders, and weak against angels. It will be even a good change instead of having Raven uber against all, the other well behind.
Your argument is based on the assumption that only 1 thing will be changed - the capacitor of the NPC ships. But if they have a normal capactior, that will be depleted firing, it can be implemented a more normal attack strenght too, where the NPC fire all his weapon at start, and only when he start losing cap he reduce his rate of fire.
The key point here is if CCP want to move NPC encouters more toward PvP combat stile, they can't do it only halfway, giving the NPC more player like attack stiles (EW, attacking drones, more damage) but not PC weaknesses.
Originally by: Nyabi
Originally by: Venkul Mul
If you haven't noticed, the NPC nos and cap disrupt too, at 40Km range, and when you kill them you find a nice medium nosferatu if there is any nos.
And when you are nossed by 2-3 or more npc at 40 km your uberdomi will do nothing.
Yes I do notice they do that, but the affect that their nos have on our cap is not as bad as we could have on theirs. Their 1 (per ship) to our (up to) 4 per ship? While we take their ability to tank and possibly shoot away from them, they do what to our cap? Clear half a bar? Whoops there it goes back up again!!! I'm still tanking them all thanks to their lack of damage and my ubertank! The EW is still tankable as is, simply a little harder to deal with than way back in the day (hardly impossible).
Try it a bit more, your "half a bar" is a empty capacitor in 30 seconds in the right missions (were you are thrust in the middle of the blood raiders at 5 km). That for level 4 missions, in lower level they don't use it so much.
Originally by: Nyabi
Originally by: Venkul Mul
the NPC are supposed to lose way more often than win while in PvP there is always a player that lose. You can feel that NPC loosing often is wrong, but then they should give way more reward. We are the protagonists, they are background.
I dont fully understand this quote here, explain more please.
Key point of your arguments is: NPC don't win (a challenge require that the opposition as a reasonable chance to win, not 1 time in 30).
But if you implement a system where the enemy has a reasonable chance to win, 1 every 4 maybe, you make it impossible to win for the people with skills or equipement even a little bit lower that the one for wich the encounter was build, and the players will lose a ship often, so the missions will require higher rewards. To conpound the problem those with better equipement and skill will win more often, and the extra reward will give them a big isk boost.
To reiterate the NPC (with very little exceptions) are the facelles moltitudes of the films and while they can hinder the protagonist (the players) in the end they will not win. So they should have the occasional victory but they shouldn't be the player equals like you seem to want.
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Mr Feltcher
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Posted - 2007.06.10 09:38:00 -
[20]
I read somewhere that allthough NOS do NOT drain NPC cap to death, they DO effect thier abillity to tank. You can see it with special named rats that have a good tank, they die quicker when they are NOSed... I'ts what iI have noticed anyways 
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