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Hematic
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Posted - 2004.01.12 22:55:00 -
[1]
My sec rating has never gone down. Until of course CCP cut everyone's in half a bit ago.
So Zincol, this 'friend' of yours. He has 8 mil training points and can only afford a frig? That's odd.
I think consequences must be paid. This 'friend' of yours has a -5 or worse if he can't travel to .5 space. That is more than an accidental or isolated incident.
Even with the scenario you have painted, his options:
1) Buy ISK.
2) Group up with people and tackle cruiser spawns in frigs.
3) Get a loan from an in-game friend (you maybe).
4) Create an alt. Mine like there's no tomorrow in .5+ space and set up some sort of escrow for your other char.
That's off the top of my head, I'm sure there are other solutions. Which is why my opinion of your post is a masked attempt for CCP to re-institute griefer points.
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Hematic
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Posted - 2004.01.12 23:31:00 -
[2]
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All im sayin is........ why remove the 0.1 per day? At least it let's ex-pirates who wanna pirate hunt or be carebears have the option to do it.-10 will take 100 days.so it's not a 5min thing.
Why should pirates get for free what others must earn?
As it stands players who actually care about their sec status must do it the hard way.
BTW: One only needs -4.9 or better to not be KOS. So that's 51 days not 100.
Let's look at the .1 per day example. I kill (for no other reason) someone in .3 space (no podding) I lose .3 sec status. I wait 3 days and voila it's as if it never happened. Well tell that to the guy who lost his cruiser and is still mining for the next one.
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Hematic
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Posted - 2004.01.12 23:58:00 -
[3]
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Hard to lose sec rating nibbling on veldspar. But pretty much anyone that uses missiles will lose sec in PvP. They have a tendency to blow up pods good.
Huh? So you nibble on veldspar, but since you use missles you have to take a sec hit with killing a pod? You make no sense.
If you're shooting at someone in the first place you better be prepared to pod them. I'm a caldari pilot dinglebert I probably know more about missle load out then you could ever hope to.
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What about corp wars and using 'innocent' alts to shield combatants from missiles. Can't turn off the sec hit for the splash damage else a real griefer will use that to kill people. Can't negate an entire race's line of ships for combat in PvP in empire space. As Caldari ships tend to be a bit on the splashy side of damage.
What about corp wars? You mean like the war we have with Biomass and that they use huff for most of their industry stuff now? Well you're either prepared to take a sec hit for shooting him or you aren't. Only stupidity can be blamed for accidentally shooting at someone who is now in an alt corp.
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What about bounty hunters that hunt down pirates? They have to destroy the pod to collect the bounty. So everyone that bountied a player should lose their isk as acting on the bounty would cause the bounty hunter to lose sec rating as well?
What about it? Sounds like a failing of the bounty system not the sec status system. Why do you always compare apples to oranges Jash? You can only win arguements with small children using those tactics.
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Not entirely sure if this is still active, but weren't people taking sec hits for using defenders against incoming missiles? That was another of those harebrained ideas to prevent people from escaping 'punishment': punish people for not being stupid enough to let the missiles hit them.
Again completely non-sequiter. That is a failing of the defender missles and should be petitionable to get lost sec status. That has nothing to do with sec status crawling up at .1 per day.
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Your perspective is so biased against piracy, you're willing to ignore there are several ways to lose sec rating without being a griefer in the slightest.
Yes there are ways, however to get below -5 takes effort and THAT is what we are talking about here not -.1 to -4.9. Got it? good.
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Except nibbling on veldspar...Oh wait...Ore thieves.
Not sure what your fascination with nibbling on veldspar is, but if you want something to nibble on...
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Hematic
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Posted - 2004.01.13 00:04:00 -
[4]
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...51 days...
Only two months...
Raising sec status above 0.0 is CONSIDERABLY harder than losing sec status. In fact, it's something you pretty much have to work at, whereas losing sec is very, very easy.
3 days/cruiser? He's in 0.4 or under, he should know the risks. Failing that, he knows for next time, he needed to know anyway.
You talk of accidental or incidental sec loss. That alone DOES NOT keep one out of empire space. Nor does it put them on any kind of KOS list.
So you accidentally lose .4 for killing a guy or shooting something you weren't supposed to. Go kill some mobs and make up for it.
Zincol is talking about someone who has worse than -5. THAT takes effort and he should have to work it off if he wants a better sec status.
As it stands sec status gives us no real bonuses except trust with other players. Yet it is very hard to come by.
Sorry but some guy who is -10 should have to put in ALOT of effort to regain the trust he wantonly ignored before.
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Hematic
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Posted - 2004.01.13 00:39:00 -
[5]
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1A. Don't be an idiot. It only takes one screwup or miscalculation to fire one more missile than neccessary.
1B. Don't be an idiot. (Worth repeating)
2A. The bounty system is a part of the sec hit system. In this case, the 0.1 per day allows you to regain sec lost for podding bountied players. There has to be a drop for podding bountied players anyway, because otherwise any poor chap with 1 isk on his head is going to be seen as a target of opportunity.
2B. Perhaps he only winds up small children with such tactics, instead of trying to defeat them?
3A. Yes, it's a screwup. Big sodding wow. As Jash said it may have even been fixed by now. The point has already been made; there are many ways in which you can lose sec that you shouldn't/might not think you would. You get screwed over and you're screwed over permanently. That's why the 0.1 is useful.
3B. <Insert insult of choice here>
Hematic, please stop beating your chest, sod off and find some other forum to stain with your stupidity.
First off accidentally shooting a station or some such incurs how much penalty? Ok for most of these accidents it not going from 0.0 to -5 is it? Ok that's the arguement. So stfu <insert whomever's name posted this useless response as it's simply not worth remembering>
If you weren't so busy NOT comprhending anything being said I'd say you ought to heed your own advice in 1a and b above. Pike off lemming
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Hematic
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Posted - 2004.01.13 00:48:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Hematic on 13/01/2004 00:55:22
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So you think it's perfectly fine for a missile user to lose sec rating and be saddled with unrecoverable sec rating. Pods are still -2.5 sec rating aren't they?
They are fixing the splash issue with missles. Again not a .1 sec status boost per day issue.
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No I was more thinking about the more recent example of a corp allegedly using 'human shield' defenses intentionally. Having alts in frigates orbit their vessel, pretty much negating missile usage.
Clever exploit. However if you can show me someone who went from +x sec status to -5. Who was also denied recourse via petition. Then I'd say it has weight otherwise it's just a big if.
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The rest is just drivel use to attempt to misdirect people from the fact that the current system has effects on those that are neither pirate or griefer. And given the track record on fixing things like that (I think it only took a month or two to get something done about splash damage to stations and sentry after damn near cussing about it during a CSM), I'd not expect those 'failings' to get addressed any time soon.
I made no mention this game was well designed. My ONLY statement is that by and large a careful pilot who doesn't pirate or grief does NOT need the .1 per day.
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But that'd suit you just fine so long as you can fool yourself into thinking it affects griefers.
I'm saying be responsible for your actions. Simple. If it's a broken game mechanic, petition it, otherwise deal with the consequences.
Per your logic the guy who accidentally accepts a condor as scorp should be entitled to some recourse. I say no.
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Odd, I've gotten all the way to -4.5 without any effort whatsoever. That pre-emptive strike I pulled on the people coming to kill me knocked me down from .9 past -1.0.
Again a CHOICE you made and yes there was an effort to do that YOU had to initiate knowingly.
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What it means is evidently you must lead a completely clean life, only achievable by mining/rat farming your entire gaming experience in Eve not to know how easy it is to lose sec rating. Especially if you actually fight.
I play the game the way I like to and it has to date involved everything EXCEPT outright piracy or griefing. Yes I have killed people. I'm just a very careful player.
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Hematic
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Posted - 2004.01.13 01:55:00 -
[7]
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Being unable to rehabilitate your actions is not fair for pirates. Being unable to rehabilitate any 'perceived' wrongs isn't fair to anyone that plays the game the minute they make a mistake and are left with no recourse.
Who said they couldn't rehabilitate themselves?
I gave zincol 4 options to get himself out of the pickle his 'friend' found himself in.
There IS a way to do it. I'm not saying it's easy either, just that there IS a way.
Like you said Jash it takes intelligence. Don't want to have to work getting the sec status up then don't get it that low in the first place. Thousands of players have managed to stay +sec because they saw the potential future consequences.
Now that sec status and empire space is offering more content, I have to LMAO when I see pirates running agent missions.
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Hematic
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Posted - 2004.01.13 18:42:00 -
[8]
As far as I know this thread is about the automatic +.1 that neg sec people used to get. Trying to turn this into one should never be able to increase is a baseless arguement.
Everyone so far has agreed there SHOULD be ways.
However nothing should be free and that is the point myself and others are trying to make.
As it was about to be implemented meant that neg sec people got free increases +.1 per day and pos sec people got dinged everyday. I just don't see the balance there. One tries to maintain a great standing and is eventually reduced to 0.0 and some other griefer can be a jerk off all day long and still eventually wind up with the same sec status.
THAT is a broken game mechanic. The fact that Jash and others don't see the inherent problem with that is rather astonishing.
Jash, I know you think I am some anti-pirate. However you are very mistaken. I am anti-griefer and there is a difference. Game mechanics I agree do need to let the community breathe however should also be geared to stem griefing.
I just happen to look at everything taking the absolute worst human behaviour into account. You seem to think that most griefers are just mis-understood people who would absolutely reform if you would just allow them to pirate in yulai.
Anyway, argue what you want. The automatic +.1 is a broken game mechanic plain and simple.
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Hematic
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Posted - 2004.01.13 21:39:00 -
[9]
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sec rating means absolutely nothing to anyone except people that have low sec rating.
1) I and I believe many other people have always used sec ratings as a type of barometer of a chars disposition.
2) I got involved in agent missions well before the tech ii release and as a player have artfully maintained my various factions universe wide. For getting better agents and to be prepared for when factions meant something in game. Something I knew would start having more and more impact.
So I don't believe that sec rating is only important to neg secs.
A month to recover from a pod kill? Doesn't have to be if there is a system in place where he can 'earn' his way back into good standing. As well there should be, just shouldn't be free is all.
Of all people I would think you would agree that NOTHING is free.
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Hematic
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Posted - 2004.01.13 22:31:00 -
[10]
Quote:
In terms of game time, I don't call nearly a month for a single act 'free'.
And sec rating means absolutely nothing. As a barometer, you'd have better luck with a Magic 8 Ball. All sec rating meant is "I Farm NPCs" or "I Ran Missions for CONCORD".
That month game time of which you speak is free because they don't have to DO anything. Just simply wait. The free increase is a byproduct of time passing. Now if it was a month of only 75% skill gain, I would say yeah the guy gave up something for it. As it stands he can go about his business (stay away from further sec hits) and time takes its course.
By the same token there are no such benefits for the people who actually manage to play mistake free and maintain higher sec ratings. So it becomes unbalanced.
As for sec ratings giving an INDICATION of disposition is still very valid. If you see someone with a +8 sec rating in .4 space odds are he's not there to kill you. However someone with a -8 in .4 space is an absolute threat.
Yes it means he's killed alot of mobs but it also means that he hasn't done too much inner-empire ganking.
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Hematic
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Posted - 2004.01.14 21:54:00 -
[11]
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Time is not free. It may not satisfy your sense of justice. But it is a price and it's a fairly high one for a single act in a game. Given this is a game, your sense of justice is immaterial compared to balance as far as I'm concerned.
I never said time was free. The sec rating during that time is. Let's apply some similar principals.
Playing with missles and other excuses you give are new guy mistakes right? So what you're are saying essentially is give the new guy mistakes and other reasons for accidental low sec a break by allowing for the +.1 per day if neg sec.
Making a trade with someone and buying a caldari shuttle that is named 'merlin' is also a new guy mistake. So should we also allow one's pocket book to slowly recover from such a mistake? Afterall it does take time and it's really not free right? Because he has to wait to get the money back.
The way it works now is, yes however unfortunate this rookie mistake was he must now go back to whatever for making more money and simply try to be more careful in the future.
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No, that's the point. There's no penalty for not having a sec rating above 0.0, so people don't give a damn how hard it is to raise sec rating until something happens that affects them.
Sec rating is a commodity. Even somneone as stubborn as you should see that. If I have a +10 that gives me some room to be an S.O.B and still be able to fly in empire space.
Heck if I have +1.0 I can kill 3 ships in .3 space and have .01 leftover.
Your belief is that this commodity can be given out for free (over time) assuming the person has below 0.0. Why? If it applies to one it should apply to all not just some people. THAT is UNBALANCE.
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Hematic
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Posted - 2004.01.15 01:16:00 -
[12]
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For someone that allegedly flies Caldari ships, I find it strange you've yet to acknowledge the missile factor. You won't acknowledge the ally factor either.
Both are easy ways to lose sec rating. But I suppose people are supposed to take it outside empire space if they plan to fight. Even if their business isn't out there, huh?
I do know about missles and the effects of splash damage. I can easily see how someone may make a mistake too. However why should that mistake be forgiven automatically while other easy mistakes aren't? Such as the first time someone gets scammed? That's a bit of a double standard.
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Sec rating is a number that means jack all of nothing. You can keep pretending it means something. I know I haven't bothered to look at my sec rating in 3 months. It's not below 0.0. Beyond that, who cares? {/quote]
Actually it is you who is pretending here. Obviously you don't PvP much otherwise you would realize that sec rating is a commodity in which you can 'spend' by killing others in empire space. My corp mates do it all the time. They manage their sec ratings so that they can fire on enemy corps without the need to declare war.
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You? Again, who cares? You don't affect my gameplay in the slightest. Just like having anything above a 0.0 sec rating.
Odd that you would say that because I have affected your gameplay. You at one time or another had to take the time to reduce your corps standing to me to -10.
So again you seek to paint a picture spouting absolutes that simply don't exist. As for a difference in 0.0 sec rating and .4 well if I kill someone in .4 space I would have -.4 as opposed to 0.0.
There is your difference. If you need anything else clarified please, feel free.
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