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How to solve empire ganking.

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Xedrik Amarr Supernova Industries	Posted - 2007.06.08 13:06:00 - [1] Edited by: Xedrik on 08/06/2007 13:16:56 I got some ideas on how to "solve" it. Not as in removing, but balancing it. Making it easier to protect yourself against gankers/pirates in empire space, and making it less lucrative if you choose the wrong target. Ship insurances shouldn't pay out if the ship got destroyed by CONCORD (this will make empire ganking/pirating less lucrative in general). Hire NPC escort (will be helluva expensive, but should be available since not everyone is in a large corp that can help out, might even be available to low sec as well, but that will be insanely expensive). You should be able to insure cargo (will be hard to incorporate since it will be too easy to scam the insurance company). Give CONCORD anti-drone weaponry (maybe anti-drone drones or just some kind of aoe weapon that attack the drones as soon as the aggressor is engaged). Flag all of the aggressors (their gang and/or their corp) to the whole gang and/or to your corp. This won't make it harder to gank (you'll still be able to destroy the transports and loot the cargo). But you'll have to be more careful about whom you attack, make sure that it's really worth it... --- "Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war."
Nate Hammertown Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.06.08 13:07:00 - [2] mMybe there should be a big fat sumo guy and when he sees you empire ganking... he's like RAAAGRHG and he jumps on you and cause he's so big you can't do anything for a few minutes? Well just an idea, just tossing it out there. Do what you want ccp. \|)) =D-------
Gutsani Chaos Reborn	Posted - 2007.06.08 13:09:00 - [3] Edited by: Gutsani on 08/06/2007 13:08:45 my solution is better USE YOUR BRAIN AND DONT GET SUICIDE GANKED oh, and NERF WHINING ------------------------ Stop reading my siggy!
Xedrik Amarr Supernova Industries	Posted - 2007.06.08 13:14:00 - [4] Originally by: Gutsani my solution is better USE YOUR BRAIN AND DONT GET SUICIDE GANKED oh, and NERF WHINING Your solution sucks. Doesn't matter how much you use your brain. If they wanna gank you, they will. And btw. I wasn't whining? I have never been ganked in empire space, so can't say much about it. I was merely presenting a couple of ideas on how to make it more balanced (easier to defend, and less lucrative if choosing the wrong targets), thus solving it for both sides. --- "Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war."
Aioa Planetary Assault Systems	Posted - 2007.06.08 13:14:00 - [5] /me smartbombs the forums
Fink Angel Caldari	Posted - 2007.06.08 13:18:00 - [6] You're just doing this to wind up Gaven Blands, right? You should be able to paint a big space balloon filled with Vitoc to look like a freighter, and then when it gets popped all the local gankers are overpowered with the Vitoc and become subservient and passive, then you can scoop them up and they become your slaves for a month.
Xedrik Amarr Supernova Industries	Posted - 2007.06.08 13:19:00 - [7] Originally by: Fink Angel You're just doing this to wind up Gaven Blands, right? You should be able to paint a big space balloon filled with Vitoc to look like a freighter, and then when it gets popped all the local gankers are overpowered with the Vitoc and become subservient and passive, then you can scoop them up and they become your slaves for a month. Haha, another great idea! =) --- "Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war."
Niccolado Starwalker Shadow Templars	Posted - 2007.06.08 13:23:00 - [8] Originally by: Xedrik Originally by: Gutsani my solution is better USE YOUR BRAIN AND DONT GET SUICIDE GANKED oh, and NERF WHINING Your solution sucks. Doesn't matter how much you use your brain. If they wanna gank you, they will. And btw. I wasn't whining? I have never been ganked in empire space, so can't say much about it. I was merely presenting a couple of ideas on how to make it more balanced (easier to defend, and less lucrative if choosing the wrong targets), thus solving it for both sides. Yes, if they really want to attack you, nothing should prevent it. They will be punished afterwards ofcource for their misdeed. Just like in real life. I mean. if I pick up a bazooka and points it out the window from my home and shoot a missile on the street, or pull out a gun on the street starting to shoot random people. Nothing could have prevented it (except from outlawing guns ofcource)! Ofcource, there will be an answer to my action. An answer I generally would not enjoy. Anyway. This is a game, and EVE is not supposed to be 100% safe anywhere! Empire is just...safer! not bulletproof! Originally by: Eldo Davip PORTRAITS OMFG WOOT. WE R GONIG FOR MROE BREEE!!!!11
Xedrik Amarr Supernova Industries	Posted - 2007.06.08 13:28:00 - [9] Edited by: Xedrik on 08/06/2007 13:35:12 Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Yes, if they really want to attack you, nothing should prevent it. They will be punished afterwards ofcource for their misdeed. Just like in real life. I mean. if I pick up a bazooka and points it out the window from my home and shoot a missile on the street, or pull out a gun on the street starting to shoot random people. Nothing could have prevented it (except from outlawing guns ofcource)! Ofcource, there will be an answer to my action. An answer I generally would not enjoy. Anyway. This is a game, and EVE is not supposed to be 100% safe anywhere! Empire is just...safer! not bulletproof! Sure, I agree. But with pilots becoming insanely skilled in a lot areas (pilots with over 80mil SP) they need to adapt the measures taken. Especially I don't see why insurances should pay out when CORCORD was the ones blowing the ship up. It just doesn't makes any sense that the insurance company should work AGAINST the law enforcement. And even if it's just a game, people who just want to be in empire to trade and do business, should be looked after. As I've understood it, pirating in empire space is way too lucrative. And with all the attention it have gotten, it will encourage more players to do the same. The victim ALWAYS loose more then the pirate. Shouldn't the odds be on the victims side in empire space, and not the other way around, as it seems to be today? --- "Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war."
Drasked North Face Force Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.06.08 13:37:00 - [10] Originally by: Xedrik Sure, I agree. But with pilots becoming insanely skilled in a lot areas (pilots with over 80mil SP) And what has SP to do with high-sec ganking again?

Ethaet Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.08 13:42:00 - [11] Originally by: Xedrik Edited by: Xedrik on 08/06/2007 13:35:12 Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Yes, if they really want to attack you, nothing should prevent it. They will be punished afterwards ofcource for their misdeed. Just like in real life. I mean. if I pick up a bazooka and points it out the window from my home and shoot a missile on the street, or pull out a gun on the street starting to shoot random people. Nothing could have prevented it (except from outlawing guns ofcource)! Ofcource, there will be an answer to my action. An answer I generally would not enjoy. Anyway. This is a game, and EVE is not supposed to be 100% safe anywhere! Empire is just...safer! not bulletproof! Sure, I agree. But with pilots becoming insanely skilled in a lot areas (pilots with over 80mil SP) they need to adapt the measures taken. Especially I don't see why insurances should pay out when CORCORD was the ones blowing the ship up. It just doesn't makes any sense that the insurance company should work AGAINST the law enforcement. And even if it's just a game, people who just want to be in empire to trade and do business, should be looked after. As I've understood it, pirating in empire space is way too lucrative. And with all the attention it have gotten, it will encourage more players to do the same. The victim ALWAYS loose more then the pirate. Shouldn't the odds be on the victims side in empire space, and not the other way around, as it seems to be today? QFT. /signed!
Xedrik Amarr Supernova Industries	Posted - 2007.06.08 13:47:00 - [12] Edited by: Xedrik on 08/06/2007 13:47:27 Originally by: Drasked Originally by: Xedrik Sure, I agree. But with pilots becoming insanely skilled in a lot areas (pilots with over 80mil SP) And what has SP to do with high-sec ganking again? Ehm, you kinda have to be quite skilled (real skill and character-wise) to be able to handle a ship good enough to gank in high sec. You need a couple of million SP just to handle T2 drones effectively. So, think again. Empire ganking wasn't a "problem" a couple of years back, and I personally think it has to do with people not being skilled enough to tank CONCORD long enough. --- "Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war."
Vala Draaken Madhatters Inc. M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.06.08 13:48:00 - [13] Edited by: Vala Draaken on 08/06/2007 13:53:17 Originally by: Xedrik I got some ideas on how to "solve" it. Not as in removing, but balancing it. Making it easier to protect yourself against gankers/pirates in empire space, and making it less lucrative if you choose the wrong target. Ship insurances shouldn't pay out if the ship got destroyed by CONCORD (this will make empire ganking/pirating less lucrative in general). Hire NPC escort (will be helluva expensive, but should be available since not everyone is in a large corp that can help out, might even be available to low sec as well, but that will be insanely expensive). You should be able to insure cargo (will be hard to incorporate since it will be too easy to scam the insurance company). Give CONCORD anti-drone weaponry (maybe anti-drone drones or just some kind of aoe weapon that attack the drones as soon as the aggressor is engaged). Flag all of the aggressors (their gang and/or their corp) to the whole gang and/or to your corp. This won't make it harder to gank (you'll still be able to destroy the transports and loot the cargo). But you'll have to be more careful about whom you attack, make sure that it's really worth it... If you had read my post in the thread where you just posted, you would have seen some arguments for why ganking in Empire does not need to be solved. As to you points: 1) Removing ship insurances will just up the minimum target value by at most a couple of hundred mill for a hauler. Many still carry way more than that. For freighters then minimum target would be just over 2 bill. Still many freighters carrying a lot more than that. In the end it would only hurt new players. 2) Hiring people to protect you is not a bad idea. Why don't you just hire players? 3) Insuring cargo... you gave the answer to that one yourself. 4) Concord you take drones when Revelations 2 patch comes. So this is being looked into. 5) They are flagged, but since they die so quick from Concord it's not relevant. And if they kill you you have one month to retaliate, without Concord intervention. Edit: Forgot some important words
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2007.06.08 13:51:00 - [14] THIS DOES NOT NEED ANOTHER THREAD TO DISCUSS Le Skunk
Vala Draaken Madhatters Inc. M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.06.08 13:53:00 - [15] Edited by: Vala Draaken on 08/06/2007 13:52:47 * Must remember to click the right button
Drasked North Face Force Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.06.08 13:57:00 - [16] Originally by: Xedrik Edited by: Xedrik on 08/06/2007 13:47:27 Originally by: Drasked Originally by: Xedrik Sure, I agree. But with pilots becoming insanely skilled in a lot areas (pilots with over 80mil SP) And what has SP to do with high-sec ganking again? Ehm, you kinda have to be quite skilled (real skill and character-wise) to be able to handle a ship good enough to gank in high sec. You need a couple of million SP just to handle T2 drones effectively. So, think again. Empire ganking wasn't a "problem" a couple of years back, and I personally think it has to do with people not being skilled enough to tank CONCORD long enough. You can only utilize your sp to such extend that more then probably 10mil specialized sp will be obsolete. Therefor "people becomming more skilled sp wise" has NOTHING to do with empire ganking. Player skill has almost nothing to do with it aswell, since ganking stuff in high sec is dirt easy, it all depends on the stupidity of the victim.
Xedrik Amarr Supernova Industries	Posted - 2007.06.08 13:58:00 - [17] Originally by: Vala Draaken 1) Removing ship insurances will just up the minimum target value by at most a couple of hundred mill for a hauler. Many still carry way more than that. For freighters then minimum target would be just over 2 bill. Still many freighters carrying a lot more than that. In the end it would only hurt new players. Answer: Yes, and that's exactly what I would like to see. It also would make it less grief-able (haha, sorry about my crappy english but you get what I mean) for the victims if they knew that the ones blowing him up wouldn't get money from his insurance company. And as to hurting new players, how would it do that? New players being ganked by CONCORD are doing something wrong anyway, the tutorial says it all! Originally by: Vala Draaken 2) Hiring people to protect you is not a bad idea. Why don't you just hire players? Answer: Because players can't be trusted. It's too easy to scam and not get properly punished in the game. What stops the pirates from buying out the escort if they were players? Exactly. Originally by: Vala Draaken 3) Insuring cargo... you gave the answer to that one yourself. Answer: Yup, this also has to do with why you can't have player escorts. Too easy to scam. That's why there isn't a "proper" insurance on ships. However, I do think that CCP should investigate it and see if there is a way to counter the scammers. Originally by: Vala Draaken 4) Concord you take drones when Revelations 2 patch comes. So this is being looked into. Answer: Indeed, I know that as well, but how it will be implemented hasn't been revealed yet. This is just my ideas on how it should be handled. Originally by: Vala Draaken 5) They are flagged, but since they die so quick from Concord it's not relevant. And if they kill you you have one month to retaliate, without Concord intervention. Answer: Sure, I have one month, but what about the rest of my gang and corp? As in solved I mean balanced. It clearly shows that you belong to one of the pirates, and thus you aren't really covering all aspects of empire ganking/pirating. I belong neither to the pirates or to the traders, I'm what you call a neutral part. So I try to see from everyone's point of view. --- "Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war."
Xedrik Amarr Supernova Industries	Posted - 2007.06.08 13:59:00 - [18] Originally by: Le Skunk THIS DOES NOT NEED ANOTHER THREAD TO DISCUSS Le Skunk Why not? Are you afraid CCP might notice? =D --- "Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war."
Xedrik Amarr Supernova Industries	Posted - 2007.06.08 14:04:00 - [19] Originally by: Drasked You can only utilize your sp to such extend that more then probably 10mil specialized sp will be obsolete. Therefor "people becomming more skilled sp wise" has NOTHING to do with empire ganking. Player skill has almost nothing to do with it aswell, since ganking stuff in high sec is dirt easy, it all depends on the stupidity of the victim. Sure, but not many have 10mil specialized in empire ganking =) What I mean is, if you have 60mil+ you don't have to be specialized, you will have the necessary skills to gank effectively in empire space. And since MOST people are stupid (no specific player mentioned, so no harm done hehe), means also the pirates are as stupid as the victims, right? Or do the pirates belong to some super-human intellect society? So, whatever you do, if you're a pirate or the victim of a pirate, if you're stupid you won't be successful =) --- "Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war."
Ryas Nia Minmatar Stormriders Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2007.06.08 14:05:00 - [20] Edited by: Ryas Nia on 08/06/2007 14:04:49 not at all, they have made it quite clear its a valid for of combat. Were sick and tired of people whining about something thats an INTENDED aspect of the game. High security was never meant to be safe only safer. If you dont like the risk of some one suicide ganking you, then quit. Trust me i wont miss you one bit. Recruiting Terrorists

Ares Lightfeather Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.08 14:11:00 - [21] Edited by: Ares Lightfeather on 08/06/2007 14:15:32 Originally by: Ryas Nia Edited by: Ryas Nia on 08/06/2007 14:04:49 not at all, they have made it quite clear its a valid for of combat. Were sick and tired of people whining about something thats an INTENDED aspect of the game. High security was never meant to be safe only safer. If you dont like the risk of some one suicide ganking you, then quit. Trust me i wont miss you one bit. And most "sane" persons didn't say anything about making it impossible, nor letting it as it is now, nor making it worse (for suicide squads). Looking at the balance between ganking cost / ganker cost and making sure it's balanced is what is required here, but a lot of drama queen are around here ("pirates" and "carebear" alike), and keep making all those threads pointless. Erm : edit, proper English rocks.
Xedrik Amarr Supernova Industries	Posted - 2007.06.08 14:17:00 - [22] Originally by: Ryas Nia Edited by: Ryas Nia on 08/06/2007 14:04:49 not at all, they have made it quite clear its a valid for of combat. Were sick and tired of people whining about something thats an INTENDED aspect of the game. High security was never meant to be safe only safer. If you dont like the risk of some one suicide ganking you, then quit. Trust me i wont miss you one bit. Jeez. And you're another one belonging to the infamous empire pirating society? I guess that's the "we" part in your statement. I respect a pirate's opinion, and this is your business, and it's understandable you wouldn't want your business to become less profitable. However, you have to try to understand your victims as well. What ****es me off is that you can't respect my opinion or my ideas on how to improve the game in general. You're calling me a whiner and flame me like the human flamethrower you are. And I'm not even a victim to this, I'm MERELY presenting the ideas. Grow up, learn to respect others, even though they don't think the same as you. As to the part of empire ganking being an intended part of the game, sure I agree, but not being this easy or lucrative as it is today. And I'm pretty sure you don't mean that last part. You would surely miss the victims when there would only be pirates left to rule the EVE universe. --- "Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war."
Ling Xiao Prism Project Technologies	Posted - 2007.06.08 14:19:00 - [23] How to stop empire ganking: - put high value cargo in a proportionally tough ship no more Iteron with 500m of stuff inside, problem solved. __________ If you think the game is rigged, why are you still playing?
Xedrik Amarr Supernova Industries	Posted - 2007.06.08 14:19:00 - [24] Originally by: Ares Lightfeather And most "sane" persons didn't say anything about making it impossible, nor letting it as it is now, nor making it worse (for suicide squads). Looking at the balance between ganking cost / ganker cost and making sure it's balanced is what is required here, but a lot of drama queen are around here ("pirates" and "carebear" alike), and keep making all those threads pointless. Erm : edit, proper English rocks. Finally. Someone who get the point of this thread. Thanks for helping me enlighten the rest of the peeps. =D --- "Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war."
Vala Draaken Madhatters Inc. M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.06.08 14:20:00 - [25] Originally by: Xedrik Originally by: Vala Draaken 2) Hiring people to protect you is not a bad idea. Why don't you just hire players? Answer: Because players can't be trusted. It's too easy to scam and not get properly punished in the game. What stops the pirates from buying out the escort if they were players? Exactly. ... Answer: Yup, this also has to do with why you can't have player escorts. Too easy to scam. That's why there isn't a "proper" insurance on ships. However, I do think that CCP should investigate it and see if there is a way to counter the scammers. The exact thing is true for the Ganker. How can he know if his gang members will really sacrifice their ship, too? They could just stop and laugh at him as he gets killed by Concord. Or they could have another alt stealing the loot from him. What's stopping you from buying out some of the gankers? Why do you think it's easier for pirates to trust other people than it is for you. If anything, I'd think, it's a lot harder for pirates to get trustworthy people to work with them. Originally by: Xedrik It clearly shows that you belong to one of the pirates, and thus you aren't really covering all aspects of empire ganking/pirating. I belong neither to the pirates or to the traders, I'm what you call a neutral part. So I try to see from everyone's point of view. No. I'm certainly not a pirate. I suck at PvP. I'm a trader and producer. Vala D.
Xedrik Amarr Supernova Industries	Posted - 2007.06.08 14:28:00 - [26] Originally by: Ling Xiao How to stop empire ganking: - put high value cargo in a proportionally tough ship no more Iteron with 500m of stuff inside, problem solved. Not a valid solution. Why? Simply because indys and transports are made for this purpose. If I, as a trader, had to use a BS (which means training and buying one for this single purpose) to haul expensive stuff, because it's not safe otherwise; that would **** me off! --- "Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war."
Vala Draaken Madhatters Inc. M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.06.08 14:29:00 - [27] Originally by: Ares Lightfeather Looking at the balance between ganking cost / ganker cost and making sure it's balanced is what is required here. Do you have any suggestions on how to balance it? The only way I can think of, is if you somehow make the punishment relative to the value of the cargo. But that's not really feasable to implement, since what value should it be. Production cost? Jita price? 0.0 price (which is usually 40% higher than Jita)? Any other ideas? Vala D.
Princess Jodi Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.06.08 14:31:00 - [28] Remove the Insurance payout for Concorded ships and have Concord jam drones. Then wait to see if suicide ganking is still a problem. There is indeed an issue of balance here. Suicide ganking SHOULD be possible - but the debate seems to center on how PROFITABLE it should be. So take the obvious steps first (Remove insureance and remove a drone exploit), then see if further adjustment is needed. I would also like to ask those claiming 'don't move expensive stuff' to better defend their position. While I agree an AFK Tier 1 hauler loaded with Tech 2 gear in its hold might not be a good idea, I don't see how that arguement can be used against Freighters. By definition, a Freighter will have lots of cargo worth lots of money. The argument basically states that its your own fault because you trained and bought a certain ship type. The fact that the ship type was DESIGNED to carry large amounts of cargo implies that the very existence of Freighters is an Exploit in the making. Since I don't think that argument will hold water, I'd ask the opposing side to explain exactly what Freighters are for. Are they roaming baskets of goodies or a workhorse of Industry?
Ryas Nia Minmatar Stormriders Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2007.06.08 14:35:00 - [29] Originally by: Xedrik stuff I cant be bothered to respect you opinion for one because there are 10 posts a day on the same subject and have been ever since mOo. Your ideas are not new, they present nothing different, or informative. The provide no constructive relevation that could be implemented. They are nothing but further proof that the vast majority of people who have started playing this game and live in high sec would rather whine to ccp till the change things than solve their own problems. Which by the way is how most of the older people play the game... they adapt. I dont go to high sec, for one because im a REAL outlaw, secondly because i cant stand the local chat and the oppressive number of people. Rather than whining about high sec ganking why dont you try finding a solution that uses in game mechanics just like the "pirates" who are using in game mechanics to kill people go are virtually untouchable. Come back when you have an original idea. Recruiting Terrorists
Ares Lightfeather Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.08 14:35:00 - [30] Xedrik, however, I do think your proposal go too far. But the drone fix is underway, or at least it is on the test server. NPC escort is the only other thing in your proposal (in my opinion) that could be good. A lot of people stated that hauling for 50 jumps while maintaining vigilance is unreasonable at best, if you manage to find people to help you, and that would help a bit (assuming it's really expensive), but it goes against the idea of eve being a player-driven MMORPG. The other proposals side effects hurt too many people for me to think of them as good ideas.



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