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How to solve empire ganking.

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Xedrik Amarr Supernova Industries	Posted - 2007.06.08 13:06:00 - [1] Edited by: Xedrik on 08/06/2007 13:16:56 I got some ideas on how to "solve" it. Not as in removing, but balancing it. Making it easier to protect yourself against gankers/pirates in empire space, and making it less lucrative if you choose the wrong target. Ship insurances shouldn't pay out if the ship got destroyed by CONCORD (this will make empire ganking/pirating less lucrative in general). Hire NPC escort (will be helluva expensive, but should be available since not everyone is in a large corp that can help out, might even be available to low sec as well, but that will be insanely expensive). You should be able to insure cargo (will be hard to incorporate since it will be too easy to scam the insurance company). Give CONCORD anti-drone weaponry (maybe anti-drone drones or just some kind of aoe weapon that attack the drones as soon as the aggressor is engaged). Flag all of the aggressors (their gang and/or their corp) to the whole gang and/or to your corp. This won't make it harder to gank (you'll still be able to destroy the transports and loot the cargo). But you'll have to be more careful about whom you attack, make sure that it's really worth it... --- "Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war."
Nate Hammertown Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.06.08 13:07:00 - [2] mMybe there should be a big fat sumo guy and when he sees you empire ganking... he's like RAAAGRHG and he jumps on you and cause he's so big you can't do anything for a few minutes? Well just an idea, just tossing it out there. Do what you want ccp. \|)) =D-------
Gutsani Chaos Reborn	Posted - 2007.06.08 13:09:00 - [3] Edited by: Gutsani on 08/06/2007 13:08:45 my solution is better USE YOUR BRAIN AND DONT GET SUICIDE GANKED oh, and NERF WHINING ------------------------ Stop reading my siggy!
Xedrik Amarr Supernova Industries	Posted - 2007.06.08 13:14:00 - [4] Originally by: Gutsani my solution is better USE YOUR BRAIN AND DONT GET SUICIDE GANKED oh, and NERF WHINING Your solution sucks. Doesn't matter how much you use your brain. If they wanna gank you, they will. And btw. I wasn't whining? I have never been ganked in empire space, so can't say much about it. I was merely presenting a couple of ideas on how to make it more balanced (easier to defend, and less lucrative if choosing the wrong targets), thus solving it for both sides. --- "Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war."
Aioa Planetary Assault Systems	Posted - 2007.06.08 13:14:00 - [5] /me smartbombs the forums
Fink Angel Caldari	Posted - 2007.06.08 13:18:00 - [6] You're just doing this to wind up Gaven Blands, right? You should be able to paint a big space balloon filled with Vitoc to look like a freighter, and then when it gets popped all the local gankers are overpowered with the Vitoc and become subservient and passive, then you can scoop them up and they become your slaves for a month.
Xedrik Amarr Supernova Industries	Posted - 2007.06.08 13:19:00 - [7] Originally by: Fink Angel You're just doing this to wind up Gaven Blands, right? You should be able to paint a big space balloon filled with Vitoc to look like a freighter, and then when it gets popped all the local gankers are overpowered with the Vitoc and become subservient and passive, then you can scoop them up and they become your slaves for a month. Haha, another great idea! =) --- "Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war."
Niccolado Starwalker Shadow Templars	Posted - 2007.06.08 13:23:00 - [8] Originally by: Xedrik Originally by: Gutsani my solution is better USE YOUR BRAIN AND DONT GET SUICIDE GANKED oh, and NERF WHINING Your solution sucks. Doesn't matter how much you use your brain. If they wanna gank you, they will. And btw. I wasn't whining? I have never been ganked in empire space, so can't say much about it. I was merely presenting a couple of ideas on how to make it more balanced (easier to defend, and less lucrative if choosing the wrong targets), thus solving it for both sides. Yes, if they really want to attack you, nothing should prevent it. They will be punished afterwards ofcource for their misdeed. Just like in real life. I mean. if I pick up a bazooka and points it out the window from my home and shoot a missile on the street, or pull out a gun on the street starting to shoot random people. Nothing could have prevented it (except from outlawing guns ofcource)! Ofcource, there will be an answer to my action. An answer I generally would not enjoy. Anyway. This is a game, and EVE is not supposed to be 100% safe anywhere! Empire is just...safer! not bulletproof! Originally by: Eldo Davip PORTRAITS OMFG WOOT. WE R GONIG FOR MROE BREEE!!!!11
Xedrik Amarr Supernova Industries	Posted - 2007.06.08 13:28:00 - [9] Edited by: Xedrik on 08/06/2007 13:35:12 Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Yes, if they really want to attack you, nothing should prevent it. They will be punished afterwards ofcource for their misdeed. Just like in real life. I mean. if I pick up a bazooka and points it out the window from my home and shoot a missile on the street, or pull out a gun on the street starting to shoot random people. Nothing could have prevented it (except from outlawing guns ofcource)! Ofcource, there will be an answer to my action. An answer I generally would not enjoy. Anyway. This is a game, and EVE is not supposed to be 100% safe anywhere! Empire is just...safer! not bulletproof! Sure, I agree. But with pilots becoming insanely skilled in a lot areas (pilots with over 80mil SP) they need to adapt the measures taken. Especially I don't see why insurances should pay out when CORCORD was the ones blowing the ship up. It just doesn't makes any sense that the insurance company should work AGAINST the law enforcement. And even if it's just a game, people who just want to be in empire to trade and do business, should be looked after. As I've understood it, pirating in empire space is way too lucrative. And with all the attention it have gotten, it will encourage more players to do the same. The victim ALWAYS loose more then the pirate. Shouldn't the odds be on the victims side in empire space, and not the other way around, as it seems to be today? --- "Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war."
Drasked North Face Force Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.06.08 13:37:00 - [10] Originally by: Xedrik Sure, I agree. But with pilots becoming insanely skilled in a lot areas (pilots with over 80mil SP) And what has SP to do with high-sec ganking again?

Ethaet Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.08 13:42:00 - [11] Originally by: Xedrik Edited by: Xedrik on 08/06/2007 13:35:12 Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Yes, if they really want to attack you, nothing should prevent it. They will be punished afterwards ofcource for their misdeed. Just like in real life. I mean. if I pick up a bazooka and points it out the window from my home and shoot a missile on the street, or pull out a gun on the street starting to shoot random people. Nothing could have prevented it (except from outlawing guns ofcource)! Ofcource, there will be an answer to my action. An answer I generally would not enjoy. Anyway. This is a game, and EVE is not supposed to be 100% safe anywhere! Empire is just...safer! not bulletproof! Sure, I agree. But with pilots becoming insanely skilled in a lot areas (pilots with over 80mil SP) they need to adapt the measures taken. Especially I don't see why insurances should pay out when CORCORD was the ones blowing the ship up. It just doesn't makes any sense that the insurance company should work AGAINST the law enforcement. And even if it's just a game, people who just want to be in empire to trade and do business, should be looked after. As I've understood it, pirating in empire space is way too lucrative. And with all the attention it have gotten, it will encourage more players to do the same. The victim ALWAYS loose more then the pirate. Shouldn't the odds be on the victims side in empire space, and not the other way around, as it seems to be today? QFT. /signed!
Xedrik Amarr Supernova Industries	Posted - 2007.06.08 13:47:00 - [12] Edited by: Xedrik on 08/06/2007 13:47:27 Originally by: Drasked Originally by: Xedrik Sure, I agree. But with pilots becoming insanely skilled in a lot areas (pilots with over 80mil SP) And what has SP to do with high-sec ganking again? Ehm, you kinda have to be quite skilled (real skill and character-wise) to be able to handle a ship good enough to gank in high sec. You need a couple of million SP just to handle T2 drones effectively. So, think again. Empire ganking wasn't a "problem" a couple of years back, and I personally think it has to do with people not being skilled enough to tank CONCORD long enough. --- "Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war."
Vala Draaken Madhatters Inc. M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.06.08 13:48:00 - [13] Edited by: Vala Draaken on 08/06/2007 13:53:17 Originally by: Xedrik I got some ideas on how to "solve" it. Not as in removing, but balancing it. Making it easier to protect yourself against gankers/pirates in empire space, and making it less lucrative if you choose the wrong target. Ship insurances shouldn't pay out if the ship got destroyed by CONCORD (this will make empire ganking/pirating less lucrative in general). Hire NPC escort (will be helluva expensive, but should be available since not everyone is in a large corp that can help out, might even be available to low sec as well, but that will be insanely expensive). You should be able to insure cargo (will be hard to incorporate since it will be too easy to scam the insurance company). Give CONCORD anti-drone weaponry (maybe anti-drone drones or just some kind of aoe weapon that attack the drones as soon as the aggressor is engaged). Flag all of the aggressors (their gang and/or their corp) to the whole gang and/or to your corp. This won't make it harder to gank (you'll still be able to destroy the transports and loot the cargo). But you'll have to be more careful about whom you attack, make sure that it's really worth it... If you had read my post in the thread where you just posted, you would have seen some arguments for why ganking in Empire does not need to be solved. As to you points: 1) Removing ship insurances will just up the minimum target value by at most a couple of hundred mill for a hauler. Many still carry way more than that. For freighters then minimum target would be just over 2 bill. Still many freighters carrying a lot more than that. In the end it would only hurt new players. 2) Hiring people to protect you is not a bad idea. Why don't you just hire players? 3) Insuring cargo... you gave the answer to that one yourself. 4) Concord you take drones when Revelations 2 patch comes. So this is being looked into. 5) They are flagged, but since they die so quick from Concord it's not relevant. And if they kill you you have one month to retaliate, without Concord intervention. Edit: Forgot some important words
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2007.06.08 13:51:00 - [14] THIS DOES NOT NEED ANOTHER THREAD TO DISCUSS Le Skunk
Vala Draaken Madhatters Inc. M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.06.08 13:53:00 - [15] Edited by: Vala Draaken on 08/06/2007 13:52:47 * Must remember to click the right button
Drasked North Face Force Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.06.08 13:57:00 - [16] Originally by: Xedrik Edited by: Xedrik on 08/06/2007 13:47:27 Originally by: Drasked Originally by: Xedrik Sure, I agree. But with pilots becoming insanely skilled in a lot areas (pilots with over 80mil SP) And what has SP to do with high-sec ganking again? Ehm, you kinda have to be quite skilled (real skill and character-wise) to be able to handle a ship good enough to gank in high sec. You need a couple of million SP just to handle T2 drones effectively. So, think again. Empire ganking wasn't a "problem" a couple of years back, and I personally think it has to do with people not being skilled enough to tank CONCORD long enough. You can only utilize your sp to such extend that more then probably 10mil specialized sp will be obsolete. Therefor "people becomming more skilled sp wise" has NOTHING to do with empire ganking. Player skill has almost nothing to do with it aswell, since ganking stuff in high sec is dirt easy, it all depends on the stupidity of the victim.
Xedrik Amarr Supernova Industries	Posted - 2007.06.08 13:58:00 - [17] Originally by: Vala Draaken 1) Removing ship insurances will just up the minimum target value by at most a couple of hundred mill for a hauler. Many still carry way more than that. For freighters then minimum target would be just over 2 bill. Still many freighters carrying a lot more than that. In the end it would only hurt new players. Answer: Yes, and that's exactly what I would like to see. It also would make it less grief-able (haha, sorry about my crappy english but you get what I mean) for the victims if they knew that the ones blowing him up wouldn't get money from his insurance company. And as to hurting new players, how would it do that? New players being ganked by CONCORD are doing something wrong anyway, the tutorial says it all! Originally by: Vala Draaken 2) Hiring people to protect you is not a bad idea. Why don't you just hire players? Answer: Because players can't be trusted. It's too easy to scam and not get properly punished in the game. What stops the pirates from buying out the escort if they were players? Exactly. Originally by: Vala Draaken 3) Insuring cargo... you gave the answer to that one yourself. Answer: Yup, this also has to do with why you can't have player escorts. Too easy to scam. That's why there isn't a "proper" insurance on ships. However, I do think that CCP should investigate it and see if there is a way to counter the scammers. Originally by: Vala Draaken 4) Concord you take drones when Revelations 2 patch comes. So this is being looked into. Answer: Indeed, I know that as well, but how it will be implemented hasn't been revealed yet. This is just my ideas on how it should be handled. Originally by: Vala Draaken 5) They are flagged, but since they die so quick from Concord it's not relevant. And if they kill you you have one month to retaliate, without Concord intervention. Answer: Sure, I have one month, but what about the rest of my gang and corp? As in solved I mean balanced. It clearly shows that you belong to one of the pirates, and thus you aren't really covering all aspects of empire ganking/pirating. I belong neither to the pirates or to the traders, I'm what you call a neutral part. So I try to see from everyone's point of view. --- "Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war."
Xedrik Amarr Supernova Industries	Posted - 2007.06.08 13:59:00 - [18] Originally by: Le Skunk THIS DOES NOT NEED ANOTHER THREAD TO DISCUSS Le Skunk Why not? Are you afraid CCP might notice? =D --- "Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war."
Xedrik Amarr Supernova Industries	Posted - 2007.06.08 14:04:00 - [19] Originally by: Drasked You can only utilize your sp to such extend that more then probably 10mil specialized sp will be obsolete. Therefor "people becomming more skilled sp wise" has NOTHING to do with empire ganking. Player skill has almost nothing to do with it aswell, since ganking stuff in high sec is dirt easy, it all depends on the stupidity of the victim. Sure, but not many have 10mil specialized in empire ganking =) What I mean is, if you have 60mil+ you don't have to be specialized, you will have the necessary skills to gank effectively in empire space. And since MOST people are stupid (no specific player mentioned, so no harm done hehe), means also the pirates are as stupid as the victims, right? Or do the pirates belong to some super-human intellect society? So, whatever you do, if you're a pirate or the victim of a pirate, if you're stupid you won't be successful =) --- "Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war."
Ryas Nia Minmatar Stormriders Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2007.06.08 14:05:00 - [20] Edited by: Ryas Nia on 08/06/2007 14:04:49 not at all, they have made it quite clear its a valid for of combat. Were sick and tired of people whining about something thats an INTENDED aspect of the game. High security was never meant to be safe only safer. If you dont like the risk of some one suicide ganking you, then quit. Trust me i wont miss you one bit. Recruiting Terrorists

Ares Lightfeather Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.08 14:11:00 - [21] Edited by: Ares Lightfeather on 08/06/2007 14:15:32 Originally by: Ryas Nia Edited by: Ryas Nia on 08/06/2007 14:04:49 not at all, they have made it quite clear its a valid for of combat. Were sick and tired of people whining about something thats an INTENDED aspect of the game. High security was never meant to be safe only safer. If you dont like the risk of some one suicide ganking you, then quit. Trust me i wont miss you one bit. And most "sane" persons didn't say anything about making it impossible, nor letting it as it is now, nor making it worse (for suicide squads). Looking at the balance between ganking cost / ganker cost and making sure it's balanced is what is required here, but a lot of drama queen are around here ("pirates" and "carebear" alike), and keep making all those threads pointless. Erm : edit, proper English rocks.
Xedrik Amarr Supernova Industries	Posted - 2007.06.08 14:17:00 - [22] Originally by: Ryas Nia Edited by: Ryas Nia on 08/06/2007 14:04:49 not at all, they have made it quite clear its a valid for of combat. Were sick and tired of people whining about something thats an INTENDED aspect of the game. High security was never meant to be safe only safer. If you dont like the risk of some one suicide ganking you, then quit. Trust me i wont miss you one bit. Jeez. And you're another one belonging to the infamous empire pirating society? I guess that's the "we" part in your statement. I respect a pirate's opinion, and this is your business, and it's understandable you wouldn't want your business to become less profitable. However, you have to try to understand your victims as well. What ****es me off is that you can't respect my opinion or my ideas on how to improve the game in general. You're calling me a whiner and flame me like the human flamethrower you are. And I'm not even a victim to this, I'm MERELY presenting the ideas. Grow up, learn to respect others, even though they don't think the same as you. As to the part of empire ganking being an intended part of the game, sure I agree, but not being this easy or lucrative as it is today. And I'm pretty sure you don't mean that last part. You would surely miss the victims when there would only be pirates left to rule the EVE universe. --- "Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war."
Ling Xiao Prism Project Technologies	Posted - 2007.06.08 14:19:00 - [23] How to stop empire ganking: - put high value cargo in a proportionally tough ship no more Iteron with 500m of stuff inside, problem solved. __________ If you think the game is rigged, why are you still playing?
Xedrik Amarr Supernova Industries	Posted - 2007.06.08 14:19:00 - [24] Originally by: Ares Lightfeather And most "sane" persons didn't say anything about making it impossible, nor letting it as it is now, nor making it worse (for suicide squads). Looking at the balance between ganking cost / ganker cost and making sure it's balanced is what is required here, but a lot of drama queen are around here ("pirates" and "carebear" alike), and keep making all those threads pointless. Erm : edit, proper English rocks. Finally. Someone who get the point of this thread. Thanks for helping me enlighten the rest of the peeps. =D --- "Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war."
Vala Draaken Madhatters Inc. M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.06.08 14:20:00 - [25] Originally by: Xedrik Originally by: Vala Draaken 2) Hiring people to protect you is not a bad idea. Why don't you just hire players? Answer: Because players can't be trusted. It's too easy to scam and not get properly punished in the game. What stops the pirates from buying out the escort if they were players? Exactly. ... Answer: Yup, this also has to do with why you can't have player escorts. Too easy to scam. That's why there isn't a "proper" insurance on ships. However, I do think that CCP should investigate it and see if there is a way to counter the scammers. The exact thing is true for the Ganker. How can he know if his gang members will really sacrifice their ship, too? They could just stop and laugh at him as he gets killed by Concord. Or they could have another alt stealing the loot from him. What's stopping you from buying out some of the gankers? Why do you think it's easier for pirates to trust other people than it is for you. If anything, I'd think, it's a lot harder for pirates to get trustworthy people to work with them. Originally by: Xedrik It clearly shows that you belong to one of the pirates, and thus you aren't really covering all aspects of empire ganking/pirating. I belong neither to the pirates or to the traders, I'm what you call a neutral part. So I try to see from everyone's point of view. No. I'm certainly not a pirate. I suck at PvP. I'm a trader and producer. Vala D.
Xedrik Amarr Supernova Industries	Posted - 2007.06.08 14:28:00 - [26] Originally by: Ling Xiao How to stop empire ganking: - put high value cargo in a proportionally tough ship no more Iteron with 500m of stuff inside, problem solved. Not a valid solution. Why? Simply because indys and transports are made for this purpose. If I, as a trader, had to use a BS (which means training and buying one for this single purpose) to haul expensive stuff, because it's not safe otherwise; that would **** me off! --- "Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war."
Vala Draaken Madhatters Inc. M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.06.08 14:29:00 - [27] Originally by: Ares Lightfeather Looking at the balance between ganking cost / ganker cost and making sure it's balanced is what is required here. Do you have any suggestions on how to balance it? The only way I can think of, is if you somehow make the punishment relative to the value of the cargo. But that's not really feasable to implement, since what value should it be. Production cost? Jita price? 0.0 price (which is usually 40% higher than Jita)? Any other ideas? Vala D.
Princess Jodi Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.06.08 14:31:00 - [28] Remove the Insurance payout for Concorded ships and have Concord jam drones. Then wait to see if suicide ganking is still a problem. There is indeed an issue of balance here. Suicide ganking SHOULD be possible - but the debate seems to center on how PROFITABLE it should be. So take the obvious steps first (Remove insureance and remove a drone exploit), then see if further adjustment is needed. I would also like to ask those claiming 'don't move expensive stuff' to better defend their position. While I agree an AFK Tier 1 hauler loaded with Tech 2 gear in its hold might not be a good idea, I don't see how that arguement can be used against Freighters. By definition, a Freighter will have lots of cargo worth lots of money. The argument basically states that its your own fault because you trained and bought a certain ship type. The fact that the ship type was DESIGNED to carry large amounts of cargo implies that the very existence of Freighters is an Exploit in the making. Since I don't think that argument will hold water, I'd ask the opposing side to explain exactly what Freighters are for. Are they roaming baskets of goodies or a workhorse of Industry?
Ryas Nia Minmatar Stormriders Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2007.06.08 14:35:00 - [29] Originally by: Xedrik stuff I cant be bothered to respect you opinion for one because there are 10 posts a day on the same subject and have been ever since mOo. Your ideas are not new, they present nothing different, or informative. The provide no constructive relevation that could be implemented. They are nothing but further proof that the vast majority of people who have started playing this game and live in high sec would rather whine to ccp till the change things than solve their own problems. Which by the way is how most of the older people play the game... they adapt. I dont go to high sec, for one because im a REAL outlaw, secondly because i cant stand the local chat and the oppressive number of people. Rather than whining about high sec ganking why dont you try finding a solution that uses in game mechanics just like the "pirates" who are using in game mechanics to kill people go are virtually untouchable. Come back when you have an original idea. Recruiting Terrorists
Ares Lightfeather Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.08 14:35:00 - [30] Xedrik, however, I do think your proposal go too far. But the drone fix is underway, or at least it is on the test server. NPC escort is the only other thing in your proposal (in my opinion) that could be good. A lot of people stated that hauling for 50 jumps while maintaining vigilance is unreasonable at best, if you manage to find people to help you, and that would help a bit (assuming it's really expensive), but it goes against the idea of eve being a player-driven MMORPG. The other proposals side effects hurt too many people for me to think of them as good ideas.

Vala Draaken Madhatters Inc. M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.06.08 14:36:00 - [31] Originally by: Xedrik Why? Simply because indys and transports are made for this purpose. If I, as a trader, had to use a BS (which means training and buying one for this single purpose) to haul expensive stuff, because it's not safe otherwise; that would ** me off! Then you must be **ed, because that is the reality. You can choose between easy transporting a lot of stuff in a hauler and risk getting ganked or The safe solution you mention or one of the other mentioned. It's up to you. Nowhere in Eve is or should be Easy and Safe. There should be only, Easy and Risky. or, Hard and Safe. Vala D.
Xedrik Amarr Supernova Industries	Posted - 2007.06.08 14:41:00 - [32] Edited by: Xedrik on 08/06/2007 14:40:13 Originally by: Vala Draaken The exact thing is true for the Ganker. How can he know if his gang members will really sacrifice their ship, too? They could just stop and laugh at him as he gets killed by Concord. Or they could have another alt stealing the loot from him. What's stopping you from buying out some of the gankers? Why do you think it's easier for pirates to trust other people than it is for you. If anything, I'd think, it's a lot harder for pirates to get trustworthy people to work with them. Not really the exact same thing. The pirate who start the attack is sacrificing his own ship in good faith that the others will help out, this is something that is respected amongst pirates and few would cross the line to backstab his own mate (it's a win/win situation, and if I were a pirate I wouldn't bring "unknown" people to aid me in the operation, I would bring corp members). If I on the other hand is a soloing trader, I would have to rely myself upon "unknown" people. And they are way less trustworthy then if it was a corp mate (but since he's soloing and aint in a corp, he doesn't have that option). I do however agree with you that everyone can be bought, but I personally think it would be harder to turn a pirate against his own kin, then to turn an escort corporation against their client. The pirate has more to loose in a situation like that =) Originally by: Vala Draaken No. I'm certainly not a pirate. I suck at PvP. I'm a trader and producer. Oh, then forgive me. However I do not really get why you're standing up for the pirates. --- "Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war."
Vala Draaken Madhatters Inc. M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.06.08 14:44:00 - [33] Originally by: Xedrik Oh, then forgive me. However I do not really get why you're standing up for the pirates. I'm not standing up for pirates. I'm standing up for EVE! Vala D.
Xedrik Amarr Supernova Industries	Posted - 2007.06.08 14:45:00 - [34] Originally by: Vala Draaken Then you must be ****ed, because that is the reality. You can choose between easy transporting a lot of stuff in a hauler and risk getting ganked or The safe solution you mention or one of the other mentioned. It's up to you. Nowhere in Eve is or should be Easy and Safe. There should be only, Easy and Risky. or, Hard and Safe. Vala D. Luckily, I ain't a trader. =) It seems I'm better off staying away from it, since it's not safe to haul stuff in the indented ships. That's the point I'm trying to make, there should be other options then forcing traders to haul expensive stuff in a BS to avoid getting ganked. --- "Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war."
Xedrik Amarr Supernova Industries	Posted - 2007.06.08 14:49:00 - [35] Originally by: Vala Draaken I'm not standing up for pirates. I'm standing up for EVE! Vala D. Well, if you are, you should welcome balancing such as the stuff I proposed. I don't see pirates whining about ganking in empire being too hard, and they do have options to gank elsewere as well. However, I do see a whole bunch of honest traders getting robbed and they can't do a lot about it, and they certainly don't have options to go trade elsewhere (it's as safe as it can be in empire space, right?). That kinda sums it up. It also proves it's unbalanced, when one side is happy while the other isn't. --- "Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war."
Ryas Nia Minmatar Stormriders Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2007.06.08 14:50:00 - [36] Originally by: Ares Lightfeather A lot of people stated that hauling for 50 jumps while maintaining vigilance is unreasonable at best Are you serious!!!!! You think thats unreasonable. If I cant get a 10man gang in my alliance to move a freighter we DONT DO IT. Not only that but how the hell do you think BOB gets stuff done... by coordinating people and doing over 50 jumps, same with MC. You sir will never make it in 0.0 if you think thats unreasonable. Recruiting Terrorists
Xedrik Amarr Supernova Industries	Posted - 2007.06.08 14:53:00 - [37] Originally by: Ares Lightfeather Xedrik, however, I do think your proposal go too far. Please motivate why for my other propotions. I have a hard time respecting people who can't motivate their criticism =) --- "Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war."
Xedrik Amarr Supernova Industries	Posted - 2007.06.08 14:55:00 - [38] Originally by: Ryas Nia Are you serious!!!!! You think thats unreasonable. If I cant get a 10man gang in my alliance to move a freighter we DONT DO IT. Not only that but how the hell do you think BOB gets stuff done... by coordinating people and doing over 50 jumps, same with MC. You sir will never make it in 0.0 if you think thats unreasonable. That's probably why he's in empire space? Not everyone is or want to be in a huge corp who can watch your back whenever you want to haul something. I thought CCP wanted to encourage all types of gamepley, that including soloing. --- "Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war."
Ryas Nia Minmatar Stormriders Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2007.06.08 14:57:00 - [39] no soloing is NOT one of the game plays they have ever encouraged. They always want people forming corps and gangs, they however dont expect you to do everything in said gangs. There are aspects of the game that do not require gangs. But just in case you missed it MMORPG = massively multi player online role playing game. Recruiting Terrorists
heheheh Singularity.	Posted - 2007.06.08 14:58:00 - [40] Originally by: Xedrik Ehm, you kinda have to be quite skilled (real skill and character-wise) to be able to handle a ship good enough to gank in high sec. You need a couple of million SP just to handle T2 drones effectively. So, think again. Empire ganking wasn't a "problem" a couple of years back, and I personally think it has to do with people not being skilled enough to tank CONCORD long enough. Firstly, a char with 1.2 mil, one week old, can suicide quite effectivley. Secondly, Tanking concord doesnt come into it, my targets are dead before they even show up.

heheheh Singularity.	Posted - 2007.06.08 14:59:00 - [41] Originally by: Xedrik Originally by: Ryas Nia Are you serious!!!!! You think thats unreasonable. If I cant get a 10man gang in my alliance to move a freighter we DONT DO IT. Not only that but how the hell do you think BOB gets stuff done... by coordinating people and doing over 50 jumps, same with MC. You sir will never make it in 0.0 if you think thats unreasonable. That's probably why he's in empire space? Not everyone is or want to be in a huge corp who can watch your back whenever you want to haul something. I thought CCP wanted to encourage all types of gamepley, that including soloing. you need a huge corp to have 1 scout ?
Detrol Caldari	Posted - 2007.06.08 15:00:00 - [42] Too much discussions about this topic in my opinion. How are the transport ships and the freighter ships killed this way? Right... drones... Drones today continue fighting while concord is jamming the drone owner. If the drone owner can stay alive long enough, the drones finish off the job. For the tougher ships, you need quite a number of drones and a decent amount of tougher ships that can tank concord for a while. This will be fixed. It's already on the test server: Concord will jam the drone owner AND THE DRONES. Hence, the damage of the drones stop the moment concord shows up. Will it remove suicide ganking? No... but to down a freighter you need a lot, A LOT more ships that pop the freighter before concord shows up. Because of this, it will most likely not be worthwile or you just need too many people to pull it off. The nice thing is that it still allows suicide ganking. Why is that nice? Cause it should be possible plain and simple. It should not be possible to be completely untouchable. Plain and Simple. Add the untouchable option and Eve dies. There is no other fix necessary. Removing insurance when you get killed by concord? A lot more people will be hurt harder by this then the rich guys that fly around with 2 bil in their cargo: Be honest, who here has never been killed by Concord or the station guns, for the most idiotic reasons: * shooting the wreck of a gangmember who isn't a corpmember in a mission * taking pod shots at corp members for fun but you forget that the 4th guy in the gang is not a corp member. * shooting at a guy cause he keeps bumping you and you're too ***ed to realise you'll get concord on you or you've never even heard of concord. playing in low sec or 0.0 for a long time, coming back to empire and just following instincts I can go on... I've lost a fair share of ships to Concord that had NOTHING, NOTHING to do with suicide ganking. I was ****ed I lost those ships and I even got an insurance payout. I would have quit Eve if I would end up with an empty wallet after loosing my first battleship that I could just afford including the insurance cost.
Xedrik Amarr Supernova Industries	Posted - 2007.06.08 15:01:00 - [43] Originally by: heheheh Firstly, a char with 1.2 mil, one week old, can suicide quite effectivley. Secondly, Tanking concord doesnt come into it, my targets are dead before they even show up. Wow! Alright, if it's that easy you really proved why CCP need to balance it. Thanks for helping out! --- "Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war."
Xedrik Amarr Supernova Industries	Posted - 2007.06.08 15:02:00 - [44] Originally by: heheheh you need a huge corp to have 1 scout ? Again, it's not a valid option. You shouldn't be forced to have a second account or a friend to help you haul safely in empire space. Some people choose to play alone (with only one account), and they should be able to. And btw... Scout in empire space? Hilarious. --- "Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war."
Ryas Nia Minmatar Stormriders Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2007.06.08 15:03:00 - [45] It is balanced, they lose all their stuff and lose security status and are eventually forced to go grind for sec. If you have ever tried to make it back from -5 to high sec then you know how real that penalty is. Have you ever suicide ganked? have you ever worked back from being a criminal? If not then you cannot possible know if its balanced. Recruiting Terrorists
Ryas Nia Minmatar Stormriders Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2007.06.08 15:07:00 - [46] Edited by: Ryas Nia on 08/06/2007 15:07:29 Originally by: Xedrik Originally by: heheheh you need a huge corp to have 1 scout ? Again, it's not a valid option. You shouldn't be forced to have a second account or a friend to help you haul safely in empire space. Some people choose to play alone (with only one account), and they should be able to. And btw... Scout in empire space? Hilarious. why not? give me one good reason why you should be safe in empire space. Quote: Some people choose to play alone You choose to play alone, and you accept that you have put your self at a disadvantage. Recruiting Terrorists
Xedrik Amarr Supernova Industries	Posted - 2007.06.08 15:08:00 - [47] Originally by: Detrol Too much discussions about this topic in my opinion. If something isn't balanced it's worth discussing until it does. And I didn't ONLY mention the drones, I mentioned alot of other ideas on how to balance it. Nothing to say about them? Originally by: Detrol Be honest, who here has never been killed by Concord or the station guns, for the most idiotic reasons All of those reasons you stated will ALWAYS show the warning before you take action. Thus it's your own fault. If for some reason it wouldn't show you the warning, petition it. If you've chosen not to show the popup after the first time, live with it. So, removing insurance pay out from getting killed by CONCORD is still viable. --- "Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war."
Xedrik Amarr Supernova Industries	Posted - 2007.06.08 15:12:00 - [48] Originally by: Ryas Nia It is balanced, they lose all their stuff and lose security status and are eventually forced to go grind for sec. If you have ever tried to make it back from -5 to high sec then you know how real that penalty is. Have you ever suicide ganked? have you ever worked back from being a criminal? If not then you cannot possible know if its balanced. Ehm. It's balanced when both parts are whining about it =) Currently, only traders whine about getting ganked in empire. Pirates aren't whining about it being too hard, they even say it's easy. I don't think it should be! Thus, my conclusion is that it's unbalanced. And about regaining security status. With the correct social skills, and ratting in 0.0, it won't take you long considering on how much profit you did when getting it. Everything is relative. If pirates would think it would have been a problem, they would have whined about it... Haven't seen a single whine thread that has to do with regaining security status. --- "Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war."
Xedrik Amarr Supernova Industries	Posted - 2007.06.08 15:17:00 - [49] Originally by: Ryas Nia no soloing is NOT one of the game plays they have ever encouraged. They always want people forming corps and gangs, they however dont expect you to do everything in said gangs. There are aspects of the game that do not require gangs. But just in case you missed it MMORPG = massively multi player online role playing game. Alright, then I suggest they add it to the EULA =) I'm not a solo player, but I do understand how they feel... And don't lecture me on the MMORPG-term, it has nothing to do with socializing in-game. It's merely to describe the fact that it's a game made for a massive amount of players. And to be frank, there's not nearly enough RPG-elements in EVE-Online to actually call it an MMORPG. It's rather just an MMO. --- "Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war."
Ryas Nia Minmatar Stormriders Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2007.06.08 15:18:00 - [50] Originally by: Xedrik Ehm. It's balanced when both parts are whining about it =) Currently, only traders whine about getting ganked in empire. Pirates aren't whining about it being too hard, they even say it's easy. I don't think it should be! Thus, my conclusion is that it's unbalanced. And about regaining security status. With the correct social skills, and ratting in 0.0, it won't take you long considering on how much profit you did when getting it. Everything is relative. If pirates would think it would have been a problem, they would have whined about it... Haven't seen a single whine thread that has to do with regaining security status. LOL are again ... you clearly have not been playing very long, and are only reading thread that support your feelings. There are hundreds of threads about how hard fixing sec is, not to mention its bugged for most people and they dont get any sec AT ALL right now. Until you try working back from -5 you cannot understand what a boring grind it is. You want to know why suicide gankers dont whine (which by the way they do, look at the WTZ threads some times) because unlike you and the rest of the people in high sec they have adapted, and used the in game mods/ships and mechanics to find a way to do the things they wanted. Its not mine, or CCP's fault you dont want to protect your self, and cant figure out how to anyway. Recruiting Terrorists

Xedrik Amarr Supernova Industries	Posted - 2007.06.08 15:25:00 - [51] Originally by: Ryas Nia why not? give me one good reason why you should be safe in empire space. It should be safe enough to haul stuff back and forth on your own. Period. And MANY reasons have been stated by others so I won't even get into that. Just look around on the forums. Quote: You choose to play alone, and you accept that you have put your self at a disadvantage. I have never chosen to play alone, I like to socialize and play with others. But I don't want to rely upon them everytime I want to do something. I do have a real life, and so do them. And why should soloing be a disadvantage in empire space? I thought that was one of the reasons why empire space existed... Can you please tell me what high security space is for if not to keep the pilots in there safe? Btw. Security status is directly coupled with safety. If you have negative security status, you aren't safe in empire space, right? Doesn't that mean that people with positive security status should be safe in there? If you look up the word security... The first meaning is this: freedom from danger, risk, etc.; safety. Doesn't that say it all? I don't think CCP would have named it security status, or given empire space a positive (high) security status if it wasn't for the purpose to keep people safe. --- "Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war."
Xedrik Amarr Supernova Industries	Posted - 2007.06.08 15:32:00 - [52] Originally by: Ryas Nia you clearly have not been playing very long, and are only reading thread that support your feelings. I've been playing EVE back and forth since beta. But you're welcome to speculate =) Originally by: Ryas Nia Until you try working back from -5 you cannot understand what a boring grind it is. Grinding is always boring. But a negative sec status only mean you can't enter empire space. So stay out of it? (this is one way to protect pilots in empire space from harms way) Originally by: Ryas Nia ...and used the in game mods/ships and mechanics to find a way to do the things they wanted. Like gank and rob innocent people in empire space, where it's supposed to be safe? Might be exploiting, however I do consider it to be a part of the game. Originally by: Ryas Nia Its not mine, or CCP's fault you dont want to protect your self, and cant figure out how to anyway. Of course I want to protect myself? If I wouldn't I would leave for 0.0 anyday now... That's a reason why I stay in empire space, because it's a way of protecting myself. It's ignorant of you if you don't think we don't want to protect ourselves, however, there should be more options to do it! --- "Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war."
Detrol Caldari	Posted - 2007.06.08 15:37:00 - [53] Edited by: Detrol on 08/06/2007 15:37:17 I'll cover your other points as well as you ask. Originally by: Xedrik Ship insurances shouldn't pay out if the ship got destroyed by CONCORD (this will make empire ganking/pirating less lucrative in general). You do get the warning as you say yes, but after one empire war or one trip to low-sec, that warning is off, believe me. Originally by: Xedrik Hire NPC escort (will be helluva expensive, but should be available since not everyone is in a large corp that can help out, might even be available to low sec as well, but that will be insanely expensive). could be a good idea under a few conditions: * npc escort is killable and limited in firepower although still powerfull * you have to reactivate the npc support at every jump in a new system or they disappear. No AFK fleets going through empire please! Originally by: Xedrik You should be able to insure cargo (will be hard to incorporate since it will be too easy to scam the insurance company). Wouldn't work imho, and I'm not even talking about a scam. Insurance payouts works on base mineral costs. Most modules are worth a lot because they're wanted on the market while the mineral cost is low. You still loose a lot of money but you can make a new whine thread on the forums about insurance. Originally by: Xedrik Give CONCORD anti-drone weaponry (maybe anti-drone drones or just some kind of aoe weapon that attack the drones as soon as the aggressor is engaged). is coming. Originally by: Xedrik Flag all of the aggressors (their gang and/or their corp) to the whole gang and/or to your corp. 1) the moment a guy shoots and gets concord on him, EVERYONE in EVE can shoot him. So he's already flagged to everyone. You also want his gang or their corp to be flagged as well? Why? 2) Would you like to be sitting at the station, in your cruiser or battleship. You're not worried about a thing as you don't carry any cargo, so you're not really paying attention. Then suddenly, 3 guys in local open up on you and destroy your ship before you know what's going on. Turns out one of your corpmates in another system by accident shot on someone else. His corpmembers next to you just see you getting flagged to them and they attack you. Great way to loose a ship. Maybe in that case, you shouldn't get your insurance back either as in that process somewhere, a concord sanctioned action took place?
Ryas Nia Minmatar Stormriders Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2007.06.08 15:38:00 - [54] Originally by: Xedrik It should be safe enough to haul stuff back and forth on your own. Period. And MANY reasons have been stated by others so I won't even get into that. Just look around on the forums. It is so long as you take reasonable precautions, no scout, no alt, use a T2 transport ship. Small high value, use an interceptor. If your at risk then change the way you conduct your self. Originally by: Xedrik I have never chosen to play alone, I like to socialize and play with others. But I don't want to rely upon them everytime I want to do something. I do have a real life, and so do them. And why should soloing be a disadvantage in empire space? I thought that was one of the reasons why empire space existed... Can you please tell me what high security space is for if not to keep the pilots in there safe? Btw. Security status is directly coupled with safety. If you have negative security status, you aren't safe in empire space, right? Doesn't that mean that people with positive security status should be safe in there? If you look up the word security... The first meaning is this: freedom from danger, risk, etc.; safety. Doesn't that say it all? I don't think CCP would have named it security status, or given empire space a positive (high) security status if it wasn't for the purpose to keep people safe. Its to keep people SAFER not safe. High sec has always been described as a safer place for younger players to get started in the game. Recruiting Terrorists
Detrol Caldari	Posted - 2007.06.08 15:43:00 - [55] Edited by: Detrol on 08/06/2007 15:44:40 Originally by: Xedrik I don't think CCP would have named it security status, or given empire space a positive (high) security status if it wasn't for the purpose to keep people safe. Simple answer: if CCP didn't want others to be shot in empire, they would have made it impossible to activate a hostile weapon on a player. A simple 'Sorry, your weapon activation has been overruled by Concord as it's not allowed to attack other players in these system unless you are at war with them or have kill rights.' would pop up. For some reason, they didn't implement it this way. What does that tell you? Also, it doesn't matter. When concord jams and pops the drones, freighter and transport ganking will be much harder. T1 indy ganking will still be possible but who carries 2 bil in a T1 indy anyway? That deserves a spanking.
Ryas Nia Minmatar Stormriders Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2007.06.08 15:53:00 - [56] Originally by: Xedrik Like gank and rob innocent people in empire space, where it's supposed to be safe? Might be exploiting, however I do consider it to be a part of the game. Who is innocent? According to my RP and the RP of my alliance anyone living and working within the Amarr empire is a hostile and valid target. Its not an exploit, CCP has defined what an exploit is, so long as your ship gets popped by concord suicide ganking is perfectly legal (mechanic wise) Originally by: Xedrik Of course I want to protect myself? If I wouldn't I would leave for 0.0 any day now... That's a reason why I stay in empire space, because it's a way of protecting myself. It's ignorant of you if you don't think we don't want to protect ourselves, however, there should be more options to do it! I fail to see what options are missing. You have 2 different types of tank, speed mods, T2 haulers, freighters, logistics ships, courier missions, gangs, fleets, corporations, alliances, cloaks, warp core stabs........... the list keeps going. in the last year the ONLY time i have ever lost a ship was when i screwed up. If as an outlaw i can keep alive when anyone can shoot at me, and yes i even fly haulers around some times, then you can to. Thats it, period, argument over. If i can keep my ships alive, and other people can, then you can to. I hope you figure out how. Recruiting Terrorists
Xedrik Amarr Supernova Industries	Posted - 2007.06.08 15:56:00 - [57] Originally by: Detrol You do get the warning as you say yes, but after one empire war or one trip to low-sec, that warning is off, believe me. So it has actually nothing to do with not getting the insurance payout, it's more or less not getting the warning about it? If that's the reason, CCP should improve the warning windom. Maybe give it more options? Originally by: Detrol could be a good idea under a few conditions: * npc escort is killable and limited in firepower although still powerfull * you have to reactivate the npc support at every jump in a new system or they disappear. No AFK fleets going through empire please! Agree with you fully on this one. Great ideas! So it's viable and could work. Originally by: Detrol Wouldn't work imho, and I'm not even talking about a scam. Insurance payouts works on base mineral costs. Most modules are worth a lot because they're wanted on the market while the mineral cost is low. You still loose a lot of money but you can make a new whine thread on the forums about insurance. Perhaps, but at least you don't walk out empty-handed out of the conflict, which too me is the most important part. But this idea needs some time to grow... Can't be implemented just like that =) Originally by: Detrol 1) the moment a guy shoots and gets concord on him, EVERYONE in EVE can shoot him. So he's already flagged to everyone. You also want his gang or their corp to be flagged as well? Why? Because as a corp member, what you do should be reflected on the corp itself, you are a representant of that corp and have a responsibility as well. That's what I think, personally... Of course there need to be a set of rules to control the flagging, maybe only flag corp members in the vicinity, let's say the same system or constellation. This means that a number of your corpmates can be punished for what you do wrong (if it is considered wrong to pirate in your corp), and thus gives a greater impact. --- "Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war."
Hamfast Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.08 15:56:00 - [58] Empire space needs to be "Safer" then low sec and 0.0, it need not be "Safe"... Security Status should come into play... Both for the system and the player (give people a reason to keep theirs high) - Concord arrives faster in a 1.0 system then a .8 system... and Concord shows up faster if your security standing is 5.0 then if it's 0.3... Fixing Concords blinders when it comes to drones is a must - no single type of Combat ship should have a bigger advantage then others of the same type when it comes to these attacks, Domi's are used because they are cheap and pack the Drones needed to take advantage of the Concord Bug... by the way, Yes, the Drone issue should be classified a "Bug" and the use of it to pop freighters should be called an "Exploit" by CCP... Please note, I am not saying Suicide Ganking should be stopped, but the ships required need to be commiserate with the normal damage output of that ship in a PvP fight. I like the Hire NPC Guards idea, pay by trip, dependent on your security level and the level you are willing to afford, for Concord to watch over you... it speeds up the Concord response to your distress call... None of us is as dumb as all of us...
Drunk Driver Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.08 15:59:00 - [59] Originally by: Xedrik Edited by: Xedrik on 08/06/2007 13:35:12 Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Yes, if they really want to attack you, nothing should prevent it. They will be punished afterwards ofcource for their misdeed. Just like in real life. I mean. if I pick up a bazooka and points it out the window from my home and shoot a missile on the street, or pull out a gun on the street starting to shoot random people. Nothing could have prevented it (except from outlawing guns ofcource)! Ofcource, there will be an answer to my action. An answer I generally would not enjoy. Anyway. This is a game, and EVE is not supposed to be 100% safe anywhere! Empire is just...safer! not bulletproof! Sure, I agree. Uh, no you don't. If you did then you would not have made this thread.
Xedrik Amarr Supernova Industries	Posted - 2007.06.08 16:01:00 - [60] Originally by: Ryas Nia It is so long as you take reasonable precautions, no scout, no alt, use a T2 transport ship. Small high value, use an interceptor. If your at risk then change the way you conduct your self. I agree with you on this one about the choice of ship. However, if you're just into trading. Training for all of those ships will take a lot of time. Then CCP should add smaller transport ships that can't use any guns, but mainly focus on resistances and speed, like blockade runner of sorts. But when it comes to alts and relying on other players, I don't want that... It just seems wrong to me. Originally by: Ryas Nia Its to keep people SAFER not safe. High sec has always been described as a safer place for younger players to get started in the game. Ok, my bad, safer space. You're right on that part. And it will become a lot safer when the drones get popped by CONCORD as well. I'm not saying it should be completely safe, I just think that traders should have more options to protect themselves, as pirates have options to gank elsewhere. --- "Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war."

Drasked North Face Force Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.06.08 16:07:00 - [61] Originally by: Xedrik Originally by: Drasked You can only utilize your sp to such extend that more then probably 10mil specialized sp will be obsolete. Therefor "people becomming more skilled sp wise" has NOTHING to do with empire ganking. Player skill has almost nothing to do with it aswell, since ganking stuff in high sec is dirt easy, it all depends on the stupidity of the victim. Sure, but not many have 10mil specialized in empire ganking =) What I mean is, if you have 60mil+ you don't have to be specialized, you will have the necessary skills to gank effectively in empire space. And since MOST people are stupid (no specific player mentioned, so no harm done hehe), means also the pirates are as stupid as the victims, right? Or do the pirates belong to some super-human intellect society? So, whatever you do, if you're a pirate or the victim of a pirate, if you're stupid you won't be successful =) What are you on about?? do you think its hard to gank someone in high-sec or something? do you think you need some uber sp and player skills to do it? All my character atm are able to effectivly gank stuff in high-sec since they are trained for pvp, there is no gank skill you need on 5 to successfully gank in highsec, like people pointed out it takes a short period of skill training to be effective. That whole part about stupid pirates and such i didn't really understand, but what you must realize is that its the victims fault when he gets ganked in high-sec, i have moved tons of **** trough high sec without getting ganked once.. how is this possible? Why do only stupid people get ganked in an itty with 2bil on?
Xedrik Amarr Supernova Industries	Posted - 2007.06.08 16:09:00 - [62] Originally by: Detrol For some reason, they didn't implement it this way. What does that tell you? Also, it doesn't matter. When concord jams and pops the drones, freighter and transport ganking will be much harder. T1 indy ganking will still be possible but who carries 2 bil in a T1 indy anyway? That deserves a spanking. My bad, I didn't mean safe, I meant safer. As I stated in my post above. And I also agree that the trader is responsible to find a good ship that can take a beating... However, I still think the rest of my ideas could be implemented... What I've heard about when it comes to WHY insurances should pay out wehn CONCORD destroy your ship has more or less to do with UI flaws then with the actual payout not being done. So, with a few tweaks to the warning window, give it more options, that could definately be implemented (and of course, not only pirates will be punished by it, but also STUPID people). And NPC escorts can be nice for pirates as well... They might drop nice loot? But at least it adds some extra defense to a solo trader who don't want to be in a corp or don't have any friends available to help him out. I'm really open-minded about all of this, as long as I'm given some constructive criticism. When being jumped at and being called whiner and other names, just makes me irritated =D And yes, a t1 indy transporting valuable stuff is surely just begging for it. But they should be presented options to defend themselves against attacks anyway. --- "Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war."
Alpine 69 Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.06.08 16:09:00 - [63] Originally by: Gutsani Edited by: Gutsani on 08/06/2007 13:08:45 my solution is better USE YOUR BRAIN AND DONT GET SUICIDE GANKED oh, and NERF WHINING /signed Sweet love for the ones that mod my sig <3
Xedrik Amarr Supernova Industries	Posted - 2007.06.08 16:17:00 - [64] Originally by: Drasked What are you on about?? do you think its hard to gank someone in high-sec or something? do you think you need some uber sp and player skills to do it? All my character atm are able to effectivly gank stuff in high-sec since they are trained for pvp, there is no gank skill you need on 5 to successfully gank in highsec, like people pointed out it takes a short period of skill training to be effective. That whole part about stupid pirates and such i didn't really understand, but what you must realize is that its the victims fault when he gets ganked in high-sec, i have moved tons of **** trough high sec without getting ganked once.. how is this possible? Why do only stupid people get ganked in an itty with 2bil on? Haha, you still don't understand? No I don't say you need uber-skills etc. But if what you say about it's being easy just confirms that it's unbalanced. It shouldn't be EASY! It should be about risking a lot to win a lot, more or less jeopardy or like playing on lotto. Right now, pirates risk very little to win A LOT. That's why it's unbalanced and needs to be looked at. Why can't you see this? And no, even the most experienced trader will fall victim to pirates if the pirates want him down. It has nothing to do with stupidity. But of course, hauling 2bil in an indy is stupid, I agree on that, but if that's the only way for a him/her to haul it (no corp, no friends online to help) he should have some other options to help defend himself. Like NPC escorts for example. It's just ideas, it's nothing I demand... It's just a way to make the game more fun for everyone! As you said, it's easy to gank in empire space... Something that is easy, usually becomes boring after a while. --- "Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war."
Xedrik Amarr Supernova Industries	Posted - 2007.06.08 16:23:00 - [65] Originally by: Drunk Driver Uh, no you don't. If you did then you would not have made this thread. Jeez. Read the whole thread and you might get a clue. I never said it should be 100% safe in empire space. I don't want empire ganking/pirating to be removed. However, when pirates say it's EASY to gank in empire, while traders are whining about getting ganked, that clearly show that it's unbalanced... It should be hard for the pirates, and the traders need more options to defend themselves against them. And I posted this thread with the reason to present a couple of ideas on how to balance it, which results in solving it. --- "Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war."
Drasked North Face Force Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.06.08 16:26:00 - [66] Originally by: Xedrik Edited by: Xedrik on 08/06/2007 16:17:14 Originally by: Drasked What are you on about?? do you think its hard to gank someone in high-sec or something? do you think you need some uber sp and player skills to do it? All my character atm are able to effectivly gank stuff in high-sec since they are trained for pvp, there is no gank skill you need on 5 to successfully gank in highsec, like people pointed out it takes a short period of skill training to be effective. That whole part about stupid pirates and such i didn't really understand, but what you must realize is that its the victims fault when he gets ganked in high-sec, i have moved tons of **** trough high sec without getting ganked once.. how is this possible? Why do only stupid people get ganked in an itty with 2bil on? Haha, you still don't understand? No I don't say you need uber-skills etc. But if what you say about it's being easy just confirms that it's unbalanced. It shouldn't be EASY! It should be about risking a lot to win a lot, more or less jeopardy or like playing on lotto. Right now, pirates risk very little to win A LOT. That's why it's unbalanced and needs to be looked at. Why can't you see this? And no, even the most experienced trader will fall victim to pirates if the pirates want him down. It has nothing to do with stupidity. But of course, hauling 2bil in an indy is stupid, I agree on that, but if that's the only way for a him/her to haul it (no corp, no friends online to help) he should have some other options to help defend himself. Like NPC escorts for example. It's just ideas, it's nothing I demand... It's just a way to make the game more fun (and balanced) for everyone! As you said, it's easy to gank in empire space... Something that is easy, usually becomes boring after a while. Your the one that doesn't understand my friend, ganking indys in high sec is about as easy as ganking an npcing battleship.. in both cases the whole situation could have been avoided if the victim had used his brain, the only problem there is now is with the army of domi's raping freighters, as soon as that is solved (wich ccp is already on i believe) everything is back to normal. In this game, if you slip up, you die.. you could implent all the features you want.. people will continue to slip up and die, and thus starts the spiral downwards, the problem doesnt lie with game mechanics but with peoples stupidity, if you try to combat this stupidity with safety features this game will slowly go down the gutter.
Xedrik Amarr Supernova Industries	Posted - 2007.06.08 16:34:00 - [67] Edited by: Xedrik on 08/06/2007 16:32:57 Originally by: Drasked Your the one that doesn't understand my friend Oh well, since we don't understand eachother it's simply no idea to continue to discuss it. But luckily we're both entitled to have our own opinions, so no biggie. Fly safe. --- "Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war."
Drasked North Face Force Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.06.08 16:37:00 - [68] Originally by: Xedrik Edited by: Xedrik on 08/06/2007 16:32:57 Originally by: Drasked Your the one that doesn't understand my friend Oh well, since we don't understand eachother it's simply no idea to continue to discuss it. But luckily we're both entitled to have our own opinions, so no biggie. Fly safe. I understand perfectly where your comming from, but if you would spend some seconds reading my posts you see my point, your a decent chap and i see your trying to have a decent discussion here, but could you counter argue my last post please?
Herculite Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.08 16:40:00 - [69] Solving implies there is a problem. The real solution is for people not to be stupid and haul stuff in such a way that it allows them to be ganked. Scouts ftw.
Xedrik Amarr Supernova Industries	Posted - 2007.06.08 16:50:00 - [70] Edited by: Xedrik on 08/06/2007 16:50:17 Originally by: Drasked I understand perfectly where your comming from, but if you would spend some seconds reading my posts you see my point, your a decent chap and i see your trying to have a decent discussion here, but could you counter argue my last post please? Since you're asking politely I'll give it a shot, dunno if it will lead anywhere though. First of all my ideas is not to be used to counter ganking on indys, and I agree you gotta be smart to haul really safely. However, I would like it to be harder to pirate in empire. As I've stated in so many posts before, ganking in empire space is too darn easy to make money off (at least until the CONCORD gets buffed with anti-droneage). Sure it will become harder after that, but I still think that traders should be presented with more options with how they could defend themselves. I mean, if it was easy to rob people IRL, and there were no real repercussions, I would probably do it. I don't, because of the impact it may have if I get caught (not to mention I have a conscience of a bunny). The pirates have 0.0-space for themselves to freely roam and rob whomever they see fit, but of course isn't as profitable (and easy?!) as empire pirating. However, traders have no where else to go, and thus should be given the upper hand in empire space. Pirates have options, traders doesn't. Now traders get slapped in the face when or if they loose a transport full of stuff. Firstly, they don't get **** for the stuff they lost (except for the ship itself) while they know that the pirate will get compensation for his ship and be able to pick up your loot and his own, just because they're in a big bad corp that would whoop your ass anyday. It's just not fair play. --- "Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war."

Xedrik Amarr Supernova Industries	Posted - 2007.06.08 16:53:00 - [71] Originally by: Herculite Solving implies there is a problem. The real solution is for people not to be stupid and haul stuff in such a way that it allows them to be ganked. Scouts ftw. You're in BoB, I think most pirates would think second thoughts before attacking you even if you were in a t1 indy. You might just war dec them otherwise. =P --- "Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war."
Gutsani Chaos Reborn	Posted - 2007.06.08 17:06:00 - [72] Originally by: Xedrik and I agree you gotta be smart to haul really safely. didnt i say that in like, the second post? and you called it stoupid? ohohoh if your smart, the chances of getting suicide ganked are reduced by 95%. And before you go emo mode after reading this, cause thats what whiners are good at, read the rest. Originally by: Xedrik I mean, if it was easy to rob people IRL, and there were no real repercussions, I would probably do it. I don't, because of the impact it may have if I get caught (not to mention I have a conscience of a bunny). This is a game, not real life. Stop comparing imaginable space ships to real life. This is a game, and a game has rules. Suicide ganking is not a breach of those rules, and as such is not a bug/exploit -> needs no fixing! Originally by: Xedrik The pirates have 0.0-space for themselves to freely roam and rob whomever they see fit, but of course isn't as profitable (and easy?!) as empire pirating. If there was anything decent to shoot in 0.0, i'm sure most of the suicide gankers would go away... Originally by: Xedrik However, traders have no where else to go, and thus should be given the upper hand in empire space. Pirates have options, traders doesn't. Wait, so pirates can move to 0.0, and traders cant? Why not? Its not like markets "in real life" dont get created, right? right? There is even an economical term which can broadly describe suicide ganking; "price and product differentiation", if you stack it all together you only ruin yourself, suicide ganking is natural selection Originally by: Xedrik Now traders get slapped in the face when or if they loose a transport full of stuff. Firstly, they don't get ** for the stuff they lost (except for the ship itself) while they know that the pirate will get compensation for his ship and be able to pick up your loot and his own, just because they're in a big bad corp that would whoop your ass anyday. It's just not fair play. First, yes it is fair play. Second, this is a MMORPG, not some single player trade game. There are ALOT of ways to protect your cargo, be it making it impossible to scan, or making it impossible to loot. How about you get some friends in this game. Let em help em move your stuff, hell make the "Jita safe trade corporation" for all i care. But stop the god damn whining! There is, and i say this verry clearly, NOTHING wrong with suicide ganking. Concord is not some insane police force/FBI/CIA that hunts down the criminals, they blow up the criminals and their job is done. Concord is not responcible for what you move and what happens with it. The only person to blame would be the one who got suicide ganked. NERF WHINERS! ------------------------ Stop reading my siggy!**
Drasked North Face Force Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.06.08 17:07:00 - [73] Originally by: Xedrik Since you're asking politely I'll give it a shot, dunno if it will lead anywhere though. First of all my ideas is not to be used to counter ganking on indys, and I agree you gotta be smart to haul really safely. However, I would like it to be harder to pirate in empire. As I've stated in so many posts before, ganking in empire space is too darn easy to make money off (at least until the CONCORD gets buffed with anti-droneage). You have to agree that the main reason it is easy for people to gank in highsec and for it to be profitable is in the hands of the victim. ie: If everyone was as paranoid as me when moving expensive stuff, then less people would get ganked and if they did it would be far less profitable then it is now. Originally by: Xedrik Sure it will become harder after that, but I still think that traders should be presented with more options with how they could defend themselves. I mean, if it was easy to rob people IRL, and there were no real repercussions, I would probably do it. I don't, because of the impact it may have if I get caught (not to mention I have a conscience of a bunny). But as it is now i think i have plenty of means to not get ganked in high sec, mainly because it has never happend to me, and the reprecussions atm are bad enough to make it unattractive for me to gank in highsec. Originally by: Xedrik The pirates have 0.0-space for themselves to freely roam and rob whomever they see fit, but of course isn't as profitable (and easy?!) as empire pirating. However, traders have no where else to go, and thus should be given the upper hand in empire space. Pirates have options, traders doesn't. Now traders get slapped in the face when or if they loose a transport full of stuff. Firstly, they don't get **** for the stuff they lost (except for the ship itself) while they know that the pirate will get compensation for his ship and be able to pick up your loot and his own, just because they're in a big bad corp that would whoop your ass anyday. Well the reason its not profitable to do this in 0.0 is because its common knowledge that afking an itty with 2bil in stuff on trough 0.0 is stupid, only if people would consider the same for high-sec.
Zugor Ikatin Corporation 35	Posted - 2007.06.08 17:16:00 - [74] I tend to write off these threads as pointless whining, as I love the fact that there is high-sec ganking, but the idea of having no insurance payout when killed by CONCORD is probably the most logical thing to add to EVE as one of the downsides to people who do these types of activities. ------------------------------------------------------------ "We that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak but not to please ourselves." - Romans 15:1
Necromancer D House Of Cards	Posted - 2007.06.08 17:36:00 - [75] Originally by: Princess Jodi Remove the Insurance payout for Concorded ships and have Concord jam drones. Then wait to see if suicide ganking is still a problem. There is indeed an issue of balance here. Suicide ganking SHOULD be possible - but the debate seems to center on how PROFITABLE it should be. So take the obvious steps first (Remove insureance and remove a drone exploit), then see if further adjustment is needed. I would also like to ask those claiming 'don't move expensive stuff' to better defend their position. While I agree an AFK Tier 1 hauler loaded with Tech 2 gear in its hold might not be a good idea, I don't see how that arguement can be used against Freighters. By definition, a Freighter will have lots of cargo worth lots of money. The argument basically states that its your own fault because you trained and bought a certain ship type. The fact that the ship type was DESIGNED to carry large amounts of cargo implies that the very existence of Freighters is an Exploit in the making. Since I don't think that argument will hold water, I'd ask the opposing side to explain exactly what Freighters are for. Are they roaming baskets of goodies or a workhorse of Industry? OMG Signed1!!
Xedrik Amarr Supernova Industries	Posted - 2007.06.08 17:50:00 - [76] Edited by: Xedrik on 08/06/2007 17:55:16 Originally by: Drasked You have to agree that the main reason it is easy for people to gank in highsec and for it to be profitable is in the hands of the victim. To some degree, yes I do. However, I still do think that my ideas could balance the game further, in favor for both parts. Making it a bit harder for the pirates, as it should be in empire space (but not impossible), and giving the traders more options to defend themselves. Because as I've stated before, the pirate doesn't risk to loose as much as the trader (doesn't matter if the trader got friends to defend or not, the pirate could just bring more ships to help him take it down). Originally by: Xedrik But as it is now i think i have plenty of means to not get ganked in high sec, mainly because it has never happend to me, and the reprecussions atm are bad enough to make it unattractive for me to gank in highsec. I guess you don't regularly haul stuff worth billions in populated areas, well I don't blame you, neither do I. Mostly because of the risk involved in it, and I don't have the resources to defend myself properly from pirates either (since I can't trust in CONCORD doing that quickly enough). So by being short on options on how to protect myself from pirates in empire space, I don't trade at all. That's why I'd like some more options, so I'd be able to trade as well, to at least feel more safe, if you get what I mean... Originally by: Drasked Well the reason its not profitable to do this in 0.0 is because its common knowledge that afking an itty with 2bil in stuff on trough 0.0 is stupid, only if people would consider the same for high-sec. Not profitable? Of course it's profitable, I wouldn't think that all those pirates I've run into would gank in lowsec just for fun. It's just less profitable then doing the same in empire, however the profit is far higher then the risk involved. At least that's how I see it. And honestly... You can't just blame it on their stupidity, and even if you could, that would be enough reason for CCP to do something about it. Even a stupid player needs something to lean on, that makes them feel secure (not saying they should be). Their stupidity will make them loose in the end anyway. At least they're smart enough to not haul 1bil with an indy through lowsec... Well, most of them at least =D --- "Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war."
Xedrik Amarr Supernova Industries	Posted - 2007.06.08 18:00:00 - [77] Anyway, could a GM/Dev from CCP lock this thread. I feel that it's made it's purpose. I was only looking to share my ideas, but instead resulted in a huge flame war. :/ --- "Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war."
Hajyt Caldari EnTech Pax Familia	Posted - 2007.06.08 18:39:00 - [78] Or.... Realize that every post made about empire suicide ganking being profitable basically convinces more people to do it. I transport things all the time in high sec, I just don't haul billions at once...and I find a low populated route. Just play smart and we wouldn't have this problem.
Rabbitual Ferrier	Posted - 2007.06.08 21:50:00 - [79] I think there is a very simple way that just about every smuggler character probably knows. Unfortuantely its quite a useful tactic that I won't share. Unless the fee is high enough
Talon Calais Gallente Nubs. D-L	Posted - 2007.06.08 22:02:00 - [80] 1.) Small high value: Carry it in a tanked assault frig or nano/stabbed inty 2.) Larger high value: Cloaking T2 Hauler or Tanked BS The last time I moved officer loot into empire I used an Arazu, think before you post people. I'm sure there's a CCP post on here somewhere stating: "You are not 100% safe anywhere in the EVE Universe."

Vala Draaken Madhatters Inc. M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.06.08 22:56:00 - [81] Originally by: Ryas Nia High sec has always been described as a safer place for younger players to get started in the game. Thank you Ryas. This is argument hit the the nail perfectly. High-sec is a place where new players can be a little safer. Once you start hauling hundreds of millions in cargo, you are no longer a new player. This is exactly why, Eve no longer protects you. If you want to haul that much, you have to make your own security. Either you have friends, corp mates or hire someone that can protect you, or if you choose to solo, you can take your vaulable loads in safer ships and smaller loads. This also fits very well with something I saw CCP say once. It was in a thread discussing another problem, with lots of people complaining why it had to be so hard to do it alone. Probably also involving piracy. It went something like this: "There's nothing wrong with playing Eve solo, but it's much safer and profitable to do it in a group." Something along those lines. Vala D.
Cipher7 Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.06.08 23:31:00 - [82] How to solve suicide ganking : Go play a consentual pvp (wussy pvp) game.
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2007.06.08 23:59:00 - [83] Quote: Yes, if they really want to attack you, nothing should prevent it. They will be punished afterwards ofcource for their misdeed. Just like in real life. you probably should'nt use lame real life analogies when trying to defend something that would NEVER be allowed to occur in real life in the first place. Being police catching the criminal but letting him go along with what ever he stole. the issue for most is not that if someone really wants to attack you, the issue is they should not be able to profit from that action in empire. the real issue is CCP is to lazy to flag the cans or wrecks, and people exploit that simply issue to loot with alts or friends, who are immune to any real recourse yet are part of the crime.


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