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Pottsey
Gallente
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2007.06.12 06:28:00 -
[1]
ôI heard to level 5 in advanced skills will take like 3,8 years in avarage to pay off.ö
ItÆs no where near that long. The problem is most people assume you can train a skill instead of adv5. But if you train a skill that comes out after you got adv5 then payoff is drastically shorter.
Payoff is the point when you have more useful skills points with adv5 then without adv5. ThatÆs not a set number/amount of time its diffrent for eveyone.
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Pottsey
Gallente
Enheduanni Foundation
|
Posted - 2007.06.12 12:18:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Pottsey on 12/06/2007 12:18:16
ôI mean, you get 1SP every minute from the primary stat. Say you train Clarity from 4->5, thats a 407295sp increment if Im not terribly mistaken. To catch up those skilpoints you would have to train any skill with perception as primary for that amount of minutes, thats 282 days. Longer if you mix in skills with it as secondary.ö
Except for thatÆs wrong for some people itÆs the adv4 person whoÆs playing catch-up not adv5 and the adv4 person is falling further and further behind.
You cannot always train another skill instead of adv5. For example gang assist I couldnÆt train it before I got adv5 so there was no catch-up. With my example 1 day after getting adv5 I am ahead with more useful skill points with adv5 over having adv4. Not 282 days. 100days into training and I am days ahead of adv4. Not 282days.
ôwhatever has perception as primary, for more than 282 days you train Clarity to 5. If not then you stay at 4. Same goes for every other learning skill. No?ö
I donÆt agree. Say you want to become a capital ship pilot but you donÆt have the isk to buy the capital ship skills. It makes more sense to train adv5 earn isk then buy all the capital skills and then train those cap skills. The second you start training those capital skills your ahead over where you would be if you had adv4. It doesnÆt take 282days for payoff as you couldnÆt have spent time training those skills instead of adv5.
Another example I have adv5 now. When Rev 2 hits a bunch of new skills com out I get them and train them faster then adv4 people pulling me head even more. If your not going train new skills stick to adv4, if you train lots of new skills get adv5.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Pottsey
Gallente
Enheduanni Foundation
|
Posted - 2007.06.13 06:18:00 -
[3]
ôIt is faulty logic because you assume the skill you are waiting for is the only skill you will benefit from. You may be 9 days ahead in gang assist, but you paid for it with about 10- 12 days per adv5 of something else. If thats your goal then your right, but your charracter will be overall weaker for it until you've caught up with your other skills.
I donÆt assume that the only skill I am waiting for is the only one to benefit. I even said if you have skills to train now then adv5 isnÆt worth it. Its not faulty logic on my part you reading my post wrong.
As I said before adv5 is only worth it if youÆre going to spend a lot of time training skills you donÆt have or cannot get before you get adv5. If you have lots of current skills that are needed doing adv4 is best.
ôOk, you saved 9 days of training. But you spent 12 days (or 24+ if you count the secondary skill as well) to get that advantage. So you aren't 9 days ahead, you're still 3 days behind.ö
Go back and read what I wrote. I said I was ahead in useful skillpoints which I am. I am ahead in total skillpoints as well. Different skills have different values. If itÆs a choice between say multitasking lvl 5 or learning adv5 then being 9 days ahead the adv5 path is better.
I gave up 1 skill I didnÆt really need to lvl 5 to gain gang assist early then spend 9 days on say 3 rig type of skills and clone jumping and a few others. Losing 1 skill thatÆs not needed to gain 4+ skills that are needed is not 3days behind. Well in truth I gave up one skill I didnÆt need to train 30+skills that came out after I got adv5
ôAdvanced 5 learning skills are not a pre-requisite to gang assist skills (because they are a pre-requisite to nothing...a broad category which includes all other skills), so this statement is just a lie.ö
ItÆs not a lie it was true. ItÆs got nothing to do pre-requisite skills, stop twisting my words. I couldnÆt train gang assist as it wasnÆt out and being and old player I had nothing else of value to train. So getting adv5 didnÆt slow me down it speeded me up as the new profession came out and I got them faster. Once you maxed your current profession getting adv5 can be useful to learn any new professions that come out at a latter date. adv4 people fall behind when learning new professions.
ôou lack the funds, so whats the best thing you can do while you get the isk? Train adv5? No, you train adv. drone interfacing, jump drive operation, jump drive calibration and that kind of stuff.ö
I was including the support skills into it as well as they are not cheap. It was just an example. If you can afford the support skills then train those instead.
ôThere only other interpretation is measuring total skillpoints, which is a red herring.ö
Your method is even worse. You make it sound like I am worse off for 439 days when in fact I am much better off with more useful skill points.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Pottsey
Gallente
Enheduanni Foundation
|
Posted - 2007.06.13 11:51:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Pottsey on 13/06/2007 11:50:57
ôIt makes it sound like you are worse off for 439 days because you -are- worse off for 439 days. For 439 days, the person who stops at advanced 4 has more skillpoints in non-learning skills than you have. That's why we call it the payoff time.ö
Lets try this one more time. Yes the adv4 guy has more none learning skillpoints. But he has less useful skillpoints. At lest in my case this isnÆt always true. If he has more useful skillpoints then adv5 has paid its self back and been worth while. If not adv4 is better.
If I have more skills and more useful skillpoints due to adv5 how can I be worse off! Yet you are insisting I am worse off. If had adv4 I would have less skills and less useful skillpoints.
If you follow my warfare example adv5 has a totle of 120 ish odd skills while adv4 is around 110 all because adv4 is still catching up to the new skills that adv5 has already trained.
Which one is better off adv4 with 110 skills 2 or 3 of which adv 5 doesnÆt have but doesnÆt need. Or adv5 who has 120 skills as he finished the new skills long before adv4 so could move onto more new skills. New skills which adv4 guy wants/needs?
I donÆt see how adv5 is worse off there. He is better off. Clearly this is not always the case but its not as simple as you make it out to be. If you have a lot of must have skills to train then stick to adv4 unless your going be around a long time.
ôIt's really very simple. Your explanations, however, are anything but simple, since they require the reader to ignore weeks of training time to come to your conclusions.ö
First your solution is oversimplified and misleading. ItÆs not as simple as you say. YouÆre treating every skill as though itÆs worth the same amount, which is wrong. Pay off is the point when you have more useful skillpoints due to adv5 then if you had adv4. This isnÆt a set number as different skills are worth different amounts and that change's per pilot and even per patch. Its not 1 year plus it can be anything from 1 day to 3 months or longer. As I said before if you have lots to train now adv4 is best if you have what you need and something new is coming out or you cannot afford it yet adv5 is best.
2nd how can you still not get it. I do not ignore or expect people to ignore the weeks of training time. Why do you keep saying that?. Its not magic that require no training time. Look at Akita T post he gets it.
Say I was a minor and I maxed out the mining profession. You say I should train adv4 and then some useless skill that has nothing to do with my profession as its better. I say once the profession is maxed out train adv5 then when the new profession come out later you can learn them faster so youÆre better off with more useful skillpoints. This happend to me with mining and cargo ships. I maxed out both got adv5 and T2 mining and cargoships came out. I was better off due to adv5 then if I had adv4.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Pottsey
Gallente
Enheduanni Foundation
|
Posted - 2007.06.16 14:58:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Pottsey on 16/06/2007 15:03:36
ôYou don't have more useful skills, you have more Skill Points, which isn't the same thing.ö
No I have more useful and more total. Why is it so hard to understand? Adv5 let me finish a new profession days before I could have with adv4. I then went onto learn a 2nd and 3rd new profession.
ô2. Now train the same skills with only level 4. What is the total time?
The total time for 2. is less than 1. when the total time for 1. is less than 3 years.ö
The time for 2 is not less then option 1 with adv5. Option 2 with adv4 is 9 days longer witht eh skills I used after less then 1 year. I see you still donÆt understand what I am tying to explain. Not sure how else to explain it.
ôREAL WORLD EXAMPLE
A person builds a car in 1 day that can travel at 500 miles per day.ö
I used a real ingame example the numbers I posted are based on my own skills and my own skill training path. With adv5 I finished my planed skill training far faster then I would have with adv4 all in less then 1 year. ThatÆs a fact. So telling my I have less useful skill points and better of with adv4 is wrong.
ôAdv 5 is great if you need to spend 4 years getting skills, BUT you will get your list of skills QUICKER with lvl 4 if your total time is less than 4 years.ö
YouÆre half wrong. Adv4 only gets you skills quicker if you already have the skills to learn intread of learning adv5. If the skills are not out yet as itÆs a new profession then adv5 gets the skill quicker.
In my examples adv4 doesnÆt get the list of skills quicker itÆs slower. Which is best adv4 or adv5 all depends on which skills your getting or are going to get later on. Its not a case of one is always better then the other.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Pottsey
Gallente
Enheduanni Foundation
|
Posted - 2007.06.17 15:31:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Pottsey on 17/06/2007 15:31:32
ônot the game in general, as this is only valid for older players who were around before many of the current skills were in the game.ö
ItÆs also valid for new players who want to learn new skills and profession due out in add-on packs. It also covers skills that a player cannot afford yet. But true doesnÆt apply to everyone.
Then thereÆs changeÆs you donÆt expect. For example you might never have trained Stealth bombers or missile skills but if you had adv5 and suddenly want state bombers due to the upcoming changeÆs you get to your goal faster weeks faster then if you had adv4.
Due to the changeÆs I will be training up my Logistical ship skills to max next. Something that was never on my plan before so I wouldnt have trained them before adv5.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Pottsey
Gallente
Enheduanni Foundation
|
Posted - 2007.06.21 18:16:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Pottsey on 21/06/2007 18:14:48
ôBy the way - Pottsey is completely wrong...... and even then, the advantage is what - a couple hours? Advanced 5 = useless.ö
I am not completely wrong and it not hours. I am weekÆs ahead due to adv5 over if I had adv4. Weeks is not useless.
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