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RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed
RED.Legion
1125
   |
Posted - 2012.01.04 00:51:00 -
[1] - Quote
phalanx warriorll wrote:i guess i'm just making the point that there are huge amounts of untapped resources in .4 systems that we should be able to get at. if its that big of an issue wiht large alliances being isk grubbing whores ccp can always limit the number of low sec moons null sec allinaces have. or null sec alliances can stay in null sec since they have every thing they need there already.either way it should be addressed and see if a solution can be found.
How would you try to limit that?
If a Sov holding Alliance is limited X moons, but has the resources to control more, well, that's what Alt alliances/Corps are for. Set it up right and you don't need more than a few people's alts to actually be in that alliance/Corp.
Any mechanical limit on player collusion is doomed to failure, 'cause the Eve players (as a whole) bring more collected IQ point/hours than CCP (not saying CCP be dum, but 50k players with an average IQ of 20 would bring a larger collected IQ pool than CCP's 500 people with an average IQ of 200). So we'll bend and break any mechanic that has any weakness, and any mechanic designed to limit the size of a player group is inherently weak due to the fact that collusion is the inevitable result of a social, competitive game.
tl;dr More Moon Goo = Lower Moon goo Prices, but the ISK will all go to the same groups. (FYI one of the largest Tech holding Alliances didn't hold Sov anywhere last I checked)
Totally a Fake Edit: Looks Like PL took 4 stations in 6 systems last month, but they're not exactly near their Tech holdings. |
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed
RED.Legion
1130
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Posted - 2012.01.04 11:05:00 -
[2] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:Until CCP figures out a way that moon mining is not static (like it is now) and the must-have moon elements slowly wax/wane over the course of a year or migrate around from region to region - things are going to stay stuffed.
Maybe you have to re-survey after existing deposits run dry. Maybe you run out of element X after a month or two (if you harvest it quickly), then you don't get lucky at finding a new source of element X until the RNG decides to put a new deposit where you can find it. Or you have to consider doing ninja-surveying of another corporation's moons, find a sweet deposit that they're not exploiting, and take their space.
(Ease of power projection is a whole 'nother issue. And I'd rather see them add a 2nd ring of null-sec around the existing null over opening up 0.4; which would make the map larger and more spread out and might nullify some of the ease with which you can control half the map. Or allow moon-mining in w-space.)
God god no. I've only had to survey a few systems, and each one is the work of 2-3 hours. There are some 3300 Nullsec Systems and 800 Lowsec systems (Call it 4000 systems with mineable moons). Given a guess at an average 30 moons per system (I think that's conservative, but whatever).
Scanning Time lower boundry (1 moon - 10min scan/system) = 27.7 Man Days and ~800mil Isk in probes.
Assuming a 2 minute average per moon (warping +10 min at the end of each system, seems like a sane number) = 166.6 Man Days of scanning. and ~24 Billion isk in probes.
Scanning moons sucks. It's boring, dangerous (not everyone can manage to set their POS aggro right), and takes forever.
An alliance should have to do it Once and only Once when they move in. The furniture in their house shoudn't randomly move around while they're using it. |
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed
RED.Legion
1137
|
Posted - 2012.01.05 02:50:00 -
[3] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:RubyPorto wrote:
God god no. I've only had to survey a few systems, and each one is the work of 2-3 hours. There are some 3300 Nullsec Systems and 800 Lowsec systems (Call it 4000 systems with mineable moons). Given a guess at an average 30 moons per system (I think that's conservative, but whatever).
Yes, the current moon surveying system is rather horrid and painful. At a minimum, they would have to change it so that you can plant the probe and get results on everything within a 1AU or 5AU range (skill-based? +3AU per level?). Which would cut the time drastically as you could do a single 10-second scan anywhere within a few AU of the planet and get results for every moon within range. (Similar to how a survey scanner module works.) Obviously, some null-sec should be better then other null-sec, or there's no reason to fight for a particular area. The design question is whether that attractiveness should be fixed in stone for all time, or whether it should change with heavy usage.
I see the sense in having moving moon goo, but the biggest concerns I have with it are:
1. A small Alliance who's space suddenly has a pricy moon is going to get Curb stomped. A *LOT*
2. Having to uproot and follow the moons would kill the idea of making a home for your Alliance (to me, nomadic lifestyle = WHs, NPC null, or what have you, not SOV space)
3. No matter how you change moon scanning, moving moons means vast amounts of effectively required extra work. Even if the average were 5min per system, 13 man days of tedium per alliance every month or whatever is a horrible thing to do to alliance leadership and logistics people (you think the grunts are going to be willing/trusted to scan moons?). We live in Null because we like to fight. Static moons let us spend more time and effort fighting and less time doing other stuff. Static moons also give us places to fight over.
Dynamic Moons seem to me to be similar to ideas about Dynamic Sec Level. Cool idea in theory, but would be a horrible pain in practice. (Want to move to a new agent every time the sec level of the system goes from .5 to 1.0? Moving large quantities of stuff around in Null is worse.)
Oh, and my solution to the idea that there's market manipulation on Tech, shoot the people who are doing it. Hisec is certainly wealthy and populous enough.
(Disclaimer: as far as I know, my alliance doesn't rely on Tech for income, so shooting Tech holders might benefit my alliance) |
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed
RED.Legion
1146
|
Posted - 2012.01.06 23:27:00 -
[4] - Quote
phalanx warriorll wrote:i'm still think that ccp should allow the use of the moons in .4 low sec throught dust514 when if comes out but have it be under certin conditions like complete control of a planet. that ay you havet o fight for it kinda like in null sec
What problem do you have that opening .4 to mining would fix?
High Prices? Those might go down a bit, but I don't think the prices of T2 goods are all that high.
Income not going to you? Yeah, the same people who own moons now will own the new ones.
Some idea that because the moons are coded with goo they should be mineable? Two words. Jove Space. |
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed
RED.Legion
1147
|
Posted - 2012.01.07 05:19:00 -
[5] - Quote
phalanx warriorll wrote:my point has nothing to do with making t2 stuff, or reactions. yes they are a part of the whole moon mining thing. yes you cna make lots of iskies doing that stuff. my point is why have an area with tech moons in it and then not be able to use them at all. its asnine. thats my whole point. not this **** where the major alliances are going to take it over. it might happen ccp should devise a way to rectify that then. all this pissing and moaning about this and that. this thread is not for that. its about unexploited resources that we are denied. and i for one would like to see that fixed so that we have full access to the resources in low and null sec for everyone. and i would like to hear some ideas about how that might be changed so that the resources can be used. not more bs about how it will fail or bashing remarks. you want to make redundant remarks and bash other ppl's ideaas take your ass to another post. keep your bs off mine
They aren't tech moons. They are no different from the moons in hisec with scannable materials. They are scanning practice targets and newbie bait.
Moon goo doesn't do anything besides getting reacted. Reaction products don't do anything besides being built into components. Components don't do anything but become T2 products. Those actually do stuff.
The resources in low and nullsec are available to everyone. There is nothing stopping you from taking the space and resources (or even just the resources) of the nullsec alliances you so malign. Remember, for most of last year PL was 2 things: one of the biggest Tech holding groups in the game, and not a Sov holding alliance.
The fact that you can't get enough people together to take a moon is:
a) Not CCP's problem
b) A Game Feature
c) Hilarious because of the QQ it inspires
d) All of the above
I weren't too good at dem SATs, you give it a shot.
You seem to want 2 things.
1. To open up a segment of heretofore unavailable resources to the players of the game.
2. To deny a subset of those players access to those resources via GM fiat. |
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed
RED.Legion
1147
|
Posted - 2012.01.07 06:38:00 -
[6] - Quote
Jarnis McPieksu wrote:
Holding space has nothing to do with moon mining. Moon is mined by whoever has a POS there. One of the largest Technetium moon holder (Pandemic Legion) holds no 0.0 sov - they still have POSes on a lot of moons around New Eden. They simply took them and are willing to take on anyone who would challenge the fact that those POSes are on those moons.
I mentioned that earlier, but it seems PL went and grabbed a half dozen stations in December. |
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed
RED.Legion
1147
|
Posted - 2012.01.07 06:59:00 -
[7] - Quote
Jarnis McPieksu wrote:RubyPorto wrote:Jarnis McPieksu wrote:
Holding space has nothing to do with moon mining. Moon is mined by whoever has a POS there. One of the largest Technetium moon holder (Pandemic Legion) holds no 0.0 sov - they still have POSes on a lot of moons around New Eden. They simply took them and are willing to take on anyone who would challenge the fact that those POSes are on those moons.
I mentioned that earlier, but it seems PL went and grabbed a half dozen stations in December. Hmm, well those are still not in any way related to their moon miner POS network :)
But they managed to troll all of us who've been saying they're not a SOV holding alliance.  |
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed
RED.Legion
1152
|
Posted - 2012.01.08 20:33:00 -
[8] - Quote
phalanx warriorll wrote:WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!. you ppl are really stupid lol. completely avoid the fact of what i said, and try and twist it into something else. well since nothing but a bunch of sov holding whores has posted. guess we had better just do what they say. since they have missed the point entirely. but it obvious that they dont want anything to change since they wouldnt have all the power they currently hold. and for the record, when did i say anythign about me or my corp wanting to occupy a ******* tech moon. your putting words in my mouth so to speak. and i wont tolerate that from any **** bag in a game or in real life and i dont care if ccp does anything with this thread. but your just making my point about trolling. your making assumptions, well that makes an ass outta you and me and its the mother of all **** ups but seriously. are you that pathetic that you have to try and twist things to turn it into something else other then what its intended for???
If we missed your point, please enlighten us about what your point is.
You say you want all moons in 0.4 space opened up for mining.
We ask "Why?"
I'd love if you could toss in some reasonable capitalization, spelling, grammar, and learn to avoid the damn filter if you're gonna curse.
You see some resources that can't be got. That means they aren't resources. They're scenery. And that keeps the big boys out of the 0.4 space kiddy pool of POS ownership.
FYI: Tech, Dyspro, and Neodymium are the only ones that remotely make a profit over fuel costs. |
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed
RED.Legion
1155
|
Posted - 2012.01.09 03:20:00 -
[9] - Quote
Red Teufel wrote:
you seem new to this. ever done moon reactions?
You seem new to this. Ever read a whole thread?
OP was talking about the unusable materials on the moon. I suggested that he mine or do reactions in 0.3 or lower systems, since the mechanics are identical (except for being able to moon mine and react, ofc).
phalanx warriorll wrote:ALOT of unused resorces in low sec especially .4 systems.
phalanx warriorll wrote:my point has nothing to do with making t2 stuff, or reactions.
PS. I don't think you're incapable of reading threads, Red. In fact, in that you understand punctuation and that reactions are very nice, I consider you several steps above the average forum user. |
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed
RED.Legion
1237
|
Posted - 2012.01.20 01:09:00 -
[10] - Quote
phalanx warriorll wrote:as red pointed out that with alliances being able to join faction warfare that would be the perfect time for ccp to open up the .4 system moons to moon mining. why the hell not it will change things. ccp should set it up so that only alliances/corps in faction warfare can hold and mine moons in .4 systems. that would make things very interesting. and there would still be power plays and fighting for these resources.
Ok, tech holding alliances will make an FW alt alliance. They'll defend the POS timer with their normal fleet, and you still won't be happy. Tech moons are to geographically concentrated and too individually valuable for small(ish) groups to have any chance at holding one.
Prior to the Tech bottleneck, the R64s are geographically dispersed and numerous enough that their prices stayed low enough to allow small groups to take a few as they grew. R64s would have fixed by Alchemy, but no, CCP has to put two changes in anytine they change something (even if the tech bottleneck was forewarned)
dAWwww, here he goes. -áPoastin' Drunk agin. |
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