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NOS and Recon Advantages: Why are they so strong now?

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Zeddy Minmatar Deep Space Colony	Posted - 2007.06.11 02:22:00 - [1] Edited by: Zeddy on 11/06/2007 02:29:15 I'm hearing alot of discussions on fitting up recon ships with massive NOS (read Curse) and having a huge advantage against battlecruisers and battleships even with significant drone outfitting. Why is there such a huge advantage to cloaking at this point within the game and the single power drain with very limited counters? This combination seems to be unbalancing this game significantly and at the cost of alot of ships that require much more extensive training (read command ships that will be nerfed and are NOS-immune). How long can this stand without having some major adjustment, i.e cloak detection anyone? and for god's sake SUBSYSTEM TARGETTING NOW. I haven't played a single major sci-fi space combat game that hasn't had subsystem targetting. I realize this is "planned" but didn't hear it in Revelations 2.
tarin adur Gallente Einherjar Rising	Posted - 2007.06.11 03:55:00 - [2] Recons can stay cloaked all day,then show up unexpectedly and gank someone while ratting, And nos is a module with no counter,that boosts you while destroying your enemy and feeding your ship with much needed cap. And no...Cap injector does not Directly counter nos,nor does it do anything to stop your inevitable demise...it only delays it.
Acinonyx Jubatus International Multi-Player Consortium Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.11 05:15:00 - [3] Curse/pilgrim get a bonus to nos/neut, so it's understandable to use them on those( along with the Cruor/Ashimmu/Bhaalgorn). Specially with their supply of drones and drone bonuses, other recons fitting nos are of no "real" benefit if they cna be setup to use their range for their ewar bonuses like they should. It really depends on the ship I guess, some can fit nos or fit turret/missiles, or anything else, just depends on what you're aiming to do really.
Disima Santet Minmatar Aziam	Posted - 2007.06.11 05:43:00 - [4] Originally by: tarin adur Recons can stay cloaked all day,then show up unexpectedly and gank someone while ratting, And nos is a module with no counter,that boosts you while destroying your enemy and feeding your ship with much needed cap. And no...Cap injector does not Directly counter nos,nor does it do anything to stop your inevitable demise...it only delays it. A lot of things don't have counter-modules. Take guns for example - your opponent arms with those and this leads to "your inevitable demise" ;)
Acinonyx Jubatus International Multi-Player Consortium Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.11 05:45:00 - [5] Originally by: Disima Santet Originally by: tarin adur Recons can stay cloaked all day,then show up unexpectedly and gank someone while ratting, And nos is a module with no counter,that boosts you while destroying your enemy and feeding your ship with much needed cap. And no...Cap injector does not Directly counter nos,nor does it do anything to stop your inevitable demise...it only delays it. A lot of things don't have counter-modules. Take guns for example - your opponent arms with those and this leads to "your inevitable demise" ;) Tracking disruptors, but that takes up a midslot.
Darwinia Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.11 06:15:00 - [6] Yes, tracking disruptors.. just one tech 1 will make all guns on the enemy ship only 50% effective. I would kill for a module that makes all NOS on an enemy ship 50% effective ------------------------ I don't believe in sigs.
Ralara Caldari Exanimo Inc Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.06.11 06:28:00 - [7] Originally by: Darwinia Yes, tracking disruptors.. just one tech 1 will make all guns on the enemy ship only 50% effective. I would kill for a module that makes all NOS on an enemy ship 50% effective ECM.
OldPueblo H.Y.D.R.A. GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.06.11 06:47:00 - [8] Originally by: Darwinia Yes, tracking disruptors.. just one tech 1 will make all guns on the enemy ship only 50% effective. I would kill for a module that makes all NOS on an enemy ship 50% effective Damps.
Setana Manoro Gallente Firefly Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.11 07:12:00 - [9] ECM drones or Damp drones. PS: Against a recon go with Damp drones, they have a HUGE sensor strength and they are tougher to jam than a Tier 3 BS. --- Adopt a goon today, goons need lub and support too. Do you want him out in the cold, starving ?
Jacob Holland Gallente 19th Star Logistics	Posted - 2007.06.11 07:16:00 - [10] Not against a recon. Not unless you're using a rack of them on a ship with bonuses (and if they're fitting one then that means using a Lachesis or an Arazu - another recon). -- Originally by: cordy Respect to IAC .Your one of the few people who truly deserve to own and live in the space you are in.
Morreia The Celestial Element	Posted - 2007.06.11 08:27:00 - [11] Originally by: Setana Manoro ECM drones or Damp drones. PS: Against a recon go with Damp drones, they have a HUGE sensor strength and they are tougher to jam than a Tier 3 BS. You do realise a curse can target out to somethign like 169km don't you?
Argen Tano	Posted - 2007.06.11 09:51:00 - [12] Originally by: Zeddy Edited by: Zeddy on 11/06/2007 02:29:15 I'm hearing alot of discussions on fitting up recon ships with massive NOS (read Curse) and having a huge advantage against battlecruisers and battleships even with significant drone outfitting. Why is there such a huge advantage to cloaking at this point within the game and the single power drain with very limited counters? This combination seems to be unbalancing this game significantly and at the cost of alot of ships that require much more extensive training (read command ships that will be nerfed and are NOS-immune). How long can this stand without having some major adjustment, i.e cloak detection anyone? and for god's sake SUBSYSTEM TARGETTING NOW. I haven't played a single major sci-fi space combat game that hasn't had subsystem targetting. I realize this is "planned" but didn't hear it in Revelations 2. Well, the curse can't cloak (not cov ops cloak anyways). So don't know what you're on about there. But anyways, if you've looked at the dev blog. You'd see that they're actualy making cloaked ships detectable by probes next patch. As for nos.. no counter? Well, with all the 0 cap weaponry in the game, like missiles, projectiles, drones and the popularity of passive tanks (sorry amarr, boned again), and the fact that heavy nos setups, sacrifices dps. I'd wouldn't exactly say that there's no counter for nos boats... And this is not even considdering EW.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.06.11 10:15:00 - [13] Originally by: Darwinia Yes, tracking disruptors.. just one tech 1 will make all guns on the enemy ship only 50% effective. They don't. They reduce the optimal by 50% - which does you a big fat nothing if you are still within range or if your target uses blasters or ACs which are not really hurt much by that (falloff isn't effected) and they reduce tracking, which also does not help you much if you cannot keep an high enough transversal to exploit that. For example, a pilgrim with 2 t2 TDs and the spec at 4 (-> reduction to 13% of the old values) can definately disable even a blasterthron enough to be able to orbit it while webbed by him with an AB fast enough to avoid hits. Do the same thing with something with medium sized blasters or ACs and you will melt since those ships have enough speed to negate your transversal. If TDs would simply reduce gun DPS by x they would be far stronger.
Xequecal	Posted - 2007.06.11 10:36:00 - [14] Tracking Disruptors are still useable, they're just not as good as damps. If dampeners get nerfed like everyone is calling for, it really won't affect the nanocurse at all. 2x TD + small injector (to run the MWD when your target caps out) still makes you unhittable by guns when you have MWD active. You're out of range of any potential NOS and you're going way too fast for missiles to significantly damage anyway.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.06.11 11:26:00 - [15] Originally by: Xequecal you're going way too fast for missiles to significantly damage anyway. Only with a faction+snake fit. You get around a 3 km/s orbit speed without faction or snakes which, while giving you a decent damage reduction, isn't enough to really "tank" missiles with the curse since it's tank is pretty much non-existant. And in either case, I was speaking more of the pilgrim which cannot use the same tactics as a curse.
sandamar Gallente COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.06.11 11:39:00 - [16] First of all, the curse doesn't have any cloacking device cpu reduction bonus. It is the pilgrim. And i think they're good. FFS is that so hard for people to see that there is a very good amarr ship in the game. Wait amarr got a good ship "OMG nerf that an amarr ship can be dangerous against me!!" Leave this ship alone please, and stop whining. We are the race that suffers the most against the nos ship, and we can finally have one drone nosing boat and you want it nerf come on. Leave with the facts that some amarr ship can be dangerous thanks.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.06.11 11:40:00 - [17] counter to nos = ecm!
Morreia The Celestial Element	Posted - 2007.06.11 11:44:00 - [18] Originally by: d026 counter to nos = ecm! Hard to do when your fighting a curse and damped down so hard that you can't lock to get an ECM on them. If CCP did to damps what they did to ECM (apart from maybe not quite the same), as in make them only propally useful on dedicated ships and I think problem solved.
Argen Tano	Posted - 2007.06.11 12:13:00 - [19] Edited by: Argen Tano on 11/06/2007 12:13:33 Yeah, let's nerf everything until theres no diversity left in the game at all. Spank and tank - none of them fancy city folk electromotonic warfare thingymadoos.
Morreia The Celestial Element	Posted - 2007.06.11 12:27:00 - [20] Originally by: Argen Tano Edited by: Argen Tano on 11/06/2007 12:13:33 Yeah, let's nerf everything until theres no diversity left in the game at all. Spank and tank - none of them fancy city folk electromotonic warfare thingymadoos. Fine, then what would you do when there is a snaked up curse running around you nosing you and dampening you? The curse will still be able to use EW just not damps. If the other EW aren't going to be nerfed in the same way that ECM was then put ECM back so thats its more usable on ships apart from BB, rook falcon and scorp.
Argen Tano	Posted - 2007.06.11 13:05:00 - [21] Edited by: Argen Tano on 11/06/2007 13:10:59 Edited by: Argen Tano on 11/06/2007 13:10:19 Edited by: Argen Tano on 11/06/2007 13:05:32 Originally by: Morreia Fine, then what would you do when there is a snaked up curse running around you nosing you and dampening you? The curse will still be able to use EW just not damps. If the other EW aren't going to be nerfed in the same way that ECM was then put ECM back so thats its more usable on ships apart from BB, rook falcon and scorp. Give him kudos for flying around with a setup that worth upwards to 1 billion isk... And then laugh my behind of, as I activate sensorboosters, and my mate jumps in a huginn...
Morreia The Celestial Element	Posted - 2007.06.11 14:20:00 - [22] Originally by: Argen Tano Edited by: Argen Tano on 11/06/2007 13:10:59 Edited by: Argen Tano on 11/06/2007 13:10:19 Edited by: Argen Tano on 11/06/2007 13:05:32 Originally by: Morreia Fine, then what would you do when there is a snaked up curse running around you nosing you and dampening you? The curse will still be able to use EW just not damps. If the other EW aren't going to be nerfed in the same way that ECM was then put ECM back so thats its more usable on ships apart from BB, rook falcon and scorp. Give him kudos for flying around with a setup that worth upwards to 1 billion isk... And then laugh my behind of, as I activate sensorboosters, and my mate jumps in a huginn... Any nanocurse who is stupid enough to carry on fighting when a huginn comes into system deserves to die, and you mean those sensor boosters that you just happen to have 2 of along with the 4 needed PvP modules? Also depending on what ship you fly you may be dead by the time the huginn enters system, I'm not sure what ships you usually fly but also even if you could lock the guy it will most likely not make any diference meaning your only defence is a mate in a huginn, which can easily be countered by another nanocurse jumping in... Ooh the joys.
Baudolino Gallente Zer0 ToLeRaNcE Terror In The System	Posted - 2007.06.11 14:24:00 - [23] Originally by: Morreia Fine, then what would you do when there is a snaked up curse running around you nosing you and dampening you? I`d kill his drones and let him drain my cap. When his cap is gone and he`S no longer able to MWD i`d cross my fingres and hope my drones actualy work and attack the agressor.. Depending on the circumstance i`d maybe activate my cap injector and try to get inside locking range and spend my cap before he drains it..
Argen Tano	Posted - 2007.06.11 14:29:00 - [24] well, that's the entire point isn't it... You're saying that damps should be nerfed, because you're having a hard time killing a curse with some 600-800mill worth of equipment/implants. AFTER he has allready locked you down. Is this a valid argument you think? I can name quite a few 1v1 scenarios, where 1 ship could lock the other down, and it would be helpless without outside intervention. Does this meen we should start nerfing anything that can cause such an situation?
Morreia The Celestial Element	Posted - 2007.06.11 14:30:00 - [25] Originally by: Baudolino Originally by: Morreia Fine, then what would you do when there is a snaked up curse running around you nosing you and dampening you? I`d kill his drones and let him drain my cap. When his cap is gone and he`S no longer able to MWD i`d cross my fingres and hope my drones actualy work and attack the agressor.. Depending on the circumstance i`d maybe activate my cap injector and try to get inside locking range and spend my cap before he drains it.. Unless you fit an smart bomb or sensor booster's trying to kill his drones may prove quite tricky, his MWD will carry on running and he'll prob kill your drones anyway... NEXT!!!
Morreia The Celestial Element	Posted - 2007.06.11 14:34:00 - [26] Originally by: Argen Tano well, that's the entire point isn't it... You're saying that damps should be nerfed, because you're having a hard time killing a curse with some 600-800mill worth of equipment/implants. AFTER he has allready locked you down. Is this a valid argument you think? I can name quite a few 1v1 scenarios, where 1 ship could lock the other down, and it would be helpless without outside intervention. Does this meen we should start nerfing anything that can cause such an situation? You could spend 5bil on a ship and it could still be beaten by a decent curse (money shouldn't come into it). Also the only 1v1 sensarious I can think of atm where ship is totally helpless involve sensor damps or uber ECM ships with racials fighting against frigs.
kill0rbunny Alpha-Hirogen	Posted - 2007.06.11 14:54:00 - [27] Most valuable argument against nerf->Amarr sux, apart from the curse. Nerf teh curse=delete amarr. I pew therefore I am.
Rabbitual Ferrier	Posted - 2007.06.11 14:57:00 - [28] Counter to NoS would be to fit NoS. A Cap Battery, recharger, Cap relay, PDU and Cap Booster are also alternatives. The idea being to destroy them before you cap out. PDUs are quite nice as you get a several small boosts across the board. Successful ECM, Dampening renders NoS next to useless. Other options include AB/MWD (keep him out of range NOS are Power Grid hungry). NoS is not the all powerful killer. However Covert Ops crusiers. Well yes by their nature they are supposed to be very powerful, solo ships. Being able to get within NoS range without you realising it gives them a tasty advantage. Take the Lachese it can Sensor Dampen you and gets a range bonus to scramble. Done right it will pwn a single solo ship, because if the set up is right and the implimentation is right, you're seriously f**ked (can't shoot it, can't warp out). Thats what these ships are supposed to do, fly behind enemy lines and harry.
Cpt Cosmic	Posted - 2007.06.11 15:15:00 - [29] Originally by: tarin adur Recons can stay cloaked all day,then show up unexpectedly and gank someone while ratting, And nos is a module with no counter,that boosts you while destroying your enemy and feeding your ship with much needed cap. And no...Cap injector does not Directly counter nos,nor does it do anything to stop your inevitable demise...it only delays it. u complain that it is unfair that a curse can kill your while rats are shooting you? hows that overpowered? even a rifter can do that in some circumstances. Quote: as I activate sensorboosters, and my mate jumps in a huginn... and then the pilgrim uncloaks next to you :) funny cause even if you catch the curse with the huginn it will kill the cap in 2 cycles, no cap: no web and scrambler ^^
Atomic Atty Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2007.06.11 15:42:00 - [30] Edited by: Atomic Atty on 11/06/2007 15:43:12 The reason about Curses being overpowered is they get in with some of the most powerful mods in the game : NOS + TD NOS + SD Even with TD bonii, I'd say it would be more efficient with SD since TD doesn't do anything to missile users, but SD does nail every weapon user... The only thing you could do against a Curse would be FoF Missiles... unless there are more ships nearby :x Oh and don't tell "Get the f*ck out of Nos range" please, Curse pilots will most likely fit a MWD to counter that too. ---------- Laulau's Blog

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