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NOS and Recon Advantages: Why are they so strong now?

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Zeddy Minmatar Deep Space Colony	Posted - 2007.06.11 02:22:00 - [1] Edited by: Zeddy on 11/06/2007 02:29:15 I'm hearing alot of discussions on fitting up recon ships with massive NOS (read Curse) and having a huge advantage against battlecruisers and battleships even with significant drone outfitting. Why is there such a huge advantage to cloaking at this point within the game and the single power drain with very limited counters? This combination seems to be unbalancing this game significantly and at the cost of alot of ships that require much more extensive training (read command ships that will be nerfed and are NOS-immune). How long can this stand without having some major adjustment, i.e cloak detection anyone? and for god's sake SUBSYSTEM TARGETTING NOW. I haven't played a single major sci-fi space combat game that hasn't had subsystem targetting. I realize this is "planned" but didn't hear it in Revelations 2.
tarin adur Gallente Einherjar Rising	Posted - 2007.06.11 03:55:00 - [2] Recons can stay cloaked all day,then show up unexpectedly and gank someone while ratting, And nos is a module with no counter,that boosts you while destroying your enemy and feeding your ship with much needed cap. And no...Cap injector does not Directly counter nos,nor does it do anything to stop your inevitable demise...it only delays it.
Acinonyx Jubatus International Multi-Player Consortium Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.11 05:15:00 - [3] Curse/pilgrim get a bonus to nos/neut, so it's understandable to use them on those( along with the Cruor/Ashimmu/Bhaalgorn). Specially with their supply of drones and drone bonuses, other recons fitting nos are of no "real" benefit if they cna be setup to use their range for their ewar bonuses like they should. It really depends on the ship I guess, some can fit nos or fit turret/missiles, or anything else, just depends on what you're aiming to do really.
Disima Santet Minmatar Aziam	Posted - 2007.06.11 05:43:00 - [4] Originally by: tarin adur Recons can stay cloaked all day,then show up unexpectedly and gank someone while ratting, And nos is a module with no counter,that boosts you while destroying your enemy and feeding your ship with much needed cap. And no...Cap injector does not Directly counter nos,nor does it do anything to stop your inevitable demise...it only delays it. A lot of things don't have counter-modules. Take guns for example - your opponent arms with those and this leads to "your inevitable demise" ;)
Acinonyx Jubatus International Multi-Player Consortium Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.11 05:45:00 - [5] Originally by: Disima Santet Originally by: tarin adur Recons can stay cloaked all day,then show up unexpectedly and gank someone while ratting, And nos is a module with no counter,that boosts you while destroying your enemy and feeding your ship with much needed cap. And no...Cap injector does not Directly counter nos,nor does it do anything to stop your inevitable demise...it only delays it. A lot of things don't have counter-modules. Take guns for example - your opponent arms with those and this leads to "your inevitable demise" ;) Tracking disruptors, but that takes up a midslot.
Darwinia Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.11 06:15:00 - [6] Yes, tracking disruptors.. just one tech 1 will make all guns on the enemy ship only 50% effective. I would kill for a module that makes all NOS on an enemy ship 50% effective ------------------------ I don't believe in sigs.
Ralara Caldari Exanimo Inc Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.06.11 06:28:00 - [7] Originally by: Darwinia Yes, tracking disruptors.. just one tech 1 will make all guns on the enemy ship only 50% effective. I would kill for a module that makes all NOS on an enemy ship 50% effective ECM.
OldPueblo H.Y.D.R.A. GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.06.11 06:47:00 - [8] Originally by: Darwinia Yes, tracking disruptors.. just one tech 1 will make all guns on the enemy ship only 50% effective. I would kill for a module that makes all NOS on an enemy ship 50% effective Damps.
Setana Manoro Gallente Firefly Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.11 07:12:00 - [9] ECM drones or Damp drones. PS: Against a recon go with Damp drones, they have a HUGE sensor strength and they are tougher to jam than a Tier 3 BS. --- Adopt a goon today, goons need lub and support too. Do you want him out in the cold, starving ?
Jacob Holland Gallente 19th Star Logistics	Posted - 2007.06.11 07:16:00 - [10] Not against a recon. Not unless you're using a rack of them on a ship with bonuses (and if they're fitting one then that means using a Lachesis or an Arazu - another recon). -- Originally by: cordy Respect to IAC .Your one of the few people who truly deserve to own and live in the space you are in.
Morreia The Celestial Element	Posted - 2007.06.11 08:27:00 - [11] Originally by: Setana Manoro ECM drones or Damp drones. PS: Against a recon go with Damp drones, they have a HUGE sensor strength and they are tougher to jam than a Tier 3 BS. You do realise a curse can target out to somethign like 169km don't you?
Argen Tano	Posted - 2007.06.11 09:51:00 - [12] Originally by: Zeddy Edited by: Zeddy on 11/06/2007 02:29:15 I'm hearing alot of discussions on fitting up recon ships with massive NOS (read Curse) and having a huge advantage against battlecruisers and battleships even with significant drone outfitting. Why is there such a huge advantage to cloaking at this point within the game and the single power drain with very limited counters? This combination seems to be unbalancing this game significantly and at the cost of alot of ships that require much more extensive training (read command ships that will be nerfed and are NOS-immune). How long can this stand without having some major adjustment, i.e cloak detection anyone? and for god's sake SUBSYSTEM TARGETTING NOW. I haven't played a single major sci-fi space combat game that hasn't had subsystem targetting. I realize this is "planned" but didn't hear it in Revelations 2. Well, the curse can't cloak (not cov ops cloak anyways). So don't know what you're on about there. But anyways, if you've looked at the dev blog. You'd see that they're actualy making cloaked ships detectable by probes next patch. As for nos.. no counter? Well, with all the 0 cap weaponry in the game, like missiles, projectiles, drones and the popularity of passive tanks (sorry amarr, boned again), and the fact that heavy nos setups, sacrifices dps. I'd wouldn't exactly say that there's no counter for nos boats... And this is not even considdering EW.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.06.11 10:15:00 - [13] Originally by: Darwinia Yes, tracking disruptors.. just one tech 1 will make all guns on the enemy ship only 50% effective. They don't. They reduce the optimal by 50% - which does you a big fat nothing if you are still within range or if your target uses blasters or ACs which are not really hurt much by that (falloff isn't effected) and they reduce tracking, which also does not help you much if you cannot keep an high enough transversal to exploit that. For example, a pilgrim with 2 t2 TDs and the spec at 4 (-> reduction to 13% of the old values) can definately disable even a blasterthron enough to be able to orbit it while webbed by him with an AB fast enough to avoid hits. Do the same thing with something with medium sized blasters or ACs and you will melt since those ships have enough speed to negate your transversal. If TDs would simply reduce gun DPS by x they would be far stronger.
Xequecal	Posted - 2007.06.11 10:36:00 - [14] Tracking Disruptors are still useable, they're just not as good as damps. If dampeners get nerfed like everyone is calling for, it really won't affect the nanocurse at all. 2x TD + small injector (to run the MWD when your target caps out) still makes you unhittable by guns when you have MWD active. You're out of range of any potential NOS and you're going way too fast for missiles to significantly damage anyway.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.06.11 11:26:00 - [15] Originally by: Xequecal you're going way too fast for missiles to significantly damage anyway. Only with a faction+snake fit. You get around a 3 km/s orbit speed without faction or snakes which, while giving you a decent damage reduction, isn't enough to really "tank" missiles with the curse since it's tank is pretty much non-existant. And in either case, I was speaking more of the pilgrim which cannot use the same tactics as a curse.
sandamar Gallente COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.06.11 11:39:00 - [16] First of all, the curse doesn't have any cloacking device cpu reduction bonus. It is the pilgrim. And i think they're good. FFS is that so hard for people to see that there is a very good amarr ship in the game. Wait amarr got a good ship "OMG nerf that an amarr ship can be dangerous against me!!" Leave this ship alone please, and stop whining. We are the race that suffers the most against the nos ship, and we can finally have one drone nosing boat and you want it nerf come on. Leave with the facts that some amarr ship can be dangerous thanks.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.06.11 11:40:00 - [17] counter to nos = ecm!
Morreia The Celestial Element	Posted - 2007.06.11 11:44:00 - [18] Originally by: d026 counter to nos = ecm! Hard to do when your fighting a curse and damped down so hard that you can't lock to get an ECM on them. If CCP did to damps what they did to ECM (apart from maybe not quite the same), as in make them only propally useful on dedicated ships and I think problem solved.
Argen Tano	Posted - 2007.06.11 12:13:00 - [19] Edited by: Argen Tano on 11/06/2007 12:13:33 Yeah, let's nerf everything until theres no diversity left in the game at all. Spank and tank - none of them fancy city folk electromotonic warfare thingymadoos.
Morreia The Celestial Element	Posted - 2007.06.11 12:27:00 - [20] Originally by: Argen Tano Edited by: Argen Tano on 11/06/2007 12:13:33 Yeah, let's nerf everything until theres no diversity left in the game at all. Spank and tank - none of them fancy city folk electromotonic warfare thingymadoos. Fine, then what would you do when there is a snaked up curse running around you nosing you and dampening you? The curse will still be able to use EW just not damps. If the other EW aren't going to be nerfed in the same way that ECM was then put ECM back so thats its more usable on ships apart from BB, rook falcon and scorp.
Argen Tano	Posted - 2007.06.11 13:05:00 - [21] Edited by: Argen Tano on 11/06/2007 13:10:59 Edited by: Argen Tano on 11/06/2007 13:10:19 Edited by: Argen Tano on 11/06/2007 13:05:32 Originally by: Morreia Fine, then what would you do when there is a snaked up curse running around you nosing you and dampening you? The curse will still be able to use EW just not damps. If the other EW aren't going to be nerfed in the same way that ECM was then put ECM back so thats its more usable on ships apart from BB, rook falcon and scorp. Give him kudos for flying around with a setup that worth upwards to 1 billion isk... And then laugh my behind of, as I activate sensorboosters, and my mate jumps in a huginn...
Morreia The Celestial Element	Posted - 2007.06.11 14:20:00 - [22] Originally by: Argen Tano Edited by: Argen Tano on 11/06/2007 13:10:59 Edited by: Argen Tano on 11/06/2007 13:10:19 Edited by: Argen Tano on 11/06/2007 13:05:32 Originally by: Morreia Fine, then what would you do when there is a snaked up curse running around you nosing you and dampening you? The curse will still be able to use EW just not damps. If the other EW aren't going to be nerfed in the same way that ECM was then put ECM back so thats its more usable on ships apart from BB, rook falcon and scorp. Give him kudos for flying around with a setup that worth upwards to 1 billion isk... And then laugh my behind of, as I activate sensorboosters, and my mate jumps in a huginn... Any nanocurse who is stupid enough to carry on fighting when a huginn comes into system deserves to die, and you mean those sensor boosters that you just happen to have 2 of along with the 4 needed PvP modules? Also depending on what ship you fly you may be dead by the time the huginn enters system, I'm not sure what ships you usually fly but also even if you could lock the guy it will most likely not make any diference meaning your only defence is a mate in a huginn, which can easily be countered by another nanocurse jumping in... Ooh the joys.
Baudolino Gallente Zer0 ToLeRaNcE Terror In The System	Posted - 2007.06.11 14:24:00 - [23] Originally by: Morreia Fine, then what would you do when there is a snaked up curse running around you nosing you and dampening you? I`d kill his drones and let him drain my cap. When his cap is gone and he`S no longer able to MWD i`d cross my fingres and hope my drones actualy work and attack the agressor.. Depending on the circumstance i`d maybe activate my cap injector and try to get inside locking range and spend my cap before he drains it..
Argen Tano	Posted - 2007.06.11 14:29:00 - [24] well, that's the entire point isn't it... You're saying that damps should be nerfed, because you're having a hard time killing a curse with some 600-800mill worth of equipment/implants. AFTER he has allready locked you down. Is this a valid argument you think? I can name quite a few 1v1 scenarios, where 1 ship could lock the other down, and it would be helpless without outside intervention. Does this meen we should start nerfing anything that can cause such an situation?
Morreia The Celestial Element	Posted - 2007.06.11 14:30:00 - [25] Originally by: Baudolino Originally by: Morreia Fine, then what would you do when there is a snaked up curse running around you nosing you and dampening you? I`d kill his drones and let him drain my cap. When his cap is gone and he`S no longer able to MWD i`d cross my fingres and hope my drones actualy work and attack the agressor.. Depending on the circumstance i`d maybe activate my cap injector and try to get inside locking range and spend my cap before he drains it.. Unless you fit an smart bomb or sensor booster's trying to kill his drones may prove quite tricky, his MWD will carry on running and he'll prob kill your drones anyway... NEXT!!!
Morreia The Celestial Element	Posted - 2007.06.11 14:34:00 - [26] Originally by: Argen Tano well, that's the entire point isn't it... You're saying that damps should be nerfed, because you're having a hard time killing a curse with some 600-800mill worth of equipment/implants. AFTER he has allready locked you down. Is this a valid argument you think? I can name quite a few 1v1 scenarios, where 1 ship could lock the other down, and it would be helpless without outside intervention. Does this meen we should start nerfing anything that can cause such an situation? You could spend 5bil on a ship and it could still be beaten by a decent curse (money shouldn't come into it). Also the only 1v1 sensarious I can think of atm where ship is totally helpless involve sensor damps or uber ECM ships with racials fighting against frigs.
kill0rbunny Alpha-Hirogen	Posted - 2007.06.11 14:54:00 - [27] Most valuable argument against nerf->Amarr sux, apart from the curse. Nerf teh curse=delete amarr. I pew therefore I am.
Rabbitual Ferrier	Posted - 2007.06.11 14:57:00 - [28] Counter to NoS would be to fit NoS. A Cap Battery, recharger, Cap relay, PDU and Cap Booster are also alternatives. The idea being to destroy them before you cap out. PDUs are quite nice as you get a several small boosts across the board. Successful ECM, Dampening renders NoS next to useless. Other options include AB/MWD (keep him out of range NOS are Power Grid hungry). NoS is not the all powerful killer. However Covert Ops crusiers. Well yes by their nature they are supposed to be very powerful, solo ships. Being able to get within NoS range without you realising it gives them a tasty advantage. Take the Lachese it can Sensor Dampen you and gets a range bonus to scramble. Done right it will pwn a single solo ship, because if the set up is right and the implimentation is right, you're seriously f**ked (can't shoot it, can't warp out). Thats what these ships are supposed to do, fly behind enemy lines and harry.
Cpt Cosmic	Posted - 2007.06.11 15:15:00 - [29] Originally by: tarin adur Recons can stay cloaked all day,then show up unexpectedly and gank someone while ratting, And nos is a module with no counter,that boosts you while destroying your enemy and feeding your ship with much needed cap. And no...Cap injector does not Directly counter nos,nor does it do anything to stop your inevitable demise...it only delays it. u complain that it is unfair that a curse can kill your while rats are shooting you? hows that overpowered? even a rifter can do that in some circumstances. Quote: as I activate sensorboosters, and my mate jumps in a huginn... and then the pilgrim uncloaks next to you :) funny cause even if you catch the curse with the huginn it will kill the cap in 2 cycles, no cap: no web and scrambler ^^
Atomic Atty Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2007.06.11 15:42:00 - [30] Edited by: Atomic Atty on 11/06/2007 15:43:12 The reason about Curses being overpowered is they get in with some of the most powerful mods in the game : NOS + TD NOS + SD Even with TD bonii, I'd say it would be more efficient with SD since TD doesn't do anything to missile users, but SD does nail every weapon user... The only thing you could do against a Curse would be FoF Missiles... unless there are more ships nearby :x Oh and don't tell "Get the f*ck out of Nos range" please, Curse pilots will most likely fit a MWD to counter that too. ---------- Laulau's Blog
Dikat	Posted - 2007.06.11 16:14:00 - [31] Originally by: Cpt Cosmic Originally by: tarin adur Recons can stay cloaked all day,then show up unexpectedly and gank someone while ratting, And nos is a module with no counter,that boosts you while destroying your enemy and feeding your ship with much needed cap. And no...Cap injector does not Directly counter nos,nor does it do anything to stop your inevitable demise...it only delays it. u complain that it is unfair that a curse can kill your while rats are shooting you? hows that overpowered? even a rifter can do that in some circumstances. Quote: as I activate sensorboosters, and my mate jumps in a huginn... and then the pilgrim uncloaks next to you :) funny cause even if you catch the curse with the huginn it will kill the cap in 2 cycles, no cap: no web and scrambler ^^ Huginn can web at a much farther range than curse can NOS. Whoever controls range would win but huginn would also be outside warp disruption range and so the curse flies away. The anti-curse is the scorpion (fof missiles) and the domi (with sensor boosters, drones and heavy nos) or even the drake (fof missiles - passive tank). Also drones are all (except for Sentries) short range so smoke the curse drones with your guns, missiles or drones and then he has no weapons. He will either leave (a draw) or he will get trapped and die. Leave the curse alone. It's a fantastic ship but so what? The raven is potentially overpowered in the right hands, same with the Scorpion (especially the scorpion). The domi is a monster. The typhoon is crazy. An arazu can lock down almost anything....every ship has the potential to be uber and there is always a counter.
Lord DarkStar Gallente Mobile Alcohol Processing Units	Posted - 2007.06.11 17:44:00 - [32] Well lets see here, where do we start? I myself fly an arazu,that ship is godly in 1 vs 1 if i get first lock,it can dampen someone to practicly nothing and then warp disrupt over 40km,does that mean its over powered? Of course not ... that ship has no tankablilty or dps whatsoever,in 1 vs 1 it can take out cruisers by itself ,but battleships and battlecruisers it wont be able to do anything with.If another ship jumps in the arazu is dead if it stays around simple ... also would happen to be part of the title of the game,massive online multiplayer game aka the MULTIPLAYER part. So the curse can nos 1 target down to nothing ... bring in 2 other ships and it will eather die or retreat,not even most battleships can tank 3 other battleships pounding on it ( there are cases wher they can tank more punishment,a video of a vindi comes to mind where it was fighting around 10 ships but it had backup too). Something that is really getting annoying is everyone screaming nerf this nerf that,well if you keep screaming that then sometime ccp is going to have nerfed the entire game so you are just sitting there shooting the exact same weapon against the exact same ship and the only reason 1 person wins is because they clicked the button .5 seconds sooner ... is that what u really want to happen? DO you want ecm sensor damps tracking disrupts all to be nerfed to uselessness on any ship even the ones with bonuses? Because honestly thats what its starting to seem,everyone screaming nerf this thing nerf that its way to overpowered.I do agree that nos can be overpowered and personally i think that it woulda bin a little bit better if ccp never included nos in the game to begin with simply because having ships slug it out back and forth woulda bin more "navy/military like" but nos gives everyone some options in regaurd to combat.I myself fly a nos ship,my nos domi is good for tank and cap because of that nos,but dps even with ogre 2s and all relevant skills to level 4/5 it still isnt that great against a well tanked battleship. Nos itself has a massive fitting requirement for heavy nos and no way to reduce it like guns/missles can. All in all,nos should be changed against small ships such as a nos domi vs an inty shouldnt drain it out in half a second but battleship vs battleship its fine. We of the Unicorn clan are the best horsemen in the land,our horses are our lives and brothers,we fight as one,we live as one,we die as one.
Morreia The Celestial Element	Posted - 2007.06.11 17:54:00 - [33] The only problem I see is that at the monet the 2 most powerful modules in game (minus guns I suppose before someone tries to be smart) are NOS and damps. The most powerful attribute to have on your ship is speed (can dictate range and stop people hitting you). Now the curse can use NOS very well, damps just as well as any other ship (to great effect) and can go very fast... stop it being able to do one of the above and it will be fine IMO.
Lord DarkStar Gallente Mobile Alcohol Processing Units	Posted - 2007.06.11 18:05:00 - [34] If this is all about 1 ship,the curse,then has anyone ever considered instead of nerfing an entire mod and almost any other ship in the game,why dont you put on the curse something like 50% reduction in sensor damp effectiveness or soemthing like that,making it only 50% usefull. We of the Unicorn clan are the best horsemen in the land,our horses are our lives and brothers,we fight as one,we live as one,we die as one.
jilahed	Posted - 2007.06.11 19:28:00 - [35] Originally by: Lord DarkStar If this is all about 1 ship,the curse,then has anyone ever considered instead of nerfing an entire mod and almost any other ship in the game,why dont you put on the curse something like 50% reduction in sensor damp effectiveness or soemthing like that,making it only 50% usefull. Maybe because its an ewar boat? The idea that any ship ingame can use sensor damps better than a specialized ewar ship is laughable. They've already done this to ECM, only all ships were affected. Now nearly nobody fits ECM (bar the bursts) on recons other than rook/falcon. In the end recons are no more ewar specialized ships but SD, TD, TP or ECM boats. Great, isn't it? Btw. if you reduce effectiveness of damps on curse by 50% it would just make no sense anymore to fit damps at all. So whats the point? The truth is curse is more powerful solo. But look at small or larger gangs. I'd chose a huggin/lachesis over curse anyday if i had to. In a larger gang there are several bs with heavy nos, curse is not very special anymore suddenly.
Morreia The Celestial Element	Posted - 2007.06.11 19:55:00 - [36] If their not going to narrow down the ships that can effectivly use the other EW than ECM need to be put back so that all ships can use it to some reasonable effect.
Cpt Cosmic	Posted - 2007.06.11 20:14:00 - [37] Edited by: Cpt Cosmic on 11/06/2007 20:13:13 Quote: The anti-curse is the scorpion (fof missiles) and the domi (with sensor boosters, drones and heavy nos) or even the drake (fof missiles - passive tank). Also drones are all (except for Sentries) short range so smoke the curse drones with your guns, missiles or drones and then he has no weapons. He will either leave (a draw) or he will get trapped and die. nice in theory, except: that the even precision missiles will do 15% dmg due to the nano curses' speed. then all drones except lights will be too slow to reach the curse and the normal orbit velocity will be too slow making the drones mwd all the time and miss due to own speed curse will outnos the dominix giving enough cap for mwd due to 3 damps the locking time on the curses' drones will be rly high, the curse will kill your drones much faster.
NIkis Minmatar W33D Corp. O X I D E	Posted - 2007.06.11 20:31:00 - [38] Edited by: NIkis on 11/06/2007 20:30:12 NOS is not overpowered (I repeat.. NOT overpowered). It has a lot of counters, especially in medium-large gangs. and no .. I don't fly amarr ships (or train for them) as a matter of principle And recons ? The cloak whine again ? As someone else said above, curse can't fit cov ops cloak. End.

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