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Peace Within
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Posted - 2007.06.13 21:14:00 -
[1]
I am rather new to EVE, but i have read alot of Stephen Hawking and i know alot about physics and I realized that during warp my frigate maxed out at 5.9 A/U per second, which i can assure you is faster than the speed of light. So if the theory of relativity is true, shouldn't i arrive at my destination before i left in the first place? Part of the relativity is that travelling faster than the speed of light is impossible, but if accomplished the user would travel faster than the speed of time causing him to not age, and make his trip instantaneous. I do notice that the server time still progresses while i am in warp. Now i know if everyone had their own independent times this game would be really challenging and complicated but here would be an example of a realistic warp travel.
Miner A has no ore when he starts mining. He warps to the asteroid, mines the ore, and warps back. Both warps would send him back in time, causing him to get ore and return to the station before he even left to get ore. which means he would have had unlimited ore in the first place, meaning he would have no reason to go mining in the first place >.>
Just something i was thinking about while playing eve today, let me know what you guys think.
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Wylker
Caldari
Pyrrhus Sicarii
Aftermath Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.13 21:15:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Peace Within
Just something i was thinking about while playing eve today, let me know what you guys think.
Stop thinking, its a game :P
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Peace Within
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Posted - 2007.06.13 21:16:00 -
[3]
Hah, I know, but wouldn't it be interesting?
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Samuel Beckett
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Posted - 2007.06.13 21:18:00 -
[4]
I doubt Time Travel in EvE would be a good idea. 1 Great Northern War is enough. 
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Vana Gank
Gallente
Nosferatu Security Foundation
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Posted - 2007.06.13 21:19:00 -
[5]
And as he returns to the station - he exits warp without the ore, and wonder what the hell is he there because he can't remember anything.
Now that would be annoying wouldnt it? :p
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Please adjust the map, please.
Im not clever enough to figure out which way to fly. |
Neon Ghost
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Posted - 2007.06.13 21:20:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Peace Within
So if the theory of relativity is true, shouldn't i arrive at my destination before i left in the first place?
You do, but this is compensated for by lag (I knew it had to be good for something).
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Roy Batty68
Caldari
Immortal Dead
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Posted - 2007.06.13 21:21:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Peace Within
Now i know if everyone had their own independent times this game would be really challenging and complicated but here would be an example of a realistic warp travel.
Dude... your watch.
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WE'RE SORRY, SOMETHING HAPPENED |
Peace Within
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Posted - 2007.06.13 21:23:00 -
[8]
im saying if everyone had their own server time that was altered by the amount of warps they do
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Wylker
Caldari
Pyrrhus Sicarii
Aftermath Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.13 21:27:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Wylker on 13/06/2007 21:26:21
If you want a realistic answer, the fact that people ever mention "time travel" shows an ignorance of the theories of relativistic physics. In relativistic terms, time does not exist. What we refer to as time is simply our way of organizing events into an order that our brains can deal with. Time has no mass, no particles, no anything.
The concept of travelling through this nothing makes physicists giggle all the time, because of human fascination with the concept. Think of it as this: if I travel from east to west in the world, and manage to circle the globe in .00001 seconds, will I stumble across myself getting ready to leave because i've crossed 24 time zones? No, of course not. Time is simply a human explanation for distance and movement. Please remember that relativistic physics do not allow for travel faster than C, therefore most of your argument stops making sense. In general science fiction, it is assumed that FTL travel is accomplished through some other means than traditional accelleration.
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Hyldabrand
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Posted - 2007.06.13 21:27:00 -
[10]
wow, slow general discussion day huh?
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iudex
Caldari
Halliburton Inc.
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Posted - 2007.06.13 21:28:00 -
[11]
"travelling faster than the speed of light is impossible" has been proven wrong around 2 years ago. However, Einstein made this statement about waves, not particles, so his statement remains true. Scientist were able to accelerate photons (=particles) 2-3 times faster than light through "tunneling". Statements were made that almost instantaneous speed is possible (at the expense of signal strenght / energy loss) ... but currently thats only possible with photons, not with particles with mass, like electrons or even whole atoms.
But this mining thingy would never work out anyways, as it violates against the law of causality: the mining is "condicio sine qua non" for having the ore in your cargo, so even if the order in time is not linear, for every pice of ore there must be a time of mining accordingly, timetravel possible or not.
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Roy Batty68
Caldari
Immortal Dead
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Posted - 2007.06.13 21:29:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Peace Within
im saying if everyone had their own server time that was altered by the amount of warps they do
Stop! Just stop! People's heads are gonna explode. Say something calming now like, "h4x sploits" or something normal.
Anyway, how the heck could people meet up?
p1> Yo Roy, you still owe me 5mil isk. Meet me at CN station 5-4
p2> I did that yesterday, you never showed up.
p1> what?
p1> Oh right... can you like, warp backwards for a bit and meet me there?
p2> der.. no. It doesn't work like that. Even if I could warp backwards I'd still be going faster than the speed of light and you'd have to meet me last saturday
p2> which btw was before you lent me the money... so, yeah. let's do that! ;)
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WE'RE SORRY, SOMETHING HAPPENED |
Red Crown
Kudzu Collective
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Posted - 2007.06.13 21:33:00 -
[13]
As explained in star trek, and Eve's concept is similar IIRC, you cannot go faster than light, but space can do whatever the heck it wants. I think creating a bubble of expanding space in front and contracting in back gives speed so long as you can support the field and energy necessary to make it happen. It might be the other way around so don't take my word for it.
Eve creates a warp tunnel, which , I would assume is a tube of nothing ness which you can go as fast as you want through.
-
"The Mains Created the alts
They rebelled
They look...and feel...human
Some are programmed to think they are human
There are many alts.
And they have a plan."
- Forumstar Galactica |
Peace Within
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Posted - 2007.06.13 21:34:00 -
[14]
lol well i guess that makes more sense, i do like the idea of not being able to meet up with someone though :P
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Hait
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Posted - 2007.06.13 21:38:00 -
[15]
I love this!
Originally by: Peace Within
if accomplished the user would travel faster than the speed of time ....
And I thought breaking the speed of light was a tough cookie!
You may well have read Hawking, unfortunately (as demonstrated), that does not equate to knowledge.
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.06.13 21:38:00 -
[16]
Well if we extend the OP's ideas then Tachyon Lasers should hit their target before they are fired.
That would make an excellent buff for Amarr ships...think I'll mail it to the Devs.
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JR Cash
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Posted - 2007.06.13 21:39:00 -
[17]
I think I'll be warping back to before I opened this thread.
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coldplasma
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2007.06.13 21:43:00 -
[18]
Forget time travel, this game needs more of Newtons basic mechanical laws.
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Tkar vonBiggendorf
Gallente
MAG black strategic colition of nations
Hell Hounds
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Posted - 2007.06.13 21:44:00 -
[19]
Don't you people know that the creation of the warp bubble negates the relativistic effects of FTL travel? :P
Besides, if you did arrive before you left, everyone would still be confused about whether they left the station on EVE time and arrived on Eastern time, or whether or not the trip would take an extra hour due to daylight savings....
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Beef Hardslab
The 5 Amigo's LLC.
NxT LeveL
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Posted - 2007.06.13 21:44:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Neon Ghost
Originally by: Peace Within
So if the theory of relativity is true, shouldn't i arrive at my destination before i left in the first place?
You do, but this is compensated for by lag (I knew it had to be good for something).
Winner
Why there should be a breathalyzer to login to Eve:
Originally by: Alliaanna Dalaii
Podding my own alt in a gatecamp while drunk, he was carrying a hauler full of tech II goods, Oops.
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Ixianus
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Posted - 2007.06.13 21:45:00 -
[21]
We move through time at the speed of time, which translates to the speed of light in directional terms. And as such as you approach the speed of light, as in turning during acceleration energy is diverted from movement through time to movement through space.
Time travel I would imagine is possible, but as it is in Eve, were not really traveling faster than light as I understand it. Space is just being bent around to allow what appears to be faster than light travel, but its really sub light travel over a vastly stretched area of space.
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Xarax
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.06.13 21:54:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Xarax on 13/06/2007 21:53:11
When you warp, you are not traveling faster than the speed of light. You are bending, or ôwarpingö space-time around your ship. While inside the warp bubble, your ship travels from point A to point B at sub-light speeds, but the distance between the 2 points is considerably shorter than if you were traveling thru normal space-time. This is because you are traveling through space-time that has been warped. When you exit your warp bubble, space-time around your ship returns to normal. At no point have you actually traveled faster than the speed of light relative to the space immediately outside your ship.
So basically, traveling at sub-light speeds, whilst inside a warp bubble, gets you from point A to point B faster than a beam of light outside of the warp bubble can travel. Consequently, any light caught inside the warp bubble with you should be visible at your destination milliseconds before your ship is. This is why many sci-fi shows/movies have ships that are exiting warp preceded by a flash of light.
Move along, there is noting more to see here.
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2007.06.13 21:54:00 -
[23]
A thread about relativistic physics? Totally IBDS \o/
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Kraven Kor
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2007.06.13 22:00:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Kraven Kor on 13/06/2007 21:59:26
Am I IBDS? Edit: I AM! Yay for me.
Anywho, the Warp Speed is explained by the "Warp Tunnel" - not in much a different way than the Warp Drives of Star Trek.
The warp tunnel actually bends space -- you are not flying faster than the speed of light, you are just taking a relativistic short-cut. The 5.9 AU/s speed would be your speed "to the observer."
They actually do make some (lame) attempts at explaining the science of EVE, but, ultimately, it's a fracking game ;)
-----
You're not what you are, you're just what you do!
So it ends with their butts and it starts with your shoe! - Awesome Car Fun Maker |
Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.06.13 22:05:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Ixianus
Time travel I would imagine is possible, but as it is in Eve, were not really traveling faster than light as I understand it. Space is just being bent around to allow what appears to be faster than light travel, but its really sub light travel over a vastly stretched area of space.
I forget the physicist's name but he got so fed up with people asking him about time travel he decided once and for all to sit down and prove it is nonsense. Much to his surprise he found that there is nothing in the math of relativity (or anything else for that matter) that prohibits time travel. There have been a number of possible solutions put forward for a real time travel machine but the requirements to do so are so mind bogglingly difficult as to be a practical impossibility.
FWIW I argued with a physicist once about "warp drive" or using a "dimension door" (think like walking through a door and ending up light years away) would not get you into time travel. He insisted that if you beat a photon of light from Point A to Point B, no matter how you do it, you can create a temporal paradox.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.06.13 22:08:00 -
[26]
Warp Drive.
Equivalent "no warp" speed.
Enough said.
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New char creation guide | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
Vladimir Ilych
Gradient
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Posted - 2007.06.13 22:13:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Xarax
Edited by: Xarax on 13/06/2007 21:53:11
When you warp, you are not traveling faster than the speed of light. You are bending, or ôwarpingö space-time around your ship. While inside the warp bubble, your ship travels from point A to point B at sub-light speeds, but the distance between the 2 points is considerably shorter than if you were traveling thru normal space-time. This is because you are traveling through space-time that has been warped. When you exit your warp bubble, space-time around your ship returns to normal. At no point have you actually traveled faster than the speed of light relative to the space immediately outside your ship.
So basically, traveling at sub-light speeds, whilst inside a warp bubble, gets you from point A to point B faster than a beam of light outside of the warp bubble can travel. Consequently, any light caught inside the warp bubble with you should be visible at your destination milliseconds before your ship is. This is why many sci-fi shows/movies have ships that are exiting warp preceded by a flash of light.
Move along, there is noting more to see here.
All fine but the Sun with all its mass only bends space time by a tiny amount. To warp / bend space time as you state would take amount of energy. As i understand it. Could be wrong of course. Would not be the first time.
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Janu Hull
Caldari
Order of Z Industries
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Posted - 2007.06.13 22:17:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Peace Within
I am rather new to EVE, but i have read alot of Stephen Hawking and i know alot about physics and I realized that during warp my frigate maxed out at 5.9 A/U per second, which i can assure you is faster than the speed of light. So if the theory of relativity is true, shouldn't i arrive at my destination before i left in the first place? Part of the relativity is that travelling faster than the speed of light is impossible, but if accomplished the user would travel faster than the speed of time causing him to not age, and make his trip instantaneous. I do notice that the server time still progresses while i am in warp. Now i know if everyone had their own independent times this game would be really challenging and complicated but here would be an example of a realistic warp travel.
Miner A has no ore when he starts mining. He warps to the asteroid, mines the ore, and warps back. Both warps would send him back in time, causing him to get ore and return to the station before he even left to get ore. which means he would have had unlimited ore in the first place, meaning he would have no reason to go mining in the first place >.>
Just something i was thinking about while playing eve today, let me know what you guys think.
No. You arrive faster than the photons that reflected off your ship arrive, but you are not two places at once. Your absolute position in time has not changed.
While in warp, you experience time at an altered rate, but you are still moving one instant forward, just like everyone else. Your perception of time flow is simply altered with respect to the non-accelerated frame of reference.
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Dark Shikari
Caldari
Imperium Technologies
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.06.13 22:18:00 -
[29]
The entire point of warp drive is to travel faster than light globally while traveling very slow locally, allowing FTL travel (or very fast travel in general) without relativistic effects.
23 Member
EVE Video makers: save EVE-files bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder! |
Namingway
Important Yet Underrated Video Game Characters
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Posted - 2007.06.13 22:27:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Red Crown
As explained in star trek, and Eve's concept is similar IIRC, you cannot go faster than light, but space can do whatever the heck it wants. I think creating a bubble of expanding space in front and contracting in back gives speed so long as you can support the field and energy necessary to make it happen. It might be the other way around so don't take my word for it.
Eve creates a warp tunnel, which , I would assume is a tube of nothing ness which you can go as fast as you want through.
TEH SPACETRAVELZ R A SERIEZ OF TUBEZ!
Originally by: CCP kieron
If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs.
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Vladimir Ilych
Gradient
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Posted - 2007.06.13 22:48:00 -
[31]
nice to have a thread about something interesting instead of more whining / trolling / flaming
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Xen Gin
The Dragoons
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Posted - 2007.06.13 22:52:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Samuel Beckett
I doubt Time Travel in EvE would be a good idea. 1 Great Northern War is enough.
Great Northern Temporal Time War is enough!!!
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Domitianvs
Amarr
Virginia Mining Institute
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Posted - 2007.06.14 01:17:00 -
[33]
Ok, so if I warp back in time to one month ago will CCP refund my money from last month? 
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Wendat Huron
Lupus Industries
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Posted - 2007.06.14 01:21:00 -
[34]
Deadspace pockets isn't in their own timezone?
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Ominus Decre
The Older Gamers
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.06.14 01:22:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Peace Within
i have read alot of Stephen Hawking and i know alot about physics
If what you say is true you'd know we are ALWAYS "time traveling", forward. 
Also, if you know "alot" about physics why don't you know anything about world lines?
Perversion:  |
Chelone
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Posted - 2007.06.14 01:32:00 -
[36]
Time doesn't exist? Time is an integral part of the equations and workings of physics. Does SPACE not really exist either? Wait, we can warp space with gravity. Wait, it is often called spacetime.  Just because something doesn't have a known, assigned particle (i.e. space or time) doesn't mean it doesn't "exist."
When you look at the Andromeda Galaxy, your eye is intercepting photons that left that galaxy 2.5 million years ago (neat, eh?) That doesn't mean "it is 2.5 million years ago" in the Andromeda Galaxy. It is "right now" in the Andromeda Galaxy, and it is "right now" here. If something (say a tachyon, or warping ship, or "subspace communications") traveled faster than those photons, and got here in say, 50 years, that doesn't mean those things are "time travelling." If someone would care to bust out the physics to explain why this is not the case, feel free to do so.
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Kylar Renpurs
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Posted - 2007.06.14 01:41:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 14/06/2007 01:41:40
Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 14/06/2007 01:41:05
Here you go,,,
Improve Market Competition! |
SiJira
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Posted - 2007.06.14 02:12:00 -
[38]
im not sure if people realize this but time passes no matter how fast you travel - the thing is if you look behind you and you are travelling faster than the speed of light and then stop then the stuff that you saw earlier you could see again therefore relatively no time has passed but really it has ...
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_sig below_
the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore
miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some |
Cowboy Nuggets
Minmatar
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2007.06.14 03:33:00 -
[39]
This thread makes my brain hurt.
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R3dSh1ft
Dark Knights of Deneb
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.06.14 04:20:00 -
[40]
Just think of time like a tube sock. When you move backwards, nothing changes because a tube sock doesnt have a memory, so even if you *did* travel backwards in time, this would just mean you get there faster, not before you arrived (that would be impossible) you get me?
_________________________________________________________
DKOD - an awesome synchronised killing machine |
Madphly
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Posted - 2007.06.14 04:26:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Madphly on 14/06/2007 04:27:24
I would think time travel would get blurry. I think if you beat certain light particles from rendering the movement to your eye - you'd definately "see" the past. In that sense, if you consider such as time travel, I'd have to disagree. I think that is an illusion to the human eye because our eye operates on the premise of light. I think physics could prove that actual objects cannot travel in time, only illusions or iterations of these objects from light which is travelling slower.
edit: just reading this I noticed your name - Redshift. I'm surprised no-one has said anything about that...
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Lal QelThyr
Darkness Inc.
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Posted - 2007.06.14 04:35:00 -
[42]
I have the answer to why it doesnt happen
Wizards made it so. The answer to everything.
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Tramp Oline
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Posted - 2007.06.14 04:40:00 -
[43]
Not impossible. I experience this type of time travel all the time in Eve. I'll warp to a gate or a station and I warp so fast that I get there before I actually arrive. Once I stop traveling my ship will actually fly backwards in time and catch up with my with correct timeline and I will arrive at the station a 2nd time.
Originally by: R3dSh1ft
you get there faster, not before you arrived (that would be impossible)
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Bryg Philomena
Green Lantern Corps
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Posted - 2007.06.14 06:43:00 -
[44]
how come star trek and subspace comes to mind?
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
Am I reading this correctly? You claim you have a bug that undresses female avatars???
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Tulor
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.06.14 07:02:00 -
[45]
No offense, but there's a lot of hilarious lack of understanding of physics going on here. To the person who said time doesn't exist and time is just our perception, wrong! Time is not a perception. Time is a physical attribute of the universe. Everything moves forward in time, nothing can move backwards. It's that simple. The paradoxes created through time travel pretty much demonstrate how travelling backwards in time is just not ever going to happen.
Now, going foward in time is very easy. I'm doing it right now!
Based on some of the psuedo science I just read I expect someone to start going on about "ether" or something just as ridiculous.
Yarrr! |
Phoebus Athenian
Gallente
KIA Corp
KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.14 07:17:00 -
[46]
There is already 'time' travel, how do you think we get from one corner of the universe to the other? ;)
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Hyperforce99
Gallente
The Scope
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Posted - 2007.06.14 07:32:00 -
[47]
Did any of you guys ever read the scientific articles in the background section of this site:
FTL speeds are reached by creating a total vacume around the ship (the warp bubble) where every bit of energy is being blasted out of the field. This causes light to travel faster than it normally does, also all friction is removed so the ship can travel faster than the speed of light in normal space.
Quote:
So what is the elusive answer to FTL travel? It was found through advanced research in the field of quantum electrodynamics. By creating depleted vacuum, that is, vacuum as found in space but completely stripped of all energy, and then expanding this depleted vacuum to envelop a ship, the ship is capable of moving faster than light through this bubble of depleted vacuum. A depleted vacuum bubble is more than frictionless û it is so anti-friction that things (including light) actually move faster in it than they would in complete vacuum.
Gates and jumpdrives work on the with wormholes
and finally FTL communication is done by using the following method:
Quote:
The result of that rush is the familiar Fluid router, which forms the building block of universal communication as we know it today. Ignoring the mathematical intricacies, the architecture of these routers is deceivingly simple. The first step of their manufacturing is the creation of the entangled quantum states. This is done by using superfluid 4-Helium, where essentially all the Helium atoms are entangled in a single quantum state due to Bose condensation. A droplet of such liquid 4-Helium is then carefully separated in two. From this point, the two droplets, and more specifically the Helium atoms in the droplets are intrinsically tangled. Each droplet is then placed in separate router box, that contain necessary mechanism to encode and decode bytestream into quantum state measurements performed on the atoms of the droplet. From that point on, these two routers are linked together, regardless of their separation. Thus a spaceship will usually buy a router pair from a network provider. One box will be placed in the spaceship, while the other one kept in the network providerÆs backbone, that will have connections to other routers, thus effectively forming a decentralized network, where messages can be routed across many routers and many providers. This architecture is similarly to the ancient Internet.
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Lal QelThyr
Darkness Inc.
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Posted - 2007.06.14 07:33:00 -
[48]
Ether is the general name for a class of chemical compounds which contain an ether groupùan oxygen atom connected to two (substituted) alkyl or aryl groupsùof general formula RûOûR'.[1] A typical example is the solvent and anesthetic diethyl ether, commonly referred to simply as "ether"
There ya go. Ether
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Lady Trade
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Posted - 2007.06.14 07:46:00 -
[49]
aside from the small fact that it would require infinite amounts of energy to increase the verlocity of any given object (that has mass, ie. a ship) to the speed of light (because while approching the threshold the mass of the ship will continue to increase, meaning you would take always more fuel to increase the speed another little bit - now the problem is, that the fuel also has mass which will begin to increase so in the end you would require infinite amounts of fuel just to be able to increase the velocity of the fuel required to power the ship).
but yes, basicly you would arive at your destination before you left. the other problem would be, that as soon as you pass the threshold of the speed of light, for anyone watching you from outside your ship, you would seem to have arived at the destionation before having left and on the other hand if you looked out the window (the doppler-effect not withstanding) the world around you would progress at infinite speeds. so if you warped from jita 4-4 to a gate then you would come out of warp only to notice that the universe has progressed an infinite amount of time since you warped... so better say bye to your friends and family before pressing that warp button. ;)
i can only hope the warp-field-specialists found some nice sollution to this 
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