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The Economist	Posted - 2007.06.14 22:52:00 - [1] "Siege Mode now forces Dreadnoughts to have only 2 max locked targets at any given time." - from rev 2 patch notes. In a perfect world with no lag and no bugs I could see the logic behind this. As it is, any significant combat involving capitals is generally accompanied by massive lag. As such this change is fairly ludicrous and will cause us all massive headaches.....PLEASE think carefully about this change....and if you already have, have another think, realise I'm right and then scrap it as a truly terrible idea, to be shelved until such time as mid to large scale combat is not associated with nervous breakdown-inducing lag. Maybe I'm over-reacting, however I've flown a dread since they came in game, been in countless pos sieges, cap battles etc, and this change really has me worried. Suggested fix: Simple solution to achieve the desired result without causing too many lag-induced nervous breakdowns; only limit the amount of starbase structures lockable by a dread in siege to two. Ability to lock non-POS targets should be unaffected. Please consider this; or at least assuage mine, and others', fears by explaining exactly why this is good and why it won't be turned into a source of migraines and moaning for the next god knows how long. Thank you.
Xpod85	Posted - 2007.06.14 23:27:00 - [2] Yeah, the economist has right! I've been playing little on SiSi with the rev 2. And i find the max2targets thingy a headache! With just some minor lag (talking like 19fps) i might have some problems correcting my targets when one falls. Of course, on large or stationary this wouldn't be such a problem. But when fighting battleships, this is a paiiin.
Elliott Manchild omen.	Posted - 2007.06.15 00:10:00 - [3] Yeah also it sucks if you lock the wrong target and then when that locks will cancel your other locking targets =[. Doesn't work to well with now days lag Your sig is too big, maximum size is 24000 bytes. Email us at [email protected] if you have any questions. - Devil Leave me be you evil mods =[
DubanFP Caldari Four Rings D-L	Posted - 2007.06.15 00:25:00 - [4] Agreed, with lag it's pointless. Besides what does this change that needed to be changed anyways? ____________ Dark Shikari> If at first you don't succeed, whine about t20.
Blacklight Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.15 00:28:00 - [5] An entirely ridiculous and unnecessary change to be sure. Blog
Martin Mckenna D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.06.15 01:32:00 - [6] Man thats going to screw alot of dread pilots.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.15 02:56:00 - [7] add a skill to boost siege targets! Real turtles tank armor. Real men fly Pink. Nerfageddon!
MotherMoon	Posted - 2007.06.15 02:58:00 - [8] Originally by: Xpod85 Yeah, the economist has right! I've been playing little on SiSi with the rev 2. And i find the max2targets thingy a headache! With just some minor lag (talking like 19fps) i might have some problems correcting my targets when one falls. Of course, on large or stationary this wouldn't be such a problem. But when fighting battleships, this is a paiiin. you fight battleships in siege mode?
MotherMoon	Posted - 2007.06.15 03:00:00 - [9] Originally by: DubanFP Agreed, with lag it's pointless. Besides what does this change that needed to be changed anyways? this fixes the OWN all POS guns now that they are outside shields it a nerf to the ability to kill POS guns it was very needed
Sarah McTeef	Posted - 2007.06.15 03:23:00 - [10] Originally by: The Economist As such this change is fairly ludicrous and will cause us all massive headaches.....PLEASE think carefully about this change....and if you already have, have another think, realise I'm right and then scrap it as a truly terrible idea, to be shelved until such time as mid to large scale combat is not associated with nervous breakdown-inducing lag. Maybe I'm over-reacting, however I've flown a dread since they came in game, been in countless pos sieges, cap battles etc, and this change really has me worried. Yep over reacting. It couldn't possibly be they are changing it, nerfing it as it were, because and try to follow along for a second; Perhaps just maybe they wanted it to be harder? Naw that'd be too simple, it's far better to complain than try and adapt to changes.
Kuseka Adama Gallente WOLFPACK DELTA	Posted - 2007.06.15 04:02:00 - [11] Originally by: Mothermoon this fixes the OWN all POS guns now that they are outside shields it a nerf to the ability to kill POS guns it was very needed Originally by: Sarah McTeef Originally by: The Economist As such this change is fairly ludicrous and will cause us all massive headaches.....PLEASE think carefully about this change....and if you already have, have another think, realise I'm right and then scrap it as a truly terrible idea, to be shelved until such time as mid to large scale combat is not associated with nervous breakdown-inducing lag. Maybe I'm over-reacting, however I've flown a dread since they came in game, been in countless pos sieges, cap battles etc, and this change really has me worried. Yep over reacting. It couldn't possibly be they are changing it, nerfing it as it were, because and try to follow along for a second; Perhaps just maybe they wanted it to be harder? Naw that'd be too simple, it's far better to complain than try and adapt to changes. This is a valid point. However as a potential moros pilot i see no reason to even consider moving to a dread now. Give me an EOS. A dread's ability to defend itself has been drastically weakened as it needs multiple locks to use its other defensive capabilites. Siege mode yes makes your tank near unbreakable and amplifies your damage. But if its a real friggin POS war on you need to be able to do more than just blow up buildings. Adaptation is one thing this is something else. Even with the mighty moros as badass as it is. With only two locks you wont be able to control your drones. Once deployed. Making them useless as long as you are in siege mode. While there are significant reasons for it. There are also reasons this has to be looked at unless they WANT all capital ships to be quite frankly VERY VERY easy to kill. Which it seems to be the route they are taking. Look at the Titan nerfs (10 minutes to warp after a doomsday...thats a lifetime with the new items) and the incoming nerfs to motherships. All of the super-heavyweight classes have been hit drastically. Rethink this CCP know what the end result will be for this change. While said guns can be wholy owned by caps a defensive force could easily eat a dread for lunch with these changes facing near zero reprisal. I dont think thats what you want but i cant read minds.
Gojyu	Posted - 2007.06.15 04:19:00 - [12] Quote: Rethink this CCP know what the end result will be for this change. While said guns can be wholy owned by caps a defensive force could easily eat a dread for lunch with these changes facing near zero reprisal. I dont think thats what you want but i cant read minds. What's the rest of your support fleet doing while you're owning said guns? Quote: But if its a real friggin POS war on you need to be able to do more than just blow up buildings Why?, granted, I'm a new player, and never been in a pos war, but the description of the various dreadnaughts made it clear to me that dreads are designed to blow up stations. In fact, every source I've ever read has made it clear that dreadnaughts are designed to blow up stations and other capitals. As you're an experienced player, surely you have some sweet setup sniper megathron etc you can hop into when you're not having to blow up stations. It seems to be all the change does is make sure the dreadnaught is attacking starbase structures (which from what I've read take one hell of a beating) and other capitals and not knocking out the entire enemy fleet as well
Kuseka Adama Gallente WOLFPACK DELTA	Posted - 2007.06.15 04:30:00 - [13] Originally by: Gojyu Quote: Rethink this CCP know what the end result will be for this change. While said guns can be wholy owned by caps a defensive force could easily eat a dread for lunch with these changes facing near zero reprisal. I dont think thats what you want but i cant read minds. What's the rest of your support fleet doing while you're owning said guns? Quote: But if its a real friggin POS war on you need to be able to do more than just blow up buildings Why?, granted, I'm a new player, and never been in a pos war, but the description of the various dreadnaughts made it clear to me that dreads are designed to blow up stations. In fact, every source I've ever read has made it clear that dreadnaughts are designed to blow up stations and other capitals. As you're an experienced player, surely you have some sweet setup sniper megathron etc you can hop into when you're not having to blow up stations. It seems to be all the change does is make sure the dreadnaught is attacking starbase structures (which from what I've read take one hell of a beating) and other capitals and not knocking out the entire enemy fleet as well To the first one keeping them off your butt. But trust me sometimes the defenders just have more ships. Or worse better tactics and ships. This happens more often than you might think. As for the second you don't throw away a ship that costs the level of a dread. I dont have a sniper mega i wont for awhile. I need better skills for that. If you think i am crazy enough to try to change ships in the middle of a fight you are even newer than you think. I prefer drones myself to begin with but i dont like carriers too much. Too much cost not enough boom Dreads can take one heck of a beating but if a dread is called as the primary target it needs to be able to do its job and be able to effectively counterstrike. This ends that capability more or less something that made a dreadnaught extremely appealing. Like i said. Give me an EOS now granted dreads have their uses but if i cant keep an eye on the other big targets on the field they lose their appeal. Piloting any ship really if you are gallente is an exercise in multitasking. Guns armor repairers general piloting drones and target management. A gallente ship pilot is supposed to take full advantage of the targets a ship can have. To be able to use their drones to swarm and obliterate an enemy. This nerf doesnt make sense no matter the dread really. I use the moros as an example. I know that one better than the others. I made this character with the intent of actually piloting those at some point next year. Its unfortunate this was done. I think there were other ways to achieve the intent without losing a dread's ability to keep track of a battle.
Gojyu	Posted - 2007.06.15 04:44:00 - [14] Quote: To the first one keeping them off your butt. But trust me sometimes the defenders just have more ships. Or worse better tactics and ships. This happens more often than you might think Umm, shouldn't they win in that case 2 locked targets or no? Quote: If you think i am crazy enough to try to change ships in the middle of a fight you are even newer than you think. Oh no, I didn't mean that, I meant that shouldn't you guys do recon and such to have an idea of what enemy you're facing, and thus what ships would be best to fly? It seems to me that the implications of the thread are that dreads are able to handle pos stations as well as bring an enormous amount of firepower to bear on a fleet (the moros especially due to it's huge drone bonuses). Perhaps this is the very reason ccp are making the changes, as they turn the dreadnaught from something I hadn't even thought of before to what I had understood dreadnaughts to be all along (an extremely powerful niche ship, something that can fulfill a role that nothing else can, but still need support as it can't do any other real role) Though this is of course a noob talking, take my words with a grain of salt
Skraeling Shortbus Caldari Gallente Federal Bank	Posted - 2007.06.15 04:48:00 - [15] dreads need more reason to be fielded in battle not less imo. Guess ill just train for a carrier instead.
Camilo Cienfuegos EP0CH	Posted - 2007.06.15 04:53:00 - [16] A simpler solution would be not to restrict the number of concurrent locks at all - if they are determined to add a nerf to siege mode, make it a nerf to lock time instead. It would have the same effect in the end... -- Fix Caldari \| Fix Rigs
Kuseka Adama Gallente WOLFPACK DELTA	Posted - 2007.06.15 04:56:00 - [17] Originally by: Gojyu Quote: To the first one keeping them off your butt. But trust me sometimes the defenders just have more ships. Or worse better tactics and ships. This happens more often than you might think Umm, shouldn't they win in that case 2 locked targets or no? Quote: If you think i am crazy enough to try to change ships in the middle of a fight you are even newer than you think. Oh no, I didn't mean that, I meant that shouldn't you guys do recon and such to have an idea of what enemy you're facing, and thus what ships would be best to fly? It seems to me that the implications of the thread are that dreads are able to handle pos stations as well as bring an enormous amount of firepower to bear on a fleet (the moros especially due to it's huge drone bonuses). Perhaps this is the very reason ccp are making the changes, as they turn the dreadnaught from something I hadn't even thought of before to what I had understood dreadnaughts to be all along (an extremely powerful niche ship, something that can fulfill a role that nothing else can, but still need support as it can't do any other real role) Though this is of course a noob talking, take my words with a grain of salt The dread properly piloted can change the course of a fight on its arrival. Its an awesome ship with fearsome potential. But if its forced to stick on POS targets its effectiveness becomes limited. As for the first one. No sometimes luck strikes or the other side has more firepower to bear. More cap ships can determine the outcome. Especially with what they did bring to the table. Now the second they go into siege mode you can bet they will be called primary targets because they wont be able to target battleships as quickly and defend anywhere near as well as it used to be. Sometimes the biggest guns win the fight. They dont come much bigger than what a dread packs. But with its ability to kill so quickly two targets basically die instantly then you are stuck on a relock cycle. In that time even if the drones auto attack you are basically helpless. As for recon aint worth jack in this kind of fight. The enemy can and will change ships as fast as you can. And now likely even faster. The new jump gate system and items that are about to come into play bring an incredible defensive speed increase. Allowing defenders to bring multiple waves upon the enemy in short order. The attackers would at most have two waves. Likely significantly less unless they have a POS in the system as well and even then they likely wouldnt have a jumpgate under the current rules. The fact is due to the damage you take in the first sortie. You are basically done by the time the second wave hits. If you arent dead then the lag from all the action probably ctded you. I havent been in a POS strike yet that didnt have every kind of solid pvp ship that could fly. I understand your thinking and you are right at some points but the dread should be able to monitor a battle and aid in fleet defense. Not just be a giant battering ram. Considering all the skills a pilot invests to get that far they should have the ability to use those skills to their fullest.
The Economist	Posted - 2007.06.15 12:45:00 - [18] Bumpski. So what do you think of only limiting number of pos structures lockable to 2 rather than all target types CCP? Or are you dead-set on this OMGWTFMIGRAINEGIVEMENEUROFENNOW change?
DubanFP Caldari Four Rings D-L	Posted - 2007.06.15 14:43:00 - [19] Originally by: The Economist Bumpski. So what do you think of only limiting number of pos structures lockable to 2 rather than all target types CCP? Or are you dead-set on this OMGWTFMIGRAINEGIVEMENEUROFENNOW change? With the need to shoot multiple structures outside a PoS shield wouldn't the multiple locks be more importaint now then ever!? Especially in high-lag situations? ____________ Dark Shikari> If at first you don't succeed, whine about t20.
Genrath	Posted - 2007.06.15 15:02:00 - [20] Maybe they want other ships for those jobs? Dreads shoudlnt do it all.
The Economist	Posted - 2007.06.15 15:13:00 - [21] /me coughs and shuffles his feet, coughs again then gets back to waiting patiently
DubanFP Caldari Four Rings D-L	Posted - 2007.06.15 15:21:00 - [22] Edited by: DubanFP on 15/06/2007 15:21:11 Originally by: The Economist Edited by: The Economist on 15/06/2007 15:14:56 Originally by: DubanFP With the need to shoot multiple structures outside a PoS shield wouldn't the multiple locks be more importaint now then ever!? Especially in high-lag situations? Well aye, but CCP specifically want non-cap ships to help take them out, hence why they're limiting the active targets to two. It's the effect this'll have when shooting anything else that worries me Attacking PoSes is pretty much the only thing a Dreadnought is good at! Besides attacking a PoS with anything short of a capital tank is suicidal, basically you'll have to throw away dozens of battleships "many privately owned and painful losses for some" to take out some of the Deathstars. Add in the fact that people can now coordinate PoS weapons, and basically you're just screwing over all the members who can't easily afford a bunch of battleships. Finally add in the new soveriegnty system and taking over territory will be nearly impossible for anyone. ____________ Dark Shikari> If at first you don't succeed, whine about t20.
Tyson Gallane Caldari Political Warfare Executive	Posted - 2007.06.15 15:27:00 - [23] Noob question (I'm nowhere near flying a Dread yet ) : If you're fighting a fleet can you just stay in normal PWN mode (ie not Siege mode)? Then you can target more freely. And you're not immobile so you can slowly chug along. Or would that just get you killed TG. Originally by: CCP Oveur - As you can see, my young apprentice, your friends have failed. Now witness the firepower of this fully armed and operational wallet!
DubanFP Caldari Four Rings D-L	Posted - 2007.06.15 15:30:00 - [24] Originally by: Tyson Gallane Noob question (I'm nowhere near flying a Dread yet ) : If you're fighting a fleet can you just stay in normal PWN mode (ie not Siege mode)? Then you can target more freely. And you're not immobile so you can slowly chug along. Or would that just get you killed TG. That would get you killed, 1/4 the repair ability, 1/2 the cap-to-shield ratio, and 1/7th the damage. ____________ Dark Shikari> If at first you don't succeed, whine about t20.
ThaMa Gebir Gallente Raddick Explorations Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2007.06.15 15:36:00 - [25] Well the op does have a point, the ship (moros example) will be seriously gimped in this respect, but I would say reduce the penalty on the siege locking time. Right now (iirc) it takes 92.5% of your scan resolution OFF your ship, thus making it not good except to perhaps hit a pos with, but even then you will be struggling to make it reasonable timing. Not good. But meh, will have to adapt. ---------------------------- Confirmed heaviest member of RDEX........ Hah, no more hijacks here.
The Economist	Posted - 2007.06.15 15:37:00 - [26] Originally by: Tyson Gallane Noob question (I'm nowhere near flying a Dread yet ) : If you're fighting a fleet can you just stay in normal PWN mode (ie not Siege mode)? Then you can target more freely. And you're not immobile so you can slowly chug along. Or would that just get you killed TG. Unfortunately what you describe as "normal PWN mode" is in actuality "OMGWTFMYDREADSUCKS" mode
The Economist	Posted - 2007.06.15 18:25:00 - [27] C'mon devs, you know you want to reply really Or do you really want me to start posting in teal?
DubanFP Caldari Four Rings D-L	Posted - 2007.06.15 23:45:00 - [28] Edited by: DubanFP on 15/06/2007 23:47:09 Originally by: The Economist C'mon devs, you know you want to reply really Or do you really want me to start posting in teal? The sad thing is CCP Devs tend to have a policy "offical or unofficial" to not reply to threads that say "CCP this, CCP that, Devs, ect." in the title. I don't think i've ever seen them reply to a thread like this "unless it's to moderate something". ____________ Dark Shikari> If at first you don't succeed, whine about t20.
Skraeling Shortbus Caldari Gallente Federal Bank	Posted - 2007.06.16 00:29:00 - [29] Originally by: Genrath Maybe they want other ships for those jobs? Dreads shoudlnt do it all. thats the problem... dreads DONT do it all. For the vast majority of situations a carrier is better, now why should that be?
The Economist	Posted - 2007.06.16 05:27:00 - [30] Originally by: DubanFP The sad thing is CCP Devs tend to have a policy "offical or unofficial" to not reply to threads that say "CCP this, CCP that, Devs, ect." in the title. I don't think i've ever seen them reply to a thread like this "unless it's to moderate something". ...then you don't watch the forums very much (not that that's a bad thing, generally it's a sign of sanity heh)

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