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LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.19 16:08:00 - [91] Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 19/06/2007 15:37:14 You put forward a good stat based argument Aramandel but you're clearly not a Caldari pilot. Another who thinks that because it looks good on paper it applies to every situation Eve presents. It's like calculating the velocity of a falling rock without taking cross wind, altitude and divine intervention into account. As a Caldari pilot you get used to flying the second best ships in pvp, you take every edge you can get and if that means training skills to their conclusion then you do it. I can tell you right now that without every shield skill at V (bar the compensations to IV) you won't last 2 seconds against your Gallente/Minmatar counterparts in anything but a Crow. A Raven/Rokh and Scorpion are all flying coffins unless you're very specialised, just like the Typhoon. Ah, unless all your targets are npc's of course... My minnie alt is currently packing approx 7million sp less than my main and her sp are divided between two races. Shes already far more effective than welsh who is little use in anything but a Crow or a Rokh in fleet. Almost three years playing has taught me that while Caldari excel with very few skill points when you're blasting Guristas its an entirely different reality in pvp. Now wheres my coffin? In capital ships called phoenix ? While I used to be one of the "nerf the raven" emoteam, the last hp boost, rigs, javelin torp nerf and few other things pretty much killed caldari pvp. Shield tanking is just pathetic compared to rigged hp monsters or nano pumped armor tanks unless ofc you use pimp stuff and forget about tackling. Here enters the hp boost. Raven was good when you could nuke stuff before it mwded away or warped, now it' s impossible. Atm only caldari stuff worth flying is rook with recons L5(but you can forget about doing anything to capitals or recons), crow(still haxploit of survivability), flycatcher is still competent between 3 dictors(minmatard ********ness omitted,it needs nerf badly) and raven with damps. Rokh is crap, apart as nos baitboat, but domi/arma/phoon does it 100mil cheaper. Decent ship is also cerb and not so omfgexpensive, but nothing to write essays about. Enter pve: raven, drake, nighthawk are king of the hill, nothing comes even close. That's before gist enter into the play. After gist stuff, shied tanking eos seems reasonable option. Sometimes I wish I'd have 1 more caldari specced char for carebear purposes but hey... I can use some drugs and just pretend it's nighthawk while ogres take 5minutes to catch up with bs. On the other hand, drones are good to clean entire rooms while you do something :D Oh ... caldari capitals aren't shabby. But I think 4x speed to missiles and 1/4 flight time should be done asap. -------- I tanked D2 capital fleet and all I got was truncated Erebus mail.
Ferocious FeAr Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.06.19 16:57:00 - [92] Caldari is a gang race, not a solo race. I like the nighthawk the best. Rook is my second favorite. Cerberus is nice and all but the nighthawk does its job 10x better (unless you plan on sniping with missiles :l ). Don't hate me, learn to love me
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.06.19 16:57:00 - [93] Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld And we see how horribly balanced they are... Exept those rigs cost about as much as the ship - meaning they are no standard equipment - and give also a 15% speed penality (with good skills). And speed is vital for most armortanking ships. If we go higher up in the priceladder and we get to faction boosters vs reppers which are far FAR in favour for the boosters. Basically: - shields stronger on the t2 nonrig lvl - equal on the t2 rig lvl - FAR FAR stronger on the faction lvl Quote: except for the fact that shieldtanks are medslot items and mwd + web + cap injector + warp disruptor are a nono on caldari ship You can scratch webs from that list because their missle ships do not need to bother with transversal and their gun ships are snipers. Armortankers loose tanking slots due to damage and fitting mods. And a damage control, which also got popular with shieldtankers. Armortankers have to decide between gank and tank and can always tackle. Shieldtankers have to decide between tank and tackle and can always gank. Quote: Seriosuly, shieldtanking is useless atm, doesn't really serve any actual purpose. Solo it's not as good due to the tackle limitations. In groups however where you have your dedicated tacklers it's rather powerful. Originally by: welsh wizard You put forward a good stat based argument Aramandel but you're clearly not a Caldari pilot. Another who thinks that because it looks good on paper it applies to every situation Eve presents. Hardly. Shield tanking has, like armortanking, it's own strengths and weaknesses. It's not very practical solo, but rather powerful in groups since you can make high dps ships which are not paperthin at the same time. It's no coincidence that caldari have one of the best ships for tackeling. Quote: I can tell you right now that without every shield skill at V (bar the compensations to IV) you won't last 2 seconds against your Gallente/Minmatar counterparts in anything but a Crow. And I already showed you that the difference between 4 and 5 is rather minimal. It does not make the difference between being able to compete or not. And I would question the use of shield upgrades 5 and TSM5 (aside from the latter being a requirement for capital boosters). Shield management and (non-damage) shield compensation 5 make sense to max longterm, but thir boost is only a few percentages. If you call that vital I give you all armor compensation skills to 5 for armor tanking since that gives about the same effective boost - for twice as much SP. It's not that caldari does not have some issues, especially on the capital lvl, but "needing the most SP" is not one of them.
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.19 17:07:00 - [94] Originally by: Aramendel You can scratch webs from that list because their missle ships do not need to bother with transversal and their gun ships are snipers. Wrong. You don't web them you don't kill them. Unless if they don't web back and are slower than you. So technically you can kill npcing raven with cerberus without web. But thorax with tiny bit of brains will happily get away. Ofcourse, you can bring huginn, arazu and dictor to keep them in place, but then ... you can just bring chimera or wyvern to make sure you kill it better. -------- I tanked D2 capital fleet and all I got was truncated Erebus mail.
LMAAAOOOO	Posted - 2007.06.19 17:14:00 - [95] Caldari should get nerfed more, i find it redicilous that the drake can do 200 dps 50km whilst having a tank! And gallente should be boosted btw ______________________________________________ some guy telling a noob that pirates doesnt check their age before attacking "ooh! an age quip! very clever,I'm probably older than you darling! xx
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.19 17:51:00 - [96] Edited by: LUKEC on 19/06/2007 17:49:57 Originally by: LMAAAOOOO Caldari should get nerfed more, i find it redicilous that the drake can do 200 dps 50km whilst having a tank! And gallente should be boosted btw Wow dps of taranis, almighty -------- I tanked D2 capital fleet and all I got was truncated Erebus mail.
Caios Caldari Unified Refining Federation Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.19 18:17:00 - [97] I'd like to see a caldari boost almost as much as more Amarr love, partly because they do seem weak in PvP and partly out of a desire for all the caldari forum whiners to STFU about nerfing everything that has to do with Gallente. srsly, being the ******** kid in the classroom doesn't mean it's right to beat the smart kid with a lead pipe until they're down to your level.
Grendelsbane	Posted - 2007.06.19 18:53:00 - [98] Edited by: Grendelsbane on 19/06/2007 18:52:56 Here is an idea... How about seeing some specialized ECM type missiles? We got all these cool new bombs with Rev II, I think watered-down missile versions of some of them would be fun to play with. Especially the cap draining thing. I'm not asking to nerf anyone else, mind you, just looking for new toys to play with.
Sergis Caldari Life Extermination Coalition of Carebear Killers	Posted - 2007.06.19 19:37:00 - [99] Edited by: Sergis on 19/06/2007 19:38:30 Originally by: Klavayne Name me a caldari ship which is a solo pvp pwn-mobile? I'll save you the trouble, there isnt one. On the other hand i can name many gallente ones, dominix, myrmidon, megathron, eos etc. Its called variety, caldari are very good at PVE but not so good in PVP. And in a game which is supposed to be PVP orientated, gallente has the upper hand still. And why are you complaining, you got rich. Do you now want it to be harder for other people to do the same? Sigh... poor naive klavayne. Put me in a group of 2 and Caldari has the best pvp ships. Just take an inty with you. Solo pvp is dead anyhow. The nighthawk may as well be the greatest gang pvp ship in the game if youve ever encountered one or flown one. --- Evil Thug [RAT.]<.-A-.> hits you, doing 24601.0 damage.
Tovarishch Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.06.19 20:10:00 - [100] I've been continually watching this thread... and it's amazing to watch people who have no real hands on experience flying Caldari ships arguing how overpowered they are by crunching numbers. Anecdotal information at worst, and math and numbers at best, does not equal full analysis. While it's very true that missiles have an early career curve advantage in PVE (and some late career advantages also)... Caldari ships (and assorted Caldari weapon types) have been regularly nerfed. Not into uselessness, that's overstating it. However, while the 'adjustments' made might have had a fair effect on PVE... the effect on Caldari PVP was resounding. Crunch all the numbers you want - look at killboards and learn the fundamentals of how PVP truly operates (not theory)... and you will understand what while Caldari may be an appealing option for those looking to PVE using the fewest skill points possible... the 'balances' levied against Caldari and their weapons/tanking systems has set them far back in PVP usefulness. It would be wonderful to see missile velocity increased in exchange for a decrease in flight time. However, I thought I recalled the Devs mentioning that very high missile velocity is too taxing on the server. Oh well, back to letting the armchair PVP jockies theorize and proselytize from the cheap seats. All life is sacred... until the client says otherwise.
Neuromandis Novastorm Inc Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.20 17:19:00 - [101] I would also like to point out this: Yes, an XL shield booster II + boost amp II is better than LAR x II Now try one of the following: a) Not all ships are double-boosted. Not every useful fit is 2xLAR or XL + SBA. In fact, the need for tackling & cap booster prevents them altogether if you are not in a gang. b) An SBA needs 55 cpu. For a battleship, that's a bonus . For a Cruiser, it's the same. For a frig, it's a nightmare...
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.06.20 22:24:00 - [102] Originally by: Neuromandis a) Not all ships are double-boosted. Not every useful fit is 2xLAR or XL + SBA. In fact, the need for tackling & cap booster prevents them altogether if you are not in a gang. Not all ships are double repped, too. And, yes, solo you'll have problems. However, an armortanking ship has very similar issues, exept that it's not with tackling gear competing with tanking gear but with damage mods competing with tanking gear. If you go 1 X-L 2 vs 1 LAR2 the lar2 will have a 20% better capefficiency and the X-L will be able to repair 68.75% more dps. There the shieldtank is quite a lot better for taking burst dps and in a bigegr danger of running out of cap and the armortank more likely not being able to counter the incoming dps but less likely to run out of cap. That doesn't make the shieldtank worse for single tank setups, just different. Quote: b) An SBA needs 55 cpu. For a battleship, that's a bonus . For a Cruiser, it's the same. For a frig, it's a nightmare... The same is reverse ob the battleship lvl. A dual LAR is fittingwise more of a problem than a x-l + SBA. On the frig lvl an armortank is better than a shieldtank, though, that is correct (at least on the t2 lvl, if you go faction (and faction small boosters are relatively inexpensive as faction stuff goes) it's another thing alltogether).
Donna Maria Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 23:32:00 - [103] Originally by: Bentula Originally by: eritirimci Originally by: Bentula If you cant Fit you're ship correctly for PVE, don't blame it on the ship. All races have good PVE ships, just different tactics and fits, its entirely your fault. Some people have great success with this and receive a lot of post for it. Fixed for you, Im the girl momma warned you about..
Psrina Dorsai	Posted - 2007.06.20 23:37:00 - [104] I know I know, to make Caldari the worst PVE race, make the rats warp out like real people, so that you have to fit tackling mods to your ship. Then will you whiners STFU?
Neuromandis Novastorm Inc Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.21 02:32:00 - [105] Edited by: Neuromandis on 21/06/2007 02:31:16 Originally by: Aramendel snip Exactly.
Isyel Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.06.21 12:54:00 - [106] Originally by: Death Kill Originally by: ekalami I will not rest until there is a single low cap midslot item that screws missiles over like, you know, there is for gunnery users. You're a n00b Ok, first the serious part. It's a high slot item. Now... Are you ACTUALLY serious? Hold on... ehe... BWAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHA oh man, that was priceless... WHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHH Seriously... made me cry from laugher.... i hurt... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Originally by: Wrangler We don't want to discriminate anyone! We want both anti-social and social players to grief each other!

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