Originally by: AnKahn

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First, your a troll

Second, your a troll.

Your post should be deleted.

Exploration is a chance based aspect of the game. You could have easily found NOTHING even if your BS story is true.

You have a passive-aggressive personality. You should enjoy your ISK and not come here to troll.

I have an about 5 mil SP char and my Drake can handle triple 1.95 mil BS rat spawns. Im sure you're all impressed with me.

I have advocated cross training in all my recent posts.

That is all.

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Originally by: Morreia

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other races can do PvE faster once they get into high skill points or in a gang,

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Originally by: Kather

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Originally by: Morreia

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other races can do PvE faster once they get into high skill points or in a gang,

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and caldari can pvp in a gang

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Originally by: Kather

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i dont think he was really saying anything important about the rewards from complexes.

what he was on about was how a low point caldari char can do all the things that other races have to be high sp to do

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Quote:

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your 5 mill sp drake pilot can handle triple 1.95 mill spawns. my (at the time) 22mill sp amarr BS pilot struggled to do triple 1.8mill spawns (could do them, but stuggled)

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Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf

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> Don't solo and whine, the game should not be about balancing ships in 1v1 situations

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Originally by: Pottsey

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Its not a Caldari nerf. Passive tanking and mission running works better on other race's ships so its more of a nerf for them then Caldari.

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Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf

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I fly Caldari, Gallente, and Minmatar. The ONLY reason I trained Caldari is for PvE, though Ive since found several ships very useful for fleet and gang PvP.

You should not have to train another race for PvE
You should not have to train another race for PvP

Balance PvE:

> Give Amarr a true drone boat
> Give Minmatar a true missile boat
> Fix drones

Balance PvP:

> Don't solo and whine, the game should not be about balancing ships in 1v1 situations
> Caldari are excellent in gangs serving roles that no other race can match.
> If you are desperate to solo with Caldari then you must sacrifice tank for tackle, the same as minnie shield tankers and the same as armor tankers who must sacrifice tank for damage if they want to break most tanks these days.

Fact is if I'm in close range DPS boat I'd be more than happy to have an ECM ship backing me up.
If I'm set for range I can't think of a better tackler to pin them down than a crow.
If I'm in a fleet I love to be able to jam 6+ opponents or snipe from immense range with even a T1 fitting.

Sure you can pick various parts of this post apart but the fact remains, Caldari are not under-powered in PvP but they are over-powered in PvE.

Fix the darn drones, give the Minnies a missile boat, and stop the monopoly on PvE. I'm tired of flying a CNR for Gallente missions and I'm tired of seeing the darn things at every belt, every exploration site, and every hi-level agent system.

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Originally by: Dianabolic, of BOB, referring to MSN

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the fact that many of us speak to the devs / gm's / employees of CCP on a regular basis as friends is already common knoweldge?

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Originally by: CrAzYf1St

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sorry but after this :

Chimera model has been fixed. Centerpoint was moved to the center, and the model size increased to match the other carriers.

i dont care about caldari bc, anyway i use a myrm

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Originally by: o0TuNa0o

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Quote:

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your 5 mill sp drake pilot can handle triple 1.95 mill spawns. my (at the time) 22mill sp amarr BS pilot struggled to do triple 1.8mill spawns (could do them, but stuggled)

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Your kidding right?

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Originally by: Bentula

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Why shouldnt you have to train another race for pve or pvp? Thats like saying people shouldnt have to train lvl 5 BS to fly capitals, sure it makes it faster for everyone trying to get into them but is there a real reason besides not wanting to train stuff?

If people would be forced to only fly their racial ships i would wholeheartly sign your post, but as it is your just asking to have an easier time and not have to train too many skills.

Minnies dont need a pure missile boat, it wouldnt even help them. The reason the raven works so well is mostly because of its slotlayout and its weapons effectivness regardless of range, also you can easily use 3 damagemods and a 6 slot shieldtank(which equals a 7 slot dual repping armor tank in power). So for a minnie missileboat to work well it would have to be a exact copy of the raven, a armor tanking missile boat isnt going to cut it.

I also dont agree on your caldari being overpowerd in pve statement. Overpowered compared to what? To ships that are better at other things? So caldari have one ship thats really good at missions, sucks for mining, sucks in fleets and isnt even that hot for gang or especially solo pvp.

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Originally by: Xoduse

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Originally by: o0TuNa0o

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Quote:

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your 5 mill sp drake pilot can handle triple 1.95 mill spawns. my (at the time) 22mill sp amarr BS pilot struggled to do triple 1.8mill spawns (could do them, but stuggled)

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Your kidding right?

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If they were angels then theres absolutely no shame in it :P

BTW Caldari isn't too hot at pvp so let them be great at something...

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Quote:

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I gave up on Gallente PVE silly Fluffy telling me to fly Gallente. I am building a Caldari for PVE... its simply *that* much better.

Liang

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Originally by: KD.Fluffy

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Quote:

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I gave up on Gallente PVE silly Fluffy telling me to fly Gallente. I am building a Caldari for PVE... its simply *that* much better.

Liang

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dude, a megathron can be a great pve ship. Fit it with some rails and an AB and wham, you have a high damage ranged platform with decent mobility. I used to run missions in turret boats, and its very doable. Then I switched to missles for missions, and trust me, its not that much better. Turret boats are fine for PVE. Gallente are by far the best ratters as well. So really caldari is not all its cut out to be.

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Originally by: Dianabolic, of BOB, referring to MSN

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the fact that many of us speak to the devs / gm's / employees of CCP on a regular basis as friends is already common knoweldge?

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Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf

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It's called immersion.

Also I can't help but mention that your reasoning with regard to training implies that there can never be a fault with game balance, since we can all simply choose to use the flavor of the month. I find that reasoning fairly flawed and I'm surprised people don't recognise the Raven for what it is. The PvE flavor of the year, and last year, and next year, etc.

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Originally by: Dark Kavar

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I don't know how you had so many problems with rails in your brutix, rails have higher dps than missiles and the smaller faster frigs wouldn't be a problem becuase you would have had drones and hopefully a webber.

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Originally by: ekalami

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So the passive shield tank balance change to battlecruisers has you all hiding under a table to avoid the sky falling on you?

Well read on to feel a bit better.

My first character was a gallente specialist. At 12 mil of focussed skillpoints in a brutix i tried to do a lvl 3 serpentis extrava. Well gallente's best dps configuration, mwd and blasters dont tend to work too well in deadspace. So it had to be rails. It took me about 3 hours and two cargoholds full of ammo to complete that mission.

My second character I thought I'd go with the undisputed pve king that is caldari. I tried my first lvl 3 mission with only 2 mil sp, with over half of those in learning skills. So i really didnt expect my ferox to be able to complete lvl 3 missions. To my utter amazement and disgust, it was able to complete all level 3 missions easily.

How can a 2 mil sp char outperform a 12 mil sp char so blatantly?

Ok lets push the envelope, just how unbalanced are caldari for pve? So I started trying to solo lvl 4 missions in a drake. Well its not quite the solopwnmobile of doom as it can take quite a while to drop an npc battleship.
With about 5 mil sp and a completely t1 fitted drake i was able to solo all lvl 4 missions i tried. Completely ridiculous in my opinion.

Well along comes exploration, an essentially pve experience. Can I as a caldari char take the **** even more? How about going to 0.0 and soloing all those radar and magnetometric sites in my pve solopwnmobile with no sp?

With my trusty heron and t1 fitted drake I moved into 0.0 and within 2 weeks i had hit the jackpot of a 4 run ship interface bpc. Together with the other juicy rewards i made about 4 billion isk.

Risk v reward?

I think its high time the caldari uber low sp pwnmobiles get a few nerfs. To do the same thing with an amarr, gallente or minmatar char takes a lot of disciplined skillpoint training.

I will not rest until there is a single low cap midslot item that screws missiles over like, you know, there is for gunnery users.

I will now sit back and enjoy the whiiines and whaaaaas from the caldari pve community over the upcoming balance changes.

That is all.

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Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf

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> If you are desperate to solo with Caldari then you must sacrifice tank for tackle, the same as minnie shield tankers and the same as armor tankers who must sacrifice tank for damage if they want to break most tanks these days.

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Originally by: Benglada

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And whos going to tackle for them? Jesus?

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Originally by: Bentula

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1. You dont have any must fit medslot modules, thus can fully dedicate them to tank, no tackle or ewar/tackle with no tank yey
2. You must afford fitting 3 damage mods into your lows without directly hurting your tank, with out them you have the dps of a wet sponge
3. You have over 50km range with your high damage ammo to sad most of the pvp is under 20km
4. You can adapt damagetypes to sad with kinda crapy dps
5. You do full damage vs. BS at any range inside your weapon range ofc before they warp out

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Originally by: eritirimci

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Originally by: Bentula

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1. You dont have any must fit medslot modules, thus can fully dedicate them to tank, no tackle or ewar/tackle with no tank yey
2. You must afford fitting 3 damage mods into your lows without directly hurting your tank, with out them you have the dps of a wet sponge
3. You have over 50km range with your high damage ammo to sad most of the pvp is under 20km
4. You can adapt damagetypes to sad with kinda crapy dps
5. You do full damage vs. BS at any range inside your weapon range ofc before they warp out

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fixed for pvp

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Originally by: Dragon Lord

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The reason caldari are best at pve is because the mission setup favours them, u cant use a mwd in nearly all of them so u cant dictate range. This is v bad for a gun ship, not a problem for a missile boat.
Secondly if a raven gets webbed not biggy it still gets its max dmg anyway. If a gun ship gets webbed u have big problems.

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Originally by: ekalami

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So the passive shield tank balance change to battlecruisers has you all hiding under a table to avoid the sky falling on you?

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Originally by: Kather

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my (at the time) 22mill sp amarr BS pilot struggled to do triple 1.8mill spawns (could do them, but stuggled)

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Originally by: Gawain Hill

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Originally by: Xoduse

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Originally by: o0TuNa0o

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Quote:

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your 5 mill sp drake pilot can handle triple 1.95 mill spawns. my (at the time) 22mill sp amarr BS pilot struggled to do triple 1.8mill spawns (could do them, but stuggled)

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Your kidding right?

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If they were angels then theres absolutely no shame in it :P

BTW Caldari isn't too hot at pvp so let them be great at something...

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can amarr be great at something too then?

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Originally by: Klavayne

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Name me a caldari ship which is a solo pvp pwn-mobile?

I'll save you the trouble, there isnt one. On the other hand i can name many gallente ones, dominix, myrmidon, megathron, eos etc.

Its called variety, caldari are very good at PVE but not so good in PVP. And in a game which is supposed to be PVP orientated, gallente has the upper hand still.

And why are you complaining, you got rich. Do you now want it to be harder for other people to do the same?

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Originally by: ekalami

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So the passive shield tank balance change to battlecruisers has you all hiding under a table to avoid the sky falling on you?

Well read on to feel a bit better.

My first character was a gallente specialist. At 12 mil of focussed skillpoints in a brutix i tried to do a lvl 3 serpentis extrava. Well gallente's best dps configuration, mwd and blasters dont tend to work too well in deadspace. So it had to be rails. It took me about 3 hours and two cargoholds full of ammo to complete that mission.

My second character I thought I'd go with the undisputed pve king that is caldari. I tried my first lvl 3 mission with only 2 mil sp, with over half of those in learning skills. So i really didnt expect my ferox to be able to complete lvl 3 missions. To my utter amazement and disgust, it was able to complete all level 3 missions easily.

How can a 2 mil sp char outperform a 12 mil sp char so blatantly?

Ok lets push the envelope, just how unbalanced are caldari for pve? So I started trying to solo lvl 4 missions in a drake. Well its not quite the solopwnmobile of doom as it can take quite a while to drop an npc battleship.
With about 5 mil sp and a completely t1 fitted drake i was able to solo all lvl 4 missions i tried. Completely ridiculous in my opinion.

Well along comes exploration, an essentially pve experience. Can I as a caldari char take the **** even more? How about going to 0.0 and soloing all those radar and magnetometric sites in my pve solopwnmobile with no sp?

With my trusty heron and t1 fitted drake I moved into 0.0 and within 2 weeks i had hit the jackpot of a 4 run ship interface bpc. Together with the other juicy rewards i made about 4 billion isk.

Risk v reward?

I think its high time the caldari uber low sp pwnmobiles get a few nerfs. To do the same thing with an amarr, gallente or minmatar char takes a lot of disciplined skillpoint training.

I will not rest until there is a single low cap midslot item that screws missiles over like, you know, there is for gunnery users.

I will now sit back and enjoy the whiiines and whaaaaas from the caldari pve community over the upcoming balance changes.

That is all.

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Originally by: Dragon Lord

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The reason caldari are best at pve is because the mission setup favours them, u cant use a mwd in nearly all of them so u cant dictate range. This is v bad for a gun ship, not a problem for a missile boat.

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Originally by: o0TuNa0o

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Quote:

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your 5 mill sp drake pilot can handle triple 1.95 mill spawns. my (at the time) 22mill sp amarr BS pilot struggled to do triple 1.8mill spawns (could do them, but stuggled)

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Your kidding right?

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Originally by: ekalami

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I will not rest until there is a single low cap midslot item that screws missiles over like, you know, there is for gunnery users.

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Originally by: ekalami

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Originally by: Kather

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i dont think he was really saying anything important about the rewards from complexes.

what he was on about was how a low point caldari char can do all the things that other races have to be high sp to do

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Absolutely correct. I dont mind caldari being better at pve, since this is supposed to be a game of variation, and arguably, caldari arent so good at (specifically solo) pvp.

I have no problem with a 12 mil sp caldari being better than a 12 mil sp gunnery race at pve either, as long as worse at something else like pvp for example.

I do have a problem with a 2 mil sp caldari being better than a 12 mil sp gunnery race at pve though.

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Originally by: welsh wizard

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In fact if you want to use both Caldari weapons systems its significantly more skill intensive than the other races, especially with shield training which takes weeks longer than armour training.

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Originally by: Phrixus Zephyr

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Firstly. If you can't do level 3 missions with a Brutix you must be some kind of moron.

Secondly. Myrmidon.

Game. Set. Match. Stfu.

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Originally by: Aramendel

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Originally by: welsh wizard

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In fact if you want to use both Caldari weapons systems its significantly more skill intensive than the other races, especially with shield training which takes weeks longer than armour training.

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Afraid the race who needs the most SP award is still held by minmatar. They usually overexeggerate it, but it is true.

About the skills, it depends. It takes a bit longer to to train for capital class tanking for shields. For being effective on the t2 lvl however, not really. Mainly due to not having to train up a single lvl5 skill for that - you need 541k SP to get a full near top efficiency shieldtank.
Unless you want x-l boosters, then it's shield op 5 too. But armor tankers need mech 5 for t2 large reppers, so there's no difference there. And shield management 5 for the SBA2 - but considering an SBA1 + an x-l2 is already better in both capefficieny and rep/sec than a dual LAR2 you don't really need the t2 version for a compareable performance.

Armor tankers need for the t2 lvl 962k SP since they need a lvl5 skill to use t2 harderners in the first place and also need to train up their compensation skills to at least 4 for the still-superior EAN2. Shield tankers can simply use invul2.

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Quote:

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So, in short, shield tanks need longer to max, but are faster to bring to the "good effciency" lvl. It's a tradeoff.

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Originally by: welsh wizard

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Rails, Cruise, Torps, Standards, Heavies, HAM's, rockets and the entire Ewar tree. Even if Minmatar train both tanking proficiencies & both weapons sets they don't come close. If you're going to insist that Minmatar need to train all those missile skills to full then I think we can safely insist on blasters being part of the Caldari skillset too.

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Quote:

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There are 2 armour tanking skills both of which are tier 1 or 2 skills, thats it, end. Both races have the compensations to do but they are not neccessary. In other words no, it takes longer to skill an efficient shield tank.

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Quote:

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There are more pvp skillpoints in Caldari than there are in any other race if you want to fly every Caldari ships to its maximum potential.

It really is that simple.

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Originally by: Aramendel

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...

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Quote:

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Feel free to ignore it though.

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Originally by: welsh wizard

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A shockingly bias opinion. You think Caldari pilots don't need drones?

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Quote:

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You think shield compensations are less important despite passive shield tanks being advantageous currently?

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Quote:

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Caldari are the least cap efficient race, shield compensations are very important as a result.

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Quote:

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I believe you fail to see the importance of the shield compensation skills because you're Minmatar and therefore you don't need them.

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Quote:

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There are a further 3 vital shield skills than armour skills all of which need to be at level V, Count them.

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Originally by: ekalami

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So the passive shield tank balance change to battlecruisers has you all hiding under a table to avoid the sky falling on you?

Well read on to feel a bit better.

My first character was a gallente specialist. At 12 mil of focussed skillpoints in a brutix i tried to do a lvl 3 serpentis extrava. Well gallente's best dps configuration, mwd and blasters dont tend to work too well in deadspace. So it had to be rails. It took me about 3 hours and two cargoholds full of ammo to complete that mission.

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Quote:

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My second character I thought I'd go with the undisputed pve king that is caldari. I tried my first lvl 3 mission with only 2 mil sp, with over half of those in learning skills. So i really didnt expect my ferox to be able to complete lvl 3 missions. To my utter amazement and disgust, it was able to complete all level 3 missions easily.

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Quote:

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How can a 2 mil sp char outperform a 12 mil sp char so blatantly?

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Quote:

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Ok lets push the envelope, just how unbalanced are caldari for pve? So I started trying to solo lvl 4 missions in a drake. Well its not quite the solopwnmobile of doom as it can take quite a while to drop an npc battleship.
With about 5 mil sp and a completely t1 fitted drake i was able to solo all lvl 4 missions i tried. Completely ridiculous in my opinion.

Well along comes exploration, an essentially pve experience. Can I as a caldari char take the **** even more? How about going to 0.0 and soloing all those radar and magnetometric sites in my pve solopwnmobile with no sp?

With my trusty heron and t1 fitted drake I moved into 0.0 and within 2 weeks i had hit the jackpot of a 4 run ship interface bpc. Together with the other juicy rewards i made about 4 billion isk.

Risk v reward?

I think its high time the caldari uber low sp pwnmobiles get a few nerfs. To do the same thing with an amarr, gallente or minmatar char takes a lot of disciplined skillpoint training.

I will not rest until there is a single low cap midslot item that screws missiles over like, you know, there is for gunnery users.

I will now sit back and enjoy the whiiines and whaaaaas from the caldari pve community over the upcoming balance changes.

That is all.

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Originally by: Morreia

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Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf

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> Don't solo and whine, the game should not be about balancing ships in 1v1 situations

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Then why do the other races need to be boosted for SOLO PvE, they are very good at gang PvE.

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Originally by: Elspeth Vigneron

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Over-all, I think they run missions about the same. Some missions really vex him. Others vex the Raven. By and large, they're pretty close. I don't do Minmater or Amarr, but I have corpies that have comparative experience in those types (Caldari/Amarr & Caldari/Minmater) and they seem to think this is, well, an overblown issue.

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Originally by: ekalami

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My first character was a gallente specialist. At 12 mil of focussed skillpoints in a brutix i tried to do a lvl 3 serpentis extrava. Well gallente's best dps configuration, mwd and blasters dont tend to work too well in deadspace. So it had to be rails. It took me about 3 hours and two cargoholds full of ammo to complete that mission.

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Originally by: Puupuu

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dude... your face...

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Quote:

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There aren't. If you want ot max your shield tanking abilities, certainly, but they are not in any way "vital". You can use a shieldtank just fine without them.

Needed skills to make shieldtanks effective on the cruiser lvl:

- shield compensation 4 Lvl 5 is nice if you want to max it, but having 2% less capneed isn't really a border between useable and unuseable.
- shield management 4 Lvl 5 is nice and actually needed for SBA2s, but SBA1 to oversided booster > 2 * armor reps in both rep/sec and capefficiency, so it's not really needed to compete, it's only an additional boost you can train for
- shield operation 4 Lvl5 is needed for X-l boosters, however LAR2s also need mech5, so fr the BS lvl both tanking methods need an identical amount of SP more. And it on lvl 5 is nice for passive tanks. However there you can then also include rep systems 5 for armortanks sicne they need that to max their regeneration too. Still no difference.
- shield upgrades 4 Lvl5 is, again, not really needed but to solve some fitting problems. But armortanks have no skill to reduce thefitting of plates *at all* so this is again only an additional bonus
- tactical shield manipulation 4 utterly pointless to bring it to lvl 5 unless you got capital

A total of 543k SP.

Now, armortanking, again on cruiserlvl:

- hull upgrades 5 needed for t2 harderners
- mechanics 4 needed for t2 armor reps, lvl5 for large ones
- large armor rep 4 again for t2 reps, and to get a better rep/sec
- the 4 compensation skills since omnitaking is the primary tanking mode for both shield and armortanking and while the shield omni harderners are active the armor omni harderners are passive (and have in exchange a smaller efficiency, you need 3 EAN2 with lvl4 skills to give the same bonus as 2 invul2)

A total of 964k SP. Or 602k SP without the compensation skills.

As said before, for a shieldtank you need longer to max it, but are a lot faster to bring it to an effective lvl compared to armortanks.

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Originally by: Ferocious FeAr

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I'm not trying to take anything away from armor tanking and the time that is needed to be effective with it. I just wanted to let you know from a caldari spec character point of view that those skills that you listed is important to have at 5.

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Originally by: JP Beauregard

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The experience with Exodus playtesting has scarred me for life. Those were bug-reports, not feature requests, you numbskulls....

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Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf

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Edited by: Daelin Blackleaf on 18/06/2007 14:14:16
Having somewhat tired of this argument would it be possible for someone with more patience than I for quickfit to calculate:-

> Maximum Drone/Missile DPS for a Domi/CNR
> Maximum tank for the two strongest and two weakest resists on the same setup (assume mission fit for each)

Do this for both a character with max skill points and for one with no level 4's, feel free to add faction (but not officer) modules as the majority of the mission running community does, and allow us to settle this once and for all.

Setups used should equal or exceed the ability of the standard set-ups we all know and love, arguments can then be made for the inclusion of gun DPS to the domi fits fitting such, however imho due to the range and tracking issues that generally affect turrets the real DPS is negligible in comparison to that of the drones while the additional effort is significant considering the repetitive (some might say isk farming) nature of missions. Not to mention such DPS is not focused against the NPC's weakest resist. Feel free to post the numbers inclusive of gun DPS if that is your cup of tea though.


Lets see some numbahs!

[EDIT: Of course if you feel another ship can compete then by all means post your results for said ship... I hear (for example) the 'phoon can perform well in missions, though I'm sadly yet to try it.]

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Originally by: Igualmentedos

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.....i think the real problem is comparing a domi to a CNR. That seems a little stacked in favor of a certain ship. And, if anything, proves that caldari are not overpowered mission running *****s like the op so "intelligently" assumes.

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Originally by: Aramendel

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Originally by: Ferocious FeAr

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I'm not trying to take anything away from armor tanking and the time that is needed to be effective with it. I just wanted to let you know from a caldari spec character point of view that those skills that you listed is important to have at 5.

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I am afraid you are utterly missing the point.

Let me repeat it for you:
As said before, for a shieldtank you need longer to max it, but are a lot faster to bring it to an effective lvl compared to armortanks.

I never ever said that it is pointless to bring any of them to lvl5. I said you do not need to bring them to 5 to get an effective shieldtank. Obviously 4% more shield and 2% less capneed is nice to have, but compared to the efficiency jump from t1 to t2 harderners or t1 to t2 boosters/reps the effect is miniscule.

The minor resistance boost of actives from the damage comb skills is nice to have, but it's also only a very minor boost. If you cap out you'll most likely die unless it is a very close fight.
Armor tankers need the comp skills *always*. When they get from the "being effective" to the "I want to maximize my skills" lvl they are a clear cadidate for lvl 5, like shield comp and management is for shield tankers.

The shield damage compensation skills? Not really. I doubt you will train them to lvl 5 unless you ran out of any other skills to train (and not only shieldtanking ones).

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Quote:

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A heavy shield tank is more cap effective than a heavy armortank. Caldari ships have no disadvantages in cap recharge.

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Originally by: KD.Fluffy

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Quote:

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A heavy shield tank is more cap effective than a heavy armortank. Caldari ships have no disadvantages in cap recharge.

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Last I checked at base stats an armor rep is much more efficient then a shield booster. The shield booster does boost more per second though, just at a higher cap cost. Now if you relaly want too you can fit faction boosters/boost amp and have a more efficient shield tank. But who cares, thats faction. If you cry about that, im gonna cry about the fact that a cyrstal set gives no benifit to capital ships.

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Originally by: AnKahn

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THEN you could have the NPCs get really good at MISSILE DEFENSE and Caldari would no longer have such an advantage at PvE.

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Originally by: Minerva Moore

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Originally by: AnKahn

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THEN you could have the NPCs get really good at MISSILE DEFENSE and Caldari would no longer have such an advantage at PvE.

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Yeah. That would be REALLY good for EVE, becuse then there would be NO reason whatsoever for anyone to pick Caldari as their race.

FFS, someone is better than gallente at SOMETHING. It has to be fixed, it must, and it must happen quickly. CCP booohooo fix it plz.

Ummm...

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Originally by: Santa Anna

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Originally by: KD.Fluffy

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Quote:

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A heavy shield tank is more cap effective than a heavy armortank. Caldari ships have no disadvantages in cap recharge.

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Last I checked at base stats an armor rep is much more efficient then a shield booster. The shield booster does boost more per second though, just at a higher cap cost. Now if you relaly want too you can fit faction boosters/boost amp and have a more efficient shield tank. But who cares, thats faction. If you cry about that, im gonna cry about the fact that a cyrstal set gives no benifit to capital ships.

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With max skills, a T2 booster with a T2 amp is slightly better than a T2 armor rep in terms of cap efficiency.

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Originally by: Aramendel

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Originally by: Santa Anna

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Originally by: KD.Fluffy

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Quote:

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A heavy shield tank is more cap effective than a heavy armortank. Caldari ships have no disadvantages in cap recharge.

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Last I checked at base stats an armor rep is much more efficient then a shield booster. The shield booster does boost more per second though, just at a higher cap cost. Now if you relaly want too you can fit faction boosters/boost amp and have a more efficient shield tank. But who cares, thats faction. If you cry about that, im gonna cry about the fact that a cyrstal set gives no benifit to capital ships.

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With max skills, a T2 booster with a T2 amp is slightly better than a T2 armor rep in terms of cap efficiency.

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You do not need max skills or a t2 SBA. The turnover point is at lvl 3 shield compensation with a tech 1 SBA and a t2 XL.
t2 XL base stats: 600 shield / 400 energy / 5 sec cooldown
t1 SBA: 30% boost

600 * 1.3 / 5 -> 156 shield/sec
400 * 0.94 (lvl 3 shield comp) / 5 -> 75.2 cap/sec
156/75.2 -> 2.075 shield/cap

With a t2 SBA and max skills you rep 2.27 shield/cap.

Dual LAR2 give with max skills 142 armor/sec and have a 2.0 armor/cap efficiency.


Now for a light tank (aka no SBA or only one rep) a shieldtank has with max skills there only 60% of the capefficiency of an armortank - however an armortank has also (with max skills) only 59% of the regeneration of a shieldtank. A shieldtank is there more likely to run out of cap, an armortank is more likely to get outDPSed.

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Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld

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Please, include armor rigs and shield rigs and then compare them both.

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Originally by: Aramendel

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Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld

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Please, include armor rigs and shield rigs and then compare them both.

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Sure. With maxxed skills:

1 Nanobot Accelerator I, 2 Auxiliary Nano Pump I

218 rep/sec
2.6 armor/cap

2 t1 Core Defence Charge Economizer, 1 t1 Core Defence Capacitor Sa***uard

221 rep/sec
2.52 shield/cap

However, the penality of shield rigs is a joke compared to the penality of armor rigs. Most armortankers are gunships which are heavily dependant on their speed due to the lower range of turrets and the need to minimize transversal.
The negative effect of an higher sig is minimal compared to that unless you are fighting dreads.

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Originally by: welsh wizard

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Edited by: welsh wizard on 19/06/2007 15:37:14
You put forward a good stat based argument Aramandel but you're clearly not a Caldari pilot. Another who thinks that because it looks good on paper it applies to every situation Eve presents. It's like calculating the velocity of a falling rock without taking cross wind, altitude and divine intervention into account.

As a Caldari pilot you get used to flying the second best ships in pvp, you take every edge you can get and if that means training skills to their conclusion then you do it. I can tell you right now that without every shield skill at V (bar the compensations to IV) you won't last 2 seconds against your Gallente/Minmatar counterparts in anything but a Crow. A Raven/Rokh and Scorpion are all flying coffins unless you're very specialised, just like the Typhoon. Ah, unless all your targets are npc's of course...

My minnie alt is currently packing approx 7million sp less than my main and her sp are divided between two races. Shes already far more effective than welsh who is little use in anything but a Crow or a Rokh in fleet.

Almost three years playing has taught me that while Caldari excel with very few skill points when you're blasting Guristas its an entirely different reality in pvp.

Now wheres my coffin?

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Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld

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And we see how horribly balanced they are...

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Quote:

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except for the fact that shieldtanks are medslot items and mwd + web + cap injector + warp disruptor are a nono on caldari ship

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Seriosuly, shieldtanking is useless atm, doesn't really serve any actual purpose.

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Originally by: welsh wizard

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You put forward a good stat based argument Aramandel but you're clearly not a Caldari pilot. Another who thinks that because it looks good on paper it applies to every situation Eve presents.

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Quote:

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I can tell you right now that without every shield skill at V (bar the compensations to IV) you won't last 2 seconds against your Gallente/Minmatar counterparts in anything but a Crow.

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Originally by: Aramendel

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You can scratch webs from that list because their missle ships do not need to bother with transversal and their gun ships are snipers.

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Originally by: LMAAAOOOO

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Caldari should get nerfed more, i find it redicilous that the drake can do 200 dps 50km whilst having a tank!

And gallente should be boosted btw

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Originally by: Klavayne

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Name me a caldari ship which is a solo pvp pwn-mobile?

I'll save you the trouble, there isnt one. On the other hand i can name many gallente ones, dominix, myrmidon, megathron, eos etc.

Its called variety, caldari are very good at PVE but not so good in PVP. And in a game which is supposed to be PVP orientated, gallente has the upper hand still.

And why are you complaining, you got rich. Do you now want it to be harder for other people to do the same?

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Originally by: Neuromandis

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a) Not all ships are double-boosted. Not every useful fit is 2xLAR or XL + SBA. In fact, the need for tackling & cap booster prevents them altogether if you are not in a gang.

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Quote:

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b) An SBA needs 55 cpu. For a battleship, that's a bonus . For a Cruiser, it's the same. For a frig, it's a nightmare...

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Originally by: Bentula

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Originally by: eritirimci

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Originally by: Bentula

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If you cant Fit you're ship correctly for PVE, don't blame it on the ship. All races have good PVE ships, just different tactics and fits, its entirely your fault. Some people have great success with this and receive a lot of post for it.

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Fixed for you,
Im the girl momma warned you about..

Originally by: Aramendel

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*snip*

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Originally by: Death Kill

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Originally by: ekalami

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I will not rest until there is a single low cap midslot item that screws missiles over like, you know, there is for gunnery users.

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You're a n00b

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Originally by: Wrangler

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We don't want to discriminate anyone! We want *both* anti-social *and* social players to grief each other!

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