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VERY SIMPLE idea to make frigates/cruisers worthwhile.

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Silverlancer	Posted - 2004.01.14 20:48:00 - [1] Battleships have an 90% accuracy drop against frigates. Enough so that a frigate can't hurt a BS, but the BS can't really hurt the frigate (frig attacking BS won't do enough damage to get past its shield rechargers). Cruisers have only 25% degraded accuracy. Battleships exist to kill cruisers, cruisers exist to kill frigates, and frigates exist to launch torpedoes at battleships
ArLance	Posted - 2004.01.14 21:30:00 - [2] I think 90% is a bit much. But consider this, A battleship only needs one good hit for most frigates. The reason is that it is able to hit Frigates using Any turret it mounts. I still maintain that the Probelm is not with the ship but with the weapons its able to carry. The large Turrets should only be effective against other Battleships and Cruisers. IF a Battleships wants to be effective against Frigates then it should have to mount smaller turrets as well as biggers one. Think of it as a WWII Battleship firing 16 inch guns to shoot down aircraft. IT DID NOT HAPPEN! The battleships had Smaller batteries of anti-aircraft defenses to guard against such threats. This game should model after that. "You've Got to be Nuckin Futs!!"
Mysterio	Posted - 2004.01.14 21:54:00 - [3] I don't think you should give Battleships a 90% degraded accuracy, but I think you should give Large weapons a degraded accuracy. Still I think a BS should be able to fit some small weapons to eliminate any frig comming in to close. Another idea would be to make frigs for maneuverable and faster and thereby making them harder to hit. Dunno how much it would help, but I think the idea would be intresting. =============================================== A stupid man learns from his mistakes A smart man learns from other's. Raptus Regaliter ===============================================
Silverlancer	Posted - 2004.01.14 22:00:00 - [4] EXACTLY! Thank you. How about this... make each turret have a maximum tracking speed past which it will not hit something? Here's the idea: The idea is to have small turrets track at speeds up to 1500m/s, medium turrets up to 300m/s, and large turrets up to 200m/s. This means that small guns can hit anything short of a Condor with an MWD. Even a cruiser/BS using an MWD will be hit by this gun. This means that medium guns can hit pretty much anything other than a frigate. This means large guns can't hit the fastest cruisers! Yes, battleships, you'll need medium guns to shoot the faster cruisers! This applies to rocket launchers too--a ballistic missile is NOT going to shoot down a fighter plane. The launchers may have to be implemented differently, but thats not part of my idea really. Don't use them enough to know. Now here's how it works. If the ship is moving below 75% of the gun's rated speed, its gets the normal accuracy. If the ship is moving 75-90% of the max speed, the accuracy drops by 25%. It they're moving at 90-100% of the max speed of the gun, the accuracy drops by 75%. So battleships, if you want to hit those frigates at ALL, use a couple launchers (and load the weaker/faster tracking ammo), or put some small guns on! Basically, the whole point of this is that battleships can be hit with any gun, cruisers can be hit with medium and small, and frigates can be hit with only small. So you need different guns for different ships. And frigates aren't useless. And battleships aren't shooting down fighters with mortars.
Deadflip2	Posted - 2004.01.15 00:27:00 - [5] dude finally get it!!! frigates are ment to shoot donw small indys and stuff they arnt designed to take on bss!!! its big batches of cruisers that can... once again a worthless post, besides to make 1 bs costs the same as 1000 frigates! --- "this song reminds me of the girl i met on a schooltrip, she was really nice, and she really liked me. I forgot to ask her her phone number" - Nelix trist OMG im a pretzel!!!
Xailia	Posted - 2004.01.15 00:35:00 - [6] Edited by: Xailia on 15/01/2004 00:38:17 A dozen frigates could take down a BS... Tracking speed cannot be based on target ship velocity, it just doesn't make any sense. The way it works now IMO is the best. Tracking for turrets is based on radians/sec. It's essentially the same thing you are talking about. The current method it is almost impossible for a BS to hit a frigate with a Large turret more than two times or so if they frigate is moving laterally close to the BS. However if the frigate is moving 30km away, it's not going to take much effort to track the frigate. If a frigate was going 3000m/s directly towards a BS's turret, is it going to miss? Not likely. Now the only question left is... Is tracking working correctly on Tranquility? "The sky above the port was the color of a television, tuned to a dead channel."
Siphol Kalarth	Posted - 2004.01.15 09:37:00 - [7] How about this for an idea, I'm sure it's been posted before but I havn't seen it (and can't find it on clanzero's search tool) Allow frigates to target subsystems on battleships. Obviously the hp of modules would have to be looked at, and perhaps only hi slot items could be targeted. The fact that the frigate cannot actually do enough damage to destroy the battleship would then not be an issue since they could with enough luck, make the ship ineffective and a sitting duck for more powerfull attacks. Cruisers would not be able to target subsystems on battleships, and frigates could not target cruiser subsystems. Frigates would be able to take on cruisers in small groups, and render battleships ineffective. Cruisers could be setup to take out frigates with high tracking low damage guns, or do damage to battleships with high damage weapons. Battleships kill battleships, structures (when they appear) and unwarey cruisers. They have a _very_ hard time hitting frigates, but do a large amount of damage if they get a lucky hit (isn't that how it's ment to be at the moment) I keep faith, it's only what I believe in that changes.
sokkusu	Posted - 2004.01.15 10:30:00 - [8] The thread about subsystem damage is here : http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=52453&page=2
arutha	Posted - 2004.01.15 11:45:00 - [9] i try real hard too understand your need for super frigates in the game and honestly cant figure it out .frigates are allready the best scout craft in the game . thats not includeing exploiting a pod. the only redeeming feature of this thread is the effort too try balance it with the introduction of small turret mounts on battleships . but that wont help the battleships lock time on frigates . the game atm is nicley balanced between the ship classes its sad you dont see it that way .seems you what too disable a battleship in your 240 k frigate while the other person in his battleship limps too the repair yard with his hard earned 70 million ship . theres no game balance there . soz . it wasent me who placed the price lists on the game market for each ship . maybe if you redeemed the thread alittle and argued that the npc price for battleships should be lowered and frigate prices raised id kinda understand what your trying too achieve . but noone has .in this thread and previous superfrigate threads ive read . regards arutha
Katjia	Posted - 2004.01.15 11:49:00 - [10] on a test several scout divisions from numerous corps decided to see if ther teams could down a non-tanked scorp. It took a team of four frigs to beat it down but it was possible..it did take a bit of time (10 min) enough time for his buddies to show up. In our test case no buddies showed up . The only thing that would suck for frigs is a tanked bs with a large smartbomb. but as with many thing ther are ways around that Just don't discredit Frigates as indy killers and useless. changing gun attributes to track at certain speeds would suck. many piolits use ther guns to shoot down incoming torps and cruise missles. perhaps certain abilities for smaller ships to dodge incoming better. ie big gun at lil ship , lil ship zip outta the way b4 gun hits . ain't that evasive manuvering?? dunno.. but that comment about frigs got me grrrrrr Katjia Fear the Scout ccp pls pimp the convoys again.....ie put things back in them.
ArLance	Posted - 2004.01.15 14:49:00 - [11] In my above post please do not misunderstand What I am suggesting. I do not advocate one frigate being able to take down a BS. One frigate alone should not be able to gather enough firepower to break through a BS shields. I am also not suggesting that a BS be defenseless against a Frigate. What I am saying is that loading up a BS with all Large weapons and being effective at hitting a frigate does not make sense to me. Large weapons shoul dbe used for other Battleships and Cruisers. I am trying to think of a way for Balance so that Frigates are not swatted out of the sky in one shot from a BS before the frigate driver even has a chance to come out of warp good. I think the new patch has helped this but I still believe that a BS should have to mount a Combination of big and small guns to be effective against all targets. This would also give the BS driver something to specialize in a Fleet battle, you could have a BS that is setup for counter BS operations and then another BS in a Fleet setup for counter Cruiser and Frigate operations. The setup on a ship should always be varied for the correct situation. . "You've Got to be Nuckin Futs!!"
Steven Dynahir	Posted - 2004.01.15 16:31:00 - [12] Quote: Think of it as a WWII Battleship firing 16 inch guns to shoot down aircraft. IT DID NOT HAPPEN! Actually Yamato was equipped with Anti-Aircraft shotgun like shells for it's massive guns. So it did happen SigPl/HQ&Log Coy/MNB(C)/KFOR
ArLance	Posted - 2004.01.15 21:19:00 - [13] Quote: Quote: Think of it as a WWII Battleship firing 16 inch guns to shoot down aircraft. IT DID NOT HAPPEN! Actually Yamato was equipped with Anti-Aircraft shotgun like shells for it's massive guns. So it did happen The Yamato used 18 inch guns. I would however Love to see your source from a historical interest and not a critical one. Regardless however I would still not expect the 18 inch turrets to turn track a fast moving dive bomber. I also would not think the Yamato would only use 18 inch guns and remove all of the other anti aircraft defenses. I still maintain a mix smaller and larger weapons should be the norm rather than a full load of megaguns. That will create balance and not domination while still keeping the battleship as a major power in the game. "You've Got to be Nuckin Futs!!"
Mon Palae	Posted - 2004.01.15 21:52:00 - [14] Edited by: Mon Palae on 15/01/2004 21:53:47 Quote: i try real hard too understand your need for super frigates in the game and honestly cant figure it out .frigates are allready the best scout craft in the game . thats not includeing exploiting a pod. the only redeeming feature of this thread is the effort too try balance it with the introduction of small turret mounts on battleships . but that wont help the battleships lock time on frigates . the game atm is nicley balanced between the ship classes its sad you dont see it that way .seems you what too disable a battleship in your 240 k frigate while the other person in his battleship limps too the repair yard with his hard earned 70 million ship . What don't you get about this? In real life the most dangerous threat to battleships was planes. Indeed, one of the most fearsome battleships in history, the German battleship Bismarck, was stopped by a single torpedo from a WWI era Sworfish torpedo bomber (Swordfish was a single engine, open **pit bi-plane). The Swordfish didn't sink the Bismarck but it sealed the mighty ships fate allowing other ships come in and finish it off. So, a plane worth barely what a car costs today disabled a ship that took a significant chunk out of an entire country's wallet. This isn't fantasy...it's historical fact. What is being discussed here amounts to the same thing. Not a super frigate that can single handedly knock out a battleship but frigates that can, with good tactics, sufficient numbers and a little luck count as a real threat to a battleship. Battleship drivers then need to consider how they equip their ship. If they have support cruisers then go all big guns but if the BS is all big guns then it should get pin***ed to death by frigates it cannot hope to stop. As it stands now frigates vs. a battelship is sheer stupidity. Generally two shots from most battleships kill most frigates. As for the longer locking times a battleship needs to get on a frigate it helps barely at all. A combat fitted frig isn't all that fast and will have a very hard time closing a 20-30km range to get SO close that a battleship guns cannot track and hit it. Of course then most battleships just unleash drones which have frigates for breakfast. If the frig does have enough speed it likely has little in the way of combat ability once it does arrive...and you still have the drones to worry about. Finally, some friends and I tested this horrid locking time as we had experienced pirate campers getting locks on us surprisingly fast. With the proper mods it was down to 10 seconds. After warp in we immediately tried to warp out. Doing it as FAST as we could the BS got a lock abotu 50% of the time (always close though...difference often just the sluggish interface). Guns are insta hit so a BS driver fast on his guns can blast a frigate out fo the sky before it can leave. Only thing that will save a frigate is a speed better than 1500 m/s and a run to the gate and that is calling it close. As it stands frigates are near worthless in a fight against anything except a hauler or another frigate.
Paw Sandberg	Posted - 2004.01.18 03:23:00 - [15] Quote: Edited by: Mon Palae on 15/01/2004 21:53:47 Quote: i try real hard too understand your need for super frigates in the game and honestly cant figure it out .frigates are allready the best scout craft in the game . thats not includeing exploiting a pod. the only redeeming feature of this thread is the effort too try balance it with the introduction of small turret mounts on battleships . but that wont help the battleships lock time on frigates . the game atm is nicley balanced between the ship classes its sad you dont see it that way .seems you what too disable a battleship in your 240 k frigate while the other person in his battleship limps too the repair yard with his hard earned 70 million ship . What don't you get about this? In real life the most dangerous threat to battleships was planes. Indeed, one of the most fearsome battleships in history, the German battleship Bismarck, was stopped by a single torpedo from a WWI era Sworfish torpedo bomber (Swordfish was a single engine, open **pit bi-plane). The Swordfish didn't sink the Bismarck but it sealed the mighty ships fate allowing other ships come in and finish it off. So, a plane worth barely what a car costs today disabled a ship that took a significant chunk out of an entire country's wallet. This isn't fantasy...it's historical fact. What is being discussed here amounts to the same thing. Not a super frigate that can single handedly knock out a battleship but frigates that can, with good tactics, sufficient numbers and a little luck count as a real threat to a battleship. Battleship drivers then need to consider how they equip their ship. If they have support cruisers then go all big guns but if the BS is all big guns then it should get pin***ed to death by frigates it cannot hope to stop. As it stands now frigates vs. a battelship is sheer stupidity. Generally two shots from most battleships kill most frigates. As for the longer locking times a battleship needs to get on a frigate it helps barely at all. A combat fitted frig isn't all that fast and will have a very hard time closing a 20-30km range to get SO close that a battleship guns cannot track and hit it. Of course then most battleships just unleash drones which have frigates for breakfast. If the frig does have enough speed it likely has little in the way of combat ability once it does arrive...and you still have the drones to worry about. Finally, some friends and I tested this horrid locking time as we had experienced pirate campers getting locks on us surprisingly fast. With the proper mods it was down to 10 seconds. After warp in we immediately tried to warp out. Doing it as FAST as we could the BS got a lock abotu 50% of the time (always close though...difference often just the sluggish interface). Guns are insta hit so a BS driver fast on his guns can blast a frigate out fo the sky before it can leave. Only thing that will save a frigate is a speed better than 1500 m/s and a run to the gate and that is calling it close. As it stands frigates are near worthless in a fight against anything except a hauler or another frigate. i love the words it deletet anyway i think your arguments are good ones i also remember the story of the Mighty Bismark (i am Danish what can i say) it is in fact fact Thank You Paw Sandberg for all your BPC needs see http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=55706&page=1
arutha	Posted - 2004.01.18 11:31:00 - [16] arent drones . the eve equivalent too the swordfish ? . yea i like the bismark story too . brave pilots in those little bi-planes . anyway if you remember rightly this isent real - life . thank god, and the game mechanics dont necessarly need too follow real life models . i mean how many megathrons are actually orbiting earth right now ? . but try remember the bismark had alot of small gunnery fitted firing at the bi-planes as they flew in . eve battleships dont have point defence slots . i would argue they should . and guys try look at frigates for what they are . newbie ships. okie maybe battleships have become too commen . and its cruisers that should really be the mainstay of the eve fleet . but pls frigates are scouts and newbie ships . cruisers are the ship of the line and the battleship though arguably more commen than it should be ,is the games prime asset . i honestly think the game atm is balanced between the ship classes . even if it dosent suite everyone who wants uber frigate power .
Man'corr	Posted - 2004.01.18 11:58:00 - [17] Hmm your answer is called tracking speed, and as it is in EVE now it works really good. A ship that approaches dead on is a nonmoving target for the gun, no need to turn that turret. Basing tracking on speed would be quite useless IMO, why make EVE less realistic?, and it would make for some funny stuff, like BBs with 2 MWDs, woops sorry that the other BB cant hit me :D All of above post was formulated wth 100% honesty and 100% sarcasm. Now i only need to get drunk The 3rd turret is the Malediction is missing. Plz make as much noise as possible so that CCP gets us a remedy for that, possibly before X-Mas this year.
Tuwile Naldai	Posted - 2004.01.19 01:27:00 - [18] Anyone who went on the frigate march will know that 50 frigates are no match for 17 battleships :)

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