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Tibor Ferenc
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Posted - 2004.01.14 23:56:00 -
[1]
Ok the the game has bout on release for quite some time now but a large battle is still impossible (or near as damn it). For the first time in days FA actualy came out to fight but it was immpossible. Props to all who showed up. Hope we kill some more of you tonight.
Tib.
http://mmogcenter.com/tiborsig.jpg
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Xelios
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Posted - 2004.01.14 23:59:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Xelios on 15/01/2004 00:00:09
Maybe posting the same thing over and over will make the problem fix itself? =|
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Tibor Ferenc
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Posted - 2004.01.15 00:05:00 -
[3]
Ye I know its just a bit frustrating thats all m8y.
Tib.
http://mmogcenter.com/tiborsig.jpg
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Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2004.01.15 00:14:00 -
[4]
 Quote:
Ye I know its just a bit frustrating thats all m8y.
Tib.
Don't worry, it won't last ... I'm sure CCP must be earning enough from all our $12-a-months that they can afford to completely rebuild the entire internet backbone and eliminate every lag point in the entire world, just for your benefit.
No problem. 
_______
"Soon" is an ancient Icelandic word meaning "some time before the next Ice Age." |
Prophecy
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Posted - 2004.01.15 00:42:00 -
[5]
Quote:
Don't worry, it won't last ... I'm sure CCP must be earning enough from all our $12-a-months that they can afford to completely rebuild the entire internet backbone and eliminate every lag point in the entire world, just for your benefit.
No problem.
Kudos for the loyalty, but you're incorrect.
The internet handles the 5-6k connections to the Eve servers without any difficulty. Simple proof being the relatively good response times enjoyed by most players when they are evenly distributed among Eves servers.
As a matter of fact, Eves bandwidth requirements are pretty low, and represent an incredibly tiny fraction of internet traffic.
The issues lie in CCPs internal cluster network and the manner in which they handle large numbers of users interacting within a single system. This is itself a non-trivial problem, and there may be hardware limitations that render it difficult to impossible to solve today. But it is addressable by CCP within their own server environment.
It's unlikely that complaining about it is going to make it happen any faster. But the internet backbone doesn't have to be rebuilt to make it feasable.
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IZON
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Posted - 2004.01.15 00:52:00 -
[6]
Thank you Prophecy.
It's good to to enlightenment stamping out bone - ignorance. 
"...master! there's a guy in the south village called IZON, he is a Ninja!" |
Araviel
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Posted - 2004.01.15 00:53:00 -
[7]
i think its microsofts fault and not CCP,
in my opinion i think microsoft should move more resources to the development of SQL to enhance performance.
EPIC Recruitment post
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Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2004.01.15 00:59:00 -
[8]
Quote:
The issues lie in CCPs internal cluster network and the manner in which they handle large numbers of users interacting within a single system.
I don't get lag when I'm in the middle of fifty other guys. How come the internal cluster doesn't slow me up?
_______
"Soon" is an ancient Icelandic word meaning "some time before the next Ice Age." |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2004.01.15 01:04:00 -
[9]
Quote:
Quote:
The issues lie in CCPs internal cluster network and the manner in which they handle large numbers of users interacting within a single system.
I don't get lag when I'm in the middle of fifty other guys. How come the internal cluster doesn't slow me up?
Baldour, the game is optimized and capped for 56k connections. I think the Eve client barely uses 1/2 that.
There are issues with the game. Want proof? hit ctrl-tab or ctrl-f9 and watch most of the lag caused by the GUI disappear the next time you're in the middle of fifty other guys.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Cirle
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Posted - 2004.01.15 01:26:00 -
[10]
Quote:
i think its microsofts fault and not CCP,
in my opinion i think microsoft should move more resources to the development of SQL to enhance performance.
Using SQL and performance in the same sentence usually means you have already lost the battle. It may make some of the central storage/clustering/failover easier to abstract but, inherently, in terms of performance you have to work really hard to make it even reach a starting line, let alone win a race.
Cirle |
Sankari Kinoi
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Posted - 2004.01.15 01:31:00 -
[11]
You sure it's not video lag and not connection lag?
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Antimater
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Posted - 2004.01.15 01:44:00 -
[12]
with a MMO game..lag is a fact of life...get used to it..then you may feel you can actually use it to your advantage..?
We have found a number of aspects and characteristics which lag produces...from fleet deployment times to jump in gate times...these can all be utilised by the savvy pilot or fleet coordinator to good use.
In every negative...etc etc
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Prophecy
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Posted - 2004.01.15 01:52:00 -
[13]
Put 80 players in one system location. Add all the drones and launched missiles of a full-fledged battle, and the calculations necessary to keep track of all of seems to bring performance within that location to a screeching halt.
The issue would not be the latency of their individual internet connections. (they were fine before they got to that location, on the same internet connection) The issue would be the distribution of trajectory calculations within Eves server cluster, and the problem of a high number of players interacting in a battle in one shared location.
It's likely not possible to distribute calculations for a single battle, (those objects all have to interact after all) So how do they go about maximizing the efficiency of an overwhelming number of trajectory calculations on a single machine? That's not an easy problem, and I think the number grows geometrically with the number of iteracting objects. But there are lots of directions that the answer might lie in. Maybe CCP will surprise us with something.
There are also likely client side issues with large battles. Both with the expanded bandwidth of items information being recieved, and the complexity of displaying a larger number of in-space objects. But since the extreme lag seems to affect everyone, I'm guessing the problem is mostly server side.
In any case, while internet latency will contribute to the minor lag experienced by individual players, the specific problem of extreme lag for all players involved in a large scale battle is unrelated.
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Cirle
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Posted - 2004.01.15 02:23:00 -
[14]
Quote:
It's likely not possible to distribute calculations for a single battle, (those objects all have to interact after all) So how do they go about maximizing the efficiency of an overwhelming number of trajectory calculations on a single machine? That's not an easy problem, and I think the number grows geometrically with the number of iteracting objects. But there are lots of directions that the answer might lie in. Maybe CCP will surprise us with something.
It would be interesting to know the calculations being performed, and the optimisations thereof... It is possible to distribute the calculations required for some actions when people are clustered, but almost always at the risk of some slight divergence or lag between the result you would expect if running the calculations in a serial fashion. Whether that is important is a matter of opinion, more than right or wrong ways to approach the problem.
I am still surprised (pleasantly) at the scope to which the game has aimed. While it is possible that the game engine is internally aggregating a number of the calculations, simply looking at the system from a raw requirements perspective the ability to theoretically have up to 8/8/8 active action/monitored items per combatant, combined with server side calculations of the properties of the ships, and the ability to further increase the number of items requiring monitoring by launching drones and missiles, all of which require looking after (which might also have a number of internal properties; drones have shield/armour/cap ratings, after all), it is not unreasonable to assume that there might be issues.
Then again, it is more than possible that the problems are somewhere else entirely, and maintaining all of the above information is a mere ticking over of the engine :) I am, it should be said, from a history which favours limited active items so that the overall number of individual selections active at any one time is low, and allowing players to upgrade and balance within that space, and am thus biased towards that viewpoint.
Cirle |
Vacuole
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Posted - 2004.01.15 06:39:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Vacuole on 15/01/2004 06:42:02
Each ship, drone, etc. is made up of polygons and they have to be rendered in real-time. 1 or 2 or 5 ships -- no problem with a fast computer.
The problem is when a whole bunch of ships are all together, where the client has to render all of them in real-time, fast enough to look like live video. What is it, 30fps?
Trying to draw all the ships 30 times in a second exceeds the client computer's capability and things get sluggish and choppy.
Assuming I am right up there, then why not just smarten-up the client so that it 'knows' not to load 3D models and textures for rendering after X-number of objects are in the grid?
The data coming down the pipe about ship locations and who fired what and who just died is insignificant compared to the computing power needed to render all those damn objects in the huge battles.
Add effects like torpedo splash, missile flares, and all that crap, and you have a huge numbers-crunching game that the client computers can't cope with at 30fps, and I think that's where all the intolerable lag comes from.. you know, where even activating modules is delayed and sluggish and unweildly.
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ElCoCo
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Posted - 2004.01.15 07:34:00 -
[16]
Edited by: ElCoCo on 15/01/2004 07:35:32
The problem is certainly fps and not lag due to bandwidth etc...
You can notice lag when the game pauses for a moment.
My guess is while Eve is certainly good looking, its`graphics engine is not very versatile.(not good clipping?)
The view when you`re zoomed out as far as possible is like playing a game of icons and not spaceships. Even then the frame rate is unacceptable with many ships/drones in the view.
Eve does not have much better graphics than say Homeworld2 or Hegemonia but it plays far worse than them.
(P4@2,6mhzHT, 1gig DDR dual channel, FX 5600... shouldn^t be like that)
edit:spelling errors
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Psy Corp
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Posted - 2004.01.15 09:19:00 -
[17]
if you take away the ui and the sound youl be like lag free.. not totaly lag free but it reduces the lag like hell.. i always do that in battle  but i guess thats the diffrence between a n00b and everyone els in a battle.. cause ive done it long...
I Have The Power Of The Mighty Lo.0lipop..
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Aodha Khan
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Posted - 2004.01.15 10:11:00 -
[18]
Quote:
i think its microsofts fault and not CCP,
in my opinion i think microsoft should move more resources to the development of SQL to enhance performance.
Araviel. MS SQL Server is one of the best performing databases out there.
http://www.tpc.org/tpcc/results/tpcc_perf_results.asp
So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak. |
Stonyvision
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Posted - 2004.01.15 10:18:00 -
[19]
What i don't understand is: Why don't they program a LOD mode?
If therE's 40 to 80 BS in one location with drones out as it happenes in fountain atm the engine should render with less detail.
Atm it renders every BS with full quality wich no sytsem on this planet can handle.
I got a damn decent gaming rig and it's all fine with 40 ships around but if it gets more lag gets annoying.
Especially the undocking from station and warping in and out is bugging me.
And to those who say it's only client side. That's not true.
If i get 5 to 10 FPS with 80 ships on screen there is still no reason why it would delay my actions for a lot of seconds.
The traffic is too much for the server.
The one who said their bandwith is great as the servers are... PARTLY correct.
Problem is the whole battle of these 80 ships takes place on one server node it seems.
The biggest cluster is no use if only one gets lagged and the rest is idling.
Months ago systems went down wich were srver nodes so that veryfies my theory that one server node = a few systems.
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ElCoCo
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Posted - 2004.01.15 10:24:00 -
[20]
Quote:
if you take away the ui and the sound youl be like lag free.. not totaly lag free but it reduces the lag like hell.. i always do that in battle but i guess thats the diffrence between a n00b and everyone els in a battle.. cause ive done it long...
/agreed...doing the same thing...
But the point is we shouldn`t.
Next thing you know we`ll be disabling all graphics and playing as a text adventure
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Lucas De'Thal
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Posted - 2004.01.15 10:28:00 -
[21]
Quote:
Quote:
Ye I know its just a bit frustrating thats all m8y.
Tib.
Don't worry, it won't last ... I'm sure CCP must be earning enough from all our $12-a-months that they can afford to completely rebuild the entire internet backbone and eliminate every lag point in the entire world, just for your benefit.
No problem.
i know flaming is non productive and i'm going to be a hypocrite here but
You're and idiot.
And as stated by one of the dev's (marketing, whatever) said before in a recent interview, 30k subscribers is more than enough for them to operate and profit, so money is not an issue.
______________________________________________
Hellmar > sorry for the attitude, playing a n00b character through the current state just left me a bit bitter
dev chat: Mar 18, 2004
hellmar> "you lot are just so clever you have a good history for out smarting us :-S "
dev chat: Feb 12, 2004 |
Prophecy
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Posted - 2004.01.15 10:48:00 -
[22]
Limitations of the client-side graphics engine would explain choppy frame rates when many objects are on the screen. But the 20+ sec delays in activating modules, the several minute loading times players are experiencing in large battles, those point to overwhelmed servers.
And yet, I've been in Yulai with 70+ players. And while it can be a bit sluggish, (especially at transition points) I'm not experiencing the kind of extreme slowdown that players in large-scale battles complain about. That might be explained by CCPs cluster setup. (Yulai likely has more server resources allocated to it than your typical 0.0 system) But I would guess it also has to do with the explosive number of calculations involved in tracking all those drones and missiles.
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Lynal Bother
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Posted - 2004.01.15 11:19:00 -
[23]
Quote:
if you take away the ui and the sound youl be like lag free.. not totaly lag free but it reduces the lag like hell.. i always do that in battle but i guess thats the diffrence between a n00b and everyone els in a battle.. cause ive done it long...
Iv been playing a g00d few months but this is pr0bably a nice n00bish c0mment t0 head here,
H0w the greasy jeebus do y0u activeate m0duals with n0 ui?
"Botehred"
Omen (Bad Omen I-X ) (R.I.P)
Maller (Unnameable I) (R.I.P)
Typhoon (Red Dwarf I) (R.I.P)
Tempest (Reighous Endvor) (R.IP)
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Omniwar
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Posted - 2004.01.15 11:28:00 -
[24]
Quote:
Quote:
if you take away the ui and the sound youl be like lag free.. not totaly lag free but it reduces the lag like hell.. i always do that in battle but i guess thats the diffrence between a n00b and everyone els in a battle.. cause ive done it long...
Iv been playing a g00d few months but this is pr0bably a nice n00bish c0mment t0 head here,
H0w the greasy jeebus do y0u activeate m0duals with n0 ui?
Use the quick buttons.
F1 for first high slott
F2 for seccond high slott
and so on and so forth
ALT+F1 for first medium slott
ALT+F2 for seccond medium slott
and so on and so forth
First slott is always starts on the left
You can also press ESC button and choose what key on the keyboard you wish to designate for each slott if you like.
I have no idea what combination is for low slotts as I have not used an active low slott module for a long time 
Hope this helps.
Spawn of the Devil
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Negotiator
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Posted - 2004.01.15 11:29:00 -
[25]
lol thats why omniwar always crashes after he activates 4th medslot :D
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Luther Pendragon
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Posted - 2004.01.15 11:38:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Luther Pendragon on 15/01/2004 11:39:56
Is it just me or hasn't lag improved? People are talking about 40-80 ships lagging a system, for me, thats impressive, I remember it requireing far less to lag before. What would lag be like nowadays on a counter strike server with 80 people on?
____________________________________
Taggart wants YOU. Join TTi!
*waves his hand in your face in the jedi way* |
Asharee Intrefer
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Posted - 2004.01.15 11:41:00 -
[27]
I have rarely experinced any latency problems, even in systems where people were complaining about bad lag in local chat. Maybe that's because I'm on 2.5Mbit downstream with good ping, but not everyone else is.
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F4ze
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Posted - 2004.01.15 11:51:00 -
[28]
Imho....
Lag problems are caused by the protocol being used: tcp/ip.
On the + side, it evens out the playing field no matter where in the world you are. (client and server have to agree about the state of the game-world)
On the - side, in a big battle the server has to wait for the slowest player's connection to send his data before the server can send new data to all the other clients. So 1 player with a bad computer and 56K modem can slow up all the rest. Ergo...lag...and then some.
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KrapYl
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Posted - 2004.01.15 11:53:00 -
[29]
Quote:
Edited by: Luther Pendragon on 15/01/2004 11:39:56
Is it just me or hasn't lag improved? People are talking about 40-80 ships lagging a system, for me, thats impressive, I remember it requireing far less to lag before. What would lag be like nowadays on a counter strike server with 80 people on?
Yes it has, very much indeed!
what is it u guys want ? 200 on 200 ? is that what would satisfy u ?... 
Any MMORPG with 80 players in the SAME fight is impressive to me... but thats just about the sweet spot for eve yes ?... well, maybe with some tweaks and so, we can get 50 on 50... but much further i dont see it go
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Stonyvision
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Posted - 2004.01.15 12:18:00 -
[30]
Quote:
Quote:
Edited by: Luther Pendragon on 15/01/2004 11:39:56
Is it just me or hasn't lag improved? People are talking about 40-80 ships lagging a system, for me, thats impressive, I remember it requireing far less to lag before. What would lag be like nowadays on a counter strike server with 80 people on?
Yes it has, very much indeed!
what is it u guys want ? 200 on 200 ? is that what would satisfy u ?...
Any MMORPG with 80 players in the SAME fight is impressive to me... but thats just about the sweet spot for eve yes ?... well, maybe with some tweaks and so, we can get 50 on 50... but much further i dont see it go
Uhmm why not? 
If a whole alliance fights there are a lot ships around. And Fleet battles are what make this game fun.
you think 40 ships fighting 40 others is dumb?
I think we ask m0o if they sent just 5 Bs next time ok? They sure understand.
Seriously: If fleet battles aren't possible the game has failed since PVP is a big part of the game.
I am optimistic that this issue will be fixed though.
We're not asking for being able to fight with 100s of ships at a decent framerate.
It should be possible to activate modules with that many ships around though.
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