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Spaced Skunk
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.06.16 17:37:00 -
[1]
I am a BIG fan of artillery, big big fan. However since the release of the Hurricane, I see myself ditching the Muninn. Why?
Hurricane has an extra gun, a few extra slots, more HP buffer, good fitting, can fit a gang mod too.
To put it blunty, the ONLY reasons why I would choose a Muninn over a Hurricane for artillery these days is for the speed, the extra bit of range, the tracking bonus is all well and good, but with the Hurricanes extra slots I can fit more tracking mods, and its cool looks. However the pros and cons and price just makes Hurricane such more a feasable choice.
Does anyone agree the Muninn would be better if its current Heavy Assault Ship bonuses were changed from 10% range and 7.5% tracking per level to a standoff 20% range bonus?
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Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2007.06.16 17:42:00 -
[2]
I flew the Muninn a lot before the Hurricane showed up, but Hurricane just blows everything else away. I wouldnt even have trained hacs if hurricane was available when i started.
Its probably not only the muninn that could use some boosts.
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 Originally by: CCP Wrangler
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tarin adur
Gallente
Einherjar Rising
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Posted - 2007.06.16 17:47:00 -
[3]
Yeah,Most HAC have become obsolete with the introduction of Tier 2 BC
Myrm > Ishtar
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Spaced Skunk
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.06.16 17:48:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
I flew the Muninn a lot before the Hurricane showed up, but Hurricane just blows everything else away. I wouldnt even have trained hacs if hurricane was available when i started.
Its probably not only the muninn that could use some boosts.
Exactly my point right down to the tee, I've even (and you've probably done it) flown/setup the Hurricane like a Vagabond to some great success.
I do agree the battlecruisers should do more damage/alpha but I thought HACs were meant to be specialised in a certain way, Muninns 'artillery boat ship' only gets at most a 50% range increase and 37.5% tracking, which is complete crap tbh..NEEDS MORE 
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Miss KillSome
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2007.06.16 17:48:00 -
[5]
its same on gallente side..
brutix, deimos became obsolete when myrm came out..whatever brutix and deimos can do, myrm can do it twice better, for ALOT lower price..
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Spaced Skunk
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.06.16 17:49:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Miss KillSome
its same on gallente side..
brutix, deimos became obsolete when myrm came out..whatever brutix and deimos can do, myrm can do it twice better, for ALOT lower price..
Brutix could actually always out dps the Deimos, if you fit the brutix with a few speed mods here and there, you can get it acting like a cruiser with good dps, I never saw the point in the Deimos even with the Brutix nevermind Myrmidon :P
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Phelan Lore
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.06.17 07:05:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Spaced Skunk
Does anyone agree the Muninn would be better if its current Heavy Assault Ship bonuses were changed from 10% range and 7.5% tracking per level to a standoff 20% range bonus?
Good change IMO.
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Ciphero
The Wild Hunt
FATAL Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.17 09:05:00 -
[8]
More bloody grid!  |
Karma Coma
The Rising Stars
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Posted - 2007.06.17 09:53:00 -
[9]
The hurricane has an extra gun, extra slots, more hp and can fit a gang mod link because its a battlecruiser, its suppose to outclass cruisers and, at the end of the day thats all heavy assault ships are: bonus and resist buffed cruisers.
It might need some love or, would serve its purpose with better with other bonuses but, not for the reason mentioned and, should never be on par with a ship that outclasses it.
just my opinion
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Spaced Skunk
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.06.17 10:09:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Karma Coma
The hurricane has an extra gun, extra slots, more hp and can fit a gang mod link because its a battlecruiser, its suppose to outclass cruisers and, at the end of the day thats all heavy assault ships are: bonus and resist buffed cruisers.
It might need some love or, would serve its purpose with better with other bonuses but, not for the reason mentioned and, should never be on par with a ship that outclasses it.
just my opinion
I agree to an aspect, but the Muninn is a tech II ship, therefore gets an extra 2 bonuses. If the Muninn got the range bonus the Hurricane will still out damage, have more slots/hp, be able to fit a gang mod and generally be better.
The Muninn however would be a specialised sniper, making is a specialised ship, fits the Heavy Assault role imo.
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Karma Coma
The Rising Stars
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Posted - 2007.06.17 10:29:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Karma Coma on 17/06/2007 10:28:36
Originally by: Spaced Skunk
The Muninn however would be a specialised sniper, making is a specialised ship, fits the Heavy Assault role imo.
I agree with that part 100% - i wasnt critising your idea just your argument itself :) the extra slots/hp/gang mod part because of its class aspect its just deserves
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Bentula
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Posted - 2007.06.17 10:47:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Spaced Skunk
The Muninn however would be a specialised sniper, making is a specialised ship, fits the Heavy Assault role imo.
I agree, however that would totally kill any purpose left in the eagle. Between the vulture and a sniper muninn there wouldnt be much point to fly it anymore.
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Ryysa
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.06.17 11:02:00 -
[13]
Mh, muninn is quite fine imo.
Graph here.
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William Hart
QUANT Corp.
Southern Connection
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Posted - 2007.06.17 11:17:00 -
[14]
20% Would be a bit insane, maybe 12.5% would be better. Some people really appreciate the speed of the Muninn aswell!
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Bazman
Caldari
Werda Fookarwii
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Posted - 2007.06.17 11:41:00 -
[15]
My Muninn was routinely outdamaging Hurricanes on the last proper SHC Gank night, and all my gunnery skills are at 4 :|
The Muninn is fine as it is I think. It may be a HAC, but it is still just a cruiser, boosting it to compare it to a Hurricane is a bit pointless.
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Donna Divine
Gilded Goose Brokerage
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Posted - 2007.06.17 13:16:00 -
[16]
If there's a problem then it's with HAC's in general.
Alot of the BC's and commands give more power, more versatily and more tankability for about the same or less investment.
The difference between say a hac and a bc should be that the bc should be easily hit by anything from frig to BS, while the hac should fear BS's alot less.
If this isn't currently the case, what about a sig radius reduction on hac's in general ?
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Gilded Goose Brokerages
Trading to order. |
Spaced Skunk
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.06.17 15:46:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Bentula
Originally by: Spaced Skunk
The Muninn however would be a specialised sniper, making is a specialised ship, fits the Heavy Assault role imo.
I agree, however that would totally kill any purpose left in the eagle. Between the vulture and a sniper muninn there wouldnt be much point to fly it anymore.
Well I am one for wanting more turrets on the Ferox/Eagle/Vulture. I am pretty sure too the range on the Eagle/Vulture will still be superior.
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bldyannoyed
Dark Centuri Inc.
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.06.17 18:38:00 -
[18]
The Muninn does not need to be changed in any way shape or form.
I fly both Muninn and 'Cane extensively, and i can tell you this for an absolute fact.
Due to the way stacking and bonuses apply it is not possible to get a Hurricanes tracking/range/locking range/scan res as high as a Muninns.
37.5% tracking and 50% optimal is a massive bonus for artillery, the tracking in particular giving the Muninn a real edge when using Tremor.
Like many HAC's you may argue that the Muninn is gimped next to its BC counterpart, but when used in the niche it is intended ( in this case as a compact sniper ) it outclasses the HAC in almost every way that is important.
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected]) |
Vicious Phoenix
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Posted - 2007.06.17 19:46:00 -
[19]
The Muninn is fine, the problem is that the tier 2 BCs totally outclass their tier 1 counterparts and HACs to some extent. Tier 3 BS are different but similarly powerful to their lower tier counterparts, whereas tier 2 BC are vastly superior to and different from their tier 1 counterparts.
That is a problem that needs to be fixed, nerf tier 2 BCs.
CFW (Certified Forum Warrior)
I kill people ingame too.
Originally by: CCP Tuxford
I prefer dew over pepsi. I prefer beer over most things. Damn now I want beer.
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Captain Schmungles
Caldari
Freelancing Corp
Confederation of Independent Corporations
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Posted - 2007.06.17 19:47:00 -
[20]
Of course, the advantage to flying a HAC is that your sig radius remains that of a cruiser, and so you are not nearly as vulnerable to cruise missiles are you are in a battlecruiser, but you have far better native resists than a battlecruiser. That being said, some HACs could use some love.
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Anniina Johtotahti
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Posted - 2007.06.17 20:52:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Ryysa
Mh, muninn is quite fine imo.
Graph here.
Now make graph where you try to hit skilled IC pilot approaching you with angle. With Muninn, 720mm Arties and Tremor youll get flat line at 0dps mark unless you get wrecking and even thats not enough to down IC.
Yup, IMHO that graph doesnt reflect real combat situation at all.
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Bentula
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Posted - 2007.06.17 21:57:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Ryysa
Mh, muninn is quite fine imo.
Graph here.
Tbh this graph surprised me and made me look into zealot vs. muninn for sniping. I was quite surprised how much the zealot outperforms the muninn.
Even with the tracking bonus the zealot will have superior tracking, damage and same optimal range. It also has a higher scan resolution and lower sig aswell as higher speed.
What are the minnie traits again?
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Setana Manoro
Gallente
Firefly Inc.
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Posted - 2007.06.17 22:40:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Setana Manoro on 17/06/2007 22:40:36
Originally by: Bentula
Edited by: Bentula on 17/06/2007 22:22:56
Originally by: Ryysa
Mh, muninn is quite fine imo.
Graph here.
Tbh this graph surprised me and made me look into zealot vs. muninn for sniping. I was quite surprised how much the zealot outperforms the muninn.
Even with the tracking bonus the zealot will have superior tracking, damage and same optimal range. It also has a higher scan resolution and lower sig aswell as higher speed.
What are the minnie traits again?
Edit: That graph cant be correct btw. Base damage mod of of HL II is 0.6, for the 720mm its 0.46, so even with 5 guns instead of 4 you get less damage from the arty.
Another thing you will love with the Zealot sniping is the fact that the ROF on Heavy Beams will be something in the order of 2.3-2.4s with good skills, while for Muninn with 720's is something like 6-7s. In scenario's where you engage many small targets or where your snipers can alpha an enemy BS, this is actually ... very nice. :)
Muninn can literally alpha ceptors that are foolish enough to keep transversal 0 though. :)
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Adopt a goon today, goons need lub and support too. Do you want him out in the cold, starving ? |
Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.06.17 22:49:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Aramendel on 17/06/2007 22:49:48
Originally by: Anniina Johtotahti
Now make graph where you try to hit skilled IC pilot approaching you with angle...
The point of the graph was the performance vs the hurricane.
If you add tracking into it it will if anything give you better results in favour of the muninn since it has a tracking bonus.
Originally by: Bentula
Even with the tracking bonus the zealot will have superior tracking, damage and same optimal range. It also has a higher scan resolution and lower sig aswell as higher speed.
Uhm.. are you colorblind? The muninn and zealot have identical dps.
And for ranges below 60k you can add 100 dps on the muninn since it has unlike the zealot a dronebay.
Trackingwise there is little difference between both, the muninn will have 0.03025 and the zealot 0.033.
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errorist
Caldari
Free Mercenaries Union
FATAL Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.17 22:58:00 -
[25]
Originally by: tarin adur
Yeah,Most HAC have become obsolete with the introduction of Tier 2 BC
Myrm > Ishtar
what makes you say that ? if ishtar and myrm had a showdown the ishtar would win, cause it has hac resistances, ok there the myrm has its armor rep bonus,, ishtar has spare drones.. so i kills myrm drones and bbq¦s it :P or it might just be the booze talking :P
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Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.06.17 23:00:00 -
[26]
The myrs higher base hitpoints and higher regeneration rate easily make up for the HAC resistance. And it has higher dps.
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Kulmid
Nubs.
D-L
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Posted - 2007.06.17 23:14:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Aramendel
The myrs higher base hitpoints and higher regeneration rate easily make up for the HAC resistance. And it has higher dps.
People fly Myrms that aren't nos fitted?
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Success is the time between when you do something, and when you tell a woman what you did.
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Jouno
0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.06.17 23:21:00 -
[28]
They should change the missile bonus to a 5% optimal range tbh. The tracking bonus should definitely stay
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Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.06.18 01:26:00 -
[29]
Uhh.. which missile bonus?
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Ryysa
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.06.18 05:39:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Ryysa on 18/06/2007 05:39:17
Originally by: Anniina Johtotahti
Originally by: Ryysa
Mh, muninn is quite fine imo.
Graph here.
Now make graph where you try to hit skilled IC pilot approaching you with angle. With Muninn, 720mm Arties and Tremor youll get flat line at 0dps mark unless you get wrecking and even thats not enough to down IC.
Yup, IMHO that graph doesnt reflect real combat situation at all.
You fail eve.
Clearly shows that when you include transversal etc, muninn actually does MORE dps on average than a hurricane (and that upto a longer range). Meaning Hurricane's dps flatlines much earlier.
Also, at 600m/s transversal, muninn has almost 2x higher chance to hit than hurricane...
Got Alpha?
DPS Graph #2
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