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Maud Dib
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Posted - 2004.01.16 13:19:00 -
[1]
that the idea to make people agree on a war before it can be fought is gone. Was it a bad dream? Maybe all the guns in empire space will disappear.
After this the only recourse you will have against the furbearers will be to steal their ore and MWD ram them while they are mining.
No one playing this game should be against PvP because it was on the box when you bought it that there was fighting. If you don't like PvP and you bought the game knowing that there is PvP then live with it.
As to the people who say pirates use it to "grief" players. There is a limit to corp wars so they can't use it to a great degree and most pirates live in low sec anyway because of sec rating issues. The people it will effect are normal corps with issues with another normal corp.
Not to mention the idea that you have to agree to fight a war is just insane form a believability stand point.
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Miso
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Posted - 2004.01.16 13:24:00 -
[2]
I kinda agree with this. It could be the end for alot of players.
Miso x
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Dead
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ElCoCo
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Posted - 2004.01.16 13:35:00 -
[3]
 Quote:
that the idea to make people agree on a war before it can be fought is gone. Was it a bad dream? Maybe all the guns in empire space will disappear.
After this the only recourse you will have against the furbearers will be to steal their ore and MWD ram them while they are mining.
No one playing this game should be against PvP because it was on the box when you bought it that there was fighting. If you don't like PvP and you bought the game knowing that there is PvP then live with it.
As to the people who say pirates use it to "grief" players. There is a limit to corp wars so they can't use it to a great degree and most pirates live in low sec anyway because of sec rating issues. The people it will effect are normal corps with issues with another normal corp.
Not to mention the idea that you have to agree to fight a war is just insane form a believability stand point.
No more war slot limit is what Tomb answered to my question
Good thing but....
He should keep them in to make it possible to have non concensual wars... it really sux this way.
Just make agreed-upon wars unlimited.
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Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2004.01.16 13:42:00 -
[4]
Quote:
No one playing this game should be against PvP because it was on the box when you bought it that there was fighting.
OPTIONAL fighting. If you bought the game thinking you had an absolute right to fight anyone you wanted whether they liked it or not ... well, live with it, you were wrong.
_______
"Soon" is an ancient Icelandic word meaning "some time before the next Ice Age." |
Miso
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Posted - 2004.01.16 13:45:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Miso on 16/01/2004 13:46:03
Without conflict, Eve would be a mining simulation.
Wars drive economy and drive storylines. PvP is essential to this game, regardless of those who want to sit in a belt all day ripping scord.
If your corp gets a war declared against it and you don't want to fight, form an alliance with a corp that will. Or hire mercs. There are always options.
Wars are good.
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Dead
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Maud Dib
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Posted - 2004.01.16 13:49:00 -
[6]
Quote:
Quote:
No one playing this game should be against PvP because it was on the box when you bought it that there was fighting.
OPTIONAL fighting. If you bought the game thinking you had an absolute right to fight anyone you wanted whether they liked it or not ... well, live with it, you were wrong.
hmm I may be wrong but I don't remember it saying optional. I will look at the box when I get home. Seriously though if you want no chance of having to fight at all why not just buy the Sims?
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Toulak
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Posted - 2004.01.16 13:50:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Toulak on 16/01/2004 13:56:39
Quote:
OPTIONAL fighting. If you bought the game thinking you had an absolute right to fight anyone you wanted whether they liked it or not ... well, live with it, you were wrong.
So all the industrial corps have to do is, dont f. off anyone stronger than them, and its all hunky dory.
Seems to me (Reading from the CSM the other day) that the person that brought this up about consensual wars, had someone annihilating them while they were trying to mine or whatever. How about you dont f. off anyone thats bigger and more powerful than you instead of whining that the other corp is now laying the smackdown.
I also liked the way they stated "it allows griefers to go around and attack who they want when they want, and distrupts our gameplay" followed by the usual "loadsa people are leaving due to it" which isnt true (noticed the avg. numbers online going up?)
I really dont see corps like m0o and c0w going around declaring war on industrial corps to grief them. Theyre playing with the alliances atm and dont need a war slot for that.
Basically it was a corp that is being slapped in a corp war, and wanted to bring the idea forward to put a stop to it. There is no reason to change the war declaration atm, and if it changes to consensual wars then a hell of a lot of fun is going to disappear from the game, being able to declare war on someone thats f'ing you off is fun, and a great way to get revenge rather than call them names back.
I didnt see Bush ask ****** if it was ok to attack them did you? 
Edit - oh my god S.a.d.d.a.m was filtered out.. wtf?!?!
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Gan Howorth
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Posted - 2004.01.16 13:55:00 -
[8]
Suggestion for monetary requirement for initiating hostilities and scope for economic warfare. (After Athule's post for the word weary)
Suggestion
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Moph
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Posted - 2004.01.16 13:56:00 -
[9]
Quote:
Not to mention the idea that you have to agree to fight a war is just insane form a believability stand point.
Totally agree. It would be the worst move made by CCP ever!
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Prophecy
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Posted - 2004.01.16 13:57:00 -
[10]
If TomB's suggested mechanism were implemented, but allowing non-consentual wars, it would remove the last refuge for the new player and small corps. That's a problem, and I hope that CCP can look past the whinging to understand the damage this would cause to the game. (After the recent CA news debacle it's beginning to look as though vote-by-wailing is the effective practice in this game)
Ultimately, I believe that some mechanism needs to eventually exist for non-consentual wars. But it should be very limited as well as very expensive for the attacking side. It has to be possible for new players to compete successfully, and unlimited non-consentual wars would erase the protection of empire space.
But the mechanism needs to be carefully considered, to prevent the circumstances of megacorps leaning on starter corps, or of pirate corps leaning on lawful corps. (or all corps) Not a knee-jerk reaction to the complaining of players who seem to lack the intellectual capacity to consider the big picture.
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KIAHicks
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Posted - 2004.01.16 14:14:00 -
[11]
Quote:
hmm I may be wrong but I don't remember it saying optional. I will look at the box when I get home. Seriously though if you want no chance of having to fight at all why not just buy the Sims?
Anyone want to know what made me pick eve rather than all the other mmorpg's out there? The ability to fight anyone. Ok, so eve has n00b corps that you can't touch in empire space. But then which serious players would really want to be in a n00b corp all their lives? Plus I'm sure ccp could make changes that would prevent this from been a problem.
Most people moved into empire space with the release of castor. The only way to fight them was via wars. Now with wars been removed, why would those in empire running tech 2 missions even consider allowing you to go to war with them?
I agree with Maud and all the others on this one. Don't make wars consensual. Or at least provide a few non-consensual slots.
But I do like the idea of alliance wars, just don't make everything consensual. :)
Keenon: "After sitting in the system for FIVE hours without even a (go away)"...
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Maud Dib
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Posted - 2004.01.16 14:16:00 -
[12]
Quote:
If TomB's suggested mechanism were implemented, but allowing non-consentual wars, it would remove the last refuge for the new player and small corps. That's a problem, and I hope that CCP can look past the whinging to understand the damage this would cause to the game. (After the recent CA news debacle it's beginning to look as though vote-by-wailing is the effective practice in this game)
Ultimately, I believe that some mechanism needs to eventually exist for non-consentual wars. But it should be very limited as well as very expensive for the attacking side. It has to be possible for new players to compete successfully, and unlimited non-consentual wars would erase the protection of empire space.
But the mechanism needs to be carefully considered, to prevent the circumstances of megacorps leaning on starter corps, or of pirate corps leaning on lawful corps. (or all corps) Not a knee-jerk reaction to the complaining of players who seem to lack the intellectual capacity to consider the big picture.
Sorry but it is impossible to declare war on the starter corps so that's not valid. As for smaller corps it's kind of hard to fight a war with a small corp because they can just move around and it's hard to find them. Not to mention all the ways someone can avoid combat.
I'm not saying that there shouldn't be a way to keep people from griefing n00bs out of the game. However extending that same protection to corps that have been around a while is crazy.
A better idea would be to put a timer on entering very high sec systems. As in after you have been in the game for six weeks you can't go into .8 systems and above. It would protect n00bs and also stop large well established corps from strip mining n00b areas.
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Nemesis I
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Posted - 2004.01.16 14:16:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Nemesis I on 16/01/2004 14:17:50
I agree it would be a bad move but...
Combat is very limited in my opinion - Its closest comparison is a mec game where you fit mods prior to the fight.
But the difference is a mec game does rely on you being skilful... Unless eve sprouts a*****pit we can sit in, and a crosshair, it will never be a pvp game as such..
Eve is to each player what they want to be..
IĘd do the story of the bloke fishing in UOL but you all know it!
Nem
good god filter - c o c k p i t !!!!!!
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Lord Guerdo
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Posted - 2004.01.16 14:41:00 -
[14]
Quote:
As in after you have been in the game for six weeks you can't go into .8 systems and above. It would protect n00bs and also stop large well established corps from strip mining n00b areas.
Not a good idea, that would kill off any player driven economy if the experienced players couldnt get into 0.8 +space.
But I agree that consentual war is probably one of the most rediculous ideas.
I reserve the right ( If i was a leader of a corp) to declare war on whomever i like, in the description in the manual, it states that you can declare war on XCorp to claim territory, trade routes, money, ships.
So if this does get implemented, its yet another case of bowing to the whiners of the community, Im now going to pay a mercenary corp to delcare war on the corporation who whinged in the CSM chat and cause this corp as much trouble as possible ( Notice how i didnt say grief =))
Lord Guerdo
Biomass Cartel
I mean c'mon, just think about it. What would make more sense then the 3 most hated alliances teaming up to lay waste to the people they all hate anyways? CA is already allied with PA, and TPS lies between the two alliances. Natural allies to be sure. But it's not just that, all but PA (and even some of them) have adopted a "stfu and die, or come and fight us, we don't give a **** what you think or do" philosophy, as well as a PvP Kill everyone not friend kind of mentality. These are the people in eve that kill or convert, the ones dedicated to the death of others, because history, circumstance, and the rest of eve have driven then to do so (except TPS, who are just cool ass pirates ). |
Maud Dib
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Posted - 2004.01.16 14:57:00 -
[15]
Quote:
Quote:
As in after you have been in the game for six weeks you can't go into .8 systems and above. It would protect n00bs and also stop large well established corps from strip mining n00b areas.
Not a good idea, that would kill off any player driven economy if the experienced players couldnt get into 0.8 +space.
But I agree that consentual war is probably one of the most rediculous ideas.
I reserve the right ( If i was a leader of a corp) to declare war on whomever i like, in the description in the manual, it states that you can declare war on XCorp to claim territory, trade routes, money, ships.
So if this does get implemented, its yet another case of bowing to the whiners of the community, Im now going to pay a mercenary corp to delcare war on the corporation who whinged in the CSM chat and cause this corp as much trouble as possible ( Notice how i didnt say grief =))
Lord Guerdo
Biomass Cartel
If you can stand the irony of Biomass and a Jericho pilot working together I would be more than glad to hep out with that.
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Arthur Guinness
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Posted - 2004.01.16 15:27:00 -
[16]
non consentual wars in empire space aren't a solution.
imo it's ok that you can't be forced into pvp if you stay in 0.5+.
what has to be changed is the profit you can make in those systems. basically, there shouldn't be anything in 0.5 and higher sec systems that is worth fighting over.
So bigger corps are forced into low sec empire and 0.0, then they'll have to build up military strength anyway, or hire merc corps.
real pvp is in 0.0 anyway, as concord is being exploited in 0.5+.
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Chai N'Dorr
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Posted - 2004.01.16 15:37:00 -
[17]
Freelancer... dead profession, join a Corp
Smuggler... never was an option
Trader... no, sorry not anymore
And well... this new feature will kill another profession in this game:
Mercenaries
Bad, bad... BAD idea this new War thing.
(like the Alliance thing, but think the escalating Wars that'll happen through)
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Tease
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Posted - 2004.01.16 15:42:00 -
[18]
Quote:
Sorry but it is impossible to declare war on the starter corps so that's not valid. As for smaller corps it's kind of hard to fight a war with a small corp because they can just move around and it's hard to find them. Not to mention all the ways someone can avoid combat.
True, however, it *is* possible to identify who's mining or travelling in an indy in empire space, seeing how many players are in the corp these players belong to and tell if they've been playing for any amount of time.
If a single griefer or a small griefer corp decides to, they can declare war on these tiny, 'noob' corps, destroy them on the spot, end the war and then move on the next opportunity with zero loss in security status.
Don't pretend this isn't happening. I'm not talking about the nonsense that was presented in the CSM, I'm talking about what's really going on in the game. All the damn CSM did was give the wannabe greifers the tip they needed for "legitimately hunting" in Empire space.
The current system is exploitable, and adds nothing to the game in regards to RP or PvP.
-----------------------------------------
[2003.12.17 06:35:20] Corwin > Orvolle is .4? Doesn't that mean that it's
less than .5 ? and isn't .5 what starts the danger level?
[2003.12.30 07:15:50] Corwin > Tech 2, IE expanded cargo holds I, MIning
lasers 2, etc.... TL2 is being released all around you
[2003.12.30 07:21:20] Corwin > tech 2 is released to players. Some players
are busy researching the BPs before building stuff. Others are sitting on
the BPs making copies to make money off of them that way |
Maud Dib
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Posted - 2004.01.16 15:46:00 -
[19]
Quote:
Quote:
Sorry but it is impossible to declare war on the starter corps so that's not valid. As for smaller corps it's kind of hard to fight a war with a small corp because they can just move around and it's hard to find them. Not to mention all the ways someone can avoid combat.
True, however, it *is* possible to identify who's mining or travelling in an indy in empire space, seeing how many players are in the corp these players belong to and tell if they've been playing for any amount of time.
If a single griefer or a small griefer corp decides to, they can declare war on these tiny, 'noob' corps, destroy them on the spot, end the war and then move on the next opportunity with zero loss in security status.
Don't pretend this isn't happening. I'm not talking about the nonsense that was presented in the CSM, I'm talking about what's really going on in the game. All the damn CSM did was give the wannabe greifers the tip they needed for "legitimately hunting" in Empire space.
The current system is exploitable, and adds nothing to the game in regards to RP or PvP.
Sure it is expoitable but wouldn't you say that it would be better to ban the exploiters than to break the system? Not being able to declare a legit war if the other side doesn't want it adds what to RP or PvP?
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2004.01.16 15:53:00 -
[20]
"If a single griefer or a small griefer corp decides to, they can declare war on these tiny, 'noob' corps, destroy them on the spot, end the war and then move on the next opportunity with zero loss in security status.
Don't pretend this isn't happening. I'm not talking about the nonsense that was presented in the CSM, I'm talking about what's really going on in the game."
... Some recent examples, please? Five will do, should be no problem if you are as knowledgeadble on what's really going in the game as you make it sound...
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Tease
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Posted - 2004.01.16 16:28:00 -
[21]
Quote:
... Some recent examples, please? Five will do, should be no problem if you are as knowledgeadble on what's really going in the game as you make it sound...
Ask the mods to stop deleting the threads describing this happening.. I can't give you specific names and times because I simply don't remember them all, and there's no longer anything existing for me to link to/quote from.
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[2003.12.17 06:35:20] Corwin > Orvolle is .4? Doesn't that mean that it's
less than .5 ? and isn't .5 what starts the danger level?
[2003.12.30 07:15:50] Corwin > Tech 2, IE expanded cargo holds I, MIning
lasers 2, etc.... TL2 is being released all around you
[2003.12.30 07:21:20] Corwin > tech 2 is released to players. Some players
are busy researching the BPs before building stuff. Others are sitting on
the BPs making copies to make money off of them that way |
Toulak
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Posted - 2004.01.16 16:32:00 -
[22]
Quote:
Quote:
... Some recent examples, please? Five will do, should be no problem if you are as knowledgeadble on what's really going in the game as you make it sound...
Ask the mods to stop deleting the threads describing this happening.. I can't give you specific names and times because I simply don't remember them all, and there's no longer anything existing for me to link to/quote from.
Why would the mods delete such threads, I doubt they break any rules if its a simple "So and so has declared war on us for what reason?"
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Tease
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Posted - 2004.01.16 16:33:00 -
[23]
Quote:
Sure it is expoitable but wouldn't you say that it would be better to ban the exploiters than to break the system? Not being able to declare a legit war if the other side doesn't want it adds what to RP or PvP?
That's be a great idea, if that were to actually happen. Right now it's the same old case of GMs not agreeing with each other on what's a bannable exploit or not(despite the fact that all threads started by people who have had this happen to them are deleted due to "explaining an exploit")..
Not to mention the idiotic "Stop doing that or we'll be forced to warn you about a warning and not actually do anything to stop you" procedure used in exploit complaints..
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[2003.12.17 06:35:20] Corwin > Orvolle is .4? Doesn't that mean that it's
less than .5 ? and isn't .5 what starts the danger level?
[2003.12.30 07:15:50] Corwin > Tech 2, IE expanded cargo holds I, MIning
lasers 2, etc.... TL2 is being released all around you
[2003.12.30 07:21:20] Corwin > tech 2 is released to players. Some players
are busy researching the BPs before building stuff. Others are sitting on
the BPs making copies to make money off of them that way |
Tease
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Posted - 2004.01.16 16:36:00 -
[24]
Quote:
Why would the mods delete such threads, I doubt they break any rules if its a simple "So and so has declared war on us for what reason?"
From what I've been told, and what's been mentioned in those 'the thread you were talking in has been modded' emails, they're being deleted because talking about exploits is against the rules. I'm thinking that's why they deleted the last CSM thread..
-----------------------------------------
[2003.12.17 06:35:20] Corwin > Orvolle is .4? Doesn't that mean that it's
less than .5 ? and isn't .5 what starts the danger level?
[2003.12.30 07:15:50] Corwin > Tech 2, IE expanded cargo holds I, MIning
lasers 2, etc.... TL2 is being released all around you
[2003.12.30 07:21:20] Corwin > tech 2 is released to players. Some players
are busy researching the BPs before building stuff. Others are sitting on
the BPs making copies to make money off of them that way |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2004.01.16 16:37:00 -
[25]
"Ask the mods to stop deleting the threads describing this happening.. I can't give you specific names and times because I simply don't remember them all, and there's no longer anything existing for me to link to/quote from."
... But not even one example?
I just ask because what you tell seems strange to me -- i check the global war declaration list quite often, to know what's going on... You'd think if there was indeed such big problem with certain griefers declaring official wars, destroying corporations and moving on, it'd be easy to spot as the war list would include many more entries per week than it currently does. o.O;
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Chai N'Dorr
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Posted - 2004.01.16 16:40:00 -
[26]
One Example:
Was a guy called "SecureSpaceKiller" with his own Corp who declared War on Mining Unlimited. One man Corp vs. big Corp, only reason was so he could attack people in Empire. No other reason existed... he even said so.
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Maud Dib
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Posted - 2004.01.16 16:40:00 -
[27]
Quote:
Quote:
Why would the mods delete such threads, I doubt they break any rules if its a simple "So and so has declared war on us for what reason?"
From what I've been told, and what's been mentioned in those 'the thread you were talking in has been modded' emails, they're being deleted because talking about exploits is against the rules. I'm thinking that's why they deleted the last CSM thread..
Is it possible that what you have been told is wrong? Is it also possible that the exploit claims were investigated and found to be false so the threads were deleted?
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Tease
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Posted - 2004.01.16 16:40:00 -
[28]
Quote:
I just ask because what you tell seems strange to me -- i check the global war declaration list quite often, to know what's going on... You'd think if there was indeed such big problem with certain griefers declaring official wars, destroying corporations and moving on, it'd be easy to spot as the war list would include many more entries per week than it currently does. o.O;
I wondered about that also because I couldn't see anything either.. perhaps it's only showing wars that are ongoing? or lasted longer than a certain amount of time? I don't know. I've asked in the Help channel how that works and have gotten no answers..
If I was in the CSM I'd ask there..
-----------------------------------------
[2003.12.17 06:35:20] Corwin > Orvolle is .4? Doesn't that mean that it's
less than .5 ? and isn't .5 what starts the danger level?
[2003.12.30 07:15:50] Corwin > Tech 2, IE expanded cargo holds I, MIning
lasers 2, etc.... TL2 is being released all around you
[2003.12.30 07:21:20] Corwin > tech 2 is released to players. Some players
are busy researching the BPs before building stuff. Others are sitting on
the BPs making copies to make money off of them that way |
Tease
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Posted - 2004.01.16 16:43:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Tease on 16/01/2004 16:44:57
Quote:
Is it possible that what you have been told is wrong? Is it also possible that the exploit claims were investigated and found to be false so the threads were deleted?
every single one of them? Including the CSM thread which was Stickied by Pann?
**edit** not to mention, I recieved 2 of those 'modded' emails when I participated in a couple of those threads. both clearly stated they were removed for exploit-discussion.
-----------------------------------------
[2003.12.17 06:35:20] Corwin > Orvolle is .4? Doesn't that mean that it's
less than .5 ? and isn't .5 what starts the danger level?
[2003.12.30 07:15:50] Corwin > Tech 2, IE expanded cargo holds I, MIning
lasers 2, etc.... TL2 is being released all around you
[2003.12.30 07:21:20] Corwin > tech 2 is released to players. Some players
are busy researching the BPs before building stuff. Others are sitting on
the BPs making copies to make money off of them that way |
Toulak
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Posted - 2004.01.16 16:44:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Toulak on 16/01/2004 16:47:05
Doing a bit of detective work  , noticed that Dawnstar (Who was the person making up the stories of how lots of corps are going around griefing non pvp corps in the CSM chat) is part of the Kiroshi group corp.
On the 9th of Jan, SPVD declared war against them. I doubt very much if SPVD declared war just to grief them, thats not their style.
No doubt there are reasons behind space invaders declaring war on the Kiroshi group.
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