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Shadarle	Posted - 2007.11.09 19:52:00 - [1] Communication communication communication, it all comes down to that. That's the difference between the great IPO's and the ones that get lots of complaints. As to the problems Wylker seems to be having turning a profit, if we all turn back to page 1 of this thread Ionia asked right away if it was smart getting into capital production when this IPO started. The same was asked of LV. Now both of these IPO's have had problems earning the profits they hoped to. Investors can't hold Wylker responsible for poor performance as they were the ones choosing to invest in a capital production IPO when they were warned about it being a shaky time to do so. They can, however, hold him responsible for poor communication and not spending enough time working for them. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.11.10 06:08:00 - [2] Originally by: Ricdic So in other words, Fastlearner as a single individual is incompetent for loosing his mothership. FuryBank is not as they just provided a loan. But then one could also say that LaVista is not the incompetent one, he just offered the business. Those who invested in him should be the incompetent ones for investing in an industry that had a higher chance of failure. I would say people who invested in any of these cap production ventures was foolish, perhaps not incompetent. It was clear there was no way the market would sustain itself for long as it was already dying a bad death when these IPO's launched. Several of us said as much through personal experience in the market. I personally sold out my own capital production capabilities just as these guys were all starting up because my profits weren't high enough back then. But I'd say I don't quite see how ignoring clear evidence and trends about the capital market and losing a ship in PvP are comparable at all. First of all, FL's loss of his Mothership has no real relevance to his IPO at all. He took a loan out with the bank he runs... and as long as he pays back that loan according to the rules of the bank that is all there is to it, correct? What he does with that money is not anyones business unless he violates his loan rules. He could give it all away to strangers if he chooses to. In any case, I still have the max possible in FuryBank and see no reason to withdraw it. Thankfully I have nothing in the venture being discussed here. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.11.10 07:22:00 - [3] Originally by: Ricdic See, some of those bonds you guys are seeing now, some of the biggest ones out there, do deal in capital production. Sure, they are disguised as bonds (so basically hiding all internal activities). So should we call all of their CEO's incompetent by default? A bond is a bond, we don't care what profit the person makes as long as they pay out as they stated they would when releasing the bond. I don't care if Ionia is making capital ships with the money in FRPB or speculating on datacores, all I care about is that the payments on the bond are made. But if someone says they are going to do something specific and pay out a percentage profits then it is quite important that the person understand what they are getting into. It is also important that they don't mislead their investors with false estimates on profits. I personally think issuing a bond is the smartest course for someone who has a good way to make a lot of profit but doesn't want to disclose it nor share those profits. But in order to issue a bond you have to be trusted, so you run an IPO or two first to show you can be trusted and that you're a good business person. I would agree LV shouldn't be compared to someone who goes MIA for stretches and has yet to pay dividends. The only comparison in their combined lack of judgment in starting such a venture when they did. It ends there though as LV has actually tried to turn lemons into lemonade. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.11.11 02:32:00 - [4] Originally by: Kitex From the in-game mail list Wylker set up for this IPO, in response to my request for more information, Wylker's corp-mate Trixie Baggz had this to say: Quote: Hi Kitex Due to the amazing**gotry I have seen from you and certain other people in this mailing list I have advised Wylker to take your money and tell you to ** off. God I hate you, die of aids. Kisses and Lollipops xoxoxoxoxox Now that is class! Anytime someone who runs an IPO refuses to post on the forums you know things are going bad. It's not like he doesn't know there are posts, he just refuses to post here. Sorry guys, looks like this is heading more towards scam every time more info comes out. If he is too far gone to even make a post then I don't see any chance he will have the character to liquidate. If he cared about his rep he'd have made some posts here to try and salvage his rep. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.11.12 02:33:00 - [5] Originally by: FastLearner Yeah, there could be a perfectly valid reason for being active on ohter forums but not here - would be a shame to call him incompetent when maybe his computer just blocked all eve-related IPs or something and there was nothing he could do. Most likely he just had some selective glitch: and it would be horrbily unfair to claim that his lack of posting here was anything other than an involuntary problem casued by some technical issue. You know, this reminds me of someone else who runs an IPO... Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.11.18 06:45:00 - [6] I don't understand what could take Wylker so long to decide on a course of action. Either he can make money selling capitals still or he can't. If he can't then he should liquidate ASAP and pay out all the money in divs. If he can then he should post and state that he can. This is really all there is to it... it's simple. If he tries to continue the business but doing things other than producing capital ships then he is in breach of his IPO. His complete and utter cowardice in avoiding this thread is pitiful, the last person he should be trying to emulate in running an IPO is Stins. But the only thing worse than him not posting so far is for him to continue not posting in the future. Every day he hides and cowers in a corner the worse it gets for him. Yet I would be willing to bet he will continue to hide... clearly he is quite afraid of a forum lashing, as if he isn't getting one already. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.11.19 01:02:00 - [7] Originally by: Treelox Although it would send an excellent message to people that you better make sure you know who you vouch for before you do it. Heck, I'd possibly kick in some money just to reinforce this message even though I didn't invest in the original IPO at all and haven't lost a thing. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.11.19 15:42:00 - [8] Edited by: Shadarle on 19/11/2007 15:43:38 Originally by: Eve-Online Forums - Last 2 Posts By Wylker Last 15 Posts - Edited by: Wylker on 19/11/2007 15:24:58 Hi!Eve-O forum ban is lifted, and I managed to proxy in fr ...19/11/2007 15:24:00 - OP: Welcome to a year ago. ...13/11/2007 22:03:00 Originally by: Wylker Eve-O forum ban is lifted I don't think the best way to restore trust is to start off with a lie. Originally by: Wylker I understand that people are upset, heck I would be too. I'd apologize for the lack of communication but I'd have to amend it to not be directed at the people who are posting their nerd-rage in this thread (please hire the MC to attack us btw). You know people are mad, but you won't apologize to anyone who actually expressed how mad they were. Makes total sense... Originally by: Wylker I've managed to survive huge amounts of peer pressure from Trixie to steal everyone's isk and all the assets are still safely in 2 stations in high and low sec. Wow, you are a beacon of virtue! You managed to overcome peer pressure to do something which you swore you'd never do! What an amazingly strong person you are. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.11.19 16:24:00 - [9] Originally by: Wylker I'm so glad I posted today, I was hoping to get trolled a bit before lunch. On a side note, whats with all the isk seller spam sigs? I didn't even realize it was different people until just now. LOL. Calling 100% justified annoyance and criticism trolling... you are really on fire today! The reason to show you posted on the 13th was to show that you could have posted in this thread on the 13th as well. But you didn't. You chose to engage in "nerd-rage" on CAOD and get yourself banned instead of informing your investors of the status of your IPO. Then, you chose not to reply in your mailing list to questions being raised. You also chose not to have a friend or corp mate post a message for you. You also had a friend of yours coming out and stating you should scam everyone. Then you have the temerity to claim people are trolling by holding your feet to the fire? LOL Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.11.25 19:11:00 - [10] Just when I thought the fireworks were over. The vote just makes it clear that a buyback should be offered... as very few people would take it up apparently. Right Wylker? Unless you fixed that vote somehow, you would have very little to lose in offering a buyback... but you would build up a LOT more trust in doing so. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.11.25 19:28:00 - [11] Originally by: Ricdic I want to see how many shares were voted with as that should give a good indication if you voted or not I did note that this information was not provided... found that the most telling part. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.11.26 08:10:00 - [12] Originally by: Shae Laurel Originally by: Kitex The results are in! Continue trying to make Carrier/MS production work. 83.0097491876 % (83.0097491876/100.0) Switch to T2 Freighters, Rorquals, and new T2 ship production. 5.84117990167 % (5.84117990167/100.0) Liquidate and return as much isk as possible. 11.1490709108 % (11.1490709108/100.0) My reaction was disbelief. No escape. To my knowledge there are 4000 public shares, making the voting shares ratio, IF everyone voted, like this: A: 3320 shares (83%) B: 234 shares (5.84%) C: 446 shares (11.15%) I know I voted with 100 shares on option C... what did you guys vote? Of course a scrrendump would prove better than my math here. /Shae This is actually a very good idea, if people list their # of shares and how they voted you can easily determine if Wylker voted or not. If you come close to that 446 number for C (assuming the math was right), then you know he did. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.11.26 08:20:00 - [13] Originally by: Kitex which would seem to establish that Wylker or someone with access to his shares did indeed vote with some or all of them. But honestly, we already knew this... it's just the formality of trying to prove it at this stage. I sure hope we don't get another disappearing act now... Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.11.26 18:40:00 - [14] I think there should be a dedicated FL v Ricdic thread on the forum, so we can always look in the same place for the latest back and forth. Is it time to take bets on if we'll see a return of Wylker to the thread or not? I'm thinking he will return... only because he's close to pulling off this little shindig of his. No reason for him to run away now when he almost has succeeded. But betting against his return may not be such a high-risk position... Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.11.27 03:47:00 - [15] Edited by: Shadarle on 27/11/2007 03:48:50 Why not just offer a buyback to anyone who wants it right now. Have people send you eve-mails with their # of shares and then once you've added up all the shares that are to be bought back you can liquidate enough to cover it and leave yourself with the rest of your BPO's to continue on. This way all people who want out can get out. You can then put the shares up for sale for anyone who wishes to jump in now. I don't see any reason this shouldn't be possible. Plus your IPO specifically said you would offer a buyback now. It seems you should be offering it and if you refuse to offer the buyback you're only going to have even more disgruntled investors. For your own sake it is easier to get rid of the disgruntled investors, gets them out of your hair, lets you continue on with the others. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.11.27 07:29:00 - [16] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: cosmoray Scenario 1. If Wylker didn't vote his 8001 shares, so 4000 shares voted: 1. 83.0097491876% means that 3320.39 shares voted for option A 2. 5.84117990167% means that 233.6472 shares voted for option B 3. 11.1490709108% means that 445.9628 shares voted for option C OK who has been voting with SHARE FRACTIONS. Scenario 2. If Wylker did vote his 8001 shares. 1. 83.0097491876% means that 9962 shares voted for option A 2. 5.84117990167% means that 701 shares voted for option B 3. 11.1490709108% means that 1338 shares voted for option C This actually seems like a very good method of detecting how many shares voted... It is actually quite interesting that no one else thought this up previously. It's quite obvious and seems to make mathematical sense. Time to go back through some old threads to check some votes I think. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.11.27 18:35:00 - [17] Edited by: Shadarle on 27/11/2007 18:35:13 Originally by: Matalino Originally by: Kitex In fairness, it's an insignificant detail to 99.9% of the EVE populace. True, I would not have expected many people in say General Discussion to know this, but I would think that this community with all the votes and polling that is done would have known that. In any case, everyone reading this thread knows: and knowing is half the battle. I've never issued a share vote myself and I've only seen them posted about 2-3 times in the past, usually just percentages are listed. Only 1 other vote was listed differently. I want to go back and dig up the CRA vote on revealing shareholder names now though. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.11.27 20:40:00 - [18] Originally by: Wylker Originally by: May Shiko you offer a buyback as an exit strategy for people who are not interested in the future of this IPO. The problem with this is that there can not be a partial buyback. If I liquidate (at a loss) assets to allow people to have shares repurchased, it will invalidate the ability of the program to make ANY returns at ANY point. I have made this point before and going forward I am likely going to not respond to points that have been beaten to death. Please read the entire thread and make suggestions based on new ideas or building upon points that have been raised already. It is very difficult to have intelligent discourse when we lose the thread of the discussion. There we go, we now have a definitive answer to the question of if he'll offer a buyback. No. Not sure where that leaves all the people who want the hell out... but at least they now know they are stuck. A good question to Wylker is this though. What % of people have to want liquidation for you to do it? 25%, 50%, 75%, 100%? The vote is worthless if we don't have a pre-determined number to look for to know what the vote means. Otherwise any result could be offset by a "Well, that isn't high enough so we'll continue on". Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.11.27 21:25:00 - [19] I just wonder what the theory is... that profits will go up AFTER the nerf hits next patch? If there was a time to make a profit it was up until the last few weeks. Before that you could make a profit (albeit a fairly small one), but if you haven't made a single ISK in 3-4 months then you honestly should just give up and liquidate. You should tons of copies of all your BPO's to sell which would be worth at least a billion isk over all this time if not a lot more. I'm baffled if even something as easy and quick as running copies wasn't done... when you clearly weren't producing anything anyhow. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.11.28 03:50:00 - [20] Except he isn't riding into the sunset with the money like the bank robbers of old would, he is sitting down right in the middle of everyone and refusing to give it back. He's probably just sitting there because of the size of the balls he must have to do it leaves him unable to move. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.11.30 16:41:00 - [21] It just amazes me that Wylker doesn't do one of two things. 1. Buy back the 11% of the shares that people want to sell out, then reissue them to the 89% who still want to be in. 2. Admit he will never pay a div and is scamming. The only excuses for not making any profit up to now are scam or incompetence. You can decide for yourself which is worse. Make a choice Wylker. If you want your name to be worth anything then offer the buyback. If you're afraid everyone will take it so you'll have no money to continue then that just proves the point that it is time to liquidate. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.12.02 17:33:00 - [22] Originally by: SiJira Originally by: Wylker Looks like the vote is in, and with a little under 25% participation it is in favor of liquidation. So we'll get that going here. wylker dont get discouraged there are many people that would love to invest in you if you come right out with a new ipo right now and a solid business plan - i mean capital ships wont get nerfed again anytime soon I've got a bridge for sale... Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.12.21 20:53:00 - [23] The whole point of vouching for someone is that you are putting your reputation on the line if the other guy scams. You're saying that you trust the person and even though others do not know them well enough to trust them. This is usually done because your reputation is better than the person in questions. The reasoning is that reputation is worth a lot and loss of reputation is a serious anti-scamming method. If someone does not have a reputation to lose then it can be hard to raise capital... thus you get someone to vouch for them. The vouching person is now responsible if it turns into a scam. You shouldn't vouch for someone you don't truly trust, because as soon as you vouch for them it is as much your problem if they scam as it is scammers. It doesn't matter if the vouching person also gets scammed, they were part and parcel to the scam and thus are accessories. Their name has to be dragged through the dirt. If they wish to restore their good name they have to rectify the situation in some way as it was their fault the person was able to scam. If vouching does not work in this way then it is worthless. I personally think people should hold all those who vouched for Wylker responsible and they should be labeled as accessories. We have no way of knowing if they are co-conspirators or not, but they most definitely aided his scamming efforts even if unknowingly. I would highly suggest people think twice before vouching for anyone in the future unless you truly understand the consequences. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.12.22 01:51:00 - [24] Originally by: Riethe I mostly agree with you here Shad, but not entirely. I don't think it's right to go and say, "hey, we got screwed, this guy got screwed, but he told us Wylker was good stuff, so it's his fault too!" I think it's a lot more accurate to say, "Wylker screwed everyone here, and in the future, all the people that vouched for him will not ever influence my decisions again." All of this changes though, the moment that someone finds information that they were accomplices to all this. If they knew this was a scam and put their names up here to assist it, they're all equally accountable. I personally think it's entirely likely that he would show up here and say, "oh, no, guys, we said wylker was the bestest but the troofs is we didn't know." Who wouldn't try to do that to redeem themselves under pressure? So I am of the belief that this was a group activity and that they're just backing down or trying to clear some of their names. In your use of the word vouching is worthless. Unfortunately your use of the word is not the correct use of the word. Here is the definition: Quote: Verb Vouch - give personal assurance; guarantee; "Will he vouch for me?" A vouch is only worth anything if there is that guarantee behind it. Otherwise it is a hollow point because the voucher obviously doesn't trust the person enough to back them with their own money. That is very important to know. They trust them only as long as no money is on the line. That means nothing and if that is what they truly feel they should say so, if they go on the line and vouch for the person then they damn well better be willing to take the blame if the person turns out to be a scammer/thief. Ricdic explained it well, if you are going to put your name behind someone then you better be ready to stand up for your name otherwise your name means nothing. In this case the people who vouched for him should be called out and held accountable. The only people who can really do this are those who invested and got scammed, if they don't care enough about being scammed then the vouchers may get off the hook. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.12.22 07:50:00 - [25] You seem to have a problem accepting that words have definitions and meanings. If you vouch for someone you are guaranteeing they are not a scammer. If they turn a scammer you are the one left to pick up the pieces and make things right because you took that responsibility onto yourself. No one forced these people to vouch, they did it on their own and they should realize there are consequences for doing so. Vouching has a meaning and a purpose. Just because you don't believe in accountability doesn't mean others don't. You don't value your reputation, thus you sold it for 40 billion. Others value their reputation more than you do, so it may be a bit hard for you to understand the importance of vouching. But it only has value if people hold those who vouch for scammers responsible. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.12.26 20:49:00 - [26] Originally by: Shaki'h Brighthead So, what's going on? Can we hope our shares will be bought back? I bought 80 shares... but since I've been waiting for too long, I'm willing to sell them... Anyone interested? Thanks! Reading the thread is generally a smart thing to do before posting. This is a scam. You won't get a penny for them. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.01.03 18:37:00 - [27] Originally by: Rogue Vol I'm the only one who got their isk back from Wylker, therefore... therefore... You were in on the scam? Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.01.14 16:45:00 - [28] Originally by: Wylker Anyway. Heres the final word. This was never intended to be a scam, a combination of being really busy, losing interest, and the disappearance of some of my support led to this entire venture sitting on the back burner for a very long time. I had originally intended to liquidate and refund as much isk as possible but as of right now I have loaned out all the BPOs that I had to various parties and I'm not really sure when/if I'll get them back. So basically you lacked the skills/ability to run the IPO effectively and you lacked the morals/decency to do the right thing once you discovered your shortfalls. You aren't a scam, you're an inept person with no morals. Gotcha. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained

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