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Should we be forced to play honorably?

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Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2007.06.28 11:15:00 - [1] Edited by: Roy Batty68 on 28/06/2007 11:18:34 Had a discussion about Eve with a friend of mine recently and I'd like to try out an analogy on you guys that seemed to change my friend's outlook somewhat. United States revolutionary war. Eve = the minutemen and other forces of the revolutionaries The rest of the MMO world = the redcoats (brits) Back then it was "honorable" to line up on a battlefield and march in some orderly fasion, each force towards the other, and basically take turns firing into each others ranks. Of course this worked decently for the brits who were often better organized, equiped, and often held the numeric advantage. The colonists began using more guerilla tactics, using ambushes, hit and run, and other perhaps terrorist sort of strategies. The brits found this to be very distasteful and labeled the colonists as honorless whatevers. Not abiding by the gentlemen's rulebook, etc. So whatever, it worked and it only seems reasonable now in hindsight. And if someone today were to propose woodenly marching across a battlefield, taking turns firing into each other, they'd be laughed out of a job. Things have evolved and what was once honorable is now just stupid. So, how does this apply to Eve vs other MMOs? Well, in my mind, the rest of the MMO world and the players that are used to those other "not Eve" games are the redcoats. They are used to things being very well defined, such as we go over here to fight the enemies, we go over here when we don't feel like being bothered. To these sorts, Eve feels rather immature or honorless when they have a negative experience in the areas that, in their opinion, should be "safe". Or when gameplay of others does not meet their definition of proper. Eve on the other hand, is not immature or honorless so to speak. It has simply evolved past what people are currently used to. They expect very clear and concise rules of engagement in their game so that an "honorable" competition can occur. Eve blurs the lines and people are often uncomfortable with this. For example, BoB killing the D2 titan with a mole and micro sb. Alot of people don't consider this "fair play". So the question, "Should we be forced to play honorably?" is as much to that end as it is towards the highsec noob. Should Eve move itself towards what people are used to? Or should the players move themselves towards what Eve is (or might be)? As a matter of reference, I often cringe when people scream nerf to game mechanics that allow for what is often considered "dishonorable" play. I am a self appointed advocate for the scum of Eve, not because I have any vested interest in making isk via these things, but because variety is the spice of life. Complexity in the game is needed and wonderful. I would much rather see Eve keep evolving by empowering the players to police themselves. For instance, the scammer that never leaves Jita4-4. Most people would react by asking CCP to nerf Contracts in some way so that the scammers life is less and less possible. I, on the other hand, would much rather see that person made more accessible to the playerbase. Give us some way to take direct action against the scammer. The isk seller. The suicide ganker. Whatever. Don't nerf them, boost us. But I stray from the point. My basic premise being, people who react to game issues by asking for them to be made not possible are the redcoats of old. They feel righteous and honorable about their opinions on things, but they just don't realize that it is they themselves that have yet to evolve out of the old way of thinking. The new way of thinking would be to request more tools, more options. Honor isn't part of the equation. Freedom to play however you like is the key. Freedom for other players to take exception to your actions and act upon it, perhaps making you regret your choices. Time will tell if I'm a ***** baby or not, I suppose. But what do you guys think? ------------------- WE'RE SORRY, SOMETHING HAPPENED
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.06.28 11:19:00 - [2] Edited by: Crumplecorn on 28/06/2007 11:17:44 I heard the redcoats fought like that for a reason other than honor. For some reason it just worked better than any other tactic due to their weapons or something. I may be talking out of my ass though. Agree on the rest. - You keep using that word . . . I do not think it means what you think it means
Ulii	Posted - 2007.06.28 11:22:00 - [3] you seems to have a little simplified wiew of the american revoluton... that is about all i have to say
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.06.28 11:24:00 - [4] Originally by: Crumplecorn Edited by: Crumplecorn on 28/06/2007 11:17:44 I heard the redcoats fought like that for a reason other than honor. For some reason it just worked better than any other tactic due to their weapons or something. I may be talking out of my ass though. Agree on the rest. Indeed, the musket was a terrible weapon - I think the estimation was in the end maybe 1 in every 3000 shots actually hit the enemy, so you pretty much had to use a wall of fire in order to hit anything. I mean, that said, I suspect there was also a fair amount of ignorance on the part of military generals of the time but it wasn't like one man behind a rock was actually a huge threat and the reloading time meant suppressing fire like is used today was out of the question. Still, transpose me to the time and I'd say I'd still prefer to be behind that rock.
Fenren	Posted - 2007.06.28 11:26:00 - [5] Originally by: Crumplecorn Edited by: Crumplecorn on 28/06/2007 11:17:44 I heard the redcoats fought like that for a reason other than honor. For some reason it just worked better than any other tactic due to their weapons or something. I may be talking out of my ass though. Agree on the rest. They fought so because they used smooth bored guns. as almoust all the rest of the world, except the americans. the smooth bored ones didnt have such good accuracy, so instead they packed a lot of guns close to each other and fired on the same target. that way they usually hit with enough guns at a time. this tactic can still be seen in wars as late as WW1 (trench warfare) and in some aspects even non-german early WW2. Originally by: CCP Ginger Hello! Ships have crews, most pod controlled frigates do not, above that they have crews of varying sizes. Hope that helps.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.06.28 11:28:00 - [6] Originally by: Fenren they packed a lot of guns close to each other and fired on the same target Why does this sound so damn familiar? - You keep using that word . . . I do not think it means what you think it means
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2007.06.28 11:33:00 - [7] Originally by: Ulii you seems to have a little simplified wiew of the american revoluton... that is about all i have to say Well, it doesn't serve the analogy well with a full blown rendition. But it does serve, in perhaps an over-simplified form, to show how what was once considered the norm can be over taken by time and become quite obviously obsolete. ------------------- WE'RE SORRY, SOMETHING HAPPENED
TheEndofTheWorld	Posted - 2007.06.28 11:34:00 - [8] I stopped reading when you mentioned "United States revolutionary war" All non-americans will do the same probably.
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2007.06.28 11:37:00 - [9] Oh for the love of... Quit focusing on the history part. Focus people, focus. Sheesh, I should of used the Macarena as the "what was cool then is now pretty damn stupid" comparison. But yeah, it was the Kentucky long rifles that made a huge difference in the war. ------------------- WE'RE SORRY, SOMETHING HAPPENED
Anehra X-Fire	Posted - 2007.06.28 11:40:00 - [10] People cringe because of morale. An analogy to RL warfare is poor, several aspects/reasons to it, but basicly.. war = war. You kill people for whichever reason you have to kill them. There's no honour in killing people, ever, for whatever reason, it's just taking someones life and thus showing that you think higher of yourself. In some cases people agree with you, in others they don't. Either way; EVE is more or less anarchy, money talks. Concord doesnt have a morale. You pay them to wardec people and get rights to kill others. They're just keeping certain areas of space somewhat safe. RA almost died a long time ago but they survived (barely) with some POS spamming and log on/log off tactics. Most players back then considered this exploiting - today it's accepted as a viable way of waging war. EVE is just testing limits. Forced to fight honourable? Why, it's war. As long as we don't exploit game mechanics there shouldn't be a rule for dos and don'ts. Having a mole? Well many countries have a secret police, that usually operate both internally (local), as well as internationally. This is the last game to force any kind of 'honorable fighting' or put laws and order in. The very essence of EVE would die the second that happened. We already have our second life (clone) so there's really nothing to lose anyway. And it's a war. War means survival. War means taking down your opponent before you go down. War means cheating, using tactics to overcome your opponent in any means they would have problems countering. You cannot mix morale with war. Never. It's simply not possible. - Revelation II - "WE'RE SORRY, SOMETHING HAPPENED"

Fenren	Posted - 2007.06.28 11:45:00 - [11] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Fenren they packed a lot of guns close to each other and fired on the same target Why does this sound so damn familiar? we do it now too... but spread out the guns, so as the enemy cant focus on all of us. or it can be seen in the way the armament of the single units increases. a single soldier now packs what would be called a mashine gun in ww1 and a cannon in 1500. a tank packs an incredible ammount of power now compared to when they where introduced. (ww1 or ww2, depending on how you see it) Originally by: CCP Ginger Hello! Ships have crews, most pod controlled frigates do not, above that they have crews of varying sizes. Hope that helps.
lok'ee	Posted - 2007.06.28 11:46:00 - [12] Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld I stopped reading when you mentioned "United States revolutionary war" All non-americans will do the same probably. I'm American, and even I stopped reading there.
Malcanis High4Life Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.28 11:57:00 - [13] It's meaningless to do the right thing without the freedom to do wrong
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2007.06.28 11:58:00 - [14] Originally by: Anehra This is the last game to force any kind of 'honorable fighting' or put laws and order in. The very essence of EVE would die the second that happened. We already have our second life (clone) so there's really nothing to lose anyway. Exactly the sort of perspective that I'm comming from, but I think you skimmed through my post. I didn't mean to imply any sort of morality debate about war in general. In fact, forget the war references. People get scammed in Eve = many feel this isn't honorable, fair, proper, pick your adjective, gameplay People get suicide ganked = many feel this isn't honorable, fair, proper, pick your adjective, gameplay People use questionable tactics = many feel this isn't... etc, etc. Now, my general point was, this is a natural reaction given the other games out there and the expectations that have been set by them. The core issue is overcomming the general MMO populace's mindset, or what is often felt is "fair play" in order to keep "the very essence of EVE" as you say. Or if perhaps Eve is actually wrong and the rest of the MMO world has it right? Along the lines of "20 million Elvis fans can't be wrong" sort of thing. My opinion is that, right now, it is hard to see it because the norm is what it is. I think MMOs will eventually evolve into their own little virtual worlds with player manned police forces, and little microcosm cultures strewn here and there. When we get to that point, looking back on the DAoCs, WoWs, WarHammers, and whatnot will be like looking at a primitive past. But right now, people who are used to those environments, look at Eve as the primitive... oi... this was easier to convey to my buddy. I lost traction somewhere. ------------------- WE'RE SORRY, SOMETHING HAPPENED
Apolluon Elite Storm Enterprises Storm Armada	Posted - 2007.06.28 11:58:00 - [15] What does it mean, to fight with honor? To knowingly face off against a group that has logistical, and numerical superiority, on an open field? That concept of honor is what needlessly gets people killed in the real world. It is just as honorable a decision to say "well, screw that guys, we're going to do something different!" pack your gear, and run assymetric raids/an assymetric war. (guerilla tactics I guess). Provided, of course, you never peer into the abyss that violates human morality (prolongs suffering, induces torture to force a psychological win, etc...) Once you go there, honor is out the window. Enforced "honor" into a video game waters down the human element. Now, that does not mean there shouldn't be repercussions for certain actions within the game itself. I earnestly beleive that there should be a "locater" type agent, where, for enough money (and with enough standings) you can "track" a characters wallet transactions to their alts, and mark them as complicit as you see fit. Any attempt to force an "honorable" fight will kill this game. WoW has better "honorable" PvP already implemented; and the games on the horizon that offer similar are built around that whole "honor" thing. Eve allows/nurtures you being a rapscallion, and that makes it unique. Apolluon
Coveney Caldari Cold Jaguar Mining	Posted - 2007.06.28 12:06:00 - [16] Eve is too much like the real world. CCP created a game where the players will do everything possible with the tools CCP offer within the game and out. Since money in RL or the ISK short for Eve Online rule the way most of the things happening, i don`t see Eve without scammers or any sort of bug or/and cheat being used. If a human create something, bet that another will know how to break it apart. _______________________
Anehra X-Fire	Posted - 2007.06.28 12:10:00 - [17] Originally by: Roy Batty68 Exactly the sort of perspective that I'm comming from, but I think you skimmed through my post. I didn't mean to imply any sort of morality debate about war in general. In fact, forget the war references. I read your post. Morale just have to mentioned as imho it's more about morale than honour. That's what I tried to put up in my initial post.. to divert the 'honour' talk towards morale, as it's more a question of that rather than honour. - Revelation II - "WE'RE SORRY, SOMETHING HAPPENED"
Fenren	Posted - 2007.06.28 12:13:00 - [18] to fight with honour is to fight the way the enemy expects you to fight. it is as simple as that, and it will always be like that. Originally by: CCP Ginger Hello! Ships have crews, most pod controlled frigates do not, above that they have crews of varying sizes. Hope that helps.
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.28 12:19:00 - [19] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Fenren they packed a lot of guns close to each other and fired on the same target Why does this sound so damn familiar? Your analogy is too full of holes, I'm afraid. I appreciate what you're saying, but the analogy just doesn't work. In some ways EVE is like a minute man, and other MMO's are like redcoats. In other ways, warfare in EVE is far more close to "redcoat" warfare, and other MMOs focus on the power of the individual as did the minute men. In some respects, both are entirely unlike either. It just doesn't hang together. Take PvP in WoW for example. It's all about small groups of players out manoeuvring each other with centre-piece "special moves". In EVE, on the other hand, the winner is almost always the side with the largest, best organised, most unified force. --------

CCP Wrangler	Posted - 2007.06.28 12:29:00 - [20] There's no greater honor than winning. Wrangler Community Manager EVE Online Contact Support - Contact Moderators - Report Bug - Submit News Leads - Knowledge Base Player Guide - Policies - Join ISD - Fan Submissions - DevFinder LiteÖ


Fenren	Posted - 2007.06.28 12:31:00 - [21] Originally by: CCP Wrangler There's no greater honor than winning. that is going into someones sig... Originally by: CCP Ginger Hello! Ships have crews, most pod controlled frigates do not, above that they have crews of varying sizes. Hope that helps.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.06.28 12:31:00 - [22] Originally by: CCP Wrangler There's no greater honor than winning. No matter how it is done. /signed - Geniuses think alike. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Destiny Calling Amarr Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.06.28 12:49:00 - [23] Edited by: Destiny Calling on 28/06/2007 12:59:16 Edited by: Destiny Calling on 28/06/2007 12:55:26 Originally by: CCP Wrangler There's no greater honor than winning. To continue with the Brit / American thing its spelt 'Honour' edit - Is it hazardous to quote these people with gold around their posts and for the OP, it wasn't the 'colonies' it was America, need some props for fighting a war 3 - 6000 miles away 300 years ago, some countries still seem to have a problem with it currently, though I think we got it right in 1982. Wasn't 1 in 3000, but you make the point of inaccuracy well, I believe in that time period rifled weapons were not issued to infantry at the cost of it being too expensive. Wasn't untill the American / Canadian engagement were rifled weapons used by some British units (the rifles, green coats )on the North American continent. They were used in the opening of ther Iberium campaign (though not too much after Coruna) Napoleon also thought rifles were too expensive and did not equip his units with them, not what lsot him the war, but making the same mistake the brits did a 100 years earlier. Who learns from mistakes though? ****** still went for a walk in Russia. Sorry didn't read all your post, I like my history. edit - after coffee, I cannot spell, and that blanked out name, was that German chap from about 60 years ago, you know who I mean. thats right I need a new sig
Fenren	Posted - 2007.06.28 13:11:00 - [24] as much as it was an issue about money, it was an issue about shots/hour smooth bored guns where much faster to reload, and as such, much better for close range, despite their inaccuracy. as long as you had a lot of men, it was better to shoot a lot than to hit (that stands true today as well) wars are not won by killing the enemy, they are won by frighten the enemy enough to lay down his arms. you do not want to have to kill everyone Originally by: CCP Ginger Hello! Ships have crews, most pod controlled frigates do not, above that they have crews of varying sizes. Hope that helps.
Heikki Gallente Wreckless Abandon Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.06.28 13:15:00 - [25] Originally by: Roy Batty68 Should we be forced to play honorably? Yes. In general, there are no absolute honor codes. They are just some kind of condensated 'best practices' guides. Way of telling 'Really, although that idea sounds good in short term it will actually turn out to be bad.' Way of implementing humanish 'peer pressure'. Thus what is 'honorable' will change as the world changes. Like most of pre-WorldWar I ideas of honor lost their meaning as the way of warfare changed. Before wars were mostly run by class of professional (officer) soldiers (usually nobles). For them it made sense to ensure they could keep working (in some other army) even after a loss. Hence a lot of codes how to treat (officer) prisoners and so on. In Eve we can use the same mechanisms to enforce some commonly agreed goals. Say, if most agree that the 'games are for fun' aspect is really important one, we'll easily (automatically) get a lot of combat honor codes that aim to maintant such fun aspect (like, don't break your word on agreed 1vs1 duel, even if it appears benefitical for you on short term). So, to return to the given question: yes, peer pressure should force us to play honorably. And it's up to such peer communities to decide what's honorable. Feasible pirate code will differ from miner's code. -Lasse thinking 'honorable' and 'enjoyable' mean quite same things in Eve

CCP Wrangler	Posted - 2007.06.28 13:22:00 - [26] Originally by: Destiny Calling Edited by: Destiny Calling on 28/06/2007 12:59:16 Edited by: Destiny Calling on 28/06/2007 12:55:26 Originally by: CCP Wrangler There's no greater honor than winning. To continue with the Brit / American thing its spelt 'Honour' I use American English, even if that concept was invented by Microsoft and all British people get a heart attack when hearing about it. Wrangler Community Manager EVE Online Contact Support - Contact Moderators - Report Bug - Submit News Leads - Knowledge Base Player Guide - Policies - Join ISD - Fan Submissions - DevFinder LiteÖ

Tonkin D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.06.28 13:28:00 - [27] to be honest in real life if you want something really bad u will f*** anyone over to get it. personal depends where ur morals stand. i wont stand over my friends and family to get something. same in eve i wont cheat buddies or corp/allainces mates for gain. but in real life i would do anything to beat the guy next to me like a stranger to get a job or win a prize, or to get the girl. in eve its the same if you want to kill someone for there loot u may want to go up to them and ask for pvp and have a so called honarable fight. but most of the time in eve you force a fight on someone and you will normally engage a target that is weaker than you to gain there items and loot. sometimes you could use a target on pretending to be a really easy target and bait a enemy to shoot at, then he realises that i have a superor fit than him, or got lots of friends waiting to ambush him, that is fair game to be honest. if peeps are looking for a fair fight they should go on games where you ask you oponent. in eve however if does refelct in real life on how people get power and how they get it by stepping on the smaller man or using dirty tactics like one certain allainces in the past. its all fair game it wont be the game as it is today if it was all honor combat it would died along time ago if it did.
Amnika MonSulu DROW Org Brotherhood of The Spider	Posted - 2007.06.28 14:17:00 - [28] Should we be forced to play honorably. Good question. Reality is this. The question has nothing to do with tactics or walls of men with guns, Minutemen or Red Coats. It has nothing to do with fighting as your enemy expects you. Honor is the willpower that enables a man or woman to confront fear or danger regardless of the outcome. Honor shows itself in many ways in many areas of battle. Honor is shown by the friend that jumps to zero in a tech1 frigate to help an outnumbered group of corpmates at a gatecamp against numerical advantages. Honor is shown when a pirate charges head first into a group of anti-pirates that have jumped him in a belt and locked him down. It is perfectly acceptable to fight without honor. Fighting without honor is not a bad thing. The pilot that jumps in to help corp mates kill off the last ship of a fleet is not honorable, but he has done nothing wrong either. In reality, the pilot of the last ship...the pilot that went down with all guns blazing to die with his corpmates in that same battle played with honor. So...should we be forced to play with honor? No, but the game would get really boring really fast if nobody did. My point is this...learn what honor is before you start asking if we should be forced to have it. I would never fight alongside someone that didn't have guts to fight or die with honor when the time came for them to do so.
Cedric Diggory	Posted - 2007.06.28 14:27:00 - [29] Let's follow on from a "trite but true" phrase: Quote: All is fair in love and war I love eve, and eve is just one great big war. Ergo... Eve=Love Eve=War Love+War=Fair Eve=Fair So never feel bad about being cruel!
Xen Gin The Dragoons X-PACT	Posted - 2007.06.28 14:35:00 - [30] Originally by: CCP Wrangler There's no greater honor than *whining. Edited for the forum goers amoung us.



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