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Van Burren	Posted - 2007.06.28 14:58:00 - [1] Hi everyone! I think it will be good for everyone - both BoBs and anti-BoB coalition to sign a non-aggression, or, at least, no-take-territory pact until CPP solves problems with server desync? (I don't even hope that cpp will solve the immense lag in foreseeable future, so...) For BoBs and CCP, it will help save a reputation, 'cause it is very strange that lag/desync helps BoBs a lot and spoils the game for others. For others - it'll save them from extinction = leaving the game. ? Your turn.
Tarminic Black Flame Industries	Posted - 2007.06.28 15:02:00 - [2] Not gonna happen. Right now all the major alliances* are probably trying to find ways of exploiting it. *By "all the major alliances" I mean Goonswarm Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie IBTL! IBDS! IBTC! 1st in a BoB
Van Burren	Posted - 2007.06.28 15:10:00 - [3] The problem is with a very strange "coincidences" in 46dp, 6t3 and 77se-8. Where GMs did nothing. One side was disconnected (de-sync'ed? frozen?) and other side was ok and slaughtered the other side. ?
Estel Arador Minmatar AFK	Posted - 2007.06.28 15:15:00 - [4] Edited by: Estel Arador on 28/06/2007 15:13:50 I'm sceptical of supposed server/client issues which habitually affect one side only. Are you sure you're not exaggerating the effect it has on one side or playing down the effect it has on the other side? Edit: typo =AFK=
Tarminic Black Flame Industries	Posted - 2007.06.28 15:15:00 - [5] Originally by: Van Burren The problem is with a very strange "coincidences" in 46dp, 6t3 and 77se-8. Where GMs did nothing. One side was disconnected (de-sync'ed? frozen?) and other side was ok and slaughtered the other side. Your side? Post with your main if you wish to make such claims. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie IBTL! IBDS! IBTC! 1st in a BoB
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.28 15:18:00 - [6] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 28/06/2007 15:17:54 Originally by: Van Burren 'cause it is very strange that lag/desync helps BoBs a lot and spoils the game for others. For others - it'll save them from extinction = leaving the game. ? Your turn. Sorry, Lag/Desync/Computer Meltdown/Server Issues effect everyone. It is very strange that only our enemies blame their losses on it. I can tell you right now how many ships I have lost due to Lag/Desync/Computer Meltdown/Server Issues. But I wont, because I would rather laugh at it and get back in a new ship. But I will give you a clue. The percentage of my losses since the war began due to lag/desync etc starts with a 1, ends with a 0 and has a zero inbetween. In a battle, expect the effect of terrain and weather. Should everyone stop and have a cup of tea just because there was a bit of rain? Did the other side stop to take a break during lagfests of J1V1? Head back to Jita, Troll -- Billion Isk Mission
Laah T'Sin	Posted - 2007.06.28 15:27:00 - [7] Edited by: Laah T''Sin on 28/06/2007 15:30:42 Sorry but if you really think CCP or some CCP-affiliate would intentionally crash a node or cause lag for a single group of players then i really wonder what pills you take in the morning... i also want some! No but seriously... do you really think that CCP built in a new feature for the GMs so they can de-sync players by pressing a button to support an alliance?? I mean LOL... just LOL! Edit: SO this post ins't purly OT: I think the idea of a temporary NAP is good tbh. I mean currently it's not a question of skill or even a question of how good the FCs are.. it's simply a game of chance... if you de-sync then you'll die and if not then you may be able to kill a few hostiles.. not exactly a wonderful situation. The problem about your idea is that no alliance will ever agree to those terms... if a target of opportunity presents itself then i doubt anyone will let it pass.. NAP or no. Just think of the amount of espionage that could be done as soon as all the important systems are no longer protected.
Winterblink Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.06.28 15:31:00 - [8] Sits down with a few boxes of aluminum foil. Puts up sign: "Hats $5.00" warp drive active \| nature vraie
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Guardians of the Dawn Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.28 15:31:00 - [9] Just be aware that the lag, conenction losses etc.. are not political inclined. but theyare sure not fair. They behave differently when you are beign jumped by, you are jumping in, you are warping in, you are jum bridging or beign jump bridged etc... And these are things that must be solved, avoid the chances of one side forcing a type of engagement that they know will cause more lag to enemy than to themselves (that is for both sides) If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Princess Jodi Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.06.28 15:32:00 - [10] Not Signed. For one thing, if there is a new 'Tactic-That-Is-Not-Yet-An-Exploit', then I wanna use it against Bob until it is an Exploit. For another, we're not gonna stop fighting while Bob is counting down towards Soverignty.
Lickity Split Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.28 15:34:00 - [11] Its amazing people never want to accept the fact maybe they are at fault. How many bob do you see in jita? Last time i checked it had alot of lag. I guess we did that also huh? Face the facts, WE ARE BETTER THAN YOU! Its not lag, its not CCP, its not exploits. Its skills, tactics, determination.
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.06.28 15:46:00 - [12] Originally by: Lickity Split Its amazing people never want to accept the fact maybe they are at fault. How many bob do you see in jita? Last time i checked it had alot of lag. I guess we did that also huh? Face the facts, WE ARE BETTER THAN YOU! Its not lag, its not CCP, its not exploits. Its skills, tactics, determination. That's a difficult thing for many people to accept.... To do that, their fragile ego would have to accept that others are better than they.... "NO... THIS CANNOT BE!!! TO THE FORUM!!!" ...is the usual reaction instead.... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Van Burren	Posted - 2007.06.28 15:52:00 - [13] 2All: I didn't want to accuse anyone, so I'm sorry if someone took it personally. I just want a Fair Play-driven game.
Xarax Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.28 15:53:00 - [14] ....seriously? You think that this desync issue helps BoB while it hurts everyone else? Do you honestly think that the BoB pilots were in sync when the titan went down a week ago? Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming the lose on desync. The fleet that RAGoon jumped in would have accomplished their task whether we were in sync or not. But the fact of the matter remains...everything that we saw on our screen that night happened 2-3 minutes in the past. _______
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.28 15:53:00 - [15] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 28/06/2007 15:52:26 Originally by: Van Burren 2All: I didn't want to accuse anyone, so I'm sorry if someone took it personally. I just want a Fair Play-driven game. Then post with your main otherwise you are automatically assumed to be a troll alt. Also if you want to be fair, post factual information and not opinions of why you fail. -- Billion Isk Mission
gfldex Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.28 15:57:00 - [16] It's indeed a bit odd to use my NOS to probe if I'm in blaster range because my overview refuses to tell me how far I'm away from my victim. But as long as our enemies yell and cry on their TS instead of giving and following orders I can not see why I should not slaughter them. Ohh and all those nice insults in local I have to read pretty much every day will not raise sympathies for my enemies either. -- There are countless games in the world. There are at least as many ppl that dont like one or more rules of said games. That never stopped smart game designers from creating good games.
Tzrailasa Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.28 15:58:00 - [17] Edited by: Tzrailasa on 28/06/2007 15:58:42 Are things really going that bad that you need to NAP?? FACT: RA/pets has lag/desyncs/disconnects/etc. FACT: BoB/friends has lag/desyncs/disconnects/etc. The only difference is that only one of the two parties mentioned above whine about it.... If you have bug issues, submit a bloody detailed bug report to help CCP solve the problem. Whining endlessly on the forum doesn't help anything... My views are my own. They do not represent the views of my corporation or alliance.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Guardians of the Dawn Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.28 15:59:00 - [18] Originally by: Lickity Split Its amazing people never want to accept the fact maybe they are at fault. How many bob do you see in jita? Last time i checked it had alot of lag. I guess we did that also huh? Face the facts, WE ARE BETTER THAN YOU! Its not lag, its not CCP, its not exploits. Its skills, tactics, determination. But with this attitude you prove you are inferior human beings. Congrats If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Occara	Posted - 2007.06.28 16:01:00 - [19] Originally by: Lickity Split Its amazing people never want to accept the fact maybe they are at fault. How many bob do you see in jita? Last time i checked it had alot of lag. I guess we did that also huh? Face the facts, WE ARE BETTER THAN YOU! Its not lag, its not CCP, its not exploits. Its skills, tactics, determination. as an outside observer who isn't involving himself in eve pvp yet, I have to say that this is the typical response in an mmo of a side that has some unfair advantage. you aren't helping your cause at all by posting things like this. as a veteran of many mmos and MANY instances of overpoweredness/exploit/etc, the group with the advantage always claim some mythical skill/tactic/whatever as if they are better players than the others. it is something I have seen time and time again. this may not be the case here, but i wish to honestly let you know that posts like this will not help your cause at all. you are exhibiting the classic behaviour of the over-advantaged in a game trying to attribute it to some magical skill. i hate to break it to you bub (bob?), but given a large group of players in a game, in comparison of another large group of players, skill levels are going to be equal. if you really think you are just better than others, you are deluding yourself. ok, 3rd party commentary off.
Tzrailasa Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.28 16:09:00 - [20] Edited by: Tzrailasa on 28/06/2007 16:07:46 /me waves the clue-stick at Occara..... Damn, didn't work. Occara still has no clue whatsoever..... My views are my own. They do not represent the views of my corporation or alliance.
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2007.06.28 16:17:00 - [21] Originally by: Lickity Split Face the facts, WE ARE BETTER THAN YOU! Its not lag, its not CCP, its not exploits. Its skills, tactics, determination. Can't you come up with something better? This is getting very boring this always 'WE ARE BETTER' mantra. You are not better, where were you better when you lost the titan? Where were you better when you just now lost the stations to goons? Your mantra is complete nonsense. There are reports all over Eve of desyncs. From every party. Goons, TCF, BoB (yes also them, the honest ones agree), Razor in the north, Tri etc. Not only in large fleet engagement but also in small gangs of 20 people. SOMETHING serious got broken with Rev2, that becomes more and more obvious. It is NOT LAG, it is desync - something completely different which happened in the past only in extreme rare situations. Now it happens all the time. To the op: I doubt that a standoff would work, especially not with the new sov system. Time is running for one side now, they can setup cyno jammers when the time is up. The other side surely doesn't want this. So...fighting and more fighting.
Alice Cholmondeley Christine.	Posted - 2007.06.28 16:18:00 - [22] Originally by: Occara Originally by: Lickity Split Its amazing people never want to accept the fact maybe they are at fault. How many bob do you see in jita? Last time i checked it had alot of lag. I guess we did that also huh? Face the facts, WE ARE BETTER THAN YOU! Its not lag, its not CCP, its not exploits. Its skills, tactics, determination. as an outside observer who isn't involving himself in eve pvp yet, I have to say that this is the typical response in an mmo of a side that has some unfair advantage. you aren't helping your cause at all by posting things like this. as a veteran of many mmos and MANY instances of overpoweredness/exploit/etc, the group with the advantage always claim some mythical skill/tactic/whatever as if they are better players than the others. it is something I have seen time and time again. this may not be the case here, but i wish to honestly let you know that posts like this will not help your cause at all. you are exhibiting the classic behaviour of the over-advantaged in a game trying to attribute it to some magical skill. i hate to break it to you bub (bob?), but given a large group of players in a game, in comparison of another large group of players, skill levels are going to be equal. if you really think you are just better than others, you are deluding yourself. ok, 3rd party commentary off. You are exhibiting all the classic signs of a underachiever, a person that always wanted to be the guy that was just that bit better then himself. You need to reassure the people on the forum you have alot of experience with these things, because with no factual information what so ever you won't score any points with anyone.
lin ta	Posted - 2007.06.28 16:22:00 - [23] The lady bob protest too much, methinks. - William Shakespeare
AegriSomnia Caldari Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.06.28 16:25:00 - [24] WOW. This is highly disgusting and pathetic. I lost a ship last night in 9-9. Our 95 man fleet got jumped in on by a 95 man BoB fleet and my screen froze. I had to log out, and I knew that when I logged back in I would be in a pod. Oh, well. No biggie. But was it BoB's fault? No. WE JUST HAD A MAJOR PATCH A WEEK AGO. There are STILL issues to be worked out. I have made a personal descision to not participate in HUGE fleet battles until CCP sorts this out. Its not that I lost a ship, I fly what I expect to lose. Its that I didnt even get to participate or fire ONE missile, and that sucks. I LOVE big battles like that, and the lag ruined it for me. I WHOLE HEARTEDLY DISAGREE that this is some CCP/BoB conspiracy/exploit, and the suggestion of such IS ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS. I am sick and freakin tired of people like Van Burren, whoever you are, perpetuating this CRAP on these forums. I dont think you are a Goon Alt or a BoB Alt, I think you are someone totally unrelated to the situation trying to play everyone like a marionette. Go stick your head in an oven, you ***. Originally by:** grayson 34 Thank you for yall's advice, and a special thanks to AegriSomnia for reminding me that there are still ***holes in the world.
leefdorp Section XIII Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.06.28 16:34:00 - [25] Sorry, Lag/Desync/Computer Meltdown/Server Issues effect everyone. It is very strange that only our enemies blame their losses on it. I can tell you right now how many ships I have lost due to Lag/Desync/Computer Meltdown/Server Issues. But I wont, because I would rather laugh at it and get back in a new ship. But I will give you a clue. The percentage of my losses since the war began due to lag/desync etc starts with a 1, ends with a 0 and has a zero inbetween. In a battle, expect the effect of terrain and weather. Should everyone stop and have a cup of tea just because there was a bit of rain? Did the other side stop to take a break during lagfests of J1V1? Do you honestly beleive that after attempting to invade Bob space, get beaten back and now that the war is busted right through your front door and about to take over your house, you want a NAP? Hipocricy in action Head back to Jita, Troll i dont want a nap i just want to be able to play,
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.28 16:38:00 - [26] Originally by: Occara Originally by: Lickity Split Its amazing people never want to accept the fact maybe they are at fault. How many bob do you see in jita? Last time i checked it had alot of lag. I guess we did that also huh? Face the facts, WE ARE BETTER THAN YOU! Its not lag, its not CCP, its not exploits. Its skills, tactics, determination. as an outside observer who isn't involving himself in eve pvp yet, I have to say that this is the typical response in an mmo of a side that has some unfair advantage. you aren't helping your cause at all by posting things like this. as a veteran of many mmos and MANY instances of overpoweredness/exploit/etc, the group with the advantage always claim some mythical skill/tactic/whatever as if they are better players than the others. it is something I have seen time and time again. this may not be the case here, but i wish to honestly let you know that posts like this will not help your cause at all. you are exhibiting the classic behaviour of the over-advantaged in a game trying to attribute it to some magical skill. i hate to break it to you bub (bob?), but given a large group of players in a game, in comparison of another large group of players, skill levels are going to be equal. if you really think you are just better than others, you are deluding yourself. ok, 3rd party commentary off. Once you get involved in eve pvp, you will understand how wrong you are. Lets say 10 fully t2 fitted hacs take on 10 t1 cheapist fitted cruisers. How many HAC's will die? Probebly not even 1, since they lack the discipline to even focus fire on one target to break its tank. Now if the cruiser pilots were to start yelling "Aimbot, H4x, I wiz l4gged" then that is the excuse, not the reason they lost. The reason they lost is that they were not setup correctly for the job at hand. Another example. I took on a raven in my curse. I have a scrambler on him and I am shooting him away. I hear all maner of accusations as to why his explosive torps do almost no damage to my ship, and that I was hacking. Obviously he never knew that I shiled tank my curse's and shield tanked curses usually have around 90%+ explosive resit due to their fitouts. He then had the good grace to warp out, so fitting a stab is now the flavor of the raven ratter again. Obviously the stab nerf is not enough. But thats what we face day in day out - people who have not got a clue accusing everyone else of using aimbots. We win battles because we are better - not because of h4x. That is the point Lickity is making. -- Billion Isk Mission
DarkMatter	Posted - 2007.06.28 16:40:00 - [27] Edited by: DarkMatter on 28/06/2007 16:40:40 Hey CCP, why don't you try to get more subscribers? I bet that will fix the lag! Quote: But thats what we face day in day out - people who have not got a clue accusing everyone else of using aimbots. We win battles because we are better - not because of h4x. That is the point Lickity is making. Ok dude, don't break your arm patting yourself on the back now... Building the homestead
Occara	Posted - 2007.06.28 16:48:00 - [28] Originally by: Lord WarATron Originally by: Occara Originally by: Lickity Split Its amazing people never want to accept the fact maybe they are at fault. How many bob do you see in jita? Last time i checked it had alot of lag. I guess we did that also huh? Face the facts, WE ARE BETTER THAN YOU! Its not lag, its not CCP, its not exploits. Its skills, tactics, determination. as an outside observer who isn't involving himself in eve pvp yet, I have to say that this is the typical response in an mmo of a side that has some unfair advantage. you aren't helping your cause at all by posting things like this. as a veteran of many mmos and MANY instances of overpoweredness/exploit/etc, the group with the advantage always claim some mythical skill/tactic/whatever as if they are better players than the others. it is something I have seen time and time again. this may not be the case here, but i wish to honestly let you know that posts like this will not help your cause at all. you are exhibiting the classic behaviour of the over-advantaged in a game trying to attribute it to some magical skill. i hate to break it to you bub (bob?), but given a large group of players in a game, in comparison of another large group of players, skill levels are going to be equal. if you really think you are just better than others, you are deluding yourself. ok, 3rd party commentary off. Once you get involved in eve pvp, you will understand how wrong you are. Lets say 10 fully t2 fitted hacs take on 10 t1 cheapist fitted cruisers. How many HAC's will die? Probebly not even 1, since they lack the discipline to even focus fire on one target to break its tank. Now if the cruiser pilots were to start yelling "Aimbot, H4x, I wiz l4gged" then that is the excuse, not the reason they lost. The reason they lost is that they were not setup correctly for the job at hand. Another example. I took on a raven in my curse. I have a scrambler on him and I am shooting him away. I hear all maner of accusations as to why his explosive torps do almost no damage to my ship, and that I was hacking. Obviously he never knew that I shiled tank my curse's and shield tanked curses usually have around 90%+ explosive resit due to their fitouts. He then had the good grace to warp out, so fitting a stab is now the flavor of the raven ratter again. Obviously the stab nerf is not enough. But thats what we face day in day out - people who have not got a clue accusing everyone else of using aimbots. We win battles because we are better - not because of h4x. That is the point Lickity is making. 10 persons on a side does not a large group and large sample make. These are small numbers. How many thousands are large alliances? This is the scale i speak of. do you honestly think that your x thousand are better than their x thousand?
Callente Riveara Gallente Raddick Explorations Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2007.06.28 17:02:00 - [29] Edited by: Callente Riveara on 28/06/2007 17:02:17 Lag is a regrettably part of a fleet battle. Its not just Eve that suffers from this.. If you go in and dont expect to lose a ship to lag, then you probably shouldnt be in the battle in the first place.
gfldex Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.28 17:07:00 - [30] Originally by: Occara How many thousands are large alliances? This is the scale i speak of. do you honestly think that your x thousand are better than their x thousand? Yes. -- There are countless games in the world. There are at least as many ppl that dont like one or more rules of said games. That never stopped smart game designers from creating good games.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.28 17:12:00 - [31] Originally by: Lord WarATron Lets say 10 fully t2 fitted hacs take on 10 t1 cheapist fitted cruisers. How many HAC's will die? Probebly not even 1, since they lack the discipline to even focus fire on one target to break its tank. Now if the cruiser pilots were to start yelling "Aimbot, H4x, I wiz l4gged" then that is the excuse, not the reason they lost. The reason they lost is that they were not setup correctly for the job at hand. HEY! My corp took out a hac the other day with one BC and 3 Destroyers, don't be knocking the low sp characters, we can still train them to fight! (ok so I was tanking the thrasher he was firing at with the 3 medium shield transfers on my cane) Real turtles tank armor. Real men fly Pink. Nerfageddon!
Sang Raal	Posted - 2007.06.28 17:13:00 - [32] Edited by: Sang Raal on 28/06/2007 17:13:31 Edited by: Sang Raal on 28/06/2007 17:12:57 Edited by: Sang Raal on 28/06/2007 17:12:22 But...but...but...CCP had "another record breaking weekend" with a new all time record for most users online... http://www.eve-online.com/news/newsOfEve.asp?newsID=441 GG CCP
Occara	Posted - 2007.06.28 17:20:00 - [33] Originally by: gfldex Originally by: Occara How many thousands are large alliances? This is the scale i speak of. do you honestly think that your x thousand are better than their x thousand? Yes. at least you're honest. give it a few years, get a bit of perspective, you'll figure it out.
Lickity Split Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.28 17:30:00 - [34] Originally by: Occara Originally by: gfldex Originally by: Occara How many thousands are large alliances? This is the scale i speak of. do you honestly think that your x thousand are better than their x thousand? Yes. at least you're honest. give it a few years, get a bit of perspective, you'll figure it out. How do you think the guys in bob got to where they are now? Skills keep training, Tactics keep changing, and Determination keeps growing. What does that mean? More than likely the bob and friends will stay on top.
Occara	Posted - 2007.06.28 17:36:00 - [35] Originally by: Lickity Split Originally by: Occara Originally by: gfldex Originally by: Occara How many thousands are large alliances? This is the scale i speak of. do you honestly think that your x thousand are better than their x thousand? Yes. at least you're honest. give it a few years, get a bit of perspective, you'll figure it out. How do you think the guys in bob got to where they are now? Skills keep training, Tactics keep changing, and Determination keeps growing. What does that mean? More than likely the bob and friends will stay on top. i wasn't talking about in game terms.
Herculite Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.28 17:39:00 - [36] Originally by: Occara i wasn't talking about in game terms. I think I'm better than most people in RL too.
Indiano Arko Brutor tribe	Posted - 2007.06.28 17:41:00 - [37] Originally by: Van Burren 'cause it is very strange that lag/desync helps BoBs a lot and spoils the game for others. WTS Tinfoil hats. Cheap.
Occara	Posted - 2007.06.28 17:53:00 - [38] Originally by: Herculite Originally by: Occara i wasn't talking about in game terms. I think I'm better than most people in RL too. far greater men than I have continually made that mistake throughout history ;) At least in the video game case it's relatively benign.
Nevada Tan	Posted - 2007.06.28 18:19:00 - [39] Quick explanation of why, the other day, TCF/Goons lagged out while (some of) BoB didn't: The jump bridge. OK, slightly longer version: Small group of BoB jump in, TCF/Goons/etc. warp to them, bigger group of BoB jumps in, everyone already on grid before the second wave showed up desyncs (smaller group of BoB pilots already there included). It's the client/server code puking under the strain, not any sort of deliberate nefariousness by BoB or rogue devs inside CCP or whatever. Of course, now that people know that the Rev2 code desyncs and kinda-sorta know how to make it happen (maybe) - the next time might not be quite so accidental. ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ I have done a bad thing.
Hex Talani	Posted - 2007.06.28 18:31:00 - [40] I do not mean to say boasting and inflated notions of the self are good, but in the heat of battle, a duel, or a competition, the belief that you will beat your opponent is, in most cases, vital to your victory... and if that belief follows you to the forums, then that's too bad, but I do not fault people for it. Either go out there and believe the same thing of yourself and/or know that it is nothing but a belief. I see no reason to get upset with and beat humility into people (probably because it doesn't work). ------ Need a better Signature
Xeris Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.28 18:35:00 - [41] Originally by: Occara Originally by: Herculite Originally by: Occara i wasn't talking about in game terms. I think I'm better than most people in RL too. far greater men than I have continually made that mistake throughout history ;) At least in the video game case it's relatively benign. Hi goon alt
Occara	Posted - 2007.06.28 18:43:00 - [42] Edited by: Occara on 28/06/2007 18:44:09 Edited by: Occara on 28/06/2007 18:41:56 Originally by: Xeris Originally by: Occara Originally by: Herculite Originally by: Occara i wasn't talking about in game terms. I think I'm better than most people in RL too. far greater men than I have continually made that mistake throughout history ;) At least in the video game case it's relatively benign. Hi goon alt how 'bout no. but i was in groon for a week (from what i gathered they really didn't like goon, even though they played nice with them), but didn't really like it so i went back to npc corp. nice try though :)
Callente Riveara Gallente Raddick Explorations Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2007.06.28 18:45:00 - [43] Hate to break it to everyone, but BoB will keep getting bigger, and there is really no stopping them.. why? because they are already big. Who wants to join a dying cause? This is one case in eve where bigger IS better. Not trashing the goons or any of the other alliances or corps out there fighting BoB, im just saying that the sheer numbers they have has something to do with their victories.
Arenis Xemdal Amarr Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.28 19:43:00 - [44] Originally by: Callente Riveara Hate to break it to everyone, but BoB will keep getting bigger, and there is really no stopping them.. why? because they are already big. Who wants to join a dying cause? This is one case in eve where bigger IS better. Not trashing the goons or any of the other alliances or corps out there fighting BoB, im just saying that the sheer numbers they have has something to do with their victories. BoB's size remains in proportion to everyone else's. To be specific, ranked 3-5 on the alliance page. And the maximum size of fleets & fleet battles remains proportional to the max capacity of nodes. There hasn't been one period in history where the biggest player-created blob performed anything less than horrible on CCP's hardware. To top it off, our experience at fleet battles has been more or less proportional to everyone elses; everything has gone up and down but with relation to everything else, nothing in EVE has changed. Your comment about size equating to victory makes no sense to me. Whenever an alliance inflates itself to a point where size is responsible for most victories, its capacity to fight battles when outnumbered begins to dimininish, and so far we've been outnumbered in most fleet battles this year. Size is only relevant up to the point where any less makes you irrelevant. A 100-man corp where every player is active and focused to one goal can probably do as much damage as 95% of alliances out there.
DeadProphet Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.28 19:55:00 - [45] Originally by: Van Burren For BoBs and CCP, it will help save a reputation, 'cause it is very strange that lag/desync helps BoBs a lot and spoils the game for others. it cost us a mothership yeah, thats really helping us muppet
ikacyno	Posted - 2007.06.28 19:59:00 - [46] strange no explot like when BOB Titan and Motherships bump ship out of pos but 1 month later they are exploit
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Guardians of the Dawn Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.28 20:04:00 - [47] Originally by: Callente Riveara Hate to break it to everyone, but BoB will keep getting bigger, and there is really no stopping them.. why? because they are already big. Who wants to join a dying cause? This is one case in eve where bigger IS better. Not trashing the goons or any of the other alliances or corps out there fighting BoB, im just saying that the sheer numbers they have has something to do with their victories. Funny you ahve this point of view... because I. Would never leave my group to join a Top dog group. I alwasy on any game i playeed hated to be the uber race, group, equipment etc. takes out most of the fun. The sens of achievment. In eve i want to be in an alliance strogn enough to give me lots of possibilities of fun, but if there were only 1 superpower with 20 k players and other very small alliances with < 200 players.... no way i would join the big one. Going for the inning "side is the action of someone with lack of self esteem, a simple act of cowardice. The really SUPERIOR people face the odds .. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Love Juice Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.06.28 20:07:00 - [48] I love it when BoB claims they get lag/desync too and just deal with it... this after the fact they have already exploited every market loophole around (some of which seem quiet suspiciously involving GM help) ... so its very easy for them to lose t2 ships and replace them with ease. BoB has the isk to confront lag/desync and not care, because in the end its a chance they take to annihilate their hostiles and still be rich enough to cover their losses. btw, did Shrike get his Titan back or was that just a spare one kept in a GMs pocket. ------------------------ Who wants my love juice?
PirateShampoo Minmatar UK Corp FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.28 20:08:00 - [49] Its not just Bob/TCF/Goon, we (FATAL,M.Pire etc) are getting it vs Razor and friends. It's not razor and friends it's CCP again. It's defo been since rev 2. Jump in numbers = client desync with server. It's seriously not funny CCP, patch it or roll it back asap.
elohllird Gallente Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.28 20:48:00 - [50] Originally by: Love Juice I love it when BoB claims they get lag/desync too and just deal with it... this after the fact they have already exploited every market loophole around (some of which seem quiet suspiciously involving GM help) ... so its very easy for them to lose t2 ships and replace them with ease. BoB has the isk to confront lag/desync and not care, because in the end its a chance they take to annihilate their hostiles and still be rich enough to cover their losses. btw, did Shrike get his Titan back or was that just a spare one kept in a GMs pocket. /me resists urge to reply to s*** *** ****** Trolls Oh dear i said that out loud
Ulesi FinFleet	Posted - 2007.06.28 20:56:00 - [51] Originally by: Estel Arador Edited by: Estel Arador on 28/06/2007 15:13:50 I'm sceptical of supposed server/client issues which habitually affect one side only. Umm, it is affecting both sides. Just so you know... Originally by: Puupuu dude... your face...
Callente Riveara Gallente Raddick Explorations Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2007.06.28 20:57:00 - [52] Originally by: Kagura Nikon Funny you ahve this point of view... because I. Would never leave my group to join a Top dog group. I didnt mean I would leave my Corp to join up with BoB, im just saying joining a big Alliance/Corp like BoB is alot more appealing to noob's then it would be to join a small corp. And in my last post concerning size of BoB, i also meant the..i suppose notority of BoB being bigger? Alot more appealing to newbies..
Merin Ryskin FinFleet	Posted - 2007.06.28 21:19:00 - [53] Honestly, the level of paranoia required to accuse BoB of hacking is just hillarious. Last time I checked, my corp was still fighting alongside BoB. And hey, we get lag and de-synch too! The other night I was "in" a 50v50 fight. Pretty small fight by 0.0 standards, nobody was exploiting the lag (shuttle/can spam, etc). I jumped in, immediately de-synched and never even loaded the grid. Re-logged to find the entire enemy fleet gone. Meanwhile the FC was still calling targets. Several of our people were still "shooting" at a ship that had left minutes ago. Half our fleet was de-synched so badly they had to re-log to fix it. So I suppose this was GS/RA cheating and de-synching the interdictor pilot so they could escape? Or how about a better idea: EVE's network code sucks. Lag and de-synch problems exist, and always have existed. I've lost ships to de-synch problems months ago, in empire, with no connection to BoB or the Revelations patch. Individual patches may make it better or worse, but connection problems are a fact of life in EVE. Yell at CCP all you want, but blaming the player alliances for it is just silly.
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.28 21:36:00 - [54] Originally by: Occara Originally by: Lord WarATron Originally by: Occara Originally by: Lickity Split Its amazing people never want to accept the fact maybe they are at fault. How many bob do you see in jita? Last time i checked it had alot of lag. I guess we did that also huh? Face the facts, WE ARE BETTER THAN YOU! Its not lag, its not CCP, its not exploits. Its skills, tactics, determination. as an outside observer who isn't involving himself in eve pvp yet, I have to say that this is the typical response in an mmo of a side that has some unfair advantage. you aren't helping your cause at all by posting things like this. as a veteran of many mmos and MANY instances of overpoweredness/exploit/etc, the group with the advantage always claim some mythical skill/tactic/whatever as if they are better players than the others. it is something I have seen time and time again. this may not be the case here, but i wish to honestly let you know that posts like this will not help your cause at all. you are exhibiting the classic behaviour of the over-advantaged in a game trying to attribute it to some magical skill. i hate to break it to you bub (bob?), but given a large group of players in a game, in comparison of another large group of players, skill levels are going to be equal. if you really think you are just better than others, you are deluding yourself. ok, 3rd party commentary off. Once you get involved in eve pvp, you will understand how wrong you are. Lets say 10 fully t2 fitted hacs take on 10 t1 cheapist fitted cruisers. How many HAC's will die? Probebly not even 1, since they lack the discipline to even focus fire on one target to break its tank. Now if the cruiser pilots were to start yelling "Aimbot, H4x, I wiz l4gged" then that is the excuse, not the reason they lost. The reason they lost is that they were not setup correctly for the job at hand. Another example. I took on a raven in my curse. I have a scrambler on him and I am shooting him away. I hear all maner of accusations as to why his explosive torps do almost no damage to my ship, and that I was hacking. Obviously he never knew that I shiled tank my curse's and shield tanked curses usually have around 90%+ explosive resit due to their fitouts. He then had the good grace to warp out, so fitting a stab is now the flavor of the raven ratter again. Obviously the stab nerf is not enough. But thats what we face day in day out - people who have not got a clue accusing everyone else of using aimbots. We win battles because we are better - not because of h4x. That is the point Lickity is making. 10 persons on a side does not a large group and large sample make. These are small numbers. How many thousands are large alliances? This is the scale i speak of. do you honestly think that your x thousand are better than their x thousand? Quite frankly, yes. 30 fully t2 fitted BS's in the hands of skilled pvpers, can kill 60 t1 crappy fitted bs's piloted by people who are not experienced in fleet warfare quite easaly, and probebly without loss. You see, the flaw in your argument is that you assume all players are equally skilled amoung all alliances. This is not the case at all. Over the past year or two, many badly managed alliances came into the game, who basically were, for lack of a better term, operating with a ISK farmer mentality. These alliances eventually lose their pvpers who like to band with likeminded people. See where I am going with this? -- Billion Isk Mission
Occara	Posted - 2007.06.28 21:42:00 - [55] Originally by: Lord WarATron Originally by: Occara Originally by: Lord WarATron Originally by: Occara Originally by: Lickity Split Its amazing people never want to accept the fact maybe they are at fault. How many bob do you see in jita? Last time i checked it had alot of lag. I guess we did that also huh? Face the facts, WE ARE BETTER THAN YOU! Its not lag, its not CCP, its not exploits. Its skills, tactics, determination. as an outside observer who isn't involving himself in eve pvp yet, I have to say that this is the typical response in an mmo of a side that has some unfair advantage. you aren't helping your cause at all by posting things like this. as a veteran of many mmos and MANY instances of overpoweredness/exploit/etc, the group with the advantage always claim some mythical skill/tactic/whatever as if they are better players than the others. it is something I have seen time and time again. this may not be the case here, but i wish to honestly let you know that posts like this will not help your cause at all. you are exhibiting the classic behaviour of the over-advantaged in a game trying to attribute it to some magical skill. i hate to break it to you bub (bob?), but given a large group of players in a game, in comparison of another large group of players, skill levels are going to be equal. if you really think you are just better than others, you are deluding yourself. ok, 3rd party commentary off. Once you get involved in eve pvp, you will understand how wrong you are. Lets say 10 fully t2 fitted hacs take on 10 t1 cheapist fitted cruisers. How many HAC's will die? Probebly not even 1, since they lack the discipline to even focus fire on one target to break its tank. Now if the cruiser pilots were to start yelling "Aimbot, H4x, I wiz l4gged" then that is the excuse, not the reason they lost. The reason they lost is that they were not setup correctly for the job at hand. Another example. I took on a raven in my curse. I have a scrambler on him and I am shooting him away. I hear all maner of accusations as to why his explosive torps do almost no damage to my ship, and that I was hacking. Obviously he never knew that I shiled tank my curse's and shield tanked curses usually have around 90%+ explosive resit due to their fitouts. He then had the good grace to warp out, so fitting a stab is now the flavor of the raven ratter again. Obviously the stab nerf is not enough. But thats what we face day in day out - people who have not got a clue accusing everyone else of using aimbots. We win battles because we are better - not because of h4x. That is the point Lickity is making. 10 persons on a side does not a large group and large sample make. These are small numbers. How many thousands are large alliances? This is the scale i speak of. do you honestly think that your x thousand are better than their x thousand? Quite frankly, yes. 30 fully t2 fitted BS's in the hands of skilled pvpers, can kill 60 t1 crappy fitted bs's piloted by people who are not experienced in fleet warfare quite easaly, and probebly without loss. You see, the flaw in your argument is that you assume all players are equally skilled amoung all alliances. This is not the case at all. Over the past year or two, many badly managed alliances came into the game, who basically were, for lack of a better term, operating with a ISK farmer mentality. These alliances eventually lose their pvpers who like to band with likeminded people. See where I am going with this? yes, you are back at the old "we are just inherently better" line that has been used throughout history and proven wrong each time.
Frug Zenithal Harvest	Posted - 2007.06.28 21:43:00 - [56] Originally by: Van Burren 2All: I didn't want to accuse anyone, so I'm sorry if someone took it personally. I just want a Fair Play-driven game. Post with your main. You get a 2/10 for effort. This is absurd. Let the issue drop. Every time I hear stupid crap like this I start liking BoB again, and I don't want to like BoB. They are clearly the bad guys, the Empire of evil, the oppressive regime of eve. But if the opposition keeps crying cheater in such stupid ways I'm going to donate all my assets to BoB just so they can shut you up. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
Shirei Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated	Posted - 2007.06.28 21:50:00 - [57] Desyncs as well as immense lag have been regularly occurring in EVE for 3+ years and have been occurring a lot before the patch just as after (I wouldn't be surprised if 30-50% of the coalition dread fleet at F-T were desynced for example, my dread certainly was). The reason supercaps die to desyncs now where they didn't before is that they can't cyno while bubbled (which they could - desynced or not - before), which doesn't have all that much to do with the desyncs themselves.
Vahl Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.06.28 21:51:00 - [58] If the OP is a goon alt he needs to shoot himself in the face. We don't want any damned NAP and you are stupid for even suggesting such an idiotic request. ____________________________________________________________________ Now you realize that evil will always triumph because good is dumb.
violator2k5 Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.28 21:54:00 - [59] Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: Lickity Split Its amazing people never want to accept the fact maybe they are at fault. How many bob do you see in jita? Last time i checked it had alot of lag. I guess we did that also huh? Face the facts, WE ARE BETTER THAN YOU! Its not lag, its not CCP, its not exploits. Its skills, tactics, determination. But with this attitude you prove you are inferior human beings. Congrats an inferior human being would be one that never admits their wrong or learn by their mistakes. he may be egotistical but arent we all in some way and i do believe he is right. at the end of this war i believe the only ones who'll be standing on the battlefield in the south, once its all done will be bob... others may disagree but all i can say is we'll see Originally by: Love Juice I love it when BoB claims they get lag/desync too and just deal with it... this after the fact they have already exploited every market loophole around (some of which seem quiet suspiciously involving GM help) ... so its very easy for them to lose t2 ships and replace them with ease. we do deal with lag n desync, we dont whine or moan about it, we get our butts into gear and move through it, its called perseverance. as for the ship replacement, its called having a good industrial backbone to support our needs while in pvp Originally by: Love Juice btw, did Shrike get his Titan back or was that just a spare one kept in a GMs pocket. he just got excited from seeing us on the field, so he unleashed his ep33n ---------------------------- BOB 4 LIFE NOT JUST 4 A DAY ----------------------------
Gort Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.06.28 23:00:00 - [60] Fanboi's notwithstanding, Occara is almost certainly correct. Particularly in a broadly-applied context. Second item: While extreme lag/de-sync may strike evenly under current conditions, if there is a regularized trigger for it in the code, those with superior access to the keepers of the code will probably end up finding an advantage in particular circumstances. That should probably not be described as "superior skill" but rather as regrettable meta-gaming. CCP have chosen to climb on the back of a tiger with their policies. I wonder if they know what to do now? Sure is a lot of overheated breast-beating here by certain parties. Regards to the salt of the earth. Keep on having fun, Gort -- When in doubt, empty the magazine.
AegriSomnia Caldari Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.06.28 23:06:00 - [61] Ummmm, I might get in trouble for saying this but..... Its not about BoBs numbers or their resources or all that other crap that I just read. They really are a very good group of pilots that fly very good ships. This is why I fly against them, and love to hate them. I learn something EVERY time I take the field. I do think that there are some very smart FC's that have figured out this desync thing and are using it. Its just smart. I just hope CCP fixes it soon. Originally by: grayson 34 Thank you for yall's advice, and a special thanks to AegriSomnia for reminding me that there are still ***holes in the world.
Nevada Tan	Posted - 2007.06.28 23:13:00 - [62] OTOH, it didn't do them much good tonight. ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ I have done a bad thing.
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.28 23:34:00 - [63] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 28/06/2007 23:41:04 Originally by: Occara Edited by: Occara on 28/06/2007 21:46:11 Edited by: Occara on 28/06/2007 21:43:50 Originally by: Lord WarATron Quite frankly, yes. 30 fully t2 fitted BS's in the hands of skilled pvpers, can kill 60 t1 crappy fitted bs's piloted by people who are not experienced in fleet warfare quite easaly, and probebly without loss. You see, the flaw in your argument is that you assume all players are equally skilled amoung all alliances. This is not the case at all. Over the past year or two, many badly managed alliances came into the game, who basically were, for lack of a better term, operating with a ISK farmer mentality. These alliances eventually lose their pvpers who like to band with likeminded people. See where I am going with this? yes, you are back at the old "we are just inherently better" line that has been used throughout history and proven wrong each time. your particular slant on it is that inherently superior folk are attracted to your group. this isn't a new angle, and ends up being the exact same (though often it is the one i've seen used in an mmo). Better players pick class x! more hardcore players pick side y! Seen it all before, and it's never been true then, and i'd imagine it's not now. Therefore, according to your argument, there is no point to competitive sports, since all humans have equal amounts of ability among them? Are you saying there is no point in the Olympics because everyone has equal amounts? You are aware that some countries are better than others because of training, determination etc etc? Or are you trying to do a Ad Hominim attack, since your argument is invalid? What is your point by the way? That we have some kind of seceret lag button that we press? -- Billion Isk Mission
Ernest Graefenberg Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.28 23:49:00 - [64] Originally by: Lord WarATron Edited by: Lord WarATron on 28/06/2007 15:25:22 Originally by: Van Burren 'cause it is very strange that lag/desync helps BoBs a lot and spoils the game for others. For others - it'll save them from extinction = leaving the game. ? Your turn. Sorry, Lag/Desync/Computer Meltdown/Server Issues effect everyone. It is very strange that only our enemies blame their losses on it. Actually, the complete opposite is true with the current situation. It's completely dependent on who loads grid when, and any set of pilots (obviously regardless of allegiance) loading at the impacted moment will be desynched and unable to do anything. To make an example, in a tiny fight (20 people per side roughly), this happened. The opposition warping into the grid was desynched and unable to do anything, and so was everyone jumping in at that very moment. However, anyone jumping in ~15-20 seconds later was perfectly fine. In that case, this resulted in 2 of us just shooting at immobile targets popping them one by one while the rest of the gang relogged to get control of their client back. Defensive kneejerk reactions are cute, and do illustrate the point that you're a douchebag, but they're also completely false. The mechanics of the current problem seem to almost guarantee that one side will be much, much more dramatically impacted.
Angelus Damelon Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.06.28 23:56:00 - [65] Alt Trolls: raaaaaaaargh BoB hax exploits :tinfoil: BoB Trolls: We're just better than you and clearly the fact that many people from multiple alliances (including our own) have pointed out that Rev 2 has resulted in a new type of desync problem is not worth discussing at all because we are omnipotence itself and you should all move back to Jita, noobs. Everyone else: Shut up shut up shut up you're both stupid shut up.
Occara	Posted - 2007.06.28 23:57:00 - [66] Originally by: Lord WarATron Edited by: Lord WarATron on 28/06/2007 23:41:04 Originally by: Occara Edited by: Occara on 28/06/2007 21:46:11 Edited by: Occara on 28/06/2007 21:43:50 Originally by: Lord WarATron Quite frankly, yes. 30 fully t2 fitted BS's in the hands of skilled pvpers, can kill 60 t1 crappy fitted bs's piloted by people who are not experienced in fleet warfare quite easaly, and probebly without loss. You see, the flaw in your argument is that you assume all players are equally skilled amoung all alliances. This is not the case at all. Over the past year or two, many badly managed alliances came into the game, who basically were, for lack of a better term, operating with a ISK farmer mentality. These alliances eventually lose their pvpers who like to band with likeminded people. See where I am going with this? yes, you are back at the old "we are just inherently better" line that has been used throughout history and proven wrong each time. your particular slant on it is that inherently superior folk are attracted to your group. this isn't a new angle, and ends up being the exact same (though often it is the one i've seen used in an mmo). Better players pick class x! more hardcore players pick side y! Seen it all before, and it's never been true then, and i'd imagine it's not now. Therefore, according to your argument, there is no point to competitive sports, since all humans have equal amounts of ability among them? Are you saying there is no point in the Olympics because everyone has equal amounts? You are aware that some countries are better than others because of training, determination etc etc? Or are you trying to do a Ad Hominim attack, since your argument is invalid? What is your point by the way? That we have some kind of seceret lag button that we press? competitive sports involve teams of relatively small numbers of players (and even then skill levels end up being pretty similar apart from a few outliers). olympic events are competitions of individuals. Why do you keep trying to draw parallels to small groups? we aren't even talking within the same order of magnitude for numbers. possibly not even within two orders of magnitude. i never claimed a small group might be better at something than another small group, but when you end up with numbers in the thousands and especially when you are all pulling from the same pool of people, any difference in this magical "skill" are merely figments of your imagination.
Black Jumper Altera Odyssea Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.06.29 00:09:00 - [67] Originally by: Lickity Split Its amazing people never want to accept the fact maybe they are at fault. How many bob do you see in jita? Last time i checked it had alot of lag. I guess we did that also huh? Face the facts, WE ARE BETTER THAN YOU! Its not lag, its not CCP, its not exploits. Its skills, tactics, determination. Ahem
Bizz Lizz	Posted - 2007.06.29 00:13:00 - [68] Originally by: Angelus Damelon Everyone else: Shut up shut up shut up you're both stupid shut up. And I thought you are nice guys.
Selene Le'Cotiere Amarr Dark Oracle Enterprises	Posted - 2007.06.29 00:24:00 - [69] Is it me.. or do these types of threads seem to center around BoB vs (who ever)? Generally when I see other battle Reports with different alliances, people are like "Good fight, well done" and manage to shake hands afterwards.
Angelus Damelon Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.06.29 00:32:00 - [70] Originally by: Bizz Lizz Originally by: Angelus Damelon Everyone else: Shut up shut up shut up you're both stupid shut up. And I thought you are nice guys. I am!
Philounet Altera Odyssea Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.06.29 00:41:00 - [71] Originally by: Black Jumper Originally by: Lickity Split Its amazing people never want to accept the fact maybe they are at fault. How many bob do you see in jita? Last time i checked it had alot of lag. I guess we did that also huh? Face the facts, WE ARE BETTER THAN YOU! Its not lag, its not CCP, its not exploits. Its skills, tactics, determination. Ahem Look at the Stats from Lickity on BOB KB and wonder where that arrogance comes from ...I just hope for him that it's not his main
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.29 10:23:00 - [72] Originally by: Occara Edited by: Occara on 29/06/2007 00:05:56 Originally by: Lord WarATron Therefore, according to your argument, there is no point to competitive sports, since all humans have equal amounts of ability among them? Are you saying there is no point in the Olympics because everyone has equal amounts? You are aware that some countries are better than others because of training, determination etc etc? Or are you trying to do a Ad Hominim attack, since your argument is invalid? What is your point by the way? That we have some kind of seceret lag button that we press? competitive sports involve teams of relatively small numbers of players (and even then skill levels end up being pretty similar apart from a few outliers). olympic events are competitions of individuals. Why do you keep trying to draw parallels to small groups? we aren't even talking within the same order of magnitude for numbers. possibly not even within two orders of magnitude. i never claimed a small group can't be better at something than another small group, but when you end up with numbers in the thousands and especially when you are all pulling from the same pool of people, any difference in this magical "skill" are merely figments of your imagination. And thats your problem. You Assume that all corps/alliances in eve take random people on board, therefore skill is a random factor. This is not the case with most PvP aliances - they recruit on proven ability, thus they cherry pick the people they want. Also your statement ignores the leadership factor, since if the other side had impressive leadership, I would be currently mining in Jita and not on the doorstep of the enemy's home space. -- Billion Isk Mission
Tassadar Beta Amarr BIG BIG is Beautiful	Posted - 2007.06.29 11:32:00 - [73] The more pilots you put in one area the more problems will become apparent, if you suddenly put a bunch of pilots in one area the problems will become apparent quicker its simply a fact. BoB are good pilots and no doubt so are some of the people flying against them. BoB aren't invincible but all the people who seem to come to the forums whining about it give others that impression. Just get on with it. And to the OP if you can manage your proposal you'll have managed what no-one else in the history of eve has managed, the entire eve universe at peace albeit for a small period. I think that shows how hard it would be to get even one side to agree to it.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.06.29 11:44:00 - [74] Originally by: Lord WarATron Originally by: Occara Edited by: Occara on 29/06/2007 00:05:56 Originally by: Lord WarATron Therefore, according to your argument, there is no point to competitive sports, since all humans have equal amounts of ability among them? Are you saying there is no point in the Olympics because everyone has equal amounts? You are aware that some countries are better than others because of training, determination etc etc? Or are you trying to do a Ad Hominim attack, since your argument is invalid? What is your point by the way? That we have some kind of seceret lag button that we press? competitive sports involve teams of relatively small numbers of players (and even then skill levels end up being pretty similar apart from a few outliers). olympic events are competitions of individuals. Why do you keep trying to draw parallels to small groups? we aren't even talking within the same order of magnitude for numbers. possibly not even within two orders of magnitude. i never claimed a small group can't be better at something than another small group, but when you end up with numbers in the thousands and especially when you are all pulling from the same pool of people, any difference in this magical "skill" are merely figments of your imagination. And thats your problem. You Assume that all corps/alliances in eve take random people on board, therefore skill is a random factor. This is not the case with most PvP aliances - they recruit on proven ability, thus they cherry pick the people they want. Also your statement ignores the leadership factor, since if the other side had impressive leadership, I would be currently mining in Jita and not on the doorstep of the enemy's home space. Of course skill factors into it. But how do you explain that one day you annihilate your enemy with a 20/1 KD ratio and today you lose a battle? Out of shape, all of BoB turned into noobs for a day? I think the explanation is a bit of both. Yes BoB has experienced players and a lot of discipline. Some smaller factions in Eve can match them in that aspect and even surpass them, but at the size BoB is, there are few if any potential equals (only RA/AAA come to mind). Secondly, BoB has a lot of experience in dealing with laggy situations, fighting under less than optimal conditions. They know when to expect it, they know what to do when it happens. Opponents, not used to fighting in this kind of environment, do not. Even small, highly experienced units, who man for man could very well be better than BoB, could struggle due to not being used to fighting in big gangs, with lots of lag. But aside from the skill aspects, lag can play a big role. Sometimes both sides get hit by it, sometimes neither. But sometimes just 1 side gets hammered by it. Since BoB knows when to expect it and how to handle it, its mostly not them that gets hammered. But when they do, it turns out just about as ugly for BoB as it does for anyone else. ------------------------------------------------ Murphy's Golden Rule: Whoever has the gold, makes the rules.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Guardians of the Dawn Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.29 11:44:00 - [75] Originally by: violator2k5 Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: Lickity Split Its amazing people never want to accept the fact maybe they are at fault. How many bob do you see in jita? Last time i checked it had alot of lag. I guess we did that also huh? Face the facts, WE ARE BETTER THAN YOU! Its not lag, its not CCP, its not exploits. Its skills, tactics, determination. But with this attitude you prove you are inferior human beings. Congrats an inferior human being would be one that never admits their wrong or learn by their mistakes. he may be egotistical but arent we all in some way and i do believe he is right. at the end of this war i believe the only ones who'll be standing on the battlefield in the south, once its all done will be bob... others may disagree but all i can say is we'll see granted that is another kind of inferior human being. But egocentric rampagind and smacktalkign are hardly considered high in the list of human virtues. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Kayl Breinhar Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.06.29 12:06:00 - [76] Edited by: Kayl Breinhar on 29/06/2007 12:06:33 Were I a betting man I'd say the OP is a BoB alt/pet/supporter/fanboy with a very limited knowledge of 0.0 thinking he's somehow being demoralizing and clever. Reason? A typical Goon alt would have way more posts than this guy.
Mrs Tradeline	Posted - 2007.06.29 12:08:00 - [77] Originally by: Kayl Breinhar I'd say the OP is a BoB alt/pet/supporter/fanboy I'd say you sir aren't very smart, are you?
Kayl Breinhar Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.06.29 12:11:00 - [78] Edited by: Kayl Breinhar on 29/06/2007 12:10:36 Originally by: Mrs Tradeline Originally by: Kayl Breinhar I'd say the OP is a BoB alt/pet/supporter/fanboy I'd say you sir aren't very smart, are you? ...like uncorped alts haven't posted similar idiotic attempts a demoralizing in the past to influence public opinion.
Occara	Posted - 2007.06.29 13:39:00 - [79] Originally by: Malachon Draco And thats your problem. You Assume that all corps/alliances in eve take random people on board, therefore skill is a random factor. This is not the case with most PvP aliances - they recruit on proven ability, thus they cherry pick the people they want. Also your statement ignores the leadership factor, since if the other side had impressive leadership, I would be currently mining in Jita and not on the doorstep of the enemy's home space. Of course skill factors into it. But how do you explain that one day you annihilate your enemy with a 20/1 KD ratio and today you lose a battle? Out of shape, all of BoB turned into noobs for a day? I think the explanation is a bit of both. Yes BoB has experienced players and a lot of discipline. Some smaller factions in Eve can match them in that aspect and even surpass them, but at the size BoB is, there are few if any potential equals (only RA/AAA come to mind). Secondly, BoB has a lot of experience in dealing with laggy situations, fighting under less than optimal conditions. They know when to expect it, they know what to do when it happens. Opponents, not used to fighting in this kind of environment, do not. Even small, highly experienced units, who man for man could very well be better than BoB, could struggle due to not being used to fighting in big gangs, with lots of lag. But aside from the skill aspects, lag can play a big role. Sometimes both sides get hit by it, sometimes neither. But sometimes just 1 side gets hammered by it. Since BoB knows when to expect it and how to handle it, its mostly not them that gets hammered. But when they do, it turns out just about as ugly for BoB as it does for anyone else. You sir, are getting the idea. i'll even throw in that a well-followed experienced leader can turn the tide in situations, but in that case there is no extra magical skill to the unwashed masses he leads. they are more or less riding his coattails.

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