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Malcanis High4Life Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.30 11:39:00 - [31] Originally by: tommit Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: tommit Edited by: tommit on 30/06/2007 11:00:26 Originally by: Malcanis I think you need to train "coherent expression" to at least level 1. Maybe try cutting back on your sugar intake a little as well. Try posting again, but this time, just make ONE point. Thank you. if your brain can't follow, don't respond to the post and don't troll. one point is nothing that makes people think since its easy to find one little thing, but when there is a whole bunch of stuff that is wrong most people start theyre brains and begin to think about it ty There you see, that wasn't so hard, was it? It's fine to have a number of ideas, but your post was not very coherent. You'll get your ideas across more effectively if you present them separately, or at least in a logical sequence. I probably could decipher it but... why should I? If you've merely lobbed a text-wall of unpunctuated, disordered babble at me, then chances are that there's little of value in it. Yes, it's easy to find "one little thing". That's not a reason not to do it, though. This is a forum, and the post will still be there later if you want to answer more things from it later. Sometimes I'll read a post, and one point made in it will strike me as worthy of comment. Why should I waste my and everyone else's time replying to the rest of the post when I have nothing to say about it?
Inspiration	Posted - 2007.06.30 11:39:00 - [32] Rev II has a new big ISK sink added to the game, but I havent read it in here. Nearly every LP shop offer requires not only LP but also quite some ISK. Before Rev II, it was only occational that ISK got removed this way, now its nearly always. By tweaking those prices over time, CCP can in fact create a sink as large as they like. It will work as long as the items offered are of enaugh value to players to go trough the trouble of gathering LP. The same feature (but badly used by CCP atm) can spread the load of mission runners over more systems. By assigning valuable and unique implant offers to corporations that normaly get little attention they can lure missioners away to now empty spaces. As said, they got the power and solution in their hands, but I don't see them using it atm.....maybe they don't realize it, dunno!
Jennai The Silent Rage R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.06.30 11:42:00 - [33] Edited by: Jennai on 30/06/2007 11:55:06 Originally by: Alski On the wider scale yes I see your point, but for the individual player he is still down the cost of the insurance and possibly his fittings, some of which will be destroyed anyway. the state of the individual player's wallet is irrelevant. the only isk sinks involved with the loss of a ship are sales tax, broker fees, and factory costs from all the processes leading up to the final sale to the player, and those are very small compared to the isk source of the insurance payout. the destruction of fittings removes minerals from the economy, but has no effect on isk other than the small amount removed through production and sales costs. Originally by: Alski QFT, allthough the BPO's if you wanted to go that way would make you plenty of isk back over time, thats an investment, Skillbooks - esp. capital skillbooks are a huge isk sink. the BPO does not insert isk into the economy. it would if there were NPC buy orders on the item being produced (converting minerals to isk just like insurance payouts), but selling items to players is not an isk source (it's actually an isk sink due to production and sales costs). it's only an isk source if the isk is coming from NPCs, e.g. insurance payouts, selling to NPC buy orders, rat bounties, mission rewards.
Malcanis High4Life Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.30 11:50:00 - [34] Edited by: Malcanis on 30/06/2007 11:48:57 damb forum ate my post. meh, time for beer
Malcanis High4Life Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.30 11:57:00 - [35] Originally by: Inspiration Rev II has a new big ISK sink added to the game, but I havent read it in here. Nearly every LP shop offer requires not only LP but also quite some ISK. Before Rev II, it was only occational that ISK got removed this way, now its nearly always. By tweaking those prices over time, CCP can in fact create a sink as large as they like. It will work as long as the items offered are of enaugh value to players to go trough the trouble of gathering LP. The same feature (but badly used by CCP atm) can spread the load of mission runners over more systems. By assigning valuable and unique implant offers to corporations that normaly get little attention they can lure missioners away to now empty spaces. As said, they got the power and solution in their hands, but I don't see them using it atm.....maybe they don't realize it, dunno! Excellent point. I hadn't considered the LP store, but you're perfectly correct; it is a massive ISK sink. I'll have to think about how this will affect the EvE economy. My instinct is that the LP store should have a deflationary effect, and quite a strong one. It removes ISK from the economy, as you say, and it also effectively increases the supply of sought-after LP rewards at the expense of unwanted ones, thus lowering the price a lot. As a side effect, lowering the price of stat booster implants will help new characters catch up with the veterans. Side note: one area where I have noticed big price rises is character selling. Is this because supply has fallen or demand has risen or because of an increase in perceived value? Any insights?
Pestachi0	Posted - 2007.06.30 12:00:00 - [36] Originally by: Inspiration Rev II has a new big ISK sink added to the game, but I havent read it in here. Nearly every LP shop offer requires not only LP but also quite some ISK. Before Rev II, it was only occational that ISK got removed this way, now its nearly always. Not really. If I pay 200m toward a faction bs and then sell it for 650m then ive just added 450m isk to the game :P
Xachariah Minmatar Starship Fellows	Posted - 2007.06.30 12:03:00 - [37] Originally by: Pestachi0 Originally by: Inspiration Rev II has a new big ISK sink added to the game, but I havent read it in here. Nearly every LP shop offer requires not only LP but also quite some ISK. Before Rev II, it was only occational that ISK got removed this way, now its nearly always. Not really. If I pay 200m toward a faction bs and then sell it for 650m then ive just added 450m isk to the game :P Of course not. The 450m isk were given to you by another player and therefor did not enter the game. They were already here.
Xachariah Minmatar Starship Fellows	Posted - 2007.06.30 12:03:00 - [38] Originally by: Pestachi0 Originally by: Inspiration Rev II has a new big ISK sink added to the game, but I havent read it in here. Nearly every LP shop offer requires not only LP but also quite some ISK. Before Rev II, it was only occational that ISK got removed this way, now its nearly always. Not really. If I pay 200m toward a faction bs and then sell it for 650m then ive just added 450m isk to the game :P Of course not. The 450m isk were given to you by another player and therefor did not enter the game. They were already here.
Slick Flick	Posted - 2007.06.30 12:08:00 - [39] Good points guys. I'm to tired to try and work my brain around atm.
Slick Flick	Posted - 2007.06.30 12:08:00 - [40] Good points guys. I'm to tired to try and work my brain around atm.
Lord Saradomin Gallente Asshats and Alcoholics Soul of Fountain	Posted - 2007.06.30 12:10:00 - [41] Originally by: Slick Flick PS: This is what killed Runescape. The currency. GP was flowing in to fast because of high alching (GP coming out of thin air) just like getting isk from rat bounties. Isk coming from no where. Eventually there will be to much isk. (Yes It's an old game and the market is kind of stable now and havn't moved much) But being on the safe side never hurts. if my idea is borked, try your own. Come up with another idea to remove isk effectively and fair. Last time I checked RuneScape had just gone past a million subscribers with 8 million free accounts... yes killed it is... Even if this is the case, EVE isn't the same as many people have posted already ISK is lost on a very regular bases ****************************************** In the beginning the Universe was created, This made a lot of people angry, and has been widely regarded as a bad idea.
Lord Saradomin Gallente Asshats and Alcoholics Soul of Fountain	Posted - 2007.06.30 12:10:00 - [42] Originally by: Slick Flick PS: This is what killed Runescape. The currency. GP was flowing in to fast because of high alching (GP coming out of thin air) just like getting isk from rat bounties. Isk coming from no where. Eventually there will be to much isk. (Yes It's an old game and the market is kind of stable now and havn't moved much) But being on the safe side never hurts. if my idea is borked, try your own. Come up with another idea to remove isk effectively and fair. Last time I checked RuneScape had just gone past a million subscribers with 8 million free accounts... yes killed it is... Even if this is the case, EVE isn't the same as many people have posted already ISK is lost on a very regular bases ****************************************** In the beginning the Universe was created, This made a lot of people angry, and has been widely regarded as a bad idea.
Malcanis High4Life Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.30 12:12:00 - [43] Edited by: Malcanis on 30/06/2007 12:15:51 Originally by: Pestachi0 Originally by: Inspiration Rev II has a new big ISK sink added to the game, but I havent read it in here. Nearly every LP shop offer requires not only LP but also quite some ISK. Before Rev II, it was only occational that ISK got removed this way, now its nearly always. Not really. If I pay 200m toward a faction bs and then sell it for 650m then ive just added 450m isk to the game :P Um, no. you've added 450M ISk to your wallet, at the cost of 650M from someone elses. Net gain to YOU: 450M ISK Net loss to EvE economy: 200M ISK Net increase in the value of goods in EvE economy: 650M Result: deflation.
Malcanis High4Life Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.30 12:12:00 - [44] Edited by: Malcanis on 30/06/2007 12:15:51 Originally by: Pestachi0 Originally by: Inspiration Rev II has a new big ISK sink added to the game, but I havent read it in here. Nearly every LP shop offer requires not only LP but also quite some ISK. Before Rev II, it was only occational that ISK got removed this way, now its nearly always. Not really. If I pay 200m toward a faction bs and then sell it for 650m then ive just added 450m isk to the game :P Um, no. you've added 450M ISk to your wallet, at the cost of 650M from someone elses. Net gain to YOU: 450M ISK Net loss to EvE economy: 200M ISK Net increase in the value of goods in EvE economy: 650M Result: deflation.
E Vile	Posted - 2007.06.30 12:20:00 - [45] Originally by: Amuko Edited by: Amuko on 30/06/2007 10:18:54 Originally by: Slick Flick Originally by: Luthor Harkon big difference with runescape... not a single item in runescape gets destroyed so they all stay in the game while in eve ships , modules , pos's ,etc get blown up and it effectively removes TONS of money from the game. conclusion eve is fine its the only mmorpg i ever played that has a working economy. Not a bad argument. You got me stomped. Uhm, darn. If it's a player built item it doesn't remove money from the game. Example: Player A mines for weeks in Jita while whining about the lag, he then builds a Kestrel, and puts it up on the market (1% tax loss there...) Player B buys the Kestrel, his isk gets transfered to Player A, Player B insures his Kestrel and attacks concord and dies, instead of him losing isk, he gains isk from the insurance payout. Sure, Player B has to buy a new kestrel, but the isk never dissapeared from the game, it actually created more. Pos fuel (from npc goods) and all stuff that gets sold by NPCs are the biggest isk sinks, and so are clones, and the LP offers that cost isk as well. (could go on.. repairing, taxes etc) If this doesn't make sense then that is because I just woke up. Insurance only covers part of ship loss for T1 ships. Insurance does NOT cover Mods,Rigs, T2 ships Just think of how much ISK is removed from the game when a Titan goes pop "The key to immortality is to first live a life worth remembering."
E Vile	Posted - 2007.06.30 12:20:00 - [46] Originally by: Amuko Edited by: Amuko on 30/06/2007 10:18:54 Originally by: Slick Flick Originally by: Luthor Harkon big difference with runescape... not a single item in runescape gets destroyed so they all stay in the game while in eve ships , modules , pos's ,etc get blown up and it effectively removes TONS of money from the game. conclusion eve is fine its the only mmorpg i ever played that has a working economy. Not a bad argument. You got me stomped. Uhm, darn. If it's a player built item it doesn't remove money from the game. Example: Player A mines for weeks in Jita while whining about the lag, he then builds a Kestrel, and puts it up on the market (1% tax loss there...) Player B buys the Kestrel, his isk gets transfered to Player A, Player B insures his Kestrel and attacks concord and dies, instead of him losing isk, he gains isk from the insurance payout. Sure, Player B has to buy a new kestrel, but the isk never dissapeared from the game, it actually created more. Pos fuel (from npc goods) and all stuff that gets sold by NPCs are the biggest isk sinks, and so are clones, and the LP offers that cost isk as well. (could go on.. repairing, taxes etc) If this doesn't make sense then that is because I just woke up. Insurance only covers part of ship loss for T1 ships. Insurance does NOT cover Mods,Rigs, T2 ships Just think of how much ISK is removed from the game when a Titan goes pop "The key to immortality is to first live a life worth remembering."
Jennai The Silent Rage R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.06.30 12:28:00 - [47] Originally by: E Vile Just think of how much ISK is removed from the game when a Titan goes pop think of how much isk is inserted into the game from the default insurance payout on the titan - probably much more than the cost of the fuel put into the POS while it was building.
Malcanis High4Life Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.30 12:29:00 - [48] Originally by: Jennai Originally by: E Vile Just think of how much ISK is removed from the game when a Titan goes pop think of how much isk is inserted into the game from the default insurance payout on the titan - probably much more than the cost of the fuel put into the POS while it was building. Can you insure supercaps? I thought you couldn't because they can't dock.
Jennai The Silent Rage R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.06.30 12:34:00 - [49] pretty sure you still get the default uninsured payout on supercaps.
Iyanah Minmatar Mining Munitions and Mayhem R i s e	Posted - 2007.06.30 12:34:00 - [50] Originally by: Gloria Stitz Originally by: Jim McGregor Sure, as soon as you can reprogram yourself in real life and unlearn things. Just out of curiousity, where do you keep your clone in real life? i keep mine under my bed. @OP: the trouble with that is, you get someone who makes alot of isk anyway, and they get themselves a bunch of +4 implants, and train up the learning in 2 attributes. then they train only the skills using those atributes, and re-distribute the skill points to skills that use atributes that are much lower (and thus would've taken them much, much longer to train). in doing so, they only ever need to train one skill, siphoning off the SP to wherever else they want. ========================================== Iy please remember: I AM a sarcastic ******* and nothing i say has ever represented the thoughts or feelings of my corp, alliance, or anyone really. read
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2007.06.30 12:44:00 - [51] Must resist the urge to post .. runescape .. joke.. Yes, eve has massive inflation. Runescape is a prime example of how inflation can be measured in a game economy. Items that were dropped once only as events used to be worth under a million gp and now sell for hundreds of millions. The same can be seen in eve with event items like the guardian vexor and silver magnate. I don't even want to think what people would pay for one of the opux luxury yachts today, not that the owners would ever sell. Inflation might not be immediately visible because what most players consider "rare" items don't reflect inflation exactly. Corpum mods reflect basic supply and demand. They are destroyed in combat and created in complexes, so their rarity in the game is based entirely on the number destroyed and the number created. Their number in-game tends not to increase with any alarming frequency and the prices are based on supply and demand. In runescape, a pair of Wizard's boots (a rare drop from some kind of treasure hunt activity) costs 400k. Two years ago they also cost 400k as their supply and demand have been steady. Demand increases with the number of players in the game as this increases demand but supply is fixed and low, so a party hat is worth more and more as the number of people in the playerbase rises. The same does not apply to Wizard's boots because the supply scales with the number of players just as their demand does. Players are finding them and players are buying them at roughly equal rates to the rate they were finding them two years ago. So if you want to measure inflation in eve, don't look at corpum mods. Instead, look at event items that have no additional supply. The amount of isk people will pay for a Silver Magnate, for example, would be a good measure of relative inflation. Eve-Tanking.com - Nobody reads this slogan.
Eternus8lux8lucis Minmatar FW Inc Kith of Venal	Posted - 2007.06.30 12:53:00 - [52] Imo one of the easiest ways to create a variable isk sink is depreciation in the way of rot, maintenance or any other such destructive mean like in real life. Paid to NPCs as constant and random. Just like a car or truck suddenly the transmission goes on it. Regular maintenance like oil changes and other "wearable" parts get replaced like brakes and tires. Certain parts just simply fail. Keep this an npc regulated market and suddenly that ship that you got stashed way out in the middle of nowhere rusts away over time. So eventually youd have to repair it completely to use it again. Same could be done with modules over time. Even to 100% destruction. Where do we go from here? When theres no up and no down anymore...onward....ever onward into the vastnes of chaos till you find the light within.
Malcanis High4Life Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.30 12:54:00 - [53] Originally by: Jennai pretty sure you still get the default uninsured payout on supercaps. Ah, fair enough. I suppose that's a non-trivial amount of ISK for a supercap. Still, it's a pretty rare event.
Malcanis High4Life Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.30 13:03:00 - [54] "Yes, eve has massive inflation." Again: prove it. For the huge majority of traded items, both by volume and value, prices have fallen. for every smake-set implant that has risen by whatever percent, I'll show you 10 ships or mods that are cheaper High end "luxury" items may be more expensive, but this is another sign that the EvE economy has grown, not that it is inflating. Imagine we're playing wEeEble-online. When we started the game there were 100 weebles, and 100 weeble-tokens. One weeble cost one weeble-token. Since then, what with one thing and another, there are now 200 weeble-tokens. Oh Noes!! INFLATION!!!!1111 100 PER CENT LOLZ! wEeEble-online is dying omfg nerf weeble-hunting etc. But hist! What is this? There are also by now 250 weebles in game. The ratio of weebles to weeble-tokens has actually risen, so now it actually costs less than one weeble-token to buy a weeble. Prices are falling - strangest inflation ever...
Lumy Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2007.06.30 13:27:00 - [55] Originally by: Nyphur So if you want to measure inflation in eve, don't look at corpum mods. Instead, look at event items that have no additional supply. The amount of isk people will pay for a Silver Magnate, for example, would be a good measure of relative inflation. Sweet Jesus Christ ... It's like measuring inflation based on price of Picasso or van Gogh paintings. Clearly, you have no idea what does "inflation" mean. Please, see article on wiki for further reference.
Slick Flick	Posted - 2007.06.30 13:32:00 - [56] Originally by: Lord Saradomin Originally by: Slick Flick PS: This is what killed Runescape. The currency. GP was flowing in to fast because of high alching (GP coming out of thin air) just like getting isk from rat bounties. Isk coming from no where. Eventually there will be to much isk. (Yes It's an old game and the market is kind of stable now and havn't moved much) But being on the safe side never hurts. if my idea is borked, try your own. Come up with another idea to remove isk effectively and fair. Last time I checked RuneScape had just gone past a million subscribers with 8 million free accounts... yes killed it is... Even if this is the case, EVE isn't the same as many people have posted already ISK is lost on a very regular bases I still stick by my word and say its dead. (my brother is lvl 123) What i mean is... the items cost so much, even stupid items cost to much. A newb starting out would never reach it for a very long time.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.30 13:36:00 - [57] Originally by: Jennai Originally by: Hykke Originally by: Ralara A single large scale POS battle can cost upwards of 100s of billions of isk, gone in 24 hours. A proper war can cost trillions and trillions. Actually such fleet battle puts more isk into EVE, because insurance money is paid to participants. It's minerals that gets destoyed, not the isk. After such a battle you might see billions of isk change hands, but that's not the same as the isk are leaving EVE. a fleet battle converts minerals to isk, but POS killing removes isk because POS and their bits are bought from NPCs (not counting the new pirate POS but I don't know what's needed to build those) and they're quite expensive. All the faction POS mods/towers I've seen have a 'normal' one as one of the ingredients.
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2007.06.30 13:39:00 - [58] Originally by: Lumy Originally by: Nyphur So if you want to measure inflation in eve, don't look at corpum mods. Instead, look at event items that have no additional supply. The amount of isk people will pay for a Silver Magnate, for example, would be a good measure of relative inflation. Sweet Jesus Christ ... It's like measuring inflation based on price of Picasso or van Gogh paintings. Clearly, you have no idea what does "inflation" mean. Please, see article on wiki for further reference. Thanks for the insults but you completely missed the point. This is a game world and doesn't reflect real life economic rules correctly. When we're talking about inflation, we're talking about the amount of liquid isk that is currently in the game increasing over time. Since only the devs can ACTUALLY measure and report this figure, we have to guess based on things we can see in-game. The amount of isk someone is willing to pay for a luxury item is one measure but doesn't take supply and demand into account and since luxury items like corpum mods in eve aren't manufactured and obtaining them now involves some degree of random chance. Supply isn't consistent because the game's rules keep changing. Static complexes were moved to exploration and this will mess with the prices too much to use them as a good gague of inflation. The only items with consistent supply are unique items like event items. They will sell for as much as people who want them can reasonably afford and so are a good measure of how much isk is in the hands of rich individuals. While not a perfect model for predicting inflation, especially since prices rise with rarity (with number of players in the game), it's a darn sight better than using modules whose supply just got changed with a patch. You want to know the actual value of inflation? You'll need to get a developer to tell you. Otherwise, show me some better method of estimating it than looking at the prices of rare, desirable objects with a constant or fixed supply. Eve-Tanking.com - Nobody reads this slogan.
UGWidowmaker Caldari The Ankou The Reckoning.	Posted - 2007.06.30 13:48:00 - [59] Edited by: UGWidowmaker on 30/06/2007 13:49:04 i die so much that i am a hugh isk sink! and every time my pod dies. omfg 10 mill out the window.. and the list goes on! i even once died so many times i lost an entire skill! yes i am an isk sink.. all plz just send me some money so i can isk sink even more. OMFG I am the widowmaker stay tuned.
Lumy Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2007.06.30 14:32:00 - [60] Originally by: Nyphur Quoting this You are contradicting yourself. You claim that "only items with consistent supply are unique items like event items". Sorry, but I can't see logic how does "once in lifetime" mean "consistent supply". These are unique collector items (hence the Picasso reference), and their price only means some filthy rich guy is willing to pay outrageous amount of isk to have them in hangar, but never use them. Some of them are priceless, because of owner is not willing to part with them at any price. If you want to know, what do I consider measure of inflation in EVE economy, is price of items you need to be competetive. This means T1 and T2 ships and mods for players, capital ships and POS for corporation and alliances. The stuff you daily use.

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