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Viro Melchior	Posted - 2007.07.02 05:18:00 - [1] Edited by: Viro Melchior on 02/07/2007 05:17:16 Well, in light of my recent forum "quoted post" being locked quite promptly for "trolling", I'd like to ask a single question regarding game balance. Mostly directed to CCP, but also to BoB since they seem to know so many staff members (Devs and more). When a situation is created that gives one side an advantage over another, and yet expects both sides to play next to each other competetively, what can the "ungifted" side(s) do in order to properly even the odds (or even them enough to have a chance)? As a member of the General Population of Eve, I don't have Devs, ISD members, or really anyone but my own corp-mates MSN/ICQ/AIM/etc names to message or chat about stuff (including game mechanics, upcoming changes etc). I don't have an alliance already in place capable of fighting with all the major players. And I don't have the extra skillpoints to possibly help compensate for the first two. So how do I deal with an alliance that is aggressively expanding through 0.0 when the following hold true: If I do something against the EULA in any way during maneuvers against BoB (perhaps, say, by swearing), I risk being banned/booted/warned/etc within minutes (and therefore prevented from operating at full ability), while the BoB players are graced with sufficient time due to my having to use the petition system. There is an ever-prevelent possibilty that BoB (leadership at least) have access to game-mechanic information that is impossible to properly test for and not listed on the forums anywhere, and can use that against me while I cannot even defend against it. Their slight advantage of "future knowledge" (due to said MSN contacts) for upcoming game changes can be used to make profits in places I cannot (like if there were a case of a BPO being unseeded, they could buy tons up before it happens). So, as I asked, what is there left for me to do if I want to play EVE in 0.0 space? As the game is progressing, it WILL be overrun by BoB. And in the meantime, the fact that Devs play this game (and have been sighted in BoB and continue to be assumed to be there) and that BoB has Devs and other persons of influence over the game "hotkeyed" on MSN or other instant messengers, will continue to slant the public's eye to the existence of an "even playing field" in EVE.
Xeris Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.07.02 05:20:00 - [2] .......
X99 Z990	Posted - 2007.07.02 05:22:00 - [3] You know that kid tweak from southpark.
Viro Melchior	Posted - 2007.07.02 05:26:00 - [4] Edited by: Viro Melchior on 02/07/2007 05:25:36 Originally by: Xeris ....... And yet it's the current status of the game Xeris. BoB is winning. Even if they're doing it entirely legit, the shadow of haxploits looms overhead, and after repeated allegations of direct communication between BoB and EVE employees/volunteers along with BoB leadership admitting to their Dev MSN contacts, there is little left to comfort me should I find myself in 0.0 and a target of BoB. Everyone who fights them finds something fishy going on in the major battles, and evidence has not been put forward that there isn't something happening under the sheets. Add to that how quickly "anti-bob" threads get locked around here, and you have a culture of mistrust. So what am I able to do to have a chance if even ONE of the BoB exploits is true? Or what do I do under the circumstances of biased response speed (I use petition, BoB FC uses MSN)? Or how can I (also representing many many players of EVE facing this same situation) be convinced that these allegations are actually untrue?
Recon Jack	Posted - 2007.07.02 05:27:00 - [5] If you really want to effectively rant like this'll be a lot more effective if you go to every mmorg website and use their forums. Expecting anything constructive to come from a ccp forum is like expecting your repper to actually come on when you click it.
Richard Aiel Caldari MicroFunks	Posted - 2007.07.02 05:29:00 - [6] IBTL lock in... 3... 2... 1... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yay! I can come up with good ideas too! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=548436&page=2
Xeris Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.07.02 05:32:00 - [7] Originally by: Viro Melchior Edited by: Viro Melchior on 02/07/2007 05:25:36 Originally by: Xeris ....... And yet it's the current status of the game Xeris. BoB is winning. Even if they're doing it entirely legit, the shadow of haxploits looms overhead, and after repeated allegations of direct communication between BoB and EVE employees/volunteers along with BoB leadership admitting to their Dev MSN contacts, there is little left to comfort me should I find myself in 0.0 and a target of BoB. Everyone who fights them finds something fishy going on in the major battles, and evidence has not been put forward that there isn't something happening under the sheets. Add to that how quickly "anti-bob" threads get locked around here, and you have a culture of mistrust. So what am I able to do to have a chance if even ONE of the BoB exploits is true? Or what do I do under the circumstances of biased response speed (I use petition, BoB FC uses MSN)? Or how can I (also representing many many players of EVE facing this same situation) be convinced that these allegations are actually untrue? ......
Viro Melchior	Posted - 2007.07.02 05:32:00 - [8] Edited by: Viro Melchior on 02/07/2007 05:32:10 Originally by: Recon Jack If you really want to effectively rant like this'll be a lot more effective if you go to every mmorg website and use their forums. Expecting anything constructive to come from a ccp forum is like expecting your repper to actually come on when you click it. Ah yes, but how would I expect any response to ever come from an official source (CCP/ISD/etc) if I post on another forum? TBH, everyone in the game that cares about this issue already knows about it and is either trying to hold out (the coalitions), ignoring the issue in empire, or slowly quitting as the hopelessness seeps in. So the post's only significant value is to myself and perhaps the people who care to comment on the state and hope CCP takes ear. To everyone else it's either old news or "more anti-bob junk". Perhaps the game will change as CCP realizes the situation they've let the game reach. That's my hope. If not, I'm sure I'm not long for it (and I already know who'd get my stuff ;)).
Durao Amarr	Posted - 2007.07.02 05:33:00 - [9] I thought we resolved this last month. --- "Eat a third and drink a third and leave the remaining third of your stomach empty. Then, when you get angry, there will be sufficient room for your rage." -Babylonian Talmud
Richard Aiel Caldari MicroFunks	Posted - 2007.07.02 05:36:00 - [10] Edited by: Richard Aiel on 02/07/2007 05:35:17 Originally by: Viro Melchior Edited by: Viro Melchior on 02/07/2007 05:25:36 Originally by: Xeris ....... And yet it's the current status of the game Xeris. BoB is winning. Even if they're doing it entirely legit, the shadow of haxploits looms overhead, and after repeated allegations of direct communication between BoB and EVE employees/volunteers along with BoB leadership admitting to their Dev MSN contacts, there is little left to comfort me should I find myself in 0.0 and a target of BoB. Everyone who fights them finds something fishy going on in the major battles, and evidence has not been put forward that there isn't something happening under the sheets. Add to that how quickly "anti-bob" threads get locked around here, and you have a culture of mistrust. So what am I able to do to have a chance if even ONE of the BoB exploits is true? Or what do I do under the circumstances of biased response speed (I use petition, BoB FC uses MSN)? Or how can I (also representing many many players of EVE facing this same situation) be convinced that these allegations are actually untrue? Yer supposed to blindly believe them when they say "nothing happened" and wave their hands in a Jedilike manner... Otherwise, yer a Goon. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yay! I can come up with good ideas too! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=548436&page=2
Admus Mobius Construct Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.07.02 05:36:00 - [11] Edited by: Admus on 02/07/2007 05:35:23 God, let it die. This is nonsense. ---------------------------------------------------------- "Villains always have antidotes. They're funny that way."
Viro Melchior	Posted - 2007.07.02 05:37:00 - [12] Originally by: Durao I thought we resolved this last month. How was it resolved then? I still see new allegations of BoB haxploits (de-sync issue, which is effectively untestable on SiSi/Tran), admissions of Devs on MSN by the "winning" alliance, and plenty of other floating information that says that the game is still an unlevel playing field. If this exploit doesn't exist, CCP could simply prove it by helping people on SiSi test it, and by revealing any logs they have of the system activity in the alleged exploit occurances. Additionally, they could do several things to ease player minds like removing devs from the game, or at least putting restrictions on them. Or maybe tagging them so they are known as Devs. Or at least in that regard putting a list up publically of which corps have how many devs (a 0-1 category, 2-4, etc to keep it fuzzy enough to help protect IDs)
Richard Aiel Caldari MicroFunks	Posted - 2007.07.02 05:38:00 - [13] Edited by: Richard Aiel on 02/07/2007 05:37:01 Originally by: Viro Melchior Edited by: Viro Melchior on 02/07/2007 05:32:10 Originally by: Recon Jack If you really want to effectively rant like this'll be a lot more effective if you go to every mmorg website and use their forums. Expecting anything constructive to come from a ccp forum is like expecting your repper to actually come on when you click it. Ah yes, but how would I expect any response to ever come from an official source (CCP/ISD/etc) if I post on another forum? TBH, everyone in the game that cares about this issue already knows about it and is either trying to hold out (the coalitions), ignoring the issue in empire, or slowly quitting as the hopelessness seeps in. So the post's only significant value is to myself and perhaps the people who care to comment on the state and hope CCP takes ear. To everyone else it's either old news or "more anti-bob junk". Perhaps the game will change as CCP realizes the situation they've let the game reach. That's my hope. If not, I'm sure I'm not long for it (and I already know who'd get my stuff ;)). Yeah but the only "official" response you will see them say is either click or thread locked. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yay! I can come up with good ideas too! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=548436&page=2
Richard Aiel Caldari MicroFunks	Posted - 2007.07.02 05:41:00 - [14] Originally by: Viro Melchior Edited by: Viro Melchior on 02/07/2007 05:32:10 Originally by: Recon Jack If you really want to effectively rant like this'll be a lot more effective if you go to every mmorg website and use their forums. Expecting anything constructive to come from a ccp forum is like expecting your repper to actually come on when you click it. Ah yes, but how would I expect any response to ever come from an official source (CCP/ISD/etc) if I post on another forum? TBH, everyone in the game that cares about this issue already knows about it and is either trying to hold out (the coalitions), ignoring the issue in empire, or slowly quitting as the hopelessness seeps in. So the post's only significant value is to myself and perhaps the people who care to comment on the state and hope CCP takes ear. To everyone else it's either old news or "more anti-bob junk". Perhaps the game will change as CCP realizes the situation they've let the game reach. That's my hope. If not, I'm sure I'm not long for it (and I already know who'd get my stuff ;)). me?? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yay! I can come up with good ideas too! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=548436&page=2
Richard Aiel Caldari MicroFunks	Posted - 2007.07.02 05:41:00 - [15] Originally by: Durao Edited by: Durao on 02/07/2007 05:33:41 I thought we resolved this last month. You honestly THINK this will get resolved?? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yay! I can come up with good ideas too! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=548436&page=2
Viro Melchior	Posted - 2007.07.02 05:42:00 - [16] At which this will become just another of the "oh look CCP is covering their problems with dust and hoping they go away" threads. And I'll be sad. And I'll get on w/ my EVE life until I find a game with a company I can trust to give me a level playing field to work with.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.07.02 05:45:00 - [17] Originally by: Viro Melchior Ah yes, but how would I expect any response to ever come from an official source (CCP/ISD/etc) if I post on another forum? You expect an official response to this here? What response would you accept? Clearly you have your tinfoil hat on so any pleas of innocence you will not buy and I cannot think you expect them to come on here and say, "You know what...BoB is ALL Devs and we spawn Titans and BPOs at will...deal with it." Desynch issues affect everyone. Are you seriously suggesting BoB members have a "Desynch Target" button on their HUD?
Richard Aiel Caldari MicroFunks	Posted - 2007.07.02 05:46:00 - [18] Originally by: Viro Melchior At which this will become just another of the "oh look CCP is covering their problems with dust and hoping they go away" threads. And I'll be sad. And I'll get on w/ my EVE life until I find a game with a company I can trust to give me a level playing field to work with. Funnily enough thats almost what Oveur said... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yay! I can come up with good ideas too! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=548436&page=2
pwnedgato kleptomaniacs	Posted - 2007.07.02 05:49:00 - [19] Edited by: pwnedgato on 02/07/2007 05:48:21 this thread seems almost exactly like any of a dozen other Dev/BoB threads, and now that I think of it it is the same as the MO0 threads that popped up all the time. guess history repeats itself even in mmo's... ----- Stop whining about BoB! Leave 0.0 and find the real fun in low sec!
Richard Aiel Caldari MicroFunks	Posted - 2007.07.02 05:49:00 - [20] I think you should only be able to post to the forums with one character... none of this hiding behind my alt BS >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yay! I can come up with good ideas too! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=548436&page=2
Richard Aiel Caldari MicroFunks	Posted - 2007.07.02 05:57:00 - [21] Originally by: pwnedgato Edited by: pwnedgato on 02/07/2007 05:48:21 this thread seems almost exactly like any of a dozen other Dev/BoB threads, and now that I think of it it is the same as the MO0 threads that popped up all the time. guess history repeats itself even in mmo's... Yeah actually... Anyone that has a dev/omghaxploits BoB complex should spend a day perusing the last page of EVE-O's forums... I really dont anymore now that Ive noticed that Moo got the EXACT SAME TREATMENT >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yay! I can come up with good ideas too! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=548436&page=2
Viro Melchior	Posted - 2007.07.02 05:59:00 - [22] Edited by: Viro Melchior on 02/07/2007 05:59:18 Edited by: Viro Melchior on 02/07/2007 05:58:54 Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: Viro Melchior Ah yes, but how would I expect any response to ever come from an official source (CCP/ISD/etc) if I post on another forum? You expect an official response to this here? What response would you accept? Clearly you have your tinfoil hat on so any pleas of innocence you will not buy and I cannot think you expect them to come on here and say, "You know what...BoB is ALL Devs and we spawn Titans and BPOs at will...deal with it." Desynch issues affect everyone. Are you seriously suggesting BoB members have a "Desynch Target" button on their HUD? No, I did my best to differentiate references between fact and accusals. I believe that it is possible that BoB is winning legit. I may not like it, but it's within my realm of possibility. But there is significant circumstantial evidence to the contrary. And all CCP has done so far is lock threads, ignore problems, and otherwise just make it look like there is a problem by not addressing the possibility head on. My ears are wide open, and I hope something is said that provides actual evidence that there isn't bed sharing going on here. That would make my day and give me renewed reason to play. In response to your rather pathetic sarcasm regarding spawned titans and BPOs, that stuff is in the past (well, the "gift" mom to LV and t20 stuff). I think that has been learned from, and I sincerely hope it isn't happening (and am trusting that it isn't, I'll give CCP that much). What worries me is the "lesser" stuff, namely the information. If there IS a de-sync issue that can be manipulated by jump-in tactics, or reliably re-created at a certain number of jumpins or total pilots in system, then that information quite likely is in BoB's hands. But due to the extreme difficulty of testing anything like that, nobody else has access to it unless they also have loose-lipped friends "in the know" (Dev/BoB/whatever). You claim I'm wearing a tinfoil hat, and then reference a desync button? My claims are nowhere so ludicrous, and where I mention the allegations, I've personally thought through the methods of how they could possibly be performed. But without hundreds of people and a proper server, with days of time invested to get number information, I can't test them. But do you need a button if you know that "jumping 300 ships into a system and then fleet warping immediately to the sun causes the system to de-sync"? No, because you just jump in 300 ships, wait 30 seconds, and then jump in the rest of the fleet. BoB also has alleged "strict login procedures" following a node crash. I can't verify this as I've only ever been in one corporation. But if these login procedures affect who gets into the game first, it needs to be public knowledge because it's not something that can be tested by normal players. P.S. - Richard Aiel, please don't double-post. Edit is your friend.
pwnedgato kleptomaniacs	Posted - 2007.07.02 06:04:00 - [23] P.S can I do a p.s without an actual message before the p.s? ----- Stop whining about BoB! Leave 0.0 and find the real fun in low sec!
Alis Aquilae	Posted - 2007.07.02 06:07:00 - [24] Nice trolling. Your post isn't even worth replying too. You have NO current information that BoB has any special standings with dev, absolutely none, pure paranoia. You have no evidence of EVERYTHING in your post. You should use that thing behind your forehead. This paranoia is a bane to this forum, and more importantly the EVE online community. If you have something serious to suggest, why don't you petition it, or report it somewhere it would generate publicty? Or is CCP just that deep in with BoB that they would risk HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS to ignore this type of petition? The capitalist in me says no, not a chance. I am sure the idiot in you continues to scream yes.
pwnedgato kleptomaniacs	Posted - 2007.07.02 06:10:00 - [25] Originally by: Alis Aquilae Nice trolling. Your post isn't even worth replying too. You have NO current information that BoB has any special standings with dev, absolutely none, pure paranoia. You have no evidence of EVERYTHING in your post. You should use that thing behind your forehead. This paranoia is a bane to this forum, and more importantly the EVE online community. If you have something serious to suggest, why don't you petition it, or report it somewhere it would generate publicty? Or is CCP just that deep in with BoB that they would risk HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS to ignore this type of petition? The capitalist in me says no, not a chance. I am sure the idiot in you continues to scream yes. yet you replied... ----- Stop whining about BoB! Leave 0.0 and find the real fun in low sec!
Pilk Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.07.02 06:11:00 - [26] Places to get an official CCP responses: [email protected] [email protected] Places NOT to get an official CCP response: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=548665 --P Kosh: The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote.
Alis Aquilae	Posted - 2007.07.02 06:14:00 - [27] Originally by: pwnedgato Originally by: Alis Aquilae Nice trolling. Your post isn't even worth replying too. You have NO current information that BoB has any special standings with dev, absolutely none, pure paranoia. You have no evidence of EVERYTHING in your post. You should use that thing behind your forehead. This paranoia is a bane to this forum, and more importantly the EVE online community. If you have something serious to suggest, why don't you petition it, or report it somewhere it would generate publicty? Or is CCP just that deep in with BoB that they would risk HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS to ignore this type of petition? The capitalist in me says no, not a chance. I am sure the idiot in you continues to scream yes. yet you replied... Yes, because the post is flamebait, and because this kind of thing can give a bad impression to new players. A reply offering alternative information is pretty important. Of course, maybe this guy is right. CCP is clearly interested in secretly supporting Band of Brothers, it is a conspiracy easily up to Hellmar, I am sure they, nor their investors mind losing massive amounts of profit due to the reality of that type of situation destroying the game in a period of days, not weeks. Let us all travel lightly with large spoons ;)
Richard Aiel Caldari MicroFunks	Posted - 2007.07.02 06:16:00 - [28] Edited by: Richard Aiel on 02/07/2007 06:16:39 Originally by: Pilk Places to get an official CCP responses: [email protected] The only time Ive emailed them was a board issue and they told me to email someone else... Originally by: Pilk [email protected] NEVER emails back... Ive been waiting over a week so far Originally by: Pilk Places NOT to get an official CCP response: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=548665 More likely to get the answers here than either of those tbh --P >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yay! I can come up with good ideas too! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=548436&page=2
Viro Melchior	Posted - 2007.07.02 06:16:00 - [29] Edited by: Viro Melchior on 02/07/2007 06:19:45 Originally by: Pilk Places to get an official CCP responses: [email protected] [email protected] Places NOT to get an official CCP response: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=548665 --P Places to maybe get some response and share the response with the other players: HERE. And I don't have evidence because I don't spend my time roaming the forums and bookmarking threads (I'm sure I'm still under 100 posts in almost a year playing). I know what I've seen (including a post BY one of the BoB leaders [I can't remember which of them, dpb/dian/sirmolle (wasn't shrike)] SAYING "so what we have devs on MSN?"), but am not going to spend hours using the EVE-O search engine (which has NEVER gotten me the results I'm looking for when trying to find a specific thread). Quote: Yes, because the post is flamebait, and because this kind of thing can give a bad impression to new players. A reply offering alternative information is pretty important. Of course, maybe this guy is right. CCP is clearly interested in secretly supporting Band of Brothers, it is a conspiracy easily up to Hellmar, I am sure they, nor their investors mind losing massive amounts of profit due to the reality of that type of situation destroying the game in a period of days, not weeks. Let us all travel lightly with large spoons ;) Yes, a healthy response contradicting each point clearly and with evidence would be nice. As far as new players, take a poll of them. See how many players younger than 2 months read the forums, and it will be a nice low number. And no, I don't think CCP as a whole is trying to do this. I think a few members of their devs or other employee groups are contributing to the problem. I of course don't have direct evidence of this, only heresay. But the people in charge of carrying these lines of communication from the players are dropping the ball, or willingly letting things slide because they don't think the problem is as large as it is (or at the least, will be). Last time I "cross posted" from another forum, it was used as a reason for locking the thread, so I won't, but I have seen sufficient info regarding reporting things not properly covered by the petition system to draw the conclusion that Kieron/IA are not capable of taking care of this situation in a manner that results in the flagrant knowledge being dissiminated to the public, or the loose lipped devs/whatever being removed from their positions entirely (not just renamed like t20).
Alis Aquilae	Posted - 2007.07.02 06:18:00 - [30] Originally by: Viro Melchior Originally by: Pilk Places to get an official CCP responses: [email protected] [email protected] Places NOT to get an official CCP response: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=548665 --P Places to maybe get some response and share the response with the other players: HERE. And I don't have evidence because I don't spend my time roaming the forums and bookmarking threads (I'm sure I'm still under 100 posts in almost a year playing). I know what I've seen (including a post BY one of the BoB leaders [I can't remember which of them, dpb/dian/sirmolle (wasn't shrike)] SAYING "so what we have devs on MSN?"), but am not going to spend hours using the EVE-O search engine (which has NEVER gotten me the results I'm looking for when trying to find a specific thread). Use eve-search.com You have mentioned one thread generally regarded as being a joking comment, as evidence for this vast CCP conspiracy? This is shocking.

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