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Hotshothotshot1
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Posted - 2007.07.06 02:47:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Hotshothotshot1 on 06/07/2007 02:48:16 so what is mentioned is:
1 Caldari ships got nerfed in speed/agility due to the multi MWDing ravens.
This was balance balance by nerfing MDW to 1 mod only and making the Caldari slower.
So Caldari actually got nerfed twice, while all the other races only once(mwd)
2 Missiles used to do full damage on every class ship. Even though being caldari, This nerf was a good nerf. doing ful damage on everything is rediculous.
So caldari is the slowest, Have the worst agility. the lowest scan resolution, The highest signature radius and the slowest targeting speed. Not to mention that 1 missiles might do more damage then 1 bullet(on paper) the dps compared to guns are crap. T2 large turrets need 400 signature radius to do full damage, T2 Topedos needs 600 sig radius. So it can/might hit shield tankers fuldamage if those battleships carry a full rack of Large extenders. Or put multiple target painters on the target resulting having no shield tank
Caldari railboats sux. Other races have a nice damage bonus while we get a range bonus. But some people might think this is fair, eventhough most pvp dont happen at extreme ranges or even long ranges.
ECM got nerfed, while damps are working very very well, even on non damping bonus ships. Nos is still overpowerd.
Sounds like Caldari really got slapped in the face much. Think other players(gallente/minmatar/amarr) probably thinks its fair and other players(caldari) think its not.
But being the slowest, heaviest, least damage, either bad tank or no tackle, slowest targeting etc. race. It seems like with evenly match SP. We suck. No wonder Caldari are bad at Solo PVP.
So what do you guys think about this?? Im not very known with the ships of other races so please inform me about their problems
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Incantare
Caldari Darkness Inc.
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Posted - 2007.07.06 03:08:00 -
[62]
I think you're about to get flamed by all the minmatar and gallente who don't want to give up their easy kills, and the amarr who'd like to be as good .
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Na'Kunni
Amarr RSP Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.07.06 03:25:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Judas Lonestar Edited by: Judas Lonestar on 05/07/2007 13:55:08 Seriously, this makes no sense to me. A ship that primarily uses armor for protection should be heavier and slower then a ship that uses shields. How is it a ship with MORE armor is lighter and faster then a ship that uses some mythical no mass energy shield for protection??
For example, look at a Moa and Thorax
Mass: 13,000,000 / 12,000,000 -> Thorax Inertia Modifier: .55 / .55 -> Tie Armor: 1329 / 1641 -> Thorax Shield: 1875 / 1524 -> Moa Sig: 135 / 140 -> Moa Velocity: 175 / 180 -> Thorax
So your telling me the Thorax has more armor and bigger drone bay and is STILL faster and lighter?? The Moa has less armor, smaller sig, smaller drone bay and its greatest asset (as most Caldari gunboats go) is that it has better range. Well, how is it heavier and slower with less armor, less size and a special ability that needs range to be effective??
Now it may seem a bit strange but I'm not saying Caldari are underpowered or overpowered nor trying to make any comparisons to PVP with any other race. So please, DONT think of this as an "OMG NERF" type of thread.
I would just prefer to see the ships fly like common sense says they should. A ship with less armor, less drone bays and a mythical anargy shield is heavier and slower then a ship with a big drone bay and fat armor plates stuck on the side.....
I guess common sense aint so common.......
Try Amarr
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Rilder
Caldari THC LTD
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Posted - 2007.07.06 04:17:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Rilder on 06/07/2007 04:21:53 Whats all this stuff about missiles always hitting? I may not have uber skills in missiles but in pvp, by the time your missiles get close to a target hes either warped off, destroyed you, your fleet or your alliance. And not to mention the fact that any target thats speed tanked is pretty much immune to missiles, and if they do it. 6 damage ftl...
Visit my blog =)http://rilderslog.blogspot.com/ |
OeOeOeOeO
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Posted - 2007.07.06 04:24:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Sokratesz if they were light and fast they'd be minmatar
qft, minmatar use light weight alloys and garbage cans to make their light weight massless sheilds imba powerful.
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Don't try to shoot me down because i'm bullet proof. |
Talmssar
Caldari Raptus Regaliter Pride - Honor - Duty
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Posted - 2007.07.06 06:38:00 -
[66]
M÷h!
Caldaris are so sucky because they tend to be most agile (after minnys ofc) and needed to be nerfed that they cannot warp off after jamming cycle or something similar. Now after EW is nerfed that agilily / inertia nerf is still there. This topic pops on forums time to time but reason why caldaris are so massive / non agile is from that 3 years old nerf..
I just prefer that all have good time here. |
Jane Vladmir
Gallente Dreamscape Sparta Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.06 06:49:00 -
[67]
Originally by: NoNah ..and a sweet ew platform.
We get 3 non-tech 2 EW platforms. One which is mostly useless, and two tech 2 EW platforms, all of which are laughed at by non-EW platform ships using dampeners.
Yeah, Sweet.
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Kadoes Khan
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Posted - 2007.07.06 07:16:00 -
[68]
Would be nice to at least have the option to pick a ship more suited to fast combat for caldari. Pretty much everything seems to be built to be ranged/missiles. I'd much prefer a blaster based fast/agile ship... seems I should be training minmatar ship skills instead >_> -=^=- "Someday the world will recognize the genius in my insanity." |
Ulii
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Posted - 2007.07.06 08:03:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Hotshothotshot1 But being the slowest, heaviest, least damage, either bad tank or no tackle, slowest targeting etc. race. It seems like with evenly match SP. We suck. No wonder Caldari are bad at Solo PVP.
but with evenly matched sp you can have t2 missiles AND t2 tank and a turretbased one can have only one of those.
that of corse is neglected later on, when you have over 8-15 mill or so
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Dr Ming
Mindworks
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Posted - 2007.07.06 08:57:00 -
[70]
Look at the Crow. A super fast ship with a full sized missile rack and damage bonus and it is very overpowered.
The reason Caldari ships don't go fast is because letting dedicated missile ship (or drone ship) move fast is absurdly broken. Especially if they can mount even a half-baked shield tank while their doing it.
Caldari ships are fine. They just have ships that work better in practice than on paper.
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Tovarishch
Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.07.06 09:52:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Dr Ming Look at the Crow. A super fast ship with a full sized missile rack and damage bonus and it is very overpowered.
The reason Caldari ships don't go fast is because letting dedicated missile ship (or drone ship) move fast is absurdly broken. Especially if they can mount even a half-baked shield tank while their doing it.
Caldari ships are fine. They just have ships that work better in practice than on paper.
Yes, the Crow obviously makes up for every other Caldari shortcoming. I should have noticed that before! What have I been thinking?!
All life is sacred... until the client says otherwise. |
Ashraaf
Infinite Improbability Inc Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2007.07.06 10:54:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Tovarishch Caldari ships are massive, slow, and least agile for one reason... and one reason only -
These disadvantages are counterbalances to how amazingly imbalanced and overly effective missiles were years ago before the missile nerf. Since then Caldari ships have not been rebalanced. The penalties remain with none of the advantages.
Yes With another one, Caldari are the "best" in electronic but when it came to lock a target they're the weakest. Sure that come from the scorpion/blackbird and ECM but when you had everything that cause a problem. When you use long range, if you're slow to lock, slow to keep your range, it's a lot of handicap
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n0thing
omen. D-L
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Posted - 2007.07.06 11:18:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Jane Vladmir
Originally by: NoNah ..and a sweet ew platform.
We get 3 non-tech 2 EW platforms. One which is mostly useless, and two tech 2 EW platforms, all of which are laughed at by non-EW platform ships using dampeners.
Yeah, Sweet.
1 damper ship with almost max skills = can partially disable 2 ships in combat.
1 jammer ship with almost max skills = can jam the whole enemy roaming gang using cycle jamming technique.
get a grip. ---
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Dylatar
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.07.06 11:25:00 -
[74]
Edited by: Dylatar on 06/07/2007 11:27:16
Originally by: Pinky Denmark ... who cares if the ships weigh more... It's a vessel for 0-grav environments ...
Just to get it right .... don't mix weight and mass. In zero-g an object doesn't have a weight, but it still has its full mass. So all physics applying to the mass still apply in zero-g. Weight is only an effect of gravity in interaction with the mass that causes an object to fall towards an object with gravity, and causes you to need power to lift it away from gravity.
In zero-g you still need power to accelerate, brake down, and turn an object, depending to its mass. The more mass, the more power is needed. ;) Sure, it has no weight, but that doesn't mean that it's mass don't play a role.
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welsh wizard
0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.07.06 11:39:00 -
[75]
I think that perhaps there are a few ships in the Caldari lineup that are hindered a little too much by their weight.
The Drake, lower lock range, close range weapon system, maybe it should be light and manoeuverable?
The Scorpion is hopeless in any offensive capacity (with the obvious exception). It isn't going to kill anything on its own but its always one of the first to pop and can't put up much of a defence (if any, now that its lows are filled with ECM damage mods). If it has no destructive capability then perhaps it should be turned into a ship specialised at staying alive? "It can jam its aggressors and warp out!" On paper perhaps but not in Eve.
The Raptor is designed as a tackler but is worse at it than its big brother because its slow and heavy. There is no point in flying this ship, especially not since the Crow price drop with invention. It's becoming obsolete. It should get 3 highs with 3 turret slots & one extra mid along with a weight reduction.
The gunboats, (apart from lacking guns) in terms of weight are pretty good atm if you ask me. Quite happy to see the Rokh turn like a barn if it can hit for full damage from greater distances than anything else.
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E'rdeh
Caldari Enterprise Estonia Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.07.06 11:46:00 -
[76]
caldari has to suck at everything, thats the reason. My main has 55m sp and can fly all caldari ships with maxed missiles and ew and I STILL USE MINMATAR SHIPS. Honestly, tell me when you last saw a scrop in a fleet fight? Before ecm nerf there used to be like 10-20% scorps in every fleet now you are lucky if you even see 1.
--
Sig removed, please keep it below 24000 bytes, email [email protected] if you have any questions - Xorus
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n0thing
omen. D-L
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Posted - 2007.07.06 11:46:00 -
[77]
Originally by: welsh wizard I think that perhaps there are a few ships in the Caldari lineup that are hindered a little too much by their weight.
The Drake, lower lock range, close range weapon system, maybe it should be light and manoeuverable?
The Scorpion is hopeless in any offensive capacity (with the obvious exception). It isn't going to kill anything on its own but its always one of the first to pop and can't put up much of a defence (if any, now that its lows are filled with ECM damage mods). If it has no destructive capability then perhaps it should be turned into a ship specialised at staying alive? "It can jam its aggressors and warp out!" On paper perhaps but not in Eve.
The Raptor is designed as a tackler but is worse at it than its big brother because its slow and heavy. There is no point in flying this ship, especially not since the Crow price drop with invention. It's becoming obsolete. It should get 3 highs with 3 turret slots & one extra mid along with a weight reduction.
The gunboats, (apart from lacking guns) in terms of weight are pretty good atm if you ask me. Quite happy to see the Rokh turn like a barn if it can hit for full damage from greater distances than anything else.
If caldari gets all the ships with issues fixed, I demand that Exequror, Ares, Enyo, Deimos get boosted too.
Each race has ships with problems, and the numbers are almost equal apart from Amarr maybe. ---
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NIkis
Minmatar W33D Corp. O X I D E
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Posted - 2007.07.06 12:09:00 -
[78]
Edited by: NIkis on 06/07/2007 12:16:07
Originally by: Ghosthound To the topic OP: It's not about mass or shield... There is no point in trying to compare or to explain. Its just smbdy in CCP realy hates caldari. Thats it. No joke. I couldnt find any other explanation.
Yea I suspect the same... this is too much an oversight to be random. Someone at CCP got bored of their pretty Caldari toys, forgetting anything about balance.
Originally by: madaluap They will nano their ships than orbit enemy with enough meds to use damps and never missing weapons. That is what will happen.
Excuse me.. hasn't this already happened? With basically ALL races ships EXCEPT caldari ? (due to low slots deficiency and low drone bay - if any). Guess you didn't play eve at all during the last year, but the most efficient nano ships were (and still are to some extent) gallente drone boats and curse.
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welsh wizard
0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.07.06 12:17:00 -
[79]
Edited by: welsh wizard on 06/07/2007 12:26:59 Edited by: welsh wizard on 06/07/2007 12:17:26
Originally by: n0thing
Originally by: welsh wizard I think that perhaps there are a few ships in the Caldari lineup that are hindered a little too much by their weight.
The Drake, lower lock range, close range weapon system, maybe it should be light and manoeuverable?
The Scorpion is hopeless in any offensive capacity (with the obvious exception). It isn't going to kill anything on its own but its always one of the first to pop and can't put up much of a defence (if any, now that its lows are filled with ECM damage mods). If it has no destructive capability then perhaps it should be turned into a ship specialised at staying alive? "It can jam its aggressors and warp out!" On paper perhaps but not in Eve.
The Raptor is designed as a tackler but is worse at it than its big brother because its slow and heavy. There is no point in flying this ship, especially not since the Crow price drop with invention. It's becoming obsolete. It should get 3 highs with 3 turret slots & one extra mid along with a weight reduction.
The gunboats, (apart from lacking guns) in terms of weight are pretty good atm if you ask me. Quite happy to see the Rokh turn like a barn if it can hit for full damage from greater distances than anything else.
If caldari gets all the ships with issues fixed, I demand that Exequror, Ares, Enyo, Deimos get boosted too.
Each race has ships with problems, and the numbers are almost equal apart from Amarr maybe.
The Ares is pap in much the same way as the raptor but it is quick.
The Exerqueror is easily the most popular tier I cruiser which suggests to me thats its just fine, its a fantastic cruiser based hauler. (exception Osprey may be more popular but only because its 'My First Mining ShipÖ')
The Enyo is the most damaging assault frigate with a realistic setup and is still deadly with rails. Not seeing where you're coming from here? You also have the Ishkur which flattens all the others hands down.
The Diemos is too heavy and as such is perhaps the only ship in your list that is anything to do with the topic at hand. :E
Gallente have ships that aren't so popular but they're fewer and less severe than Amarr & Caldari. Anyway this is a thread about Caldari ships! :P
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar Guardians of the Dawn Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.06 12:52:00 -
[80]
To everyone that thinks you have a ship that sucks.. i have only one word for you:
BELLICOSE!
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough |
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Judas Lonestar
Ganja Labs Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.06 16:22:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Dr Ming Look at the Crow. A super fast ship with a full sized missile rack and damage bonus and it is very overpowered.
The reason Caldari ships don't go fast is because letting dedicated missile ship (or drone ship) move fast is absurdly broken. Especially if they can mount even a half-baked shield tank while their doing it.
Caldari ships are fine. They just have ships that work better in practice than on paper.
Let me put it this way.
Gallente are drone specialized. Should they have the smallest drone bays?
Now apply it to this. Caldari are range specialized. Should we have the slowest ships?
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar Guardians of the Dawn Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.06 16:28:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Judas Lonestar
Originally by: Dr Ming Look at the Crow. A super fast ship with a full sized missile rack and damage bonus and it is very overpowered.
The reason Caldari ships don't go fast is because letting dedicated missile ship (or drone ship) move fast is absurdly broken. Especially if they can mount even a half-baked shield tank while their doing it.
Caldari ships are fine. They just have ships that work better in practice than on paper.
Let me put it this way.
Gallente are drone specialized. Should they have the smallest drone bays?
Now apply it to this. Caldari are range specialized. Should we have the slowest ships?
your logic lacks fundamentation.
Drone space is direclty linked to drones.
Speed is not directly linked to long range range.
Dictating range is matari role, having the best range is caldari role, being uber at close range is gallente role. Good rane and damage was supposed to be ammar role (ok have a bit of a problem)
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough |
Murehz
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Posted - 2007.07.06 16:31:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon To everyone that thinks you have a ship that sucks.. i have only one word for you:
BELLICOSE!
I love that ship.
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Derovius Vaden
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Posted - 2007.07.06 16:50:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Judas Lonestar Edited by: Judas Lonestar on 05/07/2007 13:55:08 Seriously, this makes no sense to me. A ship that primarily uses armor for protection should be heavier and slower then a ship that uses shields. How is it a ship with MORE armor is lighter and faster then a ship that uses some mythical no mass energy shield for protection??
For example, look at a Moa and Thorax
Mass: 13,000,000 / 12,000,000 -> Thorax Inertia Modifier: .55 / .55 -> Tie Armor: 1329 / 1641 -> Thorax Shield: 1875 / 1524 -> Moa Sig: 135 / 140 -> Moa Velocity: 175 / 180 -> Thorax
So your telling me the Thorax has more armor and bigger drone bay and is STILL faster and lighter?? The Moa has less armor, smaller sig, smaller drone bay and its greatest asset (as most Caldari gunboats go) is that it has better range. Well, how is it heavier and slower with less armor, less size and a special ability that needs range to be effective??
Now it may seem a bit strange but I'm not saying Caldari are underpowered or overpowered nor trying to make any comparisons to PVP with any other race. So please, DONT think of this as an "OMG NERF" type of thread.
I would just prefer to see the ships fly like common sense says they should. A ship with less armor, less drone bays and a mythical anargy shield is heavier and slower then a ship with a big drone bay and fat armor plates stuck on the side.....
I guess common sense aint so common.......
Myself vs. My 1998 Ford Ranger XLT
Mass: 58.9670081 kg / 2,159.09968 kg -> Me Inertia Modifer: Adidas Sneakers / Motormaster All Season Radials -> Ranger Armor: Cotton/Polyester Blend / Fibreglass -> Ranger Shield: 0.25 correction eyewear / 1/4 inch safety glass -> Ranger Sig: 5'10" H - 1'2" W / 187.519685" H - 70.3149606" W -> Me Velocity: 4 km/h /w a good motivation. / 180 km/h -> Ranger
My truck not only goes faster and is capable of colliding head on with a another vehicle and living (I cannot claim the same, for the same vehicle) going 80 km/h. OMG, NERF MA TRUCKZ!
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madaluap
Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence
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Posted - 2007.07.06 16:57:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Tovarishch
Originally by: Dr Ming Look at the Crow. A super fast ship with a full sized missile rack and damage bonus and it is very overpowered.
The reason Caldari ships don't go fast is because letting dedicated missile ship (or drone ship) move fast is absurdly broken. Especially if they can mount even a half-baked shield tank while their doing it.
Caldari ships are fine. They just have ships that work better in practice than on paper.
Yes, the Crow obviously makes up for every other Caldari shortcoming. I should have noticed that before! What have I been thinking?!
Well the same thing goes for the dominix. But you have a ubernos boat!!11!1 _________________________________________________ Breetime
A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA |
Tovarishch
Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.07.06 19:40:00 -
[86]
Originally by: madaluap
Originally by: Tovarishch
Originally by: Dr Ming Look at the Crow. A super fast ship with a full sized missile rack and damage bonus and it is very overpowered.
The reason Caldari ships don't go fast is because letting dedicated missile ship (or drone ship) move fast is absurdly broken. Especially if they can mount even a half-baked shield tank while their doing it.
Caldari ships are fine. They just have ships that work better in practice than on paper.
Yes, the Crow obviously makes up for every other Caldari shortcoming. I should have noticed that before! What have I been thinking?!
Well the same thing goes for the dominix. But you have a ubernos boat!!11!1
Oh, absolutely! We all know that Gallente ships are horribly unpopular right now... and have all sorts of shortcomings. Particularly in PVP.
All life is sacred... until the client says otherwise. |
Dr Ming
Mindworks
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Posted - 2007.07.06 19:53:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Tovarishch Yes, the Crow obviously makes up for every other Caldari shortcoming. I should have noticed that before! What have I been thinking?!
The problem is your either not thinking, or your really bad at it.
Allow me to spell it out for you... If all Caldari ships were fast, they would all be overpowered solopwn mobiles like the crow is.
I mean seriously how can you fail to understand this? Do you even begin to understand why Nanophoons and Nanodomis got nerfed?
If you want to go fast, fly Minmatar since their weapon systems are balanced around going fast, unlike the Caldari.
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Tovarishch
Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.07.06 19:59:00 -
[88]
Edited by: Tovarishch on 06/07/2007 20:00:15
Originally by: Dr Ming
Originally by: Tovarishch Yes, the Crow obviously makes up for every other Caldari shortcoming. I should have noticed that before! What have I been thinking?!
The problem is your either not thinking, or your really bad at it.
Allow me to spell it out for you... If all Caldari ships were fast, they would all be overpowered solopwn mobiles like the crow is.
I mean seriously how can you fail to understand this? Do you even begin to understand why Nanophoons and Nanodomis got nerfed?
If you want to go fast, fly Minmatar since their weapon systems are balanced around going fast, unlike the Caldari.
Numbered list time -
1. Personal insults over the Internet are reserved for children.
2. You apparently haven't read anything I've written in this thread. I not once stated that Caldari ships should be fast. If you had read what I've written you would know this to be true.
3. Read the thread linked below and please tell me that I haven't thought these problems out.
Link to thread
PS. It's 'you're'... not 'your'.
All life is sacred... until the client says otherwise. |
Dr Ming
Mindworks
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Posted - 2007.07.06 20:20:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Judas Lonestar
Originally by: Dr Ming Look at the Crow. A super fast ship with a full sized missile rack and damage bonus and it is very overpowered.
The reason Caldari ships don't go fast is because letting dedicated missile ship (or drone ship) move fast is absurdly broken. Especially if they can mount even a half-baked shield tank while their doing it.
Caldari ships are fine. They just have ships that work better in practice than on paper.
Let me put it this way.
Gallente are drone specialized. Should they have the smallest drone bays?
Now apply it to this. Caldari are range specialized. Should we have the slowest ships?
Yes you should have the slowest ships. Range does not mean you get speed. It isn't some sort of video game law. If you want to go fast: Train Minmatar.
The range of Caldari weapons removes their need to go fast. Its this whole 'more than one way to skin a cat' thing.
Honestly, I think the problem with Caldari pilots is they do the standard nub entry path of doing PvE to make some starting money, and think that level of ship performace is somehow normal, and then pitch a snit-fit when they actually have to deal with the games actual combat mechanics that they have been bypassing 90% of.
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Incantare
Caldari Darkness Inc.
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Posted - 2007.07.06 20:30:00 -
[90]
Edited by: Incantare on 06/07/2007 20:30:34
There's problems with that argument. Caldari ships have range yes but:
1) Fleet battles excepted, most combat happens at short range.
2) Caldari cannot maintain range due to their mass, so once a gallente ship (for example) closes, they are purely at a disadvantage.
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