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Bobby Atlas Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.08 22:03:00 - [31] As unbiased as possible here is the battle report from ATLAS Alliances perspective with context surrounding the hostilities between the parties involved. We have been fighting NMTZ and there associates for about 2 weeks now with mostly modest skirmishes between both sides up until recently. The dominant forces for both sides are, over in the red corner Atlas Alliance & Chaos Incarnate and in the blue corner NMTZ, 5th Colum, Electus Matari and a basket of other people that I have lost track of but represented no serious numbers in any engagements. The predominant escalation of involvement for ATLAS alliance in the operations against NMTZ came when they had a suicide typhoon with smart bombs attempt to bomb a rather large empire ice mining operation, which came off with limited success but still left distaste within the ranks to seek revenge. Similarly our members also enjoy the casual PvP we find flying alongside CHAOS so we mutually represent each others interests. As such began the escalation of conflicts the last 5 days with multiple nmtz & friend pos's put into reinforced mode/destroyed by joint CHAOS & ATLAS fleets. During these operations little resistance was met or when resistance was found the enemy opted to withdraw due to superior numbers or capitals. After the loss of multiple pos's of various sizes with-in the hedaleolfarber solar system of molden heath, the enemy went on the offensive hitting the only asset of CHAOS/ATLAS they could find - a small staging pos inside hedaleolfarber which was put into reinforced mode. In addition while the POS was being put into reinforced mode it appears as though 2 chaos dreadnaughts undocked from a local station where they had logged off from late operations the previous evening, something occurred to these dreads which I can not speak to but they were reported killed in action by CHOAS. Later this day CHAOS reported to ATLAS there was a small pos exiting reinforced mode - nothing spectacular, only a small pos but both CHAOS and ATLAS felt it would serve as a good facilitator to an engagement. So the operation was underway to save the pos and wipe out the enemy support fleet that no doubt would setup to camp the system and prevent our entrance. With 30 minutes before the pos was to exit reinforced mode, intel reported that the hedaleolfarber solar system had 65 people in local with most of them consisting of NMTZ aligned corporations and a sizable camp on the entry gate. Further intel served notice the enemy had 18 battleships and 3 carriers as notable resistance with the rest being smaller or handful of t2 ships. We knew from the get-go when intel came in this was going to be a lagged down battle to some degree as our gang was already up to 46 so certain measures were put into our camp-busting plan to move as much of the "lag" burden towards the enemy instead of ourselves. With capitals on stand-by, support fleet on the hedaleolfarber gate in gonheim and cyno ship already within the system we took stock and jumped into the solar system. Having considered the jump-in lag already the fleet was ordered to stay cloaked and allow some time for the grid to load, there after cyno ship warped in and lit the cyno at the same time as the FC conducted a fleet "regroup" command to uncloak the fleet all at once (and probably causing considerable grid-lock for the enemy). The battle then ensued as 12 blue capitals jumped into system and a number undocked from local and attempted to warp to the gate. Nobody will argue the fight turned quickly into a slide show but our FC's being experienced pushed through this hurdle and voice comms were orderly as the enemy fleet was laid to rest. The battle lasted less than 10 minutes with a number of the enemy fleet withdrawing into warp leaving many to die. In the end CHAOS/ATLAS held the field taking home some very nice loot with minimal losses. As it stands according to kill boards losses for CHAOS/ATLAS are 7 and NMTZ&CO 22.
Cz Ire Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.07.08 22:12:00 - [32] Edited by: Cz Ire on 08/07/2007 22:12:28 yep, thats pretty much how it went. our FC's called for a retreat after it became apparent we wouldnt be able to do any significant damage, but most of our ships were unable to warp out (it seems that navigation and targeting were the 2 most bugged systems during this engagement - I know i could activate all my modules with limited lag, but couldnt change course in the slightest) after that, it was just the CI/Atlas gang picking us off. I think that your theory on the CI/atlas gang simultanously uncloaking causing a lag spike for us may have played a major factor - im noticing that your capitals are on a lot of the killmails. your capitals that arrived after the main body must have had an easier time of it. (again, im not saying you did this deliberatly, it was just sound tactics that should always have been used.) either that or the fighters could tell when a ship was dead and moved on to the next one. another major factor in this is that our side are not used to large scale combats like this - we are skirmish specialists/pirate hunters, so CI/atlas definatly have an experiance advantage. Learning experiance for us, the hard way oh, and for the record, my FPS was fine, just lag. --- "They saw the long road, the harder road. The road that would ensure what we had gained in the vicious rebellion would not be squandered... our freedom." - Republic Fleet Admiral Kanth Filmir
SolarKnight Gallente ORIGIN SYSTEMS Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.08 22:13:00 - [33] Edited by: SolarKnight on 08/07/2007 22:13:56 I don't post here often, OS is banned from posting here due to me not wanting to drag my corp into a flamefest. But I will say, it was an awesome fight, if the lag wasnt as bad, it would have been a lot more fun, but props to NMTZ and friends for bringing it, it's been a lot of fun fighting you guys. See you in space. EDIT: From my perspective, i had to relog 3 times i lagged out so badly, and I was in one of the capitals. The Light in the Darkness http://Origin.zapto.org
Natalia Fachiri Minmatar Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.07.08 22:29:00 - [34] Could have been a good fight. I wont say who would have won or wouldnt, as I really didnt know what the hell was happening one minute after combat was initiated. CI and Atlas did bring a lot of capitals, but we had some of those babies on standby too. If the battle had been allowed to unfold without lag, I tihnk it would have cost both sides quite a lot of money. Onto the battle from my point of view: I tried locking primaries as they were called. After the first 2 went down (wich is to mean I lost lock on them but they were still showing in my overview) I was unable to lock any further targets because they either were out of range while appearing within lock range, or destroyed but still in my overview. When I started taking damage without any appearant source (no target indicators that I could see) I tried to warp out. That did nothing. I stayed in place at 0m/s and could not move. Thats when I relogged. I found myself at the planet I had chosen to warp to, with considerable armor damage. I tried to rejoin the fight but as I wasnt ganged any more I could only warp to gate. Once I was there I warped right back out because the order was given to withdraw.
Cz Ire Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.07.08 23:06:00 - [35] Originally by: SolarKnight Edited by: SolarKnight on 08/07/2007 22:13:56 props to NMTZ and friends for bringing it, it's been a lot of fun fighting you guys. See you in space. EDIT: From my perspective, i had to relog 3 times i lagged out so badly, and I was in one of the capitals. props back at you - I honestly didnt think you guys would come through a gate with that many on it, im impressed. And props for keeping this war mostly flame-free, a pleasant change after the likes of certain others weve fought against. Guess that throws my capital theory out the window, if you capitals had it that bad. --- "They saw the long road, the harder road. The road that would ensure what we had gained in the vicious rebellion would not be squandered... our freedom." - Republic Fleet Admiral Kanth Filmir
Flinx Evenstar Minmatar Spartan Industries Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2007.07.08 23:42:00 - [36] Originally by: Lasakywa FPS has nothing to do with lag. The Truth ^^ But I would rather have the old fashioned fleet battles at 12FPS with 100v100, than watch my desync at 70FPS with 60 in local. I can kill ships while I am gate cloaked, and be killed by ships that are 40AU away....welcome to REV 2 I, erm, like kill things and stuff
Gaven Lok'ri Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.08 23:55:00 - [37] Originally by: Tassi The nodes in molden heath appear to be VERY unhealthy. The "lag" in molden heath is FPS lag, 1 frame per second even with fights like 30 vs 30. It is really destroying all the fun. Pretty much. Molden Heath has some rather serious issues. Having lovely little realities like people desyncing in a engagement with less than 20 ships involved total makes things annoying. Deus Vult! PIE Website Public Channel: 'PIE Public'
Boonaki Caldari Knights of Chaos Chaos Incarnate.	Posted - 2007.07.09 11:03:00 - [38] Here are some things that add lag. 15 people with drones out before we jumped in. Each objects generates data that each client must receive. Add in ships plus movement distributed to all in that grid, the node can only handle so much. When we jumped our carriers in and launched fighters it really caused the node to come to a halt. Add in turrets and damage, my guess is the node was capped at bandwidth. Fear the Ibis of doom! 113
DimiTrip Gallente Red Dwarf Mining Corps 5th Column	Posted - 2007.07.09 11:10:00 - [39] I started to shoot at the first primery target - when saw that i am being locked... then everything froze up. At some point i lost all the buttons and armor/shield/cap indicators. was only clear screen - and i clearly seen my ship sitting at one place. I tried to get some killz after i relogged couple of times on smaller ship - but still was too lagged - could not warp or do anything. Took up to a minute for right-click to open any window. Anyway GF - and we will do it more times i guess... hopefully CCP will understand that MH needs more resources. For now some ppl use to refer Molden Heath region as ghetto. Any ccp reply here would be nice. And i will not be surprised that petitions will get an answer like: Dear (fill your name), after we checked all logs we seen no problem server side. we sorry for your loss..... [url=http://5thcolumn.info/killboard/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=37699] [/url]
Silvestri Knights of Chaos Chaos Incarnate.	Posted - 2007.07.09 12:10:00 - [40] Well, I had fun. Lag didn't start off bad for me when I jumped in. I wasn't in the initial gang. I minimized my overview, set my settings because I knew what I was getting into....Made sure I had enough ammo for my hurricane and jumped in....right off the bat I was over 200 thousand km from gonheim gate....uuuummmmmmkk... Warp to gate at 100...still not getting picked up into gang I landed on Darth daDude's Raven....after pts, nos, all guns on him I finally got picked up in gang. Moved to primaries, ran over a caracal on the way. Think some sort of destroyer. Then a suicide shuttle tried to lock me....I laughed. I was able to fly around and hit stuff...but when everyone tried to flee and the wrecks were everywhere that's when lag hit. So many wrecks. Rebooted my cpu twice. Second time I zoomed all the way out and minimized my overview. Warped to a SS and hit the station to collect an undocking Deimos we bumped. Look forward to more fights. Really should learn to adjust your setting accordingly to prevent lag. I don't think anyone in the fight has been in major battles. I'm fairly new to Chaos Incarnate but I'm having a blast. I'm fortunate enough to have learned from my IAC vs. ISS and IAC vs. MC days.... Bah....nuff ramble... Let's do more pew pew!!!!!!
Boonaki Caldari Knights of Chaos Chaos Incarnate.	Posted - 2007.07.09 12:29:00 - [41] There are many ways to reduce lag, you can find them out on the forums. But I really do think the lag was from the node ether overtaxed or not enough bandwidth to the clients. Fear the Ibis of doom! 113
Bobby Atlas Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.09 12:37:00 - [42] As the previous poster stated, having client settings adjusted for large fleet battles will most often afford you a reasonable level of control to be effective in combat despite the "lag", be it client or server side. I think I speak for most of ATLAS when I say that despite this being a large engagement it was by no means as large as the engagements many of us have been part of in 0.0 fleet operations. I think part-in-part the problem was more that this type of engagement had no place in empire and was more suited to the depths of 0.0. Further did this conflict need a COAD post? certainly not but it is here nonetheless.
Alski Gallente Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.09 13:09:00 - [43] Bah, missed it all due to pulling a 26 hour Eve binge right before it started and subseqentley passing out. Sounds like i missed an entertaining fight, dispite the lag - (combat) Patch belonging to CCP hits your drones, wrecking their liberty and freedom.
Janus Ovellian Minmatar Encina Technologies Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.07.09 14:02:00 - [44] Aw man... Wish I could have been there. Lag or no... Interesting times await...
Bossebootes Minmatar Universal Exports Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.07.09 14:36:00 - [45] Bobby Atlas: Wrote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The predominant escalation of involvement for ATLAS alliance in the operations against NMTZ came when they had a suicide typhoon with smart bombs attempt to bomb a rather large empire ice mining operation, which came off with limited success but still left distaste within the ranks to seek revenge. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is an act of piracy and I cannot see it being commited by a member of the NMTZ. I personally view such acts with distaste. And if you can prove this vile act was commited by a member of NMTZ. I will personally pay for the victims losses to the best of my ability. I also will add the cause of the current state of near war, between our two alliances were the initial acts of aggresion by members of your alliance, you killed first.So you are set to Red and are valid targets whenever you venture into low sec. I have no problem with that at all. The lag fest, my ship was killed at 19:17 eve time. It was still on screen when I was pod killed at 19:26 eve time, in that nine minutes I was unable to warp or move, and my ship was visible on screen for all that time, I never became an egg, make of that what you wish.
Bobby Atlas Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.09 15:29:00 - [46] Originally by: Bossebootes Bobby Atlas: Wrote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The predominant escalation of involvement for ATLAS alliance in the operations against NMTZ came when they had a suicide typhoon with smart bombs attempt to bomb a rather large empire ice mining operation, which came off with limited success but still left distaste within the ranks to seek revenge. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is an act of piracy and I cannot see it being commited by a member of the NMTZ. I personally view such acts with distaste. And if you can prove this vile act was commited by a member of NMTZ. I will personally pay for the victims losses to the best of my ability. I also will add the cause of the current state of near war, between our two alliances were the initial acts of aggresion by members of your alliance, you killed first.So you are set to Red and are valid targets whenever you venture into low sec. I have no problem with that at all. The lag fest, my ship was killed at 19:17 eve time. It was still on screen when I was pod killed at 19:26 eve time, in that nine minutes I was unable to warp or move, and my ship was visible on screen for all that time, I never became an egg, make of that what you wish.
Evanda Char Minmatar Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.07.09 15:58:00 - [47] The main point of this thread isn't a battle report, it's to report that Molden Heath is broken. It's bascially impossible to carry any sort of engagement bigger than half a dozen ships that involves one side or the other coming through a gate. The moment gate cloaks drop, people start desyncing en masse. Target ships still show long after they've exploded, damage doesn't update on your target view, while modules don't activate or deactivate, ships don't turn and keep flying off into the middle of nowhere, or orbit things even your own hideous broken client admits aren't there anymore. And then the petitions - from one engagement which pretty much seemed to break the node, half our people had reimbursements, and the other half didn't, when all of us had exactly the same problem. Please, please, please, all you lovely hardware guys out there, can we have a little more power to Molden Heath and Heimatar so we can shoot each other nicely? -Eva- Electus Matari - taking it one bad guy at a time
Bobby Atlas Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.09 16:16:00 - [48] Edited by: Bobby Atlas on 09/07/2007 16:16:27 It was asked from someone for a battle report, so I gave one as unbiased as possible. Likewise there are more appropriate forum subsections than COAD for venting opinions on "lag" or "desyncs", if that was the only intention of this thread. All said and done despite the majority of our fleet experiencing awful "lag" or "desyncs", we were able to maintain relative combat control of the situation due to experience and overwhelming force. The petitioning of the losses is a right you are afforded by CCP but does it mean it is justified, certainly up for interpretation - welcome to fleet warfare, you got owned. As has previously been said, combat of this scale is more suited to the depths of 0.0 where nodes are less burdened and fights can generally be more robust and orderly for all involved. I do not for a minute expect of any empire location to sustain reliable 100+ player involved engagements, there just simply too much "clutter" in empire on nodes to sustain that kind of warfare imo.
Capt Rapace ORIGIN SYSTEMS Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.09 16:35:00 - [49] In all my time in INFOD FC' and other places - this was the first time ive had to ask if targets are 'lockable' =D I could still see 35 on my overview and in space when only three where left. Thanks for holding your ground in BS and so NMTZ/5THC/EM rather than the 40 cruisers we as INFOD had to deal with last time, the lag ruined a truly enjoyable fight. For the most accurate picture of the fight you can check out ATLAS' related losses section of the killboard; http://killboard.atlas-alliance.com/?a=kill_related&kll_id=305 Pretty accurate, but does not have the few losses CHAOS took on the board, so add 4-5 losses in contingency. All in all good fight, but both sides had extremely bad lag not just one, so without excuse it was a clear victory for ATLAS/CHAOS forces. Thanks, Rapace [OS] ATLAS Internal Security And Affairs Officer Your signature image exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo
Arkady Sadik Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.07.11 04:51:00 - [50] Originally by: Bobby Atlas I do not for a minute expect of any empire location to sustain reliable 100+ player involved engagements, there just simply too much "clutter" in empire on nodes to sustain that kind of warfare imo. As has been said before, this isn't just about this one engagement. We had multiple other engagements with similar effects, one of them with little as 20 vs. 13 ships. This is a general problem of the area, and as it tends to see more and more fights, it would be nice to have a bit more processing power. And yes, this shouldn't be in COAD. PS. I do agree that such engagements belong to 0.0. An alliances that can field that many capitals shouldn't be pirating a 0.4 system. Now, shoo, get out. :-) Still like you around.

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