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desyncs/lag..explain please.

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oodin R.A.G.N.A.R.O.K.	Posted - 2007.07.10 13:54:00 - [1] i know ofc what lag is as do all in eve but can someone explain desyncs and how it affects the fight/difference between lag/desyncs
Winterblink Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.07.10 14:08:00 - [2] Essentially, your client thinks it's doing something, but the server thinks you're doing something else. Hence, desync(hronized). Example would be you seeing someone not moving on your screen when in fact they are. Or you not seeing someone shooting you, when in fact you've already been podded as far as the server's concerned. warp drive active \| nature vraie
Le Cook Amarr Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.07.10 14:27:00 - [3] In the past the famous "u have to be within 1500m of the cargo container", while your client shows that u are sitting right on top of it, happend very often. This problem was caused by dataloss in the deepth of the internet when your client and the server was communicating, and the connection was not very smooth. Lately this is getting even worse especialy during pvp engagements, when people for example warp of ( on their client ) but they never did, because the server never got the warp off command, or if they try to activate range limited weapons like nos, webber, scrambler, ... and cant because the oponent is farer away then he is shown at your client. And there is no way to Resync your client when its running, the only way is to restart your client.
oodin R.A.G.N.A.R.O.K.	Posted - 2007.07.11 13:52:00 - [4] tnx guys..desyncs are a ebil little bugger
L0st S0ul	Posted - 2007.07.11 13:58:00 - [5] So if you warped into a system and there was 24npc's all trying to lock onto to, your screen froze and then when it came back your ship was destroyed, is that lag or desync ?
solbright altaltalt Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.07.11 14:03:00 - [6] Originally by: L0st S0ul So if you warped into a system and there was 24npc's all trying to lock onto to, your screen froze and then when it came back your ship was destroyed, is that lag or desync ? Neither. That is stutter. Stutter is the client bogging down on newly arrived data from the server.
L0st S0ul	Posted - 2007.07.11 14:12:00 - [7] Originally by: solbright altaltalt Originally by: L0st S0ul So if you warped into a system and there was 24npc's all trying to lock onto to, your screen froze and then when it came back your ship was destroyed, is that lag or desync ? Neither. That is stutter. Stutter is the client bogging down on newly arrived data from the server. I got reimbursed for that loss but it is a fault with a lvl 2 mission I think. If your ship is not strong enough it won't survive the 24 npc's locking on, i'm guessing CCP know about it otherwise they wouldn't give my ship back.
Aaron	Posted - 2007.07.11 14:15:00 - [8] While were on the subject of lag and desync, I believe the only way to solve this is to implement technology similar to Microsoft's Terminal Services. Terminal Services on a normal business network allows a user to log in to a server From any location worldwide, All processing of data takes place on the Server only. The ONLY data that would be transferred accross the internet is screen updates, keyboard strokes, and mouse info. Eve is a very very very technical game, that has lots of variables that need to be calculated constantly, I got the idea from my work as a database designer, I was trying to access a database over a VPN network with the front end being on my computer at my home address and the data store (backend) being about 20 miles from my home. when i tried to access the database in this manner it was very laggy and it crashed alot. I then installed Small Business Server 2003 on the server and configured Terminal Services, I tried a remote desktop connection to the database and it worked purfectly, no lag, no crashes. This was because all the processing is taking place on the server and absolutly no database info was being tranferred accross the VPN, only screen updates, and keyboard and mouse info. This is the way forward for Eve. No other method will work.
solbright altaltalt Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.07.11 14:17:00 - [9] Originally by: L0st S0ul I got reimbursed for that loss but it is a fault with a lvl 2 mission I think. If your ship is not strong enough it won't survive the 24 npc's locking on, i'm guessing CCP know about it otherwise they wouldn't give my ship back. Cool, yeah, the missions have had a bit of a work over and some are a bit wonky from what I've read.
solbright altaltalt Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.07.11 14:21:00 - [10] Originally by: Aaron This is the way forward for Eve. No other method will work. Uhm, no, sorry. The internet traffic for Eve would go through the roof.
Aaron	Posted - 2007.07.11 14:25:00 - [11] Originally by: solbright altaltalt Originally by: Aaron This is the way forward for Eve. No other method will work. Uhm, no, sorry. The internet traffic for Eve would go through the roof. Hi buddy, did u actually read my post properly? The ONLY eve internet traffic would be screen updates, and keyboard/mouse info, Absolutly no other data will be sent accross the internet cos its all being processed on the server, ask any database/network engineer, they will aggree with me.
fire 59 Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.07.11 14:32:00 - [12] I had a very confusing moment with desync the other mrning. Was in a big battle at a pos, mega ws getting shot to hell so was aligning, accidentally pumped mwd so im watchin it creep up to warp speed,50% structure,30%,10%.... and i'm in warp. Have never had such a close shave in my life and was thouroughly excited. Sitting at the pos watching my ship burn and requesting rep etc and BooM, i explode about 10 minutes after i escape? Another wierd thing from it is that i never recieved insurance or eve mail notification of my ship exploding, even though i had allies check to see if i was in pod or whatever, wierd stuff. Hope they fix whatever is doing it soon GOONIES = OMNIPOTENCE INCARNATE
solbright altaltalt Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.07.11 14:35:00 - [13] Originally by: Aaron The ONLY eve internet traffic would be screen updates, and keyboard/mouse info, Absolutly no other data will be sent accross the internet cos its all being processed on the server, Watch Eve's network activity some time. It never polls.
Betty Beatser	Posted - 2007.07.11 15:06:00 - [14] Originally by: Aaron The ONLY eve internet traffic would be screen updates, and keyboard/mouse info, Absolutly no other data will be sent accross the internet cos its all being processed on the server, ask any database/network engineer, they will aggree with me. I strongly suggest you find a new career, because no database/network engineer with even basic understanding of how the internet works would agree with you. The amount of bandwidth required for the servers would go through the roof. Sending 30FPS worth of uncompressed data to a thin client is far more expensive in bandwidth than a data stream to a dedicated client. The processing power required would be insane, the servers would have to process/render the data for each client before sending anything. Your solution would introduce an amazing bandwidth and processing overhead to the servers which are already struggling as it is. Your direct DB connection to your home pc sucked because your home PC was setup badly, the DB server was setup badly, or you internet connection was sucking at the time. Your thin client solution may appear to work better but that is with a single client and a single server, it would start falling over with more than a dozen clients using it at once when your DB servre should be able to service several hundred connection at once.
Cpt Branko Guardian Heroes	Posted - 2007.07.11 15:29:00 - [15] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 11/07/2007 15:29:48 Originally by: Aaron ...I think with my meager programming and database design that I know it all while I am not capable of doing basic math or indeed have a clue... First off, the processing required to render graphics for 30K clients is something really and trully immense. Secondly, it would take a ton of bandwidth, much more then it's required now. You'd need at least a 2Mbps connection for it to run "smoothly". Thirdly, it would be far less resilient to network lag and latency, because the client can't extrapolate what's going on and draw it, as it can now (what's mostly a good thing, because you don't want visual stutter even if you're not 100% synced). Having slideshow performance while idly flying around in space because of random network lag somewhere between me and their cluster farm (and, really, things on the network could very well head through Uzbekistan) is not fun at all. Fourthly, we'd have the same problem, because conceptually nothing changes (except adding a layer on top of the infrastructure to do the preety pictures) except pushing the desynch, lag and processing issues tied with having a ton of clients inside the cluster. Oh, yeah, you add some latency on top, with another layer of communication. Or do you propose the already overstressed servers which get messed up coping with the 500-man player battles actually have to do the graphics, too, themselves? Lastly, what were you using? If you had crashes and lag while acessing your database and remote desktop fixed it, you were doing something wrong in the first place.
MrTripps Gallente	Posted - 2007.07.11 16:03:00 - [16] Originally by: Aaron ask any database/network engineer, they will aggree with me. Ur...no they wouldn't. It wouldn't solve the problem anyway. What they need is to discover the magic formula of states and variables causing the increase in desync. If that isn't possible find a way to detect a desynced client and resync in some way more elegant then rebooting the client. Or something. Unless we are devs we don't really know anything about game architecture so we would be more productive out mining Veld in Jita. "Life is nothing but a competition to be the criminal rather than the victim." - Bertrand Russell
solbright altaltalt Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.07.11 16:35:00 - [17] I'd like to thank Aaron for providing the opportunity for my good fortune. Thanks
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2007.07.11 16:37:00 - [18] Originally by: Winterblink Essentially, your client thinks it's doing something, but the server thinks you're doing something else. Hence, desync(hronized). Example would be you seeing someone not moving on your screen when in fact they are. Or you not seeing someone shooting you, when in fact you've already been podded as far as the server's concerned. Why cant real life be more like that... like, the boss think im working, but im already home. --- Originally by: CCP Wrangler You're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, thats what hello kitty online is for.
StabThigh	Posted - 2007.07.11 16:45:00 - [19] Aaron, I hope you realise that the reason your VPN was laggy was because VPN's require massive overhead. The eve client uses a relativly low amount of traffic so I don't see what you are getting at with terminal services
Tarminic Black Flame Industries	Posted - 2007.07.11 16:58:00 - [20] Originally by: Aaron ask any database/network engineer, they will aggree with me. I disagree, actually. The processing power required to process and then render the client graphics for thirty thousand players would be astronomical. There's no way it would work on the client end without a very ,very fast connection either. ------------ ULTIMATE LAG SOLUTION IBTL! IBDS/DC! IBTC! 1st in a BoB post! And other such forum tom-foolery.
Lord Dynastron Mystical Knights Legionnaire Services Ltd.	Posted - 2007.07.11 17:49:00 - [21] Originally by: fire 59 I had a very confusing moment with desync the other mrning. Was in a big battle at a pos, mega ws getting shot to hell so was aligning, accidentally pumped mwd so im watchin it creep up to warp speed,50% structure,30%,10%.... and i'm in warp. Have never had such a close shave in my life and was thouroughly excited. Sitting at the pos watching my ship burn and requesting rep etc and BooM, i explode about 10 minutes after i escape? Another wierd thing from it is that i never recieved insurance or eve mail notification of my ship exploding, even though i had allies check to see if i was in pod or whatever, wierd stuff. Hope they fix whatever is doing it soon I made it out in hull,, and arrived at a POS that ceased to exist. Sat there about 10 minutes,, POS returned. Crazy stuff
Gort Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.07.11 19:17:00 - [22] My experience with thin clients (MS terminal services, VNC, webmail, etc.) suggests that the level of increased overhead on the server and the network would be immense if EVE were to be run that way. If you are talking about rendering graphics on the server and sending it raw over the net, that's a non-starter. Each of the above, by the way, is a good deal slower than using a dedicated client to accomplish the work, or being local rather than remote. You want a pretty desktop, use VNC, you want performance, use SSH. The application needs to have the client do everything that can be done remotely without compromising the integrity of the game (e.g., results and values need to be determined on the server to avoid local dll haxsploits). Other than that, the architecture must keep all unnecessary monkeyshines off the net and the servers. To the extent consistent with security and reasonable bandwidth usage, the load should be distributed. The EVE client may be a thin client in a manner of speaking, but it's most assuredly not a receiver for raw graphics. My old-fashioned 0.02, Cheers, Gorty -- When in doubt, empty the magazine.
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2007.07.11 19:23:00 - [23] Originally by: oodin i know ofc what lag is as do all in eve but can someone explain desyncs and how it affects the fight/difference between lag/desyncs It's spelled 'Odin' Originally by: myself The Amarr templar joke is a joke stupid people can laugh at. Its the joke any dumb person can laugh at.

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