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Archdart
Centre Of Attention Middle of Nowhere
1
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Posted - 2011.04.08 09:19:00 -
[1] - Quote
I will tell you the story , I am interested if this could have been pulled off by anyone not in CCP or an affiliated company, that is the only reason i am posting so keep any other bullshit opinions to yourself. Firstly I saw a contract to good to be true , LOL. a Golem and and 20 Large algid administration unit II for 3.9bil ( ON the market someone wants to buy 60 of them at 200mil each ) to good to be true , Yes i think scam but can't work out how, i am in jita so i will sell them before the sell order can be removed. I buy it no prob, golem and 20 Large algid administration unit II in hangar so i click on them and sell item see my beautiful sell price, profit and a free golem, yes . hmm i wait , where is my isk , lag must be lag see 20 of items are gone from buyers list there only 40 now , getting late so I go to bed will be right tomrrow. Sadly it was not oh well, I put in a petition hmm says GM 'Those that appear in sellers list are yours, seems you used advanced form and selected a duration other than immediate. As a result your order would have failed, was instead put up for sale.' Sincerely GM (name withheld) to protect the idiot. Now 3Bil or so isnt going to break me so its not the problem the problem is i didnt do an advanced sale change the price per item to 200,000,000.01 isk and I at this point am interested in how this now obvious scam could have been worked , maybe the chinese hacked CCP server , CCP robbed me to sell my isk, any other ideas. Eve was a bit dull of late I live in a wormhole so this is actually a bit of a welcome diversion things can be slow here sometimes, oh no not another cloud of C320 got to go, will be back to hear your ideas. Yours Archdart. |
Florestan Bronstein
Element 115. Test Alliance Please Ignore
21
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Posted - 2011.04.08 09:28:00 -
[2] - Quote
margin trading + high minimum quantity = lulz
you don't pvp without having some knowledge about pvp game mechanics, do you?
why do you think it's a good idea to use the market without reading up on market game mechanics?
Posts like yours (and there are plenty of them) are the equivalent of "OMG I couldn't warp away from the engagement! HAX!!! GMs ban this pirate guy already!!!" to which the only answer can be "If you wait for somebody to tell you about warp scramblers you are probably playing the wrong game". |
Candar Beldrulf
Matari Munitions
3
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Posted - 2011.04.08 09:33:00 -
[3] - Quote
om nom nom delicious tears. |
Gistatis Tribunus
The Unknown Bar and Pub
3
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Posted - 2011.04.08 09:33:00 -
[4] - Quote
Could you please reorganize your OP so that it is more readable?
Also basically what the two posts above me said. |
Archdart
Centre Of Attention Middle of Nowhere
1
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Posted - 2011.04.08 09:40:00 -
[5] - Quote
margin trading + high minimum quantity = lulz Sorry forgot to mention minimum buy amount was for twenty so its not that. |
Florestan Bronstein
Element 115. Test Alliance Please Ignore
21
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Posted - 2011.04.08 09:57:00 -
[6] - Quote
coming to think of it I feel nice, so here's your explanation:
The Margin Trading skill is used to set up buy orders that do not have to be fully covered by the ISK in your wallet.
Usually when you create a buy order over 10 items @ 1m ISK each, you have to deposit 10m ISK that will be locked away until the order is filled (with that money) or expired.
Problem is that it can take many weeks for orders to fill in remote regions and you cannot access the ISK during all that time - you might have created an order that probably won't get filled for another few days and now you can't use the money to set up a different buy order that will fill in just a few minutes.
Margin Trading solves that issue.
If you create the above order having Margin Trading at lvl5 you will only have to deposit 2.37m ISK in escrow and and 7.63m ISK will remain in your wallet.
As your order gets filled the ISK is taken out of escrow and once escrow cannot cover the full sum ISK gets taken directly out of your wallet (on the 3rd unit that you buy in this example).
As you can use the 7.63m ISK in your wallet to set up more buy orders this allows you to "overbook" your wallet as long as you are confident that you won't have to cover too many orders at once. When I used to trade in Jita I would usually have 2-3x more ISK in outstanding buy orders than in my wallet.
Now let's assume you spent the 7.63m on exotic dancers instead of keeping it in your wallet.
First unit gets bought - escrow is 1.37m Second unit gets bought - escrow is 0.37m Third units gets bought - only 0.37m in escrow, market system tries to take the remaining 0.63m ISK from your wallet but your wallet is empty! Your buy order gets cancelled and the person trying to sell to you gets an error message saying your order doesn't exist.
How to abuse this system:
This system has been abused like forever to support scams and market manipulations. It can be used to create "fake" buy orders that are not covered and will fail as soon as somebody tries to sell to them.
Just create the order and clear out your wallet (by sending all spare ISK to a different character or wallet division) afterwards.
Problem is you still have 23.7% of the total ISK value in escrow so people can fill up to 23.7 percent of your (horribly overpriced) buy order. That sucks.
To circumvent this you set a minimum quantity that is > 23.7% on your order, if you want to create a fake buy order for 10 units setting a minimum quantity of 3 units is perfectly fine for example as the ISK in escrow won't be enough to cover the purchase of 3 units.
This technique can be used to create fake demand or increase buy order values during a market manipulation. If you want to dump stock at a high price, just buy out cheap sell orders, create some fake buy orders at high prices and wait for legit buy orders to outbid your fake orders. Sell your stock + the units you bought from sell orders to the legit orders and laugh all the way to the bank.
If used for scams this is usually done on markets with low competition (i.e. strange T2 rigs nobody ever uses) to make sure you buy from the right overpriced sell order or the items are sold via contracts. It will always look as if you can make a good deal by selling to buy orders but the buy orders will fail & get cancelled once you try to complete them.
In your case - due to having the advanced market tab expanded - you told your client to "sell these items for that price", when the buy order you tried to sell to failed the broker mechanism just did set up your own sell order at that price. Had you used the simple interface for selling you would have just received an error message and the items would have been returned to your hangar.
If you now suggest to remove the Margin Trading skill from the game, you are a fool. |
Archdart
Centre Of Attention Middle of Nowhere
1
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Posted - 2011.04.08 10:15:00 -
[7] - Quote
Interesting and Informative thank you. However I am not totally convinced as I know i sold from simple sell screen and got no 'error messages' , it is a puzzle and I am sure you believe it was worked as you think but when Isay 'I know' I mean it I do not mean best guess or probably. I do a fair amount of trading and do know when i am in simple or advanced also can you explain why price went up 0.01isk as I can assure i made no such change as a matter of fact i couldnt had as i was in simple sell screen only. thanking you.
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Florestan Bronstein
Element 115. Test Alliance Please Ignore
21
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Posted - 2011.04.08 10:18:00 -
[8] - Quote
Archdart wrote:I will tell you the story ,
I am interested if this could have been pulled off by anyone not in CCP or an affiliated company, that is the only reason i am posting so keep any other bullshit opinions to yourself.
Firstly I saw a contract to good to be true , LOL. a Golem and and 20 Large algid administration unit II for 3.9bil ( ON the market someone wants to buy 60 of them at 200mil each ) to good to be true ,
Yes i think scam but can't work out how, i am in jita so i will sell them before the sell order can be removed.
I buy it no prob, golem and 20 Large algid administration unit II in hangar so i click on them and sell item see my beautiful sell price, profit and a free golem,
yes . hmm i wait , where is my isk , lag must be lag see 20 of items are gone from buyers list there only 40 now , getting late so I go to bed will be right tomrrow.
Sadly it was not oh well, I put in a petition hmm
says GM 'Those that appear in sellers list are yours, seems you used advanced form and selected a duration other than immediate. As a result your order would have failed, was instead put up for sale.'
Sincerely GM (name withheld) to protect the idiot. [editor's note: insulting GMs on the forums is always a great idea]
Now 3Bil or so isnt going to break me so its not the problem the problem is i didnt do an advanced sale change the price per item to 200,000,000.01 isk and I at this point am interested in how this now obvious scam could have been worked , maybe the chinese hacked CCP server , CCP robbed me to sell my isk, any other ideas.
Eve was a bit dull of late I live in a wormhole so this is actually a bit of a welcome diversion things can be slow here sometimes, oh no not another cloud of C320 got to go, will be back to hear your ideas.
Yours Archdart. I donated some paragraphs to your post.
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Florestan Bronstein
Element 115. Test Alliance Please Ignore
21
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Posted - 2011.04.08 10:24:00 -
[9] - Quote
Archdart wrote:Interesting and Informative thank you. However I am not totally convinced as I know i sold from simple sell screen and got no 'error messages' , it is a puzzle and I am sure you believe it was worked as you think but when Isay 'I know' I mean it I do not mean best guess or probably. I do a fair amount of trading and do know when i am in simple or advanced also can you explain why price went up 0.01isk as I can assure i made no such change as a matter of fact i couldnt had as i was in simple sell screen only. thanking you.
well if it really was just one buy order of 60 units and it changed to 40 units after you tried to sell to it it probably wasn't the usual margin trading scam (although the selection of items would be typical). A minimum quantity of 20 units on a 60 units order would also fit the margin trading pattern.
You can always try to escalate the petition to a senior GM and explain that you are absolutely certain that you didn't set the price on that order and were not using the advanced mode. I doubt that much will come of it but you can always try.
You might have accidentally adjusted the order price by scrolling your mouse-wheel (maybe you wanted to scroll in the market window but focus was still on the sell/create order window)? Each mouse-wheel tick adjusts the order price by +0.01/-0.01 ISK. |
Archdart
Centre Of Attention Middle of Nowhere
1
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Posted - 2011.04.08 10:39:00 -
[10] - Quote
Thank you , petition is still 'in action' but am not concerned with it am more interested in your insight I did actually tell the second GM to message me about the 0.01 isk he has not replied yet still i have plenty to think about with what you have toId will do some testing in simple sell screen to see if i can satisfy myself as to what might have happened not convinced but willing to look at it . Thank You again. |
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Gavjack Bunk
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
66
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Posted - 2011.04.08 11:08:00 -
[11] - Quote
I was wondering, does anybody actually use Margin Trading for margin trading? |
Michela
Bosun Shipyards
0
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Posted - 2011.04.08 11:32:00 -
[12] - Quote
Gavjack Bunk wrote:I was wondering, does anybody actually use Margin Trading for margin trading?
Sure, for purchasing large lots of ore, I use it. But, I think that uses like mine are the exception and not the rule. |
Iam Widdershins
FODT
5
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Posted - 2011.04.08 14:32:00 -
[13] - Quote
I once had a corp member lose his rifter with a Civilian Warp Disruptor fit on it.
They're exactly like t1 warp disruptors, except they don't stop you from warping.
OP reminds me of that time.
Edit: Pretty sure that guy was just as afraid of using punctuation in any form as our dear OP here. |
Calfis
F.R.E.E. Explorer EVE Animal Control
44
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Posted - 2011.04.08 14:50:00 -
[14] - Quote
Archdart wrote:Yes i think scam but can't work out how
So in summary, you think something is a scam but just because you can't figure how the scam works you decide to fall for it anyway?
I cannot even begin to imagine the amount of fail you go through each day. |
Iam Widdershins
FODT
5
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Posted - 2011.04.08 14:53:00 -
[15] - Quote
Calfis wrote:Archdart wrote:Yes i think scam but can't work out how So in summary, you think something is a scam but just because you can't figure how the scam works you decide to fall for it anyway? I cannot even begin to imagine the amount of fail you go through each day.
This is why Costco memberships are a worthwhile investment. He must buy it by the crate. |
flakeys
The Great cornholio's
0
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Posted - 2011.04.08 15:52:00 -
[16] - Quote
Gavjack Bunk wrote:I was wondering, does anybody actually use Margin Trading for margin trading?
I allways used it when i was into trading.Imagine having buy orders for a total of let's say 20 B then this skill is DAMN usefull to have both orders up and at the same time enough freedom to do daytrading. |
Rasz Lin
1
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Posted - 2011.04.08 16:47:00 -
[17] - Quote
how much broker and tax for that 3Bil sell order?
+ i like how you called GM an idiot :) |
Forum Troll Trolling
Forum Trolling Corp
2
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Posted - 2011.04.08 17:14:00 -
[18] - Quote
using the margin trading skill to troll/**** traders without consequence has been done since margin trading existed offtopic but I think Crime and Punishment should be renamed to Crime and LOLs, since there is very little; if measurable, punishment in Eve Online nowdays |
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