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The downward spiral that is the EvE Online experience

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Farscape Hw Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.07.15 21:14:00 - [1] Ive been playing this game since the middle of 2005, ive been in countless fleet battles and ive had alot of fun here. but i am concerned. Shortly after i got this game, i noticed something that worried me. everytime there was a patch, the game would get more laggy and buggy. the new ships and mods and stuff gave the game a bit more excitment even at the cost of some performance. but sometime (and im not good at rememmbering dates) around the beginning of 2007, or late 2006, there came a patch that completly tipped the balance between more funner ships and intolerable lag. Ever since then, the game has been getting worse and worse at crashing, strange 'desyncs', lagging out, and module lag along with some other random problems. i have not been on a single op this year that at some point, if not the entire op, where half if not everyone crashed. used to, the worst lag that could happen would be in massive scale fleet battles (and you guys who have played for more than 1 year know what i mean by this) was when it was around 250ppl+ in system, modules would take like 5-10 seconds to activate. BUT you could still activate them, and the frame rate was ok if you stayed zoomed out. although ive noticed an improvment in the activation of modules time, the fact that more than 50% of your gang combat get hit by some new BUG (and yes ccp it IS a bug) is ruining this game for everyone. this bug being what everyone calls a 'desync'. i think that ppl are glueing this desync word to more than one specific problem. but the bug i am talking about is definatly when my client gets out of whack with the server completely. heres a good example: we decide not to engage one gang twice our size cuz they have setup on the gate with snipers and drones out, we start heading the other direction but half the gang hasnt let the scout get ahead yet. and yes im the scout. i jump into this system about 2 jumps down the pipe from where we turned, and it refuses to load. and i, growing acustom to the lag in eve, say on coms "dont jump" as i know there must be some gate camp that im not loading. unfortunatly most of the gang had jumped already. i loaded and told the gang leader what was there and the decision was made to burn back to the gate and jump through. important info: enimy camp roughly 50 ppl, our gang roughly 20 that totals 70 in local. we aproach and hit mwd's and a cyno goes up, one carrier jumps in. i, being the scout, mwded away to keep eyes on them. i turn my mwd off about 200k away... it turned off but im still going 7k/s. i notice our gang on the gate are still sitting there in jump range. coms become chaotic with "my ship wont jump" and "i think im desynced" as we are having a nice conversation in local and in gang chat that doesnt seem to be effected by the desync in any way at all. local starts dropping. so i relog, only to find that 5 carriers had jumped in. another problem all of our gangs are having. ive got a nice vid card, i payed alot of money for it. it runs battlefield 2 like a champ. i normaly get around 80-110 fps in space depending on the system. but about 1 hour ago, we attempted to fight a 70 man ranged battleship camp with our 32 man hac/command ship gang. the plan was simple, jump in, burn out of the bubble, and warp to our cloaker at 100k. plan was going great, no one died on the jumpin, we all warped and landed on the battleships. no one desynced. i locked the primary, turned launchers on, locked the ceptor tackling my flycatcher, aproached him with mwd on and painted him... drones... ALOT of drones everywhere, my framerate went from 35 fps to 0. stayed at 0 for about 10 seconds, then got to about 1 to 2 fps. it was awefull lag but i could still controll my mods with hot keys, i put the light missles on the crow, and i was faster than him. more drones... 0fps... i wait, wait some more, about 20 seconds later, 1fps... 2 fps... 3 4 5, wait where did half of my launchers go... To be continued
Petrothian Tong Gallente	Posted - 2007.07.15 21:18:00 - [2] Edited by: Petrothian Tong on 15/07/2007 21:17:55 oddly enough, the lag seems to be the worst the 3 weeks after dragon patch made it in... its... great since then.. relatively.. edit: *argh too many typos -Siggi- ""PvP" isn't only direct person to person combat, it can be very indirect. Selling an item on the market which somebody buys from you is resulting in another guy not getting a sale." Oveur
Farscape Hw Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.07.15 21:19:00 - [3] Edited by: Farscape Hw on 15/07/2007 21:24:56 and where did my armor go? i click warp, my ship warps to the astroid belt at 100k, but the grid isnt loading and all these guys are still on my overview including a random rokh who decided making me primary was better than whoever his FC called. i wait in the belt for about a full min. b4 my screen goes back to the battle and my ship explodes. ya know im getting really tierd of this. ive lost 4 ships in the last 2 days to this crap. i dont know about you guys but i would like an explination from CCP as to why they are putting quantity over quality to the point that the game is becoming unplayable. i dont give a damn about a new dev team working on station walking or some new way to make your modules turn red and explode. i want to hear about the new dev team working solely on reducing lag and fixing the obvious bugs that the deny even exist. i really do enjoy playing eve but its coming to a point where the frustration is outweighing the benifit. and if anyone in ccp is reading this, and you want to see another bug thats being called a desync, try this, get a few remote repping vexors or ishtars, and a few sniper bs's shooting at them, tell the vexors to aproach the one being shot, deploy drones, remote rep the one being shot, have the one being shot aproach the sniping bs's. see what happens after about 5 mins of that. half of the gang ends up out of range to remote rep the one being shot even when they show him 400m from them.
Petrothian Tong Gallente	Posted - 2007.07.15 21:45:00 - [4] yeah.. it can get really bad in the weekends.. especially in caldari space... hence why I am in gallente.. Amarr space is the best though =P -Siggi- ""PvP" isn't only direct person to person combat, it can be very indirect. Selling an item on the market which somebody buys from you is resulting in another guy not getting a sale." Oveur
slothe Caldari 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.07.15 21:54:00 - [5] eve was buggiest in its first year of release 2003-2004, by a long long long shot. lag seems to have got better in the last couple years (its never been perfect). However the recent desynch problem needs to be resolved asap.
Tomsudy Minmatar Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.07.15 21:55:00 - [6] Yeah i got the same thing on mine Thing is it doesnt make a difference if u lose ships to this bug and CCP wont even ***** admit to there game *** up thats what **es me off the most.
Rheinkraft D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.07.15 22:06:00 - [7] So true, CCP turned a blind eye to my ship loss to desync, poor show Whats that? Tower of Babel?
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.15 22:39:00 - [8] can I have all your stuff? Real turtles tank armor. Real men fly Pink. Nerfageddon
Ander Gallente Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.07.15 22:41:00 - [9] I'd like to hear a dev explaining the situation with desyncs. The following would be nice to know or have confirmed: Description of the problem: Desync - Client ceases to update trajectories of items in space. Items will continue on the same path or orbit as before desync Caused by: my guess is that massive "calculations" of trajectories somehow get out of sync between server and client. Especially when drones are involved. I think I remember a dev explaining that the client calculates trajectories and relative position and filling in the blanks and only updating the trajectories when server has new information. This always seems to happen when drones are involved. Since normal gameplay usually doesnt desync I'm guessing it's caused by additional information being sent to client and not being handled in time. Thus client gets out of sync. This could be attributed to the fact that drones movement pattern are entirely handled by server which means that their trajectories are probably getting updated often. Drones mwd, orbit, shut off mwd etc.. While on the other hand a massive amount of players can also cause desync if their trajectories or actions in space are being sent to a lot of clients. Decloaking ships seems to do the trick aswell... Some speculation here, but perhaps the issue is at the other end, perhaps it's the server which can't handle all the data and simply isnt able to keep up with sending some important data.. once again, client can't handle this properly and it goes "desync". I dont encourage it, but it's only a matter of time before some reverse-engineer dude takes a look at datastream and the stack. Verifying what exactly happends during desyncs. CCP silence: Another aspect of this desync issue and why CCP are keeping quiet is that it may be exploited. If CCP reveals the reason why desyncs happen it may be used by some players who find a way to exploit this by "causing" desyncs. My desync statistics currently are that out of 75% of the battles with drones I've been at, my client goes desync and I have to get it to sync somehow. Relogging seems to be the easiset. EVE PIRATE ANDER! now posting in "orange"
Kharadran Sullath Caldari IntoXication Inc	Posted - 2007.07.15 22:51:00 - [10] Originally by: Tortun Nahme can I have all your stuff? I second that. ------ --Don't get saucy with me Bernaise!--
Santa Anna Caldari Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.07.15 22:52:00 - [11] I've been desynced a few times, never were drones a significant factor in the combat. At some point, the client checks with the server to ask whether it can do something, but after hearing back never tells the server that it's actually doing said thing. The client then shows the user that the user's ship is where it would be on the server had the action been performed while the ship on the server continues to act as it did prior to the desync. As an example, I once held a point on a scorpion while orbiting it in a stabber despite being desynced, and I kept orbiting and scramming the scorp long after my FC said it was dead and told me to start putting points on other targets. I think one person had drones out the whole fight. _____ Heat Warfare
R3dSh1ft Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.07.15 23:20:00 - [12] The desynch I experienced was not due to drones (none were on the field) but bumping... The more you get bumped or bump something, the higher the likelihood of a desynch in my experience. DKOD - an awesome synchronised killing machine
Santa Anna Caldari Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.07.15 23:57:00 - [13] Originally by: R3dSh1ft The desynch I experienced was not due to drones (none were on the field) but bumping... The more you get bumped or bump something, the higher the likelihood of a desynch in my experience. An alignment-related bug would make sense, as desyncs are frequently reported around warp-ins/warp-outs, especially with the early capital ship reports. That wouldn't explain the jump-in desyncs or the desyncs that occur when someone else warps or jumps into you, though. _____ Heat Warfare
SiJira	Posted - 2007.07.16 00:47:00 - [14] there is no problem and half this stuff is from you rather than server side ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
fuze	Posted - 2007.07.16 01:06:00 - [15] Eve without whiners is like Oveur without beer. And don't you think that during those 4 years all major patches broke the game more or less this update would be an exception? It prolly will get sorted but until then we're being kept in the dark just like all those other times.
Nachshon Caldari Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.07.16 01:06:00 - [16] I haven't had any problems like these. It could be a problem with your connection. ____________________________________ Caldari by birth, Minmatar by citizenship. The True Meaning of Freedom
BluOrange Gallente Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.07.16 01:25:00 - [17] Originally by: Nachshon I haven't had any problems like these. It could be a problem with your connection. I don't think so. The most spectacular desynch I've seen was when I was in a gang that killed an assault frigate. The assault frigate pilot had been trying to dock, but we got him quickly enough when he was just outside dock range. We talked to him in local for several minutes, told him that we had a killmail with his name on it, and advised him to petition the loss. He stayed on our overviews with the ship that we thought we'd just popped, docking and undocking didn't fix it, but we couldn't interact with his ship in any way (we tried targeting him, but he was 'invulnerable'). He couldn't interact with his ship either, none of his controls were working and he was stuck, in the middle of the station structure. Could be a deadlocking issue on the server, that's a common enough problem to introduce when you're trying to make things quicker. Recruitment FAQ
cheru Starlancers Mordus Angels	Posted - 2007.07.16 01:58:00 - [18] Originally by: BluOrange ... He stayed on our overviews with the ship that we thought we'd just popped, docking and undocking didn't fix it, but we couldn't interact with his ship in any way (we tried targeting him, but he was 'invulnerable'). He couldn't interact with his ship either, none of his controls were working ... We had a similar bug/desync/whateveryouwannacallit recently in PB, ~10 people at a gate, 1 ship jumps in, 10 people start killing the ship, around the time when it blows up most of the 10 lose lock on him and Eve freezes. No module activation possible but funnily enough drones could be ordered back to dronebay and actually were there after relog... Re OP: Yes, I neither have the feeling that CCP care enough about fixing fundamental things (bugs, lag, UI, drones!11 :D, ...) and yes, I am aware that buxfixing and new feature development are mostly different people, but you obviously have to many people in the "new feature departement" and too little in the "bugfix department" then. ................................................. been there done that
Siege Minmatar Siegecraft Bounty Hunting	Posted - 2007.07.16 02:07:00 - [19] Guys, seriously, how about checking some other forums other than General and CAOD for once. Over in the game development forum, they have a nice thread going on about the desync issue, it's a HUGE issue for CCP. They are begging, repeatedly, for log files from players. One of the posts from a dev said that, at that point, they had recieved ONE bugreport with a logfile attached. One, Uno, Single, Solo, less than two. If you want it solved, and if you're getting it that often, then read this thread and do something to help them. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=549542
Ryum852	Posted - 2007.07.16 02:09:00 - [20] "i wait in the belt for about a full min. b4 my screen goes back to the battle and my ship explodes. ya know im getting really tierd of this. ive lost 4 ships in the last 2 days to this crap." I know excatly what you mean, I am really new to the game and I have already seen it. I have lost two ships already when I warped with some armor, and full hull and explode when i was atleast 5 seconds into actually being in warp, and the other time I got outta warp then my ship exploded.. I really like the game, but I don't want to really get into a game that has the sync issues I have not seen since early original eq. Well actually I have seen a lot of sync issues in MMOs but they are when TONS of people are around (like trading areas).. not random 10 people around, and those issues didn't take long to fix.
PirateShampoo Minmatar UK Corp FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.16 02:18:00 - [21] I imagine snigg have only just come accross this due to their smallish size gangs, and frankly this once incident may annoy you but the major alliances with lag fleets have been having this on a daily basis almost for 3 weeks. Our first instance of this was the day after the patch. I am just gonna list the two major ones as we have had so many minor ones I simply cannot remember them all. Incident 1: Our dread fleet started to attack a razor pos in S-E, however after taking 5% of the pos shields we noticed that it was no longer going down. We assumed the pos was bugged until someone who had just warped into the dread fleet point out the fact that it was now in reinforced. The dread pilots could not see it due a complete desync with the server. A gang member warped us to a pos, we relogged and jumped out. Incident 2: The next day we tried to assist ** with defending their system and F4T4L along with vigilace jumped a large fleet into S-E, every single one of us desynced and where massacred by the razor fleet. Almost none of us saw a thing or fired at anything. Result over 100 ships lost, mainly sniper bs. I can recall at least a further 15 incidents where we have lost less due to this issue. It would not be so bad IF IT EFFECTED ALL SIDE EQUALLY LIKE LAG. However desyncs for the most part seem to affect one group only allowing the other to have a 'Turkey Shoot' I have read many other reports and many other alliances will attest to this. S****edly you should probably consider youself lucky that you have had very few incidents of this. CCP I look at the patch notes for tues I still see no sign of a fix, no updates from the devs and no cause or explanation. Clearly this is not a hardware or ISP issue because it is clear that it started directly after the revelations 2 patch. I have seen corp members leave over this issue over the past week and unless you start sorting out now others will leave also. Our patience is wearing thin.
PirateShampoo Minmatar UK Corp FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.16 02:30:00 - [22] Edited by: PirateShampoo on 16/07/2007 02:32:36 Edited by: PirateShampoo on 16/07/2007 02:31:28 Originally by: Siege Guys, seriously, how about checking some other forums other than General and CAOD for once. Over in the game development forum, they have a nice thread going on about the desync issue, it's a HUGE issue for CCP. They are begging, repeatedly, for log files from players. One of the posts from a dev said that, at that point, they had recieved ONE bugreport with a logfile attached. One, Uno, Single, Solo, less than two. If you want it solved, and if you're getting it that often, then read this thread and do something to help them. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=549542 I'll gladly help, but are you aware of how many people actually read the game development forums? not many. And in any case. This is CCP's product and it is their duty not the players to ensure it works correctly. We have been told time and time again that the devs play the game on a regular and consistant basis and that they have players in the major alliances. They should use this fact to obtain logs from their own day to day play surely? What really galls me however is that they know it is a problem but they deny it in petitions. If an alliace loses a 100 man bs fleet for example that is roughly 10.3 billion isk in a single battle lost due to desync excluding fittings an equivilent of 5-10 hours isk making (per person, or 500-1000 total man hours) to replace. These sorts of losses can slowly kill alliances as their financial base erodes due to no fault of their own. Quite simply CCP must fix the problem or replace the losses via petition and stop denying via the petition system that the problem does not exist.
Siege Minmatar Siegecraft Bounty Hunting	Posted - 2007.07.16 02:33:00 - [23] Originally by: Ander I'd like to hear a dev explaining the situation with desyncs. CCP silence: Another aspect of this desync issue and why CCP are keeping quiet is that it may be exploited. If CCP reveals the reason why desyncs happen it may be used by some players who find a way to exploit this by "causing" desyncs. You want a Dev explanation? Here you go. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=549542
Santa Anna Caldari Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.07.16 02:45:00 - [24] I don't know if it was always like this, but CCP's bug report staff is pretty incompetent. I've submitted multiple bug reports detailing EVE's problems with Vista and all I get back are form emails stating that they failed to replicate the problem (meaning they didn't try), asking for logs (which wouldn't be relevant), and no return address for follow-up. The bug reports are there to make you feel better about the ship you just lost or the fact that you can't play their game due to incompetent coding and are in no way intended to actually help them improve their product. _____ Heat Warfare
Lady Natacha Minmatar Water and Power	Posted - 2007.07.16 02:46:00 - [25] Originally by: PirateShampoo Edited by: PirateShampoo on 16/07/2007 02:32:36 Edited by: PirateShampoo on 16/07/2007 02:31:28 Originally by: Siege Guys, seriously, how about checking some other forums other than General and CAOD for once. Over in the game development forum, they have a nice thread going on about the desync issue, it's a HUGE issue for CCP. They are begging, repeatedly, for log files from players. One of the posts from a dev said that, at that point, they had recieved ONE bugreport with a logfile attached. One, Uno, Single, Solo, less than two. If you want it solved, and if you're getting it that often, then read this thread and do something to help them. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=549542 I'll gladly help, but are you aware of how many people actually read the game development forums? not many. And in any case. This is CCP's product and it is their duty not the players to ensure it works correctly. We have been told time and time again that the devs play the game on a regular and consistant basis and that they have players in the major alliances. They should use this fact to obtain logs from their own day to day play surely? What really galls me however is that they know it is a problem but they deny it in petitions. If an alliace loses a 100 man bs fleet for example that is roughly 10.3 billion isk in a single battle lost due to desync excluding fittings an equivilent of 5-10 hours isk making (per person, or 500-1000 total man hours) to replace. These sorts of losses can slowly kill alliances as their financial base erodes due to no fault of their own. Quite simply CCP must fix the problem or replace the losses via petition and stop denying via the petition system that the problem does not exist. /signed All those Devs and GM's "who play the game they love" should be more than able to tackle this problem. If not, they need to hire some professionals who can. Where I work, we would never expect our clients to debug our product, and we would NEVER ship a product with such show-stopping bugs. If something we make is in Beta, the clients know about that beforehand, not after they have already made an investment in us. IF CCP wants our help so badly, they should post something in the in-game news (where more people will see it) just like they did with the call for help load testing on sisi. They probably don't do that because they don't want the bad PR that would likely ensue.
FarScape III	Posted - 2007.07.16 05:23:00 - [26] 1st of all your name is awsome :) 2nd yes the lag is bad enough not to be able to play the game how it is played, some how over 20 ships doing something at once is too much. Even the missions lag like that, not fun. IMO it is that we can not have big battles and to forget it untill something can be done to fix it. A Minmater City... Cool! My Skills
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.07.16 05:33:00 - [27] Originally by: BluOrange Originally by: Nachshon I haven't had any problems like these. It could be a problem with your connection. I don't think so. The most spectacular desynch I've seen was when I was in a gang that killed an assault frigate. The assault frigate pilot had been trying to dock, but we got him quickly enough when he was just outside dock range. We talked to him in local for several minutes, told him that we had a killmail with his name on it, and advised him to petition the loss. He stayed on our overviews with the ship that we thought we'd just popped, docking and undocking didn't fix it, but we couldn't interact with his ship in any way (we tried targeting him, but he was 'invulnerable'). He couldn't interact with his ship either, none of his controls were working and he was stuck, in the middle of the station structure. I think this may actually be part of the long awaited Assault Frig buff. \o/ * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.07.16 05:35:00 - [28] Out of curiosity, has CCP ever even responded to a thread about desyncs? Has a dev ever acknowledged the fact that 0.0 PvP is basically impossible due to desyncs? 23 Member EVE Video makers: save EVE-files bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder!
Tonkin D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.07.16 05:41:00 - [29] if the devs start making a ****ty graph saying thats the isp fault or the internet fault for the dsyncs like they did a year back with some lag issues, lets go back to rev 1 shal we. hopefully this patch comming soon should sort out the dsyncs, if not ccp need to look at getting rid of staff and get some smarter people in. hard to say but i pay to play, and atm im not getting what i want.
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2007.07.16 05:47:00 - [30] Hey we got heat, what do they need to fix any de-sync's for? Originally by: myself The Amarr templar joke is a joke stupid people can laugh at. Its the joke any dumb person can laugh at.

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