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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.07.17 21:22:00 -
[1]
Several points to be made.
1. Stack-nerfing rigs together with modules was a grave mistake.
There's not much to add here.
It's so obvious that all rigs that modify attributes modified by modules are practically useless, I don't even need to talk more about it.
For those that don't think it's obvious, take it to "Ships&Modules".
In one fell swoop, half the rigs could just as well not exist, that's how much good they do.
Have the stack-nerf applied SEPARATELY to rigs and modules, not in one pool.
2. Rig usefulness is not balanced with component cost
Even in the event that the stack-nerf would only be applied to rigs, that still doesn't solve any problems.
An even bigger problem is in manufacture component needs for each of the rigs.
Many "radically inferior" rigs share component types with "good" rigs, and the amounts needed are NOT radically lower... hence the price tag on them is insane, which further prohibits their practical usage "in the field".
Of course, there are some "weak" rigs which don't share that many components with "strong" rigs, and if they do they only require a smaller amount, so overall they're half-decently priced.
But those cases are really rare, and it's only "half decent", as mentioned.
The balance won't be easy, and it will be dependant on wether "issue 1" is addressed at all or left "as is".
But the balance is necessary.
3. Rigs on small ships (frig) vs large ships (BC/BS)
The last and probably GRAVEST mistake was to make rigs size-independent.
That can be addressed in two ways... one of them would totally bypass issues #1 and #2, the other will require separate addressing.
The solution that "fixes" everything in one fell swoop ?
Increase salvage material drop rates 10-fold, which will lead to an ALMOST 10-fold decrease in rig prices overall, but in a MUCH HIGHER amount of rigs "moved" on the market (due to the fact people will rig pretty much every PvP ship, and we all know WHAT eventually happends with PvP ships).
This solution however "breaks" something short-term... namely, the market.
Gradual and constant increases in drop rates until that final "x10 drop rate" point is reached might be the solution.
For instance, increase drop rates by 10% of previous week's value each week, for 24-25 weeks (3 months).
The solution that doesn't fix much else except "usage on small ships" ?
Rig count differentiation.
Each rig will have a 10-unit batch (both for build and recycle).
All existing rigs will get an x10 amount.
Frigates will need to fit one rig per slot, and more as ship class goes up, up to 10 rigs per slot for battleships (and capitals), or maybe even increase rig need count above 10 per slot for capitals.
Slots currently fited with rigs on ships that require anything other than 10 rigs per slot COULD "spawn" the "right" amount of rigs in the ship's cargo bay, to keep it all fair. Orders for rigs would be adjusted to compensate (volume x10, price per unit /10).
This "fairness" step is purely optional, but would be nice.
___
Flame away, /sign away, whine away, whatever.
But, well, it was THAT time of month again.
So it needed to be said... as NOTHING seems to get a "peep" out of the devs regarding rigs.
Not that this hasn't been said even BEFORE rigs got into the game (since they were "online" on SiSi), but... meh.
P.S. YES, it's ASSUMED that rigs ARE for every ship... and should have some use, the magnitude of their usefulness being more or less according to pricing (heck, even exponentially, not linearly... right now it's not even logarithmic).
Char creation guide | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
Richard Aiel
Caldari
MicroFunks
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Posted - 2007.07.17 21:30:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Akita T
The solution that "fixes" everything in one fell swoop ?
Increase salvage material drop rates 10-fold, which will lead to an ALMOST 10-fold decrease in rig prices overall, but in a MUCH HIGHER amount of rigs "moved" on the market (due to the fact people will rig pretty much every PvP ship, and we all know WHAT eventually happends with PvP ships)
This has essentially already happened...
Back when I started rigging in Feburary, T1 rigs sold for around 100 million plus each...
NOW look at the prices...
But YET...
Showing what youve found to be wrong with them, NOTHING has changed now that the price has dropped by 10x
If you dropped the prices by another 10x all that would happen is nopone would make them cause theyd be worthless to sell at that point. They're borderline useless to sell at THIS point. I have my rigging and production skills maxxed as back when I mae em, now, I just make em to use cause theyu arent worth it to me to sell and salvage itself is almost worth more to sell.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Yay! I can come up with good ideas too!
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=548436&page=2 |
Jojo Yohan
Gallente
Cskillzone
DAMAGE INC...
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Posted - 2007.07.17 21:31:00 -
[3]
I think something needs to be addressed about the price of rigs. For 6 rigs that I want to make it will cost me over 400mil. The prices outrageous. I think you need to halve or further reduce the component needs for rigs or start npc sell order to put a max on the component prices.
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Richard Aiel
Caldari
MicroFunks
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Posted - 2007.07.17 21:34:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Jojo Yohan
I think something needs to be addressed about the price of rigs. For 6 rigs that I want to make it will cost me over 400mil. The prices outrageous. I think you need to halve or further reduce the component needs for rigs or start npc sell order to put a max on the component prices.
Npcs sell on the market?? WTF happened to "player run economy"?
No, the prices dont need to be nerfed further, and the prices of components DEFINATELY dont need caps.
If you start putting caps on some things, why not put caps on everything? Then everything will be fairly priced....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Yay! I can come up with good ideas too!
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=548436&page=2 |
Tortun Nahme
Minmatar
Heimatar Services Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.17 21:34:00 -
[5]
no
rigs are coming down in price as more people are taking the time to build rather than just sell the components, soon(tm) they will be perfectly reasonable
don't like them, dont use them, if they suck so bad you wont be losing anything anyway 
Real turtles tank armor.
Real men fly Pink.
Nerfageddon |
Alora Venoda
Caldari
GalTech
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Posted - 2007.07.17 21:35:00 -
[6]
i like the idea of them being in batches, and larger ships need more to fill a single rig slot. this would make it much easier for frigates to be rigged in PvP, but still maintain balance with rigging battleships.
salvage drop rates are okay IMO. and the prices of "lesser" rigs being affected by shared components with "better" ones is reasonable. every market has its supply and demand factors.
~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~
Take away the risk and it would make flying around in space utterly pointless.
Take away the flying around part and you make EVE into a space themed spreadsheet application. |
Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Guardians of the Dawn
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.17 21:49:00 -
[7]
Rigs are only expensie when you are lazy. I collect enough material to make 2 rigs per day. That just by ratign the same way I always used to do. Loosign no more than a few extra seconds per wreck.
There is no need for Salvage increase 10 fold.
The only thing needed is make the non usefull rigs, usefull.
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough |
Richard Aiel
Caldari
MicroFunks
|
Posted - 2007.07.17 21:52:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Rigs are only expensie when you are lazy. I collect enough material to make 2 rigs per day. That just by ratign the same way I always used to do. Loosign no more than a few extra seconds per wreck.
There is no need for Salvage increase 10 fold.
The only thing needed is make the non usefull rigs, usefull.
This is true too... I collect enough mats to make a rig on at least a daily basis as I am a carebear mission runner alt that makes money for my PVP main...
or I am now lol
Though it'll be a while before I skill up enough to really stick my toe into the water of the PVP pond lol
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Yay! I can come up with good ideas too!
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=548436&page=2 |
Hannobaal
Gallente
Dragonfire Intergalactic Crusaders of Krom
Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2007.07.17 21:58:00 -
[9]
If you don't think they are useful enough to warrant the current price, don't use them. They were never meant to be something you put on every ship anyway.
If enough people feel the same way (about rigs in general) prices (over all) will drop. If prices don't drop, it means enough people feel that they are useful enough to warrant the current prices.
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syphurous
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.07.17 22:00:00 -
[10]
Make them cheaper ? So I skill trained for nothing ? Are you going to reinbuse me for my SP ? NO ? STFU and stop being lazy and go salvage yourself. I too can make 2 rigs a day too myself and I do maybe 2 or 3 lvl 3 missions with a little bit of ratting till downtime.
Its so easy to collect enough salvage with a dedicated salvage boat, salvage modules on dedicated combat ships is a waste of time & will only make it longer to complete or salavage a mission.
______________________________
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Hannobaal
Gallente
Dragonfire Intergalactic Crusaders of Krom
Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2007.07.17 22:02:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Hannobaal on 17/07/2007 22:03:25
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Rigs are only expensie when you are lazy. I collect enough material to make 2 rigs per day. That just by ratign the same way I always used to do. Loosign no more than a few extra seconds per wreck.
There is no need for Salvage increase 10 fold.
The only thing needed is make the non usefull rigs, usefull.
You do realize that since you can sell those materials directly on the market for money, it is actually costing you money to build those rigs? The only saving you're making is the difference between the cost of the materials (needed to build a certain rig) on the market and the cost of the rigs on the market (in other words, the rig manufacturer's profit).
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Eralus
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Posted - 2007.07.17 22:07:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Eralus on 17/07/2007 22:09:00
Originally by: Jojo Yohan
I think something needs to be addressed about the price of rigs. For 6 rigs that I want to make it will cost me over 400mil. The prices outrageous. I think you need to halve or further reduce the component needs for rigs or start npc sell order to put a max on the component prices.
Whine, whine, whine.
What's your point?
Did it ever occur to you that rigs are SUPPOSED to be expensive? That most people are NOT supposed to have all the rigs they want precisely BECAUSE they can't afford it?
I'd like all the best named modules too, but it would cost me several billion ISK to do that. Oh nos! CCP better fix best named module pricing!
Lots of ships have empty rig slots. That's exactly the way it should be. Rigs ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE BALANCED WITH MODULES! Modules are SUPPOSED to have much lower component costs than rigs do. Just like it doesn't make sense to spend a billion on a named faction shield boost amplifier when you have 5 empty mid-slots, it doesn't make sense to spend 10 million on a rig when you can buy 6 slots worth of regular modules.
But once you've got your module slots full with good equipment, then maybe it IS worth paying 10 million or 20 million or 30 million for a rig that is the only way left to make your ship even better than it alread is.
And to the original poster, #1 and #2 are THE POINT. It's designed that way intentionally. Rigs were not introduced so that a ship that, say, used to get a 40% bonus to armor resists can now have an 80% bonus to armor resist. The were put in place so that a ship that had 40% bonus to armor resists could ALSO have, say, a bonus to agility or velocity or capacitor. Rigs are meant to let you 'even out' your ship a bit, not take an already specialized ship and make it EVEN MORE specialized.
_____
Lifewire is a big, ugly, mean... carebear. |
Lowanaera
Amarr
Paladin Imperium
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.07.17 22:10:00 -
[13]
Most T1 rigs are currently pretty perfectly priced, expensive enough to not be tossed on T1 frigs or other silliness, cheap enough to still be worth putting on T2-fitted BS and other nice setups without drastically increasing the price.
Point 1 you are correct on though, as I've yet to see a setup where trading a damage mod and tank rig with a relatively minor downside for a tank mod and stacking-penalized damage rig with an often significant downside is a good choice.
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Lock out
Bald Industrial Corporation
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Posted - 2007.07.17 22:14:00 -
[14]
I agree that material cost for a rig should be balanced with the its usefulness (capacitor storage rig costing 3 times as much as the recharge rig doesn't make sense, etc.)
I think the prices for the popular t1 rigs are reasonable, though. 40mil for a rig makes sense if they're meant to be used like "ship implants." However, I think t2 rig costs are too high... the materials used exclusively in these could stand to see a drop rate increase. Ideally, I think the t2 rig build cost should be around 3 times the cost of the t1 version. Any more than that and they're just not worth using, IMO. |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.07.17 22:17:00 -
[15]
speaking of which
a snake implant set cost like 1 bil
this is not good compared to the bonus it gives
whine
lol
-----------------------------------
I'm working my way through college
target CCP |
Kharadran Sullath
Caldari
IntoXication Inc
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Posted - 2007.07.17 22:19:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Kharadran Sullath on 17/07/2007 22:20:02
1. No, you use rigs to modify different stats than those of your fitted modules.
2. I could perhaps agree with you on this, if it concerns rigs that effect the same stat but with worse/better improvements/penalties. As opposed to "I think these rigs should cost less since stat X is less vital than stat Y".
3. Why was it the gravest mistake?
Rigs work as they do because of the devs intention to make them free from the size restrictions that mods have, if you couldn't fit any rig on any ship they might as well have added extra slots.
------
--Don't get saucy with me Bernaise!-- |
Tobias Sjodin
Ore Mongers
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.07.17 22:20:00 -
[17]
Don't like rigs, don't use them!
I like rigs fine.
I'd rather get rid of the whiners.
- Recruitment open again-
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Banana Torres
The Green Banana Corporation
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Posted - 2007.07.17 22:20:00 -
[18]
The market will ensure that rig prices will fall to just above the cost of producing them.
The raw materials are obtained as a by-product of doing something else, so they will fall pretty low.
So the total cost for making a rig will be pretty low + the cost of renting a factory. So thats not much.
Then you have to add on the profit of the manufacturer, but as the cost of the rig BPOs are loose change this will pretty minimal. So the final price of rigs will be not much + pretty minimal.
Dunno how long will take, but I would say, looking at the market, that its only a few months away now.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.07.17 22:21:00 -
[19]
player driven economy means it's not CCP's job to balance the price. yes they can a bit, but just like in real life the newer something is the less of it there is.
as times goes on more of that something is more available.
CCP does not put a cap on rig components.
it puts into action something that will set how fast they become available based on how many players will be mining it.
if they make rig components drop ten times faster then yes they will be cheaper for a while. and then they will fall, and fall, and fall and fall. until salvaging becomes pointless and selling rigs is stupid. then the price will raise.
CCP DOES NOT CONTROL THE MARKET
-----------------------------------
I'm working my way through college
target CCP |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Namtz'aar k'in
|
Posted - 2007.07.17 22:22:00 -
[20]
Edited by: MotherMoon on 17/07/2007 22:22:45
also why do small ships need rigs?
you CAN buy a whole snake set for your frigate...
are you saying implant sets are overpriced and should have their drop rate increased by 10 as well?
-----------------------------------
I'm working my way through college
target CCP |
Richard Aiel
Caldari
MicroFunks
|
Posted - 2007.07.17 22:27:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
Don't like rigs, don't use them!
I like rigs fine.
I'd rather get rid of the whiners.
lol...
There are too many whiners... CCP please nerf the whiners!!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Yay! I can come up with good ideas too!
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=548436&page=2 |
Vincenzo Delloro
Amarr
Lux et Veritas
|
Posted - 2007.07.17 22:36:00 -
[22]
I like the idea of rigs as they stand, but I'm cautious that they'll be turned into just another kind of module.
They should have a significant effect on a certain aspect of your ship's performance, uninfluenced by modules.
For the same reason, I don't think splitting rigs up into different "sized" modules is the answer, or having them have different effects on different sized ships. Their effects should be entirely percentage based, otherwise they really do run the risk of just morphing into yet another kind of module in yet another kind of slot.
Perhaps changing them so that they have an impact on a specific skill rather than a ship's attribute: one might increase the effect your Engineering skill has on your ship and its modules, another might do the same for Astrometrics, etc
That would certainly make them more like "implants for ships" than the current incarnation.
I have no problem with the price though, salvaging is currently an excellent way for new characters to make decent ISK relatively quickly.
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Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2007.07.17 22:36:00 -
[23]
Remember kids, rigs are free if you salvage the materials yourself... 
-
I wish I was a three foot female doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes. |
Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
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Posted - 2007.07.17 23:11:00 -
[24]
i dont mind the price... however, that indeed works in favor of the already-big ships. i don't have a solution for this one bare this ugly idea that employs the same function as lock time:
rig effectiveness = 5* current value / arcsinhyp (signature)
x_X
- frigs gain up to ~25%
- BS lose ~25%
- target painting would be fun again :D
- minnie titan would be fun again =)
however, this screws greatly with fitting relevant stuff like the PG rig.
which brings us to the next problem children: rigs without drawbacks...
- electronic rigs are mostly "harmless", the ECM rig belons to ~superiority anyway. a drawback is indeed not necessary.
- but then theres the energy grid rigs.... the cpu drawback would have made a lot more sense here than with drone rigs.
- maybe increased mass for drone rigs.. or increased duration of energy emission =)
-
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Marilda
Amarr
Big Brother Holding Company
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Posted - 2007.07.17 23:43:00 -
[25]
True there are a lot of people salvaging, but most of what is collected is pretty much useless, like cables. The base of most rigs are burned logic, charred micro, fried circuit boards and to a lesser extent tripped power. Unless you are in a corp or gang geared towards salvage, then it is doubtful that you will be able to collect enough to produce a rig a day.... especially for something such as capacitor control unit... which on an unresearched BPO requires 25 capacitors... well maybe running lvl 4 missions you may get the capacitors, but is doubtful if you would get the logic boards (about 100).
Just taking the component costs, most of the rigs have a very low profit margin. And the recent changes make certain of the rigs uneconomic to produce - such as the salvage I, which now requires armour plates, and at about 12-15mill is vastly underpriced. And the current price reflects the pre-patch price.
The major difference between salvage and mining is that you cannot specify what materials you will get to use in manufacture. If anything needs to change, then perhaps skills need to be added, similar to the industrial skills of ore processing, so that you stand a better chance of getting the components you want when salvaging a wreck.
------
Yes but does it make money? |
Tortun Nahme
Minmatar
Heimatar Services Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2007.07.17 23:45:00 -
[26]
my corp industrialist produces 8 rigs a day on my salvage alone
but I've been grinding level 4's lately
Real turtles tank armor.
Real men fly Pink.
Nerfageddon |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2007.07.17 23:52:00 -
[27]
"Back when I started rigging in Feburary, T1 rigs sold for around 100 million plus each...
NOW look at the prices... But YET...
Showing what youve found to be wrong with them, NOTHING has changed now that the price has dropped by 10x"
Price has been high in the 100-mil range in the begining because drop rates of CIRCUITS was NEGLIGIBLE compared to rest of components, and overall drop rates were much lower.
Look closer to how price of rigs fluctuated.
"rigs are coming down in price as more people are taking the time to build rather than just sell the components, soon(tm) they will be perfectly reasonable"
Rig prices are pretty much stable since a good while.
Any and all temporary slight drops in prices you're seing is somebody liquidating stocks of either rigs or components.
"Rigs are only expensie when you are lazy."
Rigs are barely worth a bit more as their components.
Selling all salvage and buying rigs, or buying salvage and then building rigs, not much of a difference.
10-15% at most, for a vast majority of rigs.
"They were never meant to be something you put on every ship anyway."
Wrong. That's pretty much what the devs SAID about rigs when ANNOUNCED as pending.
The means to TWEAK your ship to better reflect your playstyle.
That's why rigs (most of them anyway) have DRAWBACKS.
They're WERE supposed to be *modifications* to your ship, not flat-out *improvements*.
As such, they have failed. Some ARE improvements, some are mods.
But price dictates you will only use the ones without actual drawbacks, unless you don't ever care about ISK.
"Make them cheaper ? So I skill trained for nothing ? Are you going to reinbuse me for my SP ? NO ? STFU and stop being lazy and go salvage yourself. "
HA !?!?! What SKILLS would be rendered USELESS if you make rigs cheaper through any means ?
The "per hour" income of a salvager and/or rig manufacturer will remain the SAME, or even INCREASE.
If you don't understand a thing about EVE's economy, better remain silent than say something as monumentally wrong as that.
"Did it ever occur to you that rigs are SUPPOSED to be expensive?
That most people are NOT supposed to have all the rigs they want precisely BECAUSE they can't afford it?"
Ever occured ?
NO.
Because, as previously said, devs SPECIFICALLY said so before they went "live".
And since then, they haven't made ANY statements regarding their intended pricing/use/whatever, so I can only assume they secretly changed their stance on them but "conveniently failed to announce it", or just don't realy care about rigs either way because "meh, they somewhat work, so why bother" (which is a much more likely scenario).
speaking of which
a snake implant set cost like 1 bil
this is not good compared to the bonus it gives
Quite the contrary, rigs are the exact opposite.
With modules/implants, something ever so SLIGHTLY more useful has a MUCH, much higher pricetag, orders of magnitude higher.
With rigs, something practically worthless has a comparable sales value to something extremely valuable.
THAT is what I'm talking about "price being wrong".
If the "worthless" rigs would cost 100k-500k ISK and the "uber" rigs would cost something like 100 mil each, I'd be happy.
Char creation guide | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
Entity One
|
Posted - 2007.07.17 23:56:00 -
[28]
Rig prices don't bother me at all. Whoever is willing to put more into their ship gets to enjoy the advantage. Rich men with balls with fly with fully rigged up ships, the same way they may use deadspace/officer items in risky pvp scenarios.
What DOES bother me is the fact that rigs stack with modules. If rigs are going to stack with modules, the rigs may as well be on par (or close to it) with their module counterparts. Atm they're not, therefore they're utterly useless. Why use damage rigs when a single damage mod is far more effective?
Nonetheless, I don't have many complaints about rigs because the only two rigs I use (Nano pumps and Grid rigs) are sexy as hell.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2007.07.18 00:00:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Akita T on 18/07/2007 00:00:51
It's the combination of all factors (stack-nerfing rules, relative prices among rigs vs usefulness and/or overall rig price, same cost regardless of ship size) that make rigs "mostly useless".
Fixing some of the issues (not necessarily ALL of them) would make them feasable in most cases.
Fixing all issues would make them useful for just about anything.
Char creation guide | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
Landrassa
Astral Resource Cartel
|
Posted - 2007.07.18 00:03:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Marilda
Just taking the component costs, most of the rigs have a very low profit margin. And the recent changes make certain of the rigs uneconomic to produce - such as the salvage I, which now requires armour plates, and at about 12-15mill is vastly underpriced. And the current price reflects the pre-patch price.
Oh dear....ever considered working with rig bpo's that are actually researched to perfect ME? Takes less than 2 days in a POS. Without going into too much detail about where I get my components, at the current prices going for salvage components in the regions where I do most of my business I can build the most expensive armor rigs for around 8.5M...so a 40-90% profit margin sounds, well, pretty acceptable.
As for cables being useless, compare the build price of an Ancillary Current Router I to the market price some time...
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As I walk in the Valley of the Omber of Death, I shall have no fear... |
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