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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.07.18 00:12:00 -
[31]
Non-researched BP and no levels in PE -vs- non-researched BP and PE5 -vs- max-researched BP (regardless of PE skill level, by the way) ?
It's 135% -vs- 110% -vs- (practically) 100% of "perfect recycle" component cost.
Not that much of a difference if you ask me.
Certainly nowhere near 80-90%.
It's mostly the buy/sell orders, not the manufacturing skills... those can only account for 35% markup, tops.
Char creation guide | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
syphurous
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.07.18 00:13:00 -
[32]
If rigs / salvage are too cheap, & there's very little profit, why would I bother making them ? What would those skills be useful for now ? Wasted SP. To make some rigs you need relivant skills, more skills I'd no longer use.
RE:"Did it ever occur to you that rigs are SUPPOSED to be expensive?
That most people are NOT supposed to have all the rigs they want precisely BECAUSE they can't afford it?"
 Quote:
Because, as previously said, devs SPECIFICALLY said so before they went "live".
Link me to the thread/s this is said, personally I remember reading the exact opposite.
RE: Not possible to make a rig a day.
Its very possible to make atleast 2 rigs a day when solo, if your not able to, your not doing it right.
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Tortun Nahme
Minmatar
Heimatar Services Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.18 00:14:00 -
[33]
then the obvious answer is to remove npc buy offers for salvage
Real turtles tank armor.
Real men fly Pink.
Nerfageddon |
William Hamilton
Caldari
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS....
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.07.18 00:18:00 -
[34]
Once I can consider fitting 3 ECM rigs on a griffin rigs will be fixed.
First post is dead on, especialy the first point.
Stack nefing rigs and mods seperatley is a must, it lets us kit our ships out for full damage or for full tank, and actualy makes the drawbacks mean something.
I would also make the rigs that don't have drawbacks right now get drawbacks, perhaps -PG for the electronics rigs and -cpu ofr the power/cap rigs?
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An Anarchyyt
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2007.07.18 00:21:00 -
[35]
Originally by: William Hamilton
Once I can consider fitting 3 ECM rigs on a griffin rigs will be fixed.
Only when I can do everything I want with it, will anything be fixed.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.07.18 00:21:00 -
[36]
"If rigs / salvage are too cheap, & there's very little profit, why would I bother making them ?"
Some quick and simple MATH.
You now salvage components for, say, 5 rigs a day.
If a 10-fold increase in salvage drops is made, you will be salvaging components for 50 rigs a day.
Sure, you'll sell EACH of the rigs at ROUGHLY 10 times less, but you'll be selling 10 times more rigs.
Overall, your profit remains the same.
As for the argument of "WILL you be capable of selling 10 times more rigs", as in "is anybody going to buy 10 times more rigs as usual" ?
The answer is hell, yeah!
Why ? One phrase : "cheap enough to fit to throw-away PvP ships (cruisers, probably destroyers, even some frigates)".
I'm willing to bet the "volumetric demand" of 10-times-cheaper rigs will be HIGHER as 10 times the current "volume demand" value.
Quote:
Quote:
Because, as previously said, devs SPECIFICALLY said so before they went "live".
Link me to the thread/s this is said, personally I remember reading the exact opposite.
Kind of hard to do that.
They DELETED the sub-forum itself, with almost every thread in it.
A couple select thread were moved before that, most of it was simply dropped.
Should probably dig through eve-search archeives, maybe they still have that sub-forum mirrored (the "Kali developement" sub-forum).
Char creation guide | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
Hannobaal
Gallente
Dragonfire Intergalactic Crusaders of Krom
Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2007.07.18 00:49:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Landrassa
Originally by: Marilda
Just taking the component costs, most of the rigs have a very low profit margin. And the recent changes make certain of the rigs uneconomic to produce - such as the salvage I, which now requires armour plates, and at about 12-15mill is vastly underpriced. And the current price reflects the pre-patch price.
Oh dear....ever considered working with rig bpo's that are actually researched to perfect ME? Takes less than 2 days in a POS. Without going into too much detail about where I get my components, at the current prices going for salvage components in the regions where I do most of my business I can build the most expensive armor rigs for around 8.5M...so a 40-90% profit margin sounds, well, pretty acceptable.
As for cables being useless, compare the build price of an Ancillary Current Router I to the market price some time...
He probably buys the components from sell orders (probably in Jita at that). 
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William Hamilton
Caldari
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS....
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.07.18 00:57:00 -
[38]
Originally by: An Anarchyyt
Originally by: William Hamilton
Once I can consider fitting 3 ECM rigs on a griffin rigs will be fixed.
Only when I can do everything I want with it, will anything be fixed.
I dodn't say that...
Rigs were designed to be able to be fit on any ship, and designed so you can seriously buff one area of your ship at the expense of seriously nerfing another area....
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.07.18 00:59:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 18/07/2007 00:27:18
"If rigs / salvage are too cheap, & there's very little profit, why would I bother making them ?"
Some quick and simple MATH.
You now salvage components for, say, 5 rigs a day.
If a 10-fold increase in salvage drops is made, you will be salvaging components for 50 rigs a day.
Sure, you'll sell EACH of the rigs at ROUGHLY 10 times less, but you'll be selling 10 times more rigs.
Overall, your profit remains the same.
As for the argument of "WILL you be capable of selling 10 times more rigs", as in "is anybody going to buy 10 times more rigs as usual" ?
The answer is hell, yeah!
Why ? One phrase : "cheap enough to fit to throw-away PvP ships (cruisers, probably destroyers, even some frigates)".
I'm willing to bet the "volumetric demand" of 10-times-cheaper rigs will be HIGHER as 10 times the current "volume demand" value.
Quote:
Quote:
Because, as previously said, devs SPECIFICALLY said so before they went "live".
Link me to the thread/s this is said, personally I remember reading the exact opposite.
Kind of hard to do that.
They DELETED the sub-forum itself, with almost every thread in it.
A couple select thread were moved before that, most of it was simply dropped.
Should probably dig through eve-search archeives, maybe they still have that sub-forum mirrored (the "Kali developement" sub-forum).
Ah there you go, found the defunct subforum. Knock yourself out w
th deleted stuff.
so for a quicky 1 mil a titan could get 5% more cap? Great.
-----------------------------------
I'm working my way through college
target CCP |
Hannobaal
Gallente
Dragonfire Intergalactic Crusaders of Krom
Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2007.07.18 01:05:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Akita T
"They were never meant to be something you put on every ship anyway."
Wrong. That's pretty much what the devs SAID about rigs when ANNOUNCED as pending.
The means to TWEAK your ship to better reflect your playstyle.
That's why rigs (most of them anyway) have DRAWBACKS.
They're WERE supposed to be *modifications* to your ship, not flat-out *improvements*.
As such, they have failed. Some ARE improvements, some are mods.
But price dictates you will only use the ones without actual drawbacks, unless you don't ever care about ISK.
I specifically remember reading in an interview (early this year) with one of the devs about 'heat', where he was contrasting it with the rigs, and he refered to rigs as being intended as a means to "pimp up" your ship.
That doesn't sound to me like something meant to be added to all ships in the way regular modules are, but like something you might add on to your ship if possible to give it a little extra.
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Guardians of the Dawn
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.18 01:06:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Hannobaal
Edited by: Hannobaal on 17/07/2007 22:03:25
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Rigs are only expensie when you are lazy. I collect enough material to make 2 rigs per day. That just by ratign the same way I always used to do. Loosign no more than a few extra seconds per wreck.
There is no need for Salvage increase 10 fold.
The only thing needed is make the non usefull rigs, usefull.
You do realize that since you can sell those materials directly on the market for money, it is actually costing you money to build those rigs? The only saving you're making is the difference between the cost of the materials (needed to build a certain rig) on the market and the cost of the rigs on the market (in other words, the rig manufacturer's profit).
but you want to have both thae cake and eat it? Th epoint is the prices are riduculowsly high because people are too lazy. With a minimal tiem cost you can get your rigs without spendign any isk. If they increase ammount of salvage drop to reduce rig price you also get less of your sales. So stop complaining and collect more.
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.07.18 01:09:00 -
[42]
It can already get either +62.83% cap recharge rate (and unchanged maxcap) or +52.08% to both maxcap and cap recharge rate for a negligible price compared to the barebones hull cost. Heck, throw in another +5% maxcap and a total cummulative +10.52% recharge rate from implants too.
If anything, the "differentiate prices more between good rigs and lousy rigs" would change the fiting cost UPWARDS compared to current value, for those rigs.
If the "make rigs batches and adjust need of rigs per slot depending on ship size", the fiting cost would either remain unchanged compared to now, or it could be INCREASED as many times as you want, through the adjustemnt of "rigs pe slot" in a Titan. Heck, who said a Titan slot couldn't need, say, 100 rigs instead of the "usual" batch of 10 ?
I fail to see any problem with either of the individual ideas OR the combined package.
Char creation guide | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Namtz'aar k'in
|
Posted - 2007.07.18 01:12:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Akita T
It can already get either +62.83% cap recharge rate (and unchanged maxcap) or +52.08% to both maxcap and cap recharge rate for a negligible price compared to the barebones hull cost. Heck, throw in another +5% maxcap and a total cummulative +10.52% recharge rate from implants too.
If anything, the "differentiate prices more between good rigs and lousy rigs" would change the fiting cost UPWARDS compared to current value, for those rigs.
If the "make rigs batches and adjust need of rigs per slot depending on ship size", the fiting cost would either remain unchanged compared to now, or it could be INCREASED as many times as you want, through the adjustemnt of "rigs pe slot" in a Titan. Heck, who said a Titan slot couldn't need, say, 100 rigs instead of the "usual" batch of 10 ?
I fail to see any problem with either of the individual ideas OR the combined package.
I do
but I don't see anything wrong with better rigs being more expensive while the rest are cheaper.
but I bet a dev rolled his eyes at your times 10. that's where I see a problem.
maybe an increase of 20% but even that would have a big effect on the market.
-----------------------------------
I'm working my way through college
target CCP |
Hannobaal
Gallente
Dragonfire Intergalactic Crusaders of Krom
Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2007.07.18 01:17:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
The point is the prices are riduculowsly high because people are too lazy. With a minimal tiem cost you can get your rigs without spendign any isk.
When you use up materials that are worth a certain amount of ISK on the market, you ARE SPENDING ISK.
However, if you're point is that the rigs are expensive because not enough people salvage, then I might agree with you.
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Tortun Nahme
Minmatar
Heimatar Services Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.18 01:19:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Hannobaal
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
The point is the prices are riduculowsly high because people are too lazy. With a minimal tiem cost you can get your rigs without spendign any isk.
When you use up materials that are worth a certain amount of ISK on the market, you ARE SPENDING ISK.
However, if you're point is that the rigs are expensive because not enough people salvage, then I might agree with you.
then the question is, WHY are those items worth so much on the market if rigs are so worthless?
Real turtles tank armor.
Real men fly Pink.
Nerfageddon |
Hannobaal
Gallente
Dragonfire Intergalactic Crusaders of Krom
Dark Matter Coalition
|
Posted - 2007.07.18 01:23:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Tortun Nahme
Originally by: Hannobaal
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
The point is the prices are riduculowsly high because people are too lazy. With a minimal tiem cost you can get your rigs without spendign any isk.
When you use up materials that are worth a certain amount of ISK on the market, you ARE SPENDING ISK.
However, if you're point is that the rigs are expensive because not enough people salvage, then I might agree with you.
then the question is, WHY are those items worth so much on the market if rigs are so worthless?
The answer (aside from not enough people salvaging to increase the supply) is that many of us do NOT consider rigs to be worthless and so we keep them in demand.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.07.18 01:25:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Tortun Nahme
Originally by: Hannobaal
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
The point is the prices are riduculowsly high because people are too lazy. With a minimal tiem cost you can get your rigs without spendign any isk.
When you use up materials that are worth a certain amount of ISK on the market, you ARE SPENDING ISK.
However, if you're point is that the rigs are expensive because not enough people salvage, then I might agree with you.
then the question is, WHY are those items worth so much on the market if rigs are so worthless?
SOME rigs are worth their price.
The REST of the rigs however are not even remotely worth it.
However, the way individual components in USELESS rigs are also used in USEFUL rigs dictates a certain price for those components, which in turn dictate the price for the rest of the rigs.
Would "worthless" rigs only use components used by OTHER "worthless" rigs and none (or very, very few) of the ones used by "awesome" rigs, you'll quickly see a huge drop in "worthless" rig prices and probably a slight increase in "useful" rig prices (or no increase at all, might depend).
Char creation guide | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
Tortun Nahme
Minmatar
Heimatar Services Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2007.07.18 01:40:00 -
[48]
then really, the only people "losing" that markup on their rigs are the people PAYING for that salvage. The potential value of an item cant be calculated based solely on the current market value.
a simplified breakdown
assume said rig takes 3 gizmoz, 10 doohickies, and 27 whatchmacallits
avg cost for the rig is 500k
production costs 10000 isk
cost of buying 1 gizmo is 100k
cost of buying 1 doohicky is 1k
cost of buying 1 whatchamacallit is 500 isk
cost of buying materials 323500, add build costs so the total markup 283500
now player 2 comes along and salvages his own materials, he spends TIME rather than isk gathering his materials, meaning he likely can't build as many, but his overhead is alot lower because he has not spent the isk to purchase the materials
he "could" have sold the materials for 323500 but that is potential profit, not cost, the only cost counted in final markup is production and gathering costs, so his total overhead was 10000 and his markup was 490000
I will elaborate further when i get hom, time to logoffski from work 
Real turtles tank armor.
Real men fly Pink.
Nerfageddon |
Frug
Zenithal Harvest
|
Posted - 2007.07.18 01:41:00 -
[49]
I'm not gonna scroll through and read everything here. I'll just say that I'd considered what the OP says when rigs first came out. Capacitor Control Circuit rigs are damn good and have no drawbacks. If you talk to mission runners, what's the setup? Raven with 3 CCC rigs. Why? No drawbacks, no stack nerf. Just throw on those Cap rigs, they're way better than all the other junk.
So that's imba, right? Well no, I don't think so now that I've started making my own rigs. You make the CCC rigs, and then make other (useless) rigs with the leftovers. THOSE are practically free. You end up with these spare parts that are not used in CCC or in cargohold rigs, which are worth garbage on the market, so you put out all these "worthless" stack nerfed rigs.
Those rigs are cheap. I don't think it's a problem.
As for the size thing. I dunno. Rigs are for big ships, and if you feel like rigging up a frig, that's just funny, which adds some diversity.
- - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - -
If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO
BOOO!! - Ductoris
Neat look what I found - Kreul
Hey, my marbles |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.07.18 02:20:00 -
[50]
Tortun Nahme, the oncept you are struggling to ignore is called opportunity cost, and as incredible as it might sound to you right now, it IS an actual cost.
Basically, you are saying now is "stuff I collect myself is free, because my time is worth nothing".
But then again, why don't you extend the same logic to everything else ? Oh, because you realize THAT is wrong.
Well, so is ignoring opportunity cost.
Char creation guide | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
syphurous
Gallente
|
Posted - 2007.07.18 02:41:00 -
[51]
Edited by: syphurous on 18/07/2007 02:41:08
Originally by: Akita T
Ah there you go, found the defunct subforum. Knock yourself out with deleted stuff.
Right,...
I remember the "pimping" comment.
pimp+mo+bile [pimp-moh-beel, -muh-]
–noun Slang. a large, expensive, and ostentatious or vulgarly ornate automobile, typically one painted in bright colors and fitted out with a lavish or overelaborate interior.
[Origin: 1970–75, Americanism; pimp + -mobile]
I dont know how ghetto the pimpmobiles are round "yo burbs" but I dont think they come cheap.
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Hannobaal
Gallente
Dragonfire Intergalactic Crusaders of Krom
Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2007.07.18 03:04:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Akita T
SOME rigs are worth their price.
The REST of the rigs however are not even remotely worth it.
However, the way individual components in USELESS rigs are also used in USEFUL rigs dictates a certain price for those components, which in turn dictate the price for the rest of the rigs.
Would "worthless" rigs only use components used by OTHER "worthless" rigs and none (or very, very few) of the ones used by "awesome" rigs, you'll quickly see a huge drop in "worthless" rig prices and probably a slight increase in "useful" rig prices (or no increase at all, might depend).
I know what you're saying, but all that that means is rigs that are in less demand will be produced less instead of being sold for less. There is nothing wrong with that.
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Tortun Nahme
Minmatar
Heimatar Services Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.18 03:10:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Akita T
Tortun Nahme, the oncept you are struggling to ignore is called opportunity cost, and as incredible as it might sound to you right now, it IS an actual cost.
Basically, you are saying now is "stuff I collect myself is free, because my time is worth nothing".
But then again, why don't you extend the same logic to everything else ? Oh, because you realize THAT is wrong.
Well, so is ignoring opportunity cost.
no my arrogant and ignorant friend, I merely haven't finished yet.
First off, citing wikipedia as a source is instant fail
Second off, the pitfall section in the same article you linked exemplifies just how erronous your market calculations ARE.
Third off I have not stated anywhere that salvage I harvest myself is free, I have merely stated the market value is NOT the overhead cost of salvage I harvest myself. Nor is it the opportunity cost.
But since you brought it up. The opportunity cost of salvage at this time is the AVERAGE cost of salvage on the market, NOT the premium, The premium is an artifical high created by the larger rig manufacturing players who NEED that bulk salvage to stay afloat by selling MORE than other people who have a lower overhead.
The largest flaw in TRYING to calculate an opportunity cost in a game with a pseudoeconomy is the fact that harvest costs are essentially non-existant. You already must have a ship (in fact it is impossible NOT to have one) and the cost of a skill book and salvager is paid for essentially on your first run, whether you manufacture or simple liquidate the salvage.
This is compounded by the fact that salvage is a byproduct of an already lucrative buisness. The cost of salvaging a wreck is nothing but time. The cost of that time is determined by the use of it. Assuming for a moment that a ratter salvages 100k isk at premium worth of goods, enough to make 1 rig work 125k, now he has two options, sell it, or use it. If he sells it he makes a flat 100k isk (minues market fees of course) he LOSES out on the opportunity cost of the rig by 25k, however if he uses it, he does not lose out the opportunity cost of the salvage itself for two very important reasons, he has denied those resources to a competitor, and said competitor had to pay the 100k isk for their materials still. He also cuts out 1 set of market fees entirely. Furthermore, because he did not SPEND 100k isk he does not have that as overhead, He does not have to consider 100k overhead when setting his markup. He is free to undersell the other players thus insuring a much more likely sell to a consumer that is already fenced on whether to buy.
Now, you are probably rolling your eyes, considering how stupid I am because obviously players are going to sell their salvage for prime. And you are at least half right. No sensible trader WOULD sell for less than prime. HOWEVER, with the production costs being lower for the player/s doing their own salvage, they can CONTINUALLY undercut their competition and still profit, even if their markup is less than prime, because they will continually sell more rigs, and drive the player offering prime out of buisness. This is why the market value for salvage will continue to slowly fall (nearly every type of salvage continues to drop in heimatar region because there ARE smart marketters out there)
Now consider long term profit. Running fewer rigs at lower cost will net less total cash, but insure continued sales with an increase in profit as premium AND average cost salvage goes down. lets face it, no market can maintain insane prices unless there is A) a shortage of material (there isnt) or B) the market is being managed to intentionally stay high (oil anyone?)
even if you "could" consider premium as the opportunity cost (which it doesn't, research relative cost) the player using their own salvage is still making that cost up in their finished product
Real turtles tank armor.
Real men fly Pink.
Nerfageddon |
Hannobaal
Gallente
Dragonfire Intergalactic Crusaders of Krom
Dark Matter Coalition
|
Posted - 2007.07.18 03:26:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Tortun Nahme
he "could" have sold the materials for 323500 but that is potential profit, not cost, the only cost counted in final markup is production and gathering costs, so his total overhead was 10000 and his markup was 490000
Umm, no. Once the materials have been produced (in this case by salvaging) they've been produced. They are there, and they have a certain value. Their economic value doesn't change based on whether you bought them or produced them yourself.
Example:
If the total market value of what you salvaged is 9 mil ISK, then your salvaging has produced 9 mil ISK for you. Even if you don't sell them directly, that is the value of what you produced.
If you then use them up to produce a rig that is worth 10 mil ISK, then your total time and effort used for salvaging and rig production has produced 10 mil ISK for you, but the time and effort you spent producing the rig has only earned you 1 mil ISK. That's the value you've added onto the value of the materials by taking them and producing a rig from them.
Now, let's say that instead of salvaging you buy the materials on the market (same market with same prices) and then produce the rig. You buy materials for 9 mil off the market and produce a rig worth 10 mil. How much did you earn from producing the rig? 1 mil. Just like before.
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Tortun Nahme
Minmatar
Heimatar Services Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.18 03:31:00 -
[55]
read my last post
Real turtles tank armor.
Real men fly Pink.
Nerfageddon |
Hannobaal
Gallente
Dragonfire Intergalactic Crusaders of Krom
Dark Matter Coalition
|
Posted - 2007.07.18 03:42:00 -
[56]
You just don't understand economics. The "cost" is the time and effort you spent producing the salvage materials. If you weren't spending that part of your playing time salvaging, you could have been spending it doing something else that would have earned you ISK. That could be either directly in cash by killing NPCs for bounties in some belt, or in another indirect way like mining.
When you use up the materials, you are spending money. You are not spending actual cash, but you are spending money.
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Tortun Nahme
Minmatar
Heimatar Services Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.18 03:45:00 -
[57]
right, but how you are calculating the cost is inaccurate, I would suggest training trade up to 5
Real turtles tank armor.
Real men fly Pink.
Nerfageddon |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Namtz'aar k'in
|
Posted - 2007.07.18 03:48:00 -
[58]
lol wait a minute
wouldn't 10 times more players salvaging lead to the same thing as increasing the drop rate by 10?
-----------------------------------
I'm working my way through college
target CCP |
Hannobaal
Gallente
Dragonfire Intergalactic Crusaders of Krom
Dark Matter Coalition
|
Posted - 2007.07.18 03:52:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Tortun Nahme
right, but how you are calculating the cost is inaccurate, I would suggest training trade up to 5
I'm not trying to calculate any specific costs. Please reread the posts and try to understand.
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Hannobaal
Gallente
Dragonfire Intergalactic Crusaders of Krom
Dark Matter Coalition
|
Posted - 2007.07.18 03:59:00 -
[60]
Originally by: MotherMoon
lol wait a minute
wouldn't 10 times more players salvaging lead to the same thing as increasing the drop rate by 10?
If it weren't for missions it wouldn't necessarily, since there is only so many wrecks there to salvage regardless of how many are salvaging. Even with belt rats, there are only so many you can have per day with the time it takes for them to respawn.
However, with missioning there is actually a potentially infinite amount of wrecks available to salvage. Each additional salvager just has to go through the motion of running a mission to produce the additional wrecks that he will salvage.
So, it other words, with current game mechanics it would be the same.
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