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Lougra Gallente United Forces	Posted - 2007.07.19 07:57:00 - [31] Originally by: Dietes Marcellus Mining in EvE is not as profitable as it should be...every miner knows this. Specifics: 1. Takes too long for too little reward Close to 10m per hour in empire. 2. 0.0 mining requires the use of gaurds which are usually uncompliant due to boredom. Unless tanking (high skills) or gorilla tactics (inefficient) are used, mining is rendered useless. Use guards for your own safety. Give them a fair amount of what you get and both will be fine. 3. Gurista convoys and complexes are dropping millions of trit. pyrite, nox. iso, etc. Somebody ratting for an hour should not be able to yield 10 times as much minerals as somebody mining for an hour. Period. They are not frequent spawns. And trust me. A good miner needs a bit more than 2 hours to get 10m of trit. 4. A battleship fitted with T2 miners should not be able to yield even CLOSE to the amount that a MINING BARGE can. You have also the 'choice' to use a BS instead of a mining barge to mine your ore. You became miner by the proper skills and not of what you flying. The only real issue here is the price of mining barges BPOs. Why are so expensive when a BS can mine equaly and has greater defenses and BPOs are way much cheaper than barges? Solutions: 1. Make cycle times shorter Have you ever tried the 'service' of a mining director? 2. By makeing cycle times shorter, miners will have a higher yield, which in return will allow them to pay higher rates than that of a typica hours worth of ratting. This will make gaurding [somewhat] rational See the above answer
Lougra Gallente United Forces	Posted - 2007.07.19 08:11:00 - [32] Originally by: Lady Natacha I am not certain, and this is pure speculation on my part, but the new named ore and ice mining upgrades recently added may have a twofold intent since they increase yield and/or decrease cycle times. 1) Increased mining yield will increase profitability for miners NOW and reduce their "grind" a little. More ore per cycle is more cash, less work, and this encourages miners to come back to their trade. 2) Legitimate miners lured back to mining again will LATER help fill in the gap that will be left for minerals as the noose slowly closes on the isk-sellers and the farmers that feed them. If CCP can get isk farming/selling for rl cash down to a trickle (which it seems is starting to work), someone has to mine the mats. Less farmers saturating the market will cause prices to rise (miners profit) and increased yield helps the real miners to fill the void left behind by the farmers. Summary: By increasing the yield with the new mining upgrades, CCP may both encourage more mining and at the same time this will later help to offset the gap that will be caused as it becomes harder to farm to sell isk for cash. Named t2 MLUs costs near to 500-800m in market. This is not an action to encourage miners to continue mining. This is a t2 Wallet striping.
Santa Anna Caldari Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.07.19 08:55:00 - [33] I want to know more about the gorilla tactics mentioned by the OP. _____ Heat Warfare
Ssoraszh Tzarszh Minmatar Grumpy Old Farts Gruntfuttocks	Posted - 2007.07.19 09:43:00 - [34] @OP You have got to be kidding right? Try getting into the 't1 production' Every player with less than 2 braincells has totaly destroyed that market. It has become as bad that when you mine all the minerals for building a battleship. In stead of building it you just sell the minerals and buy the ship and a full t1 fitting and still have spare isk. Selling crap below its 'cost price' 4tw i guess, mining as it is now with all its 'buff's' it has recieved lately (last 1.5 years) is actually quite good. Heck, when i started we mined a whole belt on a saturday, full 8 hours with over 15 people. Yesterday someone's alt did the same in under 4 hours in a friggin barge. People allready have no clue what minerals mined are worth and have destroyed the t1 market long ago, with invention soon t2 will be unprofitable due to people 'being self sufficient' and dont taking into account that they could sell teh resources for 300 times the profit than what they sell their 'finished t2 product for'. That, needs attention. Not more minerals on the market due to a lower cycle time.
NOxximilian	Posted - 2007.07.19 10:12:00 - [35] Edited by: NOxximilian on 19/07/2007 10:12:52 I can't Agree more with Ssoraszh uphere. The mining ( ive done it myself ) has been boosted a dozens of times now and like we did in the early days, cleaned a belt with 15 people in 8 hours isnt reality anymore, give a trained character a Hulk and its clean in 4 hours. Another Thing Ssoraszh is pointing out is also very true from my experience. From origin im a Manufacturer, and the logical step with manufacturing for me is getting materials to build with. In real Life, when you manufacture you also do the following : Ask other company's or scoop stuff from the trademarket to manufacture your stuff. These materials : VERY important, Ad profit for the seller, and make profit for the manufacturer possible. As of now, when you for example want to build a Stabber T1. ( just as an example ) The minerals of of the market cost : arround 4.8 Mil isk. So if you want to make profit as a manufacturer you set in on 5 mil. to make a reasonable profit. - Result : Stabber is arround 5 mil. Miners who manufacture : The minerals of of the market cost : arround 4.8 Mil isk. Mining as allot of people call it is : "Free" ( totaly disagree but let's leave it at that. ) Miner manufacture and set the stabber up for sale for like arround 4 mil to compete with the manufacturers that sell at 5mil. - Result : Stabber is arround 4 mil. - Extra result : Manufacturers need to mine the ore themselves otherwise they can't make a living. The Logical step within the businesschain is complety gone or has gone missing within the Tier 1 manufacturing. 1. Raw ore 2. Mineral Sales on the market / Contract. 3. Manufacturing and selling on the market / Contract. 3a.The miners that sell there stuff cause mining is "free". 4. popping a ship and getting a new one :)
Cydrone Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.19 11:57:00 - [36] Agreed, it's just stupid business. Why bother undercutting and selling the product for 4 million when you can sell the minerals for 800k more? When I start looking up BPs to manufacture, I compare the cost of the materials I mine with the cost of the end product and I always end up selling the materials as is. The statement isn't "Mining isn't as profitable as it should be." It's "Mining isn't as profitable as I want it to be." Sure other aspects of the game factor in, but in the end the people involved play a much larger role in influencing the state of things. ------------------------ Greed is Eternal It doesn't think, It doesn't feel It doesn't laugh or cry All it does from dusk till dawn Is make the soldiers die. Currently Training: Folding Space Level 5
Dietes Marcellus	Posted - 2007.07.19 19:29:00 - [37] Okay nice replies, The manufacturing business is entirley different from the mineral trade, and yes many of your points do apply to that. T1 items have inflated greatly as will T2, but because of the games aspiration for PVP there will always be a demand for minerals. Buidling ships and selling them is entirley different than mining minerals and selling them in a literal sense and a markatable sense. When you sell ships your selling a somewhat smaller number so your going to want to get as much profit as you can from each unit. In minerals, your dealing with large quantities of units thefore the money is in volume. An example of this is how wholesale operations and supermarkets work. They do not make alot of money off each item, but they sell so many items to make up for it, whereas a car dealership (ship building) makes their money off each ship beacuse somebody is not going to buy 300 cruisers. The comment about trit. spawns being infrequent is not valid as a number of people near me have MILLIONS of selected minerals from these spawns, as they are avid ratters/pvp comabt ,spawns come frequently enough. I understand you can make 10 million/hour in empire, I suppose this thread is geared more toward mining in 0.0. The benefits/risk is a much different calibur than in empire. How is it you can make more than me mining per hour when the minerals out here are supposed to be incentive to be here? it doesn't add up. (aside from skill differences) For the prehistoric miners, its difficult for me to understand your position because obviously I am a newer player and have't been around as long as you, but your points are valid and agreeable. Gorilla tactics: mining by yourself is much different in 0.0. If you don't have the skills to tank ie:hulk with kinetic/thermal resistance and shield boosters (gurista) your a sitting duck. Locate a bunch of ideal minerals ina aSYSTEM (not just 1 belt) book mark them. start at one end mine until rats, leave a can there and proceed through your bookmarks until the time of your first can is running up. Go back get your hauler and run through the same belts in order. In a sense your making a trail through the system which you can align to so rats cant target you before you leave.
Lowanaera Amarr Paladin Imperium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.19 19:33:00 - [38] Edited by: Lowanaera on 19/07/2007 19:34:00 The biggest problem with mining is that the value increase across the spectrum from Veldspar to Arkanor is broken. Scordite and Kernite, high sec ores, are worth more ISK/hour than Pyroxeres, Plagiocase, Jaspet, and Omber, and are only barely worse than Hemorphite and Hedbergite. Ores were intended to be ranked alphabetically by value (other than the odd-ball Spod and Mercoxit), but that isn't the case, and low-sec/0.0 ores are supposed to be worth more than high-sec ores, but again with low-end 0.0 ores that isn't the case. Instead the price spectrum has: the crap no one mines, a not insignificant bump to Scordite/Kernite/Hed/Hemo, a 150% price bump to Gneiss/Dark Ochre, a 200% price bump to Crokite, and another 200% price bump to Arkanor with Bistot worth a bit less. The value spectrum is completely broken, especially when you factor in risk vs reward for those living in low-sec or non-prime 0.0 regions.
Rogen DarHeel	Posted - 2007.07.19 19:47:00 - [39] I find the complaint about not being able to make enough from mining in a barge laughable. Imagine gathering the minerals needed for a your first cruiser build with a 2 laser frigate. Also imagine how impossible it would be to make enough ISK to just buy the cruiser when T1 cruisers were more then double the prices they are now. This was the way of things when I first started EVE in 2003. There were no bargesn no strip miners and no T2 of any kind, not even T2 mining lasers. Things were sslloowww... to say the least. With veterans having played in such conditions, new players have no right to ask that they should be able to hop into a HULK run T2 everything and simply get rich. Mining is fine as it is as I see it as a vast improvement over what came before.
Lady Natacha Minmatar Water and Power	Posted - 2007.07.19 19:49:00 - [40] Originally by: Lougra Originally by: Lady Natacha I am not certain, and this is pure speculation on my part, but the new named ore and ice mining upgrades recently added may have a twofold intent since they increase yield and/or decrease cycle times. 1) Increased mining yield will increase profitability for miners NOW and reduce their "grind" a little. More ore per cycle is more cash, less work, and this encourages miners to come back to their trade. 2) Legitimate miners lured back to mining again will LATER help fill in the gap that will be left for minerals as the noose slowly closes on the isk-sellers and the farmers that feed them. If CCP can get isk farming/selling for rl cash down to a trickle (which it seems is starting to work), someone has to mine the mats. Less farmers saturating the market will cause prices to rise (miners profit) and increased yield helps the real miners to fill the void left behind by the farmers. Summary: By increasing the yield with the new mining upgrades, CCP may both encourage more mining and at the same time this will later help to offset the gap that will be caused as it becomes harder to farm to sell isk for cash. Named t2 MLUs costs near to 500-800m in market. This is not an action to encourage miners to continue mining. This is a t2 Wallet striping. Not all the named MLU upgrades are that expensive. And like all other "new" things, the price will fall over time. Demand for materials is always increasing as the player base increases. If the number of farmer/sellers is reduced. material supply will fall but demand is not going to follow it, this will increase prices. Unless there is then some incentive for the legitimate players to "take-up the slack" long-term, you will see a lot of mining initially because of the surge in prices but as the prices start to fall again, miners will again abandon mining unless the current time sink is reduced. I think that is exactly what the upgrades were intended to do. Take some of the time sink out of mining to get players to choose mining again as their chosen time sink (profession). Cats do play EVE. Where did you think player names like asdfghjj came from?

Dietes Marcellus	Posted - 2007.07.19 19:54:00 - [41] A newER player at just over 7 months now I didn't ask to just hop into anything.
Michael Harkonnen Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2007.07.19 19:54:00 - [42] Originally by: Santa Anna I want to know more about the gorilla tactics mentioned by the OP. That made me laugh out loud. Good spotting. Thanks.
Nestor II	Posted - 2007.07.19 20:09:00 - [43] The corp i am in did a mining op sunday and we cleared 3 belts in about 9 hours. We had 3 Hulks, 1 Covetor and 1 Retreiver, with 3 haulers working. Let me tell you this, if we got another boost to mining amount per cycle it would be criminal, plain and simple. I was the mining foreman and had the Mining Foreman Mindlink installed. In a Gang i currently sit just over 1607 units of ore per cycle per MSM II and i am still needing the slot 7 mining augmentation implant to give me that next boost to 1687 per cycle or thereabouts.
Dietes Marcellus	Posted - 2007.07.19 20:15:00 - [44] Originally by: Nestor II The corp i am in did a mining op sunday and we cleared 3 belts in about 9 hours. We had 3 Hulks, 1 Covetor and 1 Retreiver, with 3 haulers working. Let me tell you this, if we got another boost to mining amount per cycle it would be criminal, plain and simple. I was the mining foreman and had the Mining Foreman Mindlink installed. In a Gang i currently sit just over 1607 units of ore per cycle per MSM II and i am still needing the slot 7 mining augmentation implant to give me that next boost to 1687 per cycle or thereabouts. Well I wish I was in your corp then :)
Nian Banks Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir	Posted - 2007.07.19 20:42:00 - [45] I think the issue is not that of the amount of minerals you can mine but that the amount of minerals you need to make items. To reduce the price of high-sec minerals, you would need to reduce the amount needed in manufacturing. If you need millions of tritanium to make a ship but only a few thousand for a rarer mineral, then the volume of the trit needed will push its value up because of the demand for it. So to fix the mineral prices and also the T1 module/ship prices, CCP needs to reduce the low grade mineral needs a good bit and increase the high grade minerals by a fair amount also. The added bonus is that nubs would find it hard to produce their ships in empire without a supply chain for the high grade mins.
Princess Jodi Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.07.19 22:03:00 - [46] Mining is fine as it is. The whole thing with the new modules has been recognized by CCP and will be nerfed someday, so I won't be spending half a bill each for modules needed to outmine a Hulk. Now, I am very sympathetic to miners, being an industralist at heart myself. All I can say - and this is my personal experience talking - is that you're in the wrong corp and the wrong space. Come to the Drone Regions. We have finally had our asteroids fixed, and just yesterday we were discussing how the proper application of force in the recent conflicts have netted us a secure environment for mining and industry. This discussion was going on while we had small mining ops going on in 5 different systems. Not one hostile within 25 jumps of our location. Some were tanking a few rats for a group of miners, others were ninja-mining until a spawn showed up. Every single one of us was mining nothing but Ark and Bistrot and Crok. We had local open, but monitoring the alliance and intel channels showed us that there were no hostiles to worry about. In fact, the asteroids are so virgin out here that you can mine whatever you want for as long as you want, and at worst have to jump 2 systems to hit a refinery. There are POS's everywhere and Freighters to haul to refineries. The market is so barren that even T1 Rockets will sell for 5x Empire price and people will be glad to pay. As far as a Corp, you do things together - not solo. So a basic setup is a Dominx who tanks (Usually an afk alt or else someone mining with drones a bit). A few haulers, dependant on the amount of ore volume and the distance to a station/pos. Then as many miners as you can get. There is no 'Guard' - you watch channels or keep in contact with ratters in the incomming systems. My standard formula is one share for each main character, plus a half-share for each alt they run. It does not matter what roles you play - they all pay the same. This is our way of helping the newer players, paying someone to Tank the rats for us, and spreading the wealth. Mins are pooled and split. Frequently, people will buy your share because they want to build. So: Dont' worry about the Roch-outmining-Hulk thing. No need to change mining. Just change your tactics.
Ssoraszh Tzarszh Minmatar Grumpy Old Farts Gruntfuttocks	Posted - 2007.07.20 11:04:00 - [47] On the subject of haulerspawns i agree, it was ridiculous, bit lately i have seen that the number of minerals that drop hoin one spawn have drasticaly decreased. From spawns that used to drop 15 mil trit to about 3 mil trit. It may be that the 15 mil drops are still out there vut they seem to be less of an occurence to me. Thus i would say that mining is still a viable option in 0.0 Albeit mining in 0.0 is not done solo, the reality of it is that its not 'meant' to be soloable. I know many things that are deemed for groups are quite soloable due to exploitation (no not cheat) of the dumb ai or using a setup that counters npc statistics (out of range and so). But Endgame for Eve is group/corp/alliance. As most mmo's have.
Lougra Gallente United Forces	Posted - 2007.07.20 12:44:00 - [48] Originally by: Nestor II The corp i am in did a mining op sunday and we cleared 3 belts in about 9 hours. We had 3 Hulks, 1 Covetor and 1 Retreiver, with 3 haulers working. Let me tell you this, if we got another boost to mining amount per cycle it would be criminal, plain and simple. I was the mining foreman and had the Mining Foreman Mindlink installed. In a Gang i currently sit just over 1607 units of ore per cycle per MSM II and i am still needing the slot 7 mining augmentation implant to give me that next boost to 1687 per cycle or thereabouts. Depends on where you mine. If is empire, that time is too much mate. If is 0.0, youre too lucky if you manage to mine for 9 hours p.s. in empire i need a bit more than 2 hours to clean a fresly spawned belt
DarkMatter Sintered Sanity	Posted - 2007.07.20 13:32:00 - [49] Quote: 3. Gurista convoys and complexes are dropping millions of trit. pyrite, nox. iso, etc. Somebody ratting for an hour should not be able to yield 10 times as much minerals as somebody mining for an hour. Period. This was done because EVE is a PVP combat centric game. The DEV's don't want to have their 0.0 alliances mining all day long, they want them building ships, outposts, etc. To fight with... Building the homestead
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.07.20 13:38:00 - [50] Originally by: DarkMatter Quote: 3. Gurista convoys and complexes are dropping millions of trit. pyrite, nox. iso, etc. Somebody ratting for an hour should not be able to yield 10 times as much minerals as somebody mining for an hour. Period. This was done because EVE is a PVP combat centric game. The DEV's don't want to have their 0.0 alliances mining all day long, they want them building ships, outposts, etc. To fight with... And yet mining even exists. ---

DarkMatter Sintered Sanity	Posted - 2007.07.20 13:49:00 - [51] Originally by: James Duar Originally by: DarkMatter Quote: 3. Gurista convoys and complexes are dropping millions of trit. pyrite, nox. iso, etc. Somebody ratting for an hour should not be able to yield 10 times as much minerals as somebody mining for an hour. Period. This was done because EVE is a PVP combat centric game. The DEV's don't want to have their 0.0 alliances mining all day long, they want them building ships, outposts, etc. To fight with... And yet mining even exists. Mining was extremely important when the game first launched. It still is important today, but it's not going to be a main source of income, especially in high sec... Building the homestead
Cipher7 OldBastardsPub SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.20 13:49:00 - [52] Mining sucks. You need gistii etc stuff to tank a Hulk in 0.0, I thought the whole point of driving a hulk was mining in 0.0? You need 3+ people to mine effectively in 0.0, a tank, a miner and a hauler. To rat you just need 1 person. Ratting pays as good or better, and the skills for ratting are transferable to pvp. Furthermore ratting is not beholden to the whims of the market. If the market for mega crashes, the rats don't go on strike.
Agent Li	Posted - 2007.07.20 13:56:00 - [53] Originally by: Santa Anna I want to know more about the gorilla tactics mentioned by the OP. I think he means a new type of ship, the Gorilla. ------------------ "Don't be afraid to take advantage of your enemy's weaknesses. Becasuse winning is everything after all."
DarkMatter Sintered Sanity	Posted - 2007.07.20 13:56:00 - [54] Originally by: Cipher7 Mining sucks. You need gistii etc stuff to tank a Hulk in 0.0, I thought the whole point of driving a hulk was mining in 0.0? You need 3+ people to mine effectively in 0.0, a tank, a miner and a hauler. To rat you just need 1 person. Ratting pays as good or better, and the skills for ratting are transferable to pvp. Furthermore ratting is not beholden to the whims of the market. If the market for mega crashes, the rats don't go on strike. I think CCP wants it this way. I don't like it either, mining/industry has been getting the short end of the content stick for 4 years now. But it's obvious the DEV's are fine with that... Building the homestead
Indigo Johnson Minmatar	Posted - 2007.07.20 14:00:00 - [55] Mining will be worth it when the belts are moved to the exploration system. Just have patience.
Scott Ryder	Posted - 2007.07.20 14:36:00 - [56] Hmmm well the sulution is to boost the hulk. Make it able to tank in 0.0 as it should :)
Dietes Marcellus	Posted - 2007.07.20 14:41:00 - [57] Edited by: Dietes Marcellus on 20/07/2007 14:43:27 The Hulk can tank in 0.0, Some passive resitences and a shield booster for the most part. You can mine solo in 0.0, its just a pain because rats come and you have to run, and you have to get your hauler or hauler alt (which i dont have) Edit:\|above\| any particular mineral market will never (crash). It may drop however due to a decrease in demand because people are leaving that particular region, or somebody is bringing in cheaper minerals from somewhere else. The only way the megacyte market (example) to crash is if a newer/better mineral came out that replaced megacyte int he manufacturing business. I don't think CCP plans to add any new minerals soon.
Dietes Marcellus	Posted - 2007.07.20 14:45:00 - [58] jesus everyone keeps bashing me on the "gorilla tactics" lol its just a way I use to describe my method of mining CALL IT WHAT YOU WANT IT!!!
Scott Ryder	Posted - 2007.07.20 14:54:00 - [59] You missed the point sir. The hulk is a ship who has dropped from 500 mil to 150 mil. Now its still expensive and its meant to handle 0.0 mining. Not 0.0 running. I can easly rat in harbringer fitted for 10 mil. Wich means 40 - 50 mil total. Oh and guess what. I can also mine in it. 0,0 without ever running. Then take a bs and give it a tank and can mine in 0.0. someone stealing your ore isnt your biggest problem. See my point here? a 120 mil battleship is better to 0.0 mine with then a hulk. Something IS wrong
Dietes Marcellus	Posted - 2007.07.20 15:05:00 - [60] Edited by: Dietes Marcellus on 20/07/2007 15:06:11 Yes I agree. NO ship, should be able to mine better than a Mining Barge/Hulk. I don't care how many T2 mining lasers are on a battleship, that ship is meant for battle i wouldn't throw two Cruise launchers on a retriever I was just stating that I have to run because I do not have a hulk OR a Battleship to mine in.



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