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Dietes Marcellus	Posted - 2007.07.18 20:34:00 - [1] Mining in EvE is not as profitable as it should be...every miner knows this. Specifics: 1. Takes too long for too little reward 2. 0.0 mining requires the use of gaurds which are usually uncompliant due to boredom. Unless tanking (high skills) or gorilla tactics (inefficient) are used, mining is rendered useless. 3. Gurista convoys and complexes are dropping millions of trit. pyrite, nox. iso, etc. Somebody ratting for an hour should not be able to yield 10 times as much minerals as somebody mining for an hour. Period. 4. A battleship fitted with T2 miners should not be able to yield even CLOSE to the amount that a MINING BARGE can. Solutions: 1. Make cycle times shorter 2. By makeing cycle times shorter, miners will have a higher yield, which in return will allow them to pay higher rates than that of a typica hours worth of ratting. This will make gaurding [somewhat] rational 3. Stop this 4. I don't have an answer due to the physics of the game. 8 T2 miners is 8 T2 miners. The only thing I can sudgest is having a penalty for using miners on non mining ships. Constructive Hypothesis - By making cycle times shorter, more miners will join the scene, which means a greater consumption of minerals, which will result in a deficit of resources. In return, miners will begin to stray away from systems with stations, and maybe more capitalists will venture out of empire..
Selena Dimeling Caldari	Posted - 2007.07.18 20:42:00 - [2] ... Are you familiar with the phrase: Non sequitur? While I agree, somewhat, that ratting should not have mineral rewards... Increasing yield per minute would increase the material floating around on the market, there by driving miner's profits even lower. Yeah, empire mining isn't as profitable as ratting or missioning. However, it opens up production, which can be more profitable with the right tools. 0.0 mining, like anything in 0.0, is much higher risk, and thusly less likely to be done for purely personal gain. ____________________ Skill Showroom
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.07.18 20:44:00 - [3] you increase the materials in game by 2 the prices drop in half ----------------------------------- I'm working my way through college target CCP
Bryce Bolz Gallente	Posted - 2007.07.18 20:45:00 - [4] TWO WORDS "MORE MACROERS" is the only thing that will result in this as will the isk will be cheaper to buy.
Splagada Minmatar Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.18 20:46:00 - [5] Edited by: Splagada on 18/07/2007 20:45:57 Minigin is really good enough ! ------
Dietes Marcellus	Posted - 2007.07.18 20:47:00 - [6] Edited by: Dietes Marcellus on 18/07/2007 20:46:44 Originally by: MotherMoon you increase the materials in game by 2 the prices drop in half I do not agree. There is always a constant demand for ships Miners will be able to make their money in volume
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.07.18 20:49:00 - [7] Originally by: Dietes Marcellus Edited by: Dietes Marcellus on 18/07/2007 20:46:44 Originally by: MotherMoon you increase the materials in game by 2 the prices drop in half I do not agree. There is always a constant demand for ships Miners will be able to make their money in volume also your talking like eve is one region. mining in 0.0 isn't just about the minerals. the prices of mineral are VERY different based on where in space you are. ----------------------------------- I'm working my way through college target CCP
Moon Kitten Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.07.18 20:49:00 - [8] It's pretty hard to make mining balanced because of the economy and the issue of people who use automated scripts.
Tarminic Black Flame Industries	Posted - 2007.07.18 20:50:00 - [9] Unfortunately mining in high-sec space can't be changed significantly due to the problem with macrominers, since they would be able to take advantage of any changes. I believe that CCP is planning on creating some kind of mining-related capital ship that may take care of some of the issues you've mentioned. I do agree that a Rokh should not be able to equal the output of a Hulk though. ------------ ULTIMATE LAG SOLUTION IBTL! IBDS/DC! IBTC! 1st in a BoB post! And other such forum tom-foolery.
Dietes Marcellus	Posted - 2007.07.18 20:53:00 - [10] Edited by: Dietes Marcellus on 18/07/2007 20:54:04 Originally by: MotherMoon also your talking like eve is one region. mining in 0.0 isn't just about the minerals. the prices of mineral are VERY different based on where in space you are. Exactly..currently Zydrine in a 0.0 system that I am in is signifacntly less than the price in a secure system 20 jumps south where it isn't available to mine. There will be more benefit for miners to go into lower security space Edit: I agree with you that the value of local minerals will decrease due to greater volume entering the market, at the same time it will make the rarer minerals more valuable.
Dietes Marcellus	Posted - 2007.07.18 21:09:00 - [11] Bah I tried :( hehe
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.07.18 21:12:00 - [12] Originally by: Dietes Marcellus Edited by: Dietes Marcellus on 18/07/2007 20:56:14 Edited by: Dietes Marcellus on 18/07/2007 20:54:04 Originally by: MotherMoon also your talking like eve is one region. mining in 0.0 isn't just about the minerals. the prices of mineral are VERY different based on where in space you are. Exactly..currently Zydrine in a 0.0 system that I am in is signifacntly less than the price in a secure system 20 jumps south where it isn't available to mine. There will be more benefit for miners to go into lower security space Edit: I agree with you that the value of local minerals will decrease due to greater volume entering the market, at the same time it will make the rarer minerals more valuable. edit: (sorry) not more valuable, rarer minerals are not as volitile so there will be a minor decrease in profit per unit, but will be compensated by the increased volume. so if we where to keep high sec the same and increase mineral amount in low sec would that fix it a bit maybe? also yeah thr rohk thing is bull**** but I question the math somehow. also I hope your not saying that all regions should have the same mineral prices, because of they did trading wouldn't make you money anymore. ----------------------------------- I'm working my way through college target CCP
Dietes Marcellus	Posted - 2007.07.18 21:29:00 - [13] What i'm saying is, a shorter cycle time will surley increase the amount of minerals in the market place which in return, naturally, will drive the unit price down BUT because of the placement of minerals throughout the EvE universe, this will a balance the mineral market a bit. Lets take a 1.0 system in empire for example. Basic minerals will decrease in demand because supply is higher which will result in lower prices. YES. However, this only applies to those basic minerals. The minerals in 0.0 are so rare that they're prices are very high. Again, increasing yield amount will flood more rare minerals into the marketplace causing the unit price to fall However, the change in price for rare minerals in porpotion to the volume brought in will not be much as basic minerals because the population mining rarer minerals is less than people mining basic minerals in empire. It will have a more balancing effect, and maybe more incentive to go after the rarer minerals. Just a thought
Lady Natacha Minmatar Water and Power	Posted - 2007.07.18 21:35:00 - [14] I am not certain, and this is pure speculation on my part, but the new named ore and ice mining upgrades recently added may have a twofold intent since they increase yield and/or decrease cycle times. 1) Increased mining yield will increase profitability for miners NOW and reduce their "grind" a little. More ore per cycle is more cash, less work, and this encourages miners to come back to their trade. 2) Legitimate miners lured back to mining again will LATER help fill in the gap that will be left for minerals as the noose slowly closes on the isk-sellers and the farmers that feed them. If CCP can get isk farming/selling for rl cash down to a trickle (which it seems is starting to work), someone has to mine the mats. Less farmers saturating the market will cause prices to rise (miners profit) and increased yield helps the real miners to fill the void left behind by the farmers. Summary: By increasing the yield with the new mining upgrades, CCP may both encourage more mining and at the same time this will later help to offset the gap that will be caused as it becomes harder to farm to sell isk for cash. Like I said, pure speculation, but this seems plausible to me. It all hinges on CCP getting farming/selling isk under control. Given the low rl price for isk lately, their efforts may be working. Cats do play EVE. Where did you think player names like asdfghjj came from?
Lysit Kaune Minmatar Phoenix Division The Imperial Order	Posted - 2007.07.18 21:42:00 - [15] Originally by: Dietes Marcellus Unless tanking (high skills) With the exception of faction spawns, It won't take high skills to passively tank a drake to soak up 0.0 rats.
Lysit Kaune Minmatar Phoenix Division The Imperial Order	Posted - 2007.07.18 21:46:00 - [16] Originally by: Lady Natacha By increasing the yield with the new mining upgrades, CCP may both encourage more mining and at the same time this will later help to offset the gap that will be caused as it becomes harder to farm to sell isk for cash. Like I said, pure speculation, but this seems plausible to me. It all hinges on CCP getting farming/selling isk under control. Given the low rl price for isk lately, their efforts may be working. Yes, but then you have the same miners getting more minerals, for a short time miners make more money, more people move into mining at this increased mineral rate, more minerals flood market, mineral prices begin to drop as competition begins between sellers. Mining becomes less profitable, people leave mining profession. Things have a way of balancing themselves out, you'll simply end up with fewer miners than you had in the first place as a smaller amount of miners can now supply the market with th same amount of minerals.
Ninja Otaku	Posted - 2007.07.18 21:51:00 - [17] I disagree with the idea of raising the yield for miners in barges. I agree with the idea of LOWERING the yield for non-miner class ships. My biggest issue though is not so much of who can get the most, but the risk/reward factor with mining. You give me a story of a high sec mission runner in an NPC corp having to deal with real player pirates, and I'll give you a million isk. Miners have to deal with random rat spawns in belts. We have to deal with ore thieves and pirates in the like. Our ships, paper as they are, are at just as much risk as mission runner ships, but even in HIGH sec, we must deal with pirates. ALSO, mining in low sec / 00? Guards are needed. That guard could be out running missions, and making more money than the salary you would pay him, so you might as well stick to high sec because you loose more than you make due to paying your guards so you can mine. Not to mention there are over a dozen ways to attack a miner vs a mission runner. This is a known dispute for the longest time. I for one am leaving the mining game. I love my covetor, but the imbalance of risk for miners vs mission running is too irritating. I have members in my corp, younger than me, making MORE than me, because it is that imbalanced.
Gealbhan Caldari The SAS The Kano Organisation	Posted - 2007.07.18 21:57:00 - [18] I use a Hulk to mine Scordite en mass. I tried the Kernite thing, didn't make as much isk as Scordite, go figure. Yeah I get private convo'd a bit in game. I guess people see a hulk mining in 0.8 or above think "oh it must be a macro miner". Anyway, to the OP: I think mining is alright as it is. It takes me about 20 minutes to fill my Hulks 13,000m3 hold which makes me a million or a little over per run. Never did, never will jet can mine. Sure, I'm not the uber productive of miners but it suits me. I don't need buckets of isk to enjoy eve. "Concentrate all your fire on one target, when it is destroyed, move on to the next. That is how you secure victory". - Tactica Imperium.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.07.18 22:00:00 - [19] they should make the minerals in high sec have a 100 times increase to dorp rate. thus isk farmers won't make money off of high sec mining becasue it's pointless. j/k ok but changing stuff like this is delicate work, so the most we might get would be 5% bonus to cycle time on mining ships per lvl. but I think the new mining upgrades are basicly what your asking for. maybe? ----------------------------------- I'm working my way through college target CCP
Alatari Winterdawn	Posted - 2007.07.18 22:00:00 - [20] Originally by: Lysit Kaune It won't take high skills to passively tank a drake to soak up 0.0 rats. Have you tried mining in a Drake? You can't do that with a Planet.
Alora Venoda Caldari GalTech	Posted - 2007.07.18 22:18:00 - [21] okay, i can believe a battleship with 8x miner2 can come close to a covetor with T1 strip miners... but seriously, a HULK? add in T2 strip miners with crystals and there is no way. also, they did recently buff mining with the new named mining upgrades. they are very nice (and expensive). ~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~ Take away the risk and it would make flying around in space utterly pointless. Take away the flying around part and you make EVE into a space themed spreadsheet application.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.07.18 22:19:00 - [22] Originally by: Alora Venoda okay, i can believe a battleship with 8x miner2 can come close to a covetor with T1 strip miners... but seriously, a HULK? add in T2 strip miners with crystals and there is no way. also, they did recently buff mining with the new named mining upgrades. they are very nice (and expensive). with a rack of mining upgrades, the new ones rev 2, a rohk would outmine a hulk, which is why those modules currently are offline. ----------------------------------- I'm working my way through college target CCP
Derovius Vaden	Posted - 2007.07.18 22:30:00 - [23] Originally by: MotherMoon Originally by: Alora Venoda okay, i can believe a battleship with 8x miner2 can come close to a covetor with T1 strip miners... but seriously, a HULK? add in T2 strip miners with crystals and there is no way. also, they did recently buff mining with the new named mining upgrades. they are very nice (and expensive). with a rack of mining upgrades, the new ones rev 2, a rohk would outmine a hulk, which is why those modules currently are offline. This has been stated, time and again, to be a broken setup. There were no penalties being calc'ed for the Rokh in question, and because of this, mining upgrades will not function until the bug is fixed.
Buyerr	Posted - 2007.07.18 22:35:00 - [24] no ratting and mining is around balance, 0.0 and everything that have with the "player determined" market, is totally of balance.. the problem is that the only thing that is balanced is that which is controlled by mechanics. so my point, make everything on market a npc controlled so it cost around 2 or 3 times the base price so the price isn't so extremely unbalanced.
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings	Posted - 2007.07.18 22:46:00 - [25] Long lost brother? Nah, his mother would be off the scale ugly for this to be possible. Also Known As
Ninja Otaku	Posted - 2007.07.18 23:14:00 - [26] It's not so much the profit yields that bug me, but the risk/reward issue. Belts are warp to, all missioning spots are safespot equivilent. In low sec, hell, any sec, you have to deal with pirates and the like as a miner, while mission runners only worry about pirates in low sec. Explain to me how this is balanced.
Vyyrus Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.18 23:18:00 - [27] Edited by: Vyyrus on 18/07/2007 23:18:33 The problem is ore. Ore shouldn't be rare on 0.0 since 0.0 is the hardest place to get access in. Their should be all the highest counts of ark.bistot.mercoxit in every region. Not just one region has bistot one region has crokite and one region has arkonor. If all the ores would be spread out evenly, would make mining much more fun rich environment in 0.0. Also, I have yet to come across an arkonor roid in 0.0 =[.
Ninja Otaku	Posted - 2007.07.18 23:26:00 - [28] Edited by: Ninja Otaku on 18/07/2007 23:28:27 Originally by: Vyyrus Edited by: Vyyrus on 18/07/2007 23:18:33 The problem is ore. Ore shouldn't be rare on 0.0 since 0.0 is the hardest place to get access in. Their should be all the highest counts of ark.bistot.mercoxit in every region. Not just one region has bistot one region has crokite and one region has arkonor. If all the ores would be spread out evenly, would make mining much more fun rich environment in 0.0. Also, I have yet to come across an arkonor roid in 0.0 =[. I disagree entirely. Ore is VERY balanced and well placed. Yields and risk for the kind of ore you obtain is pretty dead on. I just argue that there is an imbalance between the risk/reward factor between money making in the eve universe. For something so long to train to get good at, compared to the same time spent training fighting skills is inbalanced. Training fighting type skills opens doors just as much as mining does. Sure we get R&D and Production, but what we have to go through to access the minerals needed to make R&D and Production lucrative is ludicris. Edit grammer and wording
Roemy Schneider BINFORD	Posted - 2007.07.18 23:28:00 - [29] nownow... mining, astrogeology and mining upgrades apply to both barges and mining BS. mining upgrades even more with BS. so this great extra "SP investment" for exhumers IV is roughly a month - and yields >50% more. and such a mining BS is far from tanking each and every null-sec spawn contrary to a specialized hulk. mining upgrades are being looked at so hold your horses for now -
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.07.18 23:41:00 - [30] Originally by: Alora Venoda okay, i can believe a battleship with 8x miner2 can come close to a covetor with T1 strip miners... but seriously, a HULK? add in T2 strip miners with crystals and there is no way. also, they did recently buff mining with the new named mining upgrades. they are very nice (and expensive). And a rokh can put 3 normal mining upgrades. As the new upgrades require less CPU it can add even more upgrades, while a Covetor or a Hulk have 2 low slots. Whou you think will gain the most?

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