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Zarvo Grey
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Posted - 2007.07.18 20:41:00 -
[1]
Being Gallente I am ofcourse training drones and one type in particular caught my interest, Sentry drones. Problem is, I cant find any real information about thier usefulness or how they act.
What I want to know is do they react like normal drones or like the sentry drones you see in missions? Could I , for example, set some up at a location on guard and expect them to attack anything that enters the area or will they only attack something Im being attacked by.
If they can be set to guard will they attack any pilot or can they be used to attack, say, only someone with bad standing twords me.
I've tried searching for this information but cant find it so hopefuly someone here can lend a hand.
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MrBramme
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.07.18 20:53:00 -
[2]
i've found them extremely usefull. they don't quite operate te way you think they do though. you launch them like regular drones and then they are stationary in space (like true sentry guns), next you lock a target and select "engage enemy" in the drone bit of the overview like you do with normal drones ... basically they act the same only with more power and they're stationary. they can't hit frigs up close though, they're good with a long range setup.
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Tamoko
Damage Unlimited Inc
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Posted - 2007.07.18 20:57:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Tamoko on 18/07/2007 20:56:53
Don't get into the trap of thinking sentry drones are an upgrade to heavy drones. It's like comparing oranges to apples. Heavy drones will put out the highest sub-capital drone damage, however sentry drones are capable of reaching their full damage potential almost instantly (without flight time).
This can make them range from useful to just plain comical in a variety of pvp and pve situations.
As for giving them orders, this works precisely like every other drone. You're limited to "attack target" and I believe a "hold fire" type order. But to the best of my knowledge, they wont act out of their own volition. You must be present in the grid and command them to attack your target.
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Kruel
Blunt Force Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.07.18 21:30:00 -
[4]
They're useful in a Domi/Ishtar, especially for missions. Pop stuff further out with sentries, and when they get closer, pull in the sentries and let the regular drones out.
I also popped a few ships in my Domi back in the day who weren't expecting it. Someone sees a Domi and automatically assumes it's not a threat beyond nos/scram range.
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Tamoko
Damage Unlimited Inc
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Posted - 2007.07.18 21:36:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Kruel
...
I also popped a few ships in my Domi back in the day who weren't expecting it. Someone sees a Domi and automatically assumes it's not a threat beyond nos/scram range.
Exactly the situation I got put in  Thought I would outrun a domi's ogres... He surprised me by pulling them back and dropping 5 gardes, quickly shooting me down into armor.
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Saaitar
Gallente
Garoun Investment Bank
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Posted - 2007.07.18 21:42:00 -
[6]
Yeah...Sentries are really cool if you know how to use them. Sometimes, when the mission starts I am able to kill 50% or more of the spawn until they realise that someone is shooting at them (maybe it was just a mission bug although it happened a few times). I use wardens because their range and nice damage type and training up to Sentry Drone Interfacing V to use sentries II. The only disadvantage of sentries is the fact that you have to be stationary to use them - you cant run and shoot simultaneously. But with appropriate equipment (like omnidirecitonal tracking computers and drone link augmentors) you are able to kill a spawn from distanece of 110 or more.
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Benn Helmsman
Caldari
Helmsman Engineering Company
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Posted - 2007.07.18 23:42:00 -
[7]
In my eyes, sentries should have a range of like 40km.. now, they are just a built-in caldari sniper ship in a gallente dronebay...
Another reason, why flying caldari ships becomes pointless...
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Comdrinker
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Posted - 2007.07.19 00:07:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Saaitar
Yeah...Sentries are really cool if you know how to use them. Sometimes, when the mission starts I am able to kill 50% or more of the spawn until they realise that someone is shooting at them (maybe it was just a mission bug although it happened a few times). I use wardens because their range and nice damage type and training up to Sentry Drone Interfacing V to use sentries II. The only disadvantage of sentries is the fact that you have to be stationary to use them - you cant run and shoot simultaneously. But with appropriate equipment (like omnidirecitonal tracking computers and drone link augmentors) you are able to kill a spawn from distanece of 110 or more.
so once you launch them, you can't fly off to another position and just leave them there? and by another position, like 20km off.
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Sachi Ichigo
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Posted - 2007.07.19 00:16:00 -
[9]
Yes you can.. :) as long as you stay inside your drone control range.. so that'll be something like 50-60km (with scout drone lvl 5), without any drone mods i believe....
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Mr Krosis
The humble Crew
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.19 00:17:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Comdrinker
so once you launch them, you can't fly off to another position and just leave them there? and by another position, like 20km off.
You can move once you launch them, and keep shooting. It's the drones themselves that can't move and sit where ever you dropped them. You have to return to your drones to scoop them back up, and you can't launch new ones while they are out. So if you want to be able to scoop/redeploy them easily, you pretty much have to stay still.
-- Mr Krosis
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge. |
Zenst
Gallente
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.07.19 00:38:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Benn Helmsman
In my eyes, sentries should have a range of like 40km.. now, they are just a built-in caldari sniper ship in a gallente dronebay...
Another reason, why flying caldari ships becomes pointless...
i've hit plenty of frigates 100km+ with sentries - all about the ones you use and drone mods.
As said before you can always pull them in and deploy other drones, at least in some ships :).
You can also prestage there setup so they are spaced out if your doing a gate camp and have time to kill ;0.
They can also take a few smartbomb hits as you clear lesser drones of yourself before you have to scoop them.
Also they engage soon as instead of having to fly into range, again another factor in calculating damage.
There also the only drones that have any form of damag mod with regars to rigs afaik. not sure on implants but I doubt it.
Generaly for the skilling over T2 drones they do have an edge if you fit up and use them right. I even use them and I only have l4 in them and have all drone spec's at l4 and all the dmg ones at l5. Heck even used them in fleet ops, they have there uses there.
For NPC type stuff again can dump out at range - very tasty, though I highly reccomend 1 tracking module and 1 or 2 (maybe 3) range modules. You also have rigs which on a dom is not a major problem CPU hit wise, though l4 is reccomended of course. Though I'd probably go explosive, armour boost amour per repair and cap on rigs myself.
But by all means try these things out on the test server, can also kick skill of and see if that elusive l5 skill means you can make that perfect fit before training on the live server. Also see if that elusive fit is worth all that time, something most planners and spreadsheets cant tell you.
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Benn Helmsman
Caldari
Helmsman Engineering Company
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Posted - 2007.07.19 01:05:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Zenst
Originally by: Benn Helmsman
In my eyes, sentries should have a range of like 40km.. now, they are just a built-in caldari sniper ship in a gallente dronebay...
Another reason, why flying caldari ships becomes pointless...
i've hit plenty of frigates 100km+ with sentries - all about the ones you use and drone mods.
As said before you can always pull them in and deploy other drones, at least in some ships :).
You can also prestage there setup so they are spaced out if your doing a gate camp and have time to kill ;0.
They can also take a few smartbomb hits as you clear lesser drones of yourself before you have to scoop them.
Also they engage soon as instead of having to fly into range, again another factor in calculating damage.
There also the only drones that have any form of damag mod with regars to rigs afaik. not sure on implants but I doubt it.
Generaly for the skilling over T2 drones they do have an edge if you fit up and use them right. I even use them and I only have l4 in them and have all drone spec's at l4 and all the dmg ones at l5. Heck even used them in fleet ops, they have there uses there.
For NPC type stuff again can dump out at range - very tasty, though I highly reccomend 1 tracking module and 1 or 2 (maybe 3) range modules. You also have rigs which on a dom is not a major problem CPU hit wise, though l4 is reccomended of course. Though I'd probably go explosive, armour boost amour per repair and cap on rigs myself.
But by all means try these things out on the test server, can also kick skill of and see if that elusive l5 skill means you can make that perfect fit before training on the live server. Also see if that elusive fit is worth all that time, something most planners and spreadsheets cant tell you.
I can imagine, thats why the omnidirectional tracking link and the drone scope rig need to be stacking nerfed, to prevent outsniping long range ships with sentries.
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Santa Anna
Caldari
Blackguard Brigade
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Posted - 2007.07.19 01:14:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Benn Helmsman
I can imagine, thats why the omnidirectional tracking link and the drone scope rig need to be stacking nerfed, to prevent outsniping long range ships with sentries.
You can't get better than mid-range with sentries. 4x Omnidirectional tracking links only doubles the range (roughly) which isn't out to sniper ranges. A domi can't lock that far out, either, so you either need to fit sensor boosters or move away from your sentries, leaving you vulnerable.
Drone mods are fine. Drone specialists should be able to do something outside of 50km if they set their ship up for it.
_____
Heat Warfare |
Benn Helmsman
Caldari
Helmsman Engineering Company
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Posted - 2007.07.19 01:23:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Santa Anna
Originally by: Benn Helmsman
I can imagine, thats why the omnidirectional tracking link and the drone scope rig need to be stacking nerfed, to prevent outsniping long range ships with sentries.
You can't get better than mid-range with sentries. 4x Omnidirectional tracking links only doubles the range (roughly) which isn't out to sniper ranges. A domi can't lock that far out, either, so you either need to fit sensor boosters or move away from your sentries, leaving you vulnerable.
Drone mods are fine. Drone specialists should be able to do something outside of 50km if they set their ship up for it.
Hitting at 100km+ dealing 300dps with rigs isnt really a big problem. But it is a problem ;]
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Santa Anna
Caldari
Blackguard Brigade
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Posted - 2007.07.19 01:43:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Benn Helmsman
Hitting at 100km+ dealing 300dps with rigs isnt really a big problem. But it is a problem ;]
A fully skilled torp raven does full damage out to what? 150km? Cruises go out to 240 or so? Drones hitting at 120 or so on a dedicated ship doesn't pose a balance problem. It's not like that nos domi can turn around and snipe at 100+, just like a gank neutron mega can't snipe from 200kms but if you refit it you can. If omnidirectional tracking links get a stacking nerf they should get a pre-stack boost as well.
_____
Heat Warfare |
Benn Helmsman
Caldari
Helmsman Engineering Company
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Posted - 2007.07.19 01:49:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Santa Anna
Originally by: Benn Helmsman
Hitting at 100km+ dealing 300dps with rigs isnt really a big problem. But it is a problem ;]
A fully skilled torp raven does full damage out to what? 150km? Cruises go out to 240 or so? Drones hitting at 120 or so on a dedicated ship doesn't pose a balance problem. It's not like that nos domi can turn around and snipe at 100+, just like a gank neutron mega can't snipe from 200kms but if you refit it you can. If omnidirectional tracking links get a stacking nerf they should get a pre-stack boost as well.
It takes half a minute for torps to reach 120km (forgot the precise number but i think thats around the max range for them without rigs). And here comes a detail to think about: You can put this on an Ishtar (even a Vexor can deal a lot of damage with 3 of them at extrem ranges).
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Zenst
Gallente
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.07.19 01:56:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Benn Helmsman
Originally by: Zenst
Originally by: Benn Helmsman
In my eyes, sentries should have a range of like 40km.. now, they are just a built-in caldari sniper ship in a gallente dronebay...
Another reason, why flying caldari ships becomes pointless...
i've hit plenty of frigates 100km+ with sentries - all about the ones you use and drone mods.
As said before you can always pull them in and deploy other drones, at least in some ships :).
You can also prestage there setup so they are spaced out if your doing a gate camp and have time to kill ;0.
They can also take a few smartbomb hits as you clear lesser drones of yourself before you have to scoop them.
Also they engage soon as instead of having to fly into range, again another factor in calculating damage.
There also the only drones that have any form of damag mod with regars to rigs afaik. not sure on implants but I doubt it.
Generaly for the skilling over T2 drones they do have an edge if you fit up and use them right. I even use them and I only have l4 in them and have all drone spec's at l4 and all the dmg ones at l5. Heck even used them in fleet ops, they have there uses there.
For NPC type stuff again can dump out at range - very tasty, though I highly reccomend 1 tracking module and 1 or 2 (maybe 3) range modules. You also have rigs which on a dom is not a major problem CPU hit wise, though l4 is reccomended of course. Though I'd probably go explosive, armour boost amour per repair and cap on rigs myself.
But by all means try these things out on the test server, can also kick skill of and see if that elusive l5 skill means you can make that perfect fit before training on the live server. Also see if that elusive fit is worth all that time, something most planners and spreadsheets cant tell you.
I can imagine, thats why the omnidirectional tracking link and the drone scope rig need to be stacking nerfed, to prevent outsniping long range ships with sentries.
LOL, no; At least not until:
Missile launchersTurrets can be shot like drones
Armour tank gets fitting and cap reduction skills like sheild
You can target and shoot missiles.
Then, and only then will you have an argument in this thread.
Bottom line I totaly disagree with what you said, which is too all effect is realy a argument you are useing too compensate your skills with. That and if you feel so strongly start a topic on it instead of parisiting others. Though remember they are T1 modules and drones were talking about here so be prepared to feel the rath of Goonswarm
--
Every strength has its weakness, its only the weak that dont see it.
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Benn Helmsman
Caldari
Helmsman Engineering Company
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Posted - 2007.07.19 02:01:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Zenst
LOL, no; At least not until:
Missile launchersTurrets can be shot like drones
Armour tank gets fitting and cap reduction skills like sheild
You can target and shoot missiles.
Then, and only then will you have an argument in this thread.
Bottom line I totaly disagree with what you said, which is too all effect is realy a argument you are useing too compensate your skills with. That and if you feel so strongly start a topic on it instead of parisiting others. Though remember they are T1 modules and drones were talking about here so be prepared to feel the rath of Goonswarm
--
Every strength has its weakness, its only the weak that dont see it.
Oh plz... since they are ubertough and the scoop/relaunch trick works with them so nice, you can pretty much forget to shoot them... and even if you manage to shoot one, ishtar and domi have so much spare... You get a very high damage at very high range, without having to care for cap or ammo.
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Santa Anna
Caldari
Blackguard Brigade
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Posted - 2007.07.19 02:09:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Santa Anna on 19/07/2007 02:13:18
Originally by: Benn Helmsman
It takes half a minute for torps to reach 120km (forgot the precise number but i think thats around the max range for them without rigs). And here comes a detail to think about: You can put this on an Ishtar (even a Vexor can deal a lot of damage with 3 of them at extrem ranges).
I've played around a lot with the math on these. You can snipe at cruiser sniper ranges if you use all your mid slots. Of course you're sniping with a BS-sized signature resolution and (if sniping) you're going to have mobility issues not normally experienced by other snipers. Most drone ships also have targeting range issues, potentially forcing you set up away from your drones and lose them if you have to do the whole tactical retreat thing.
You can do some interesting things with sentries, but as they are they are far from unbalanced and don't need nerfing.
Edit -- also, sentry drones simply don't operate at extreme ranges. They operate at frig/cruiser long range or BS mid range.
_____
Heat Warfare |
Zenst
Gallente
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.07.19 02:20:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Benn Helmsman
Originally by: Zenst
LOL, no; At least not until:
Missile launchersTurrets can be shot like drones
Armour tank gets fitting and cap reduction skills like sheild
You can target and shoot missiles.
Then, and only then will you have an argument in this thread.
Bottom line I totaly disagree with what you said, which is too all effect is realy a argument you are useing too compensate your skills with. That and if you feel so strongly start a topic on it instead of parisiting others. Though remember they are T1 modules and drones were talking about here so be prepared to feel the rath of Goonswarm
--
Every strength has its weakness, its only the weak that dont see it.
Oh plz... since they are ubertough and the scoop/relaunch trick works with them so nice, you can pretty much forget to shoot them... and even if you manage to shoot one, ishtar and domi have so much spare... You get a very high damage at very high range, without having to care for cap or ammo.
You realy dont get it do you. You are of course assuming the drones are in scoop range and your not moving and also your assuming that drones are not ammo. Now please take your lack of combat experience (not assumed clearly) to your own thread and cry nerf there. Its fairly safe to assuem the thread starter cares not for caldari input into sentry drones as he's not caldari and wants to use them. Not that it has any bearing what race you are and what ships you fly.
One day you will look back on this and realise your mistakes instead of making them.
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Santa Anna
Caldari
Blackguard Brigade
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Posted - 2007.07.19 02:54:00 -
[21]
My alt with current skills (Drone interfacing 4, sentry drones 3, drone sharpshooting 4) in a vexor (Gal Cruiser 3) can get an optimal of 82.9 km with bouncer's (no rigs). With falloff, he'd hit 50% of the time at 117 or so.
Currently, he can target out to 55km in his vexor. That's just not going to work.
However, he could cut an omnidirectional tracking link and add a sensor booster. This would bring his range down to about 70km + falloff, where he could target.
Now, from 70 km he could do 3x1.8x1.15x1.3x1.4x50 damage every 4 seconds, for 141 dps against a very large stationary target. That's not bad, but plenty of cruisers do as well from that range with considerably more mobility and flexibility. With max skills and t2 sentries you're looking at around 230 dps from that range.
You can rig the vexor to do a bit more damage, but you'll likely run into cpu issues with the rest of your fit.
The myrm can be an interesting sniper (390 w/max skilled bouncer 2's) but it has a targeting range problem too.
_____
Heat Warfare |
Benn Helmsman
Caldari
Helmsman Engineering Company
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Posted - 2007.07.19 02:59:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Benn Helmsman on 19/07/2007 02:59:23
Originally by: Santa Anna
My alt with current skills (Drone interfacing 4, sentry drones 3, drone sharpshooting 4) in a vexor (Gal Cruiser 3) can get an optimal of 82.9 km with bouncer's (no rigs). With falloff, he'd hit 50% of the time at 117 or so.
Currently, he can target out to 55km in his vexor. That's just not going to work.
However, he could cut an omnidirectional tracking link and add a sensor booster. This would bring his range down to about 70km + falloff, where he could target.
Now, from 70 km he could do 3x1.8x1.15x1.3x1.4x50 damage every 4 seconds, for 141 dps against a very large stationary target. That's not bad, but plenty of cruisers do as well from that range with considerably more mobility and flexibility. With max skills and t2 sentries you're looking at around 230 dps from that range.
You can rig the vexor to do a bit more damage, but you'll likely run into cpu issues with the rest of your fit.
The myrm can be an interesting sniper (390 w/max skilled bouncer 2's) but it has a targeting range problem too.
230 dps at 70km, thats a pretty impressive damage for a t1 cruiser. I dont know any other cruiser that can put that amount of damage in this distance.
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Santa Anna
Caldari
Blackguard Brigade
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Posted - 2007.07.19 03:10:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Benn Helmsman
230 dps at 70km, thats a pretty impressive damage for a t1 cruiser. I dont know any other cruiser that can put that amount of damage in this distance.
I'll run some numbers, but with max skills I doubt you'd have trouble doing that in a rupture or caracal, and maybe even an omen or something. You may even be able to snipe at that distance with a thorax.
_____
Heat Warfare |
Benn Helmsman
Caldari
Helmsman Engineering Company
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Posted - 2007.07.19 04:26:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Santa Anna
Edited by: Santa Anna on 19/07/2007 04:16:34
Originally by: Benn Helmsman
230 dps at 70km, thats a pretty impressive damage for a t1 cruiser. I dont know any other cruiser that can put that amount of damage in this distance.
I'll run some numbers, but with max skills I doubt you'd have trouble doing that in a rupture or caracal, and maybe even an omen or something. You may even be able to snipe at that distance with a thorax.
Edit: with max skills, caracal can hit for 280 dps out to 126 kms, or thereabouts. You can get more if you go for fancy bcu's or have implants. (That's with dread gurista scourge)
Edit2: with max skills, rupture should be able to get 246 out to around 70 (just entering falloff with tremor m). This one may require fitting rigs (boo). (edit 3: A warden 2 ups this to about 290.)
Edit 3: Thorax with 250 t2's and 2 warden 2's should be able to do 250 or so DPS at 70 kms. This is also a tight fit.
Edit 4: Omen can get 160 on guns at 70 km with a free high slot. If you can wedge a heavy launcher on there you could maybe 190.
All these damage numbers are againt 0% resistance right?
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Santa Anna
Caldari
Blackguard Brigade
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Posted - 2007.07.19 04:29:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Benn Helmsman
All these damage numbers are againt 0% resistance right?
Yes.
The bouncers are arguably the best, as they have respectable range, the second highest dmg mod, and do explosive damage.
Gardes are short range with the highest damage modifier, and do thermal.
Wardens are the longest range with the third highest damage mod and do kinetic.
Curators are amarr drones.
_____
Heat Warfare |
Benn Helmsman
Caldari
Helmsman Engineering Company
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Posted - 2007.07.19 04:42:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Santa Anna
Curators are amarr drones.
That was pretty much my thought as well ^^.
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Xorlev
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Posted - 2007.07.19 05:50:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Santa Anna
Curators are amarr drones.
I love how that explains it all. 
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Santa Anna
Caldari
Blackguard Brigade
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Posted - 2007.07.19 06:17:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Benn Helmsman
Edit:
Caracal: I would do the calculation with CN ammo, its only a bit less powerfull, but still. With 1 t2 sensor boost you can lock 115km max. Since damage is bound to kinetic, it will deal a lot less damage overall compared to explosive damage.
Why? You're talking about cruiser-sized snipers. There's no reason to assume that explosive will be better than kinetic across all hitpoints to make his a valid gripe.
Quote:
Another disadvantage, to hit at this ranges you have to wait 10+ seconds. I have to admit, because of its small explosion radius, it can hit better on small targets.
Caracal can also move at will, changing ranges, and has 3 free mid slots to use as ewar or tank. (after sensor booster and ab/mwd)
Quote:
Another problem, your tank will be very weak because of the fitting requirements of the t2 launcher.
All of these ship fits have weak tanks. They're sniper fit.
Quote:
Its the only cruiser that can come even close to the damage the Vexor deals.
The rupture and arbitrator do a better job, but have range and mobility issues similar to the vexor.
Quote:
Rupture: Very bad locking range, with 1 t2 sensor booster 90km range. 200dps with 1 GS in my calculation, with 45dps comming from the bouncer (on structure).
I used 2x gyrostab, 2x bcu. Max skill heavies go about 85 without the caracal bonus.
Quote:
Thorax: 140 dps from 5 250 t2 rails with spike +1 mfs, adding 90 dps from bouncer you get 210 dps
I used 2x MFS. Also, at the range in question the Thorax has to use wardens to be within optimal.
Quote:
Omen: 138 dps from 4 t2 heavy beam +1 HS, needs tracking computer to hit at 70km.
My omen setup had 2x tracking comp, 1x tracking enhancer, 2x mfs, and 2 free lows for fitting mods (it'd need them). The Omen doesn't make a very good sniper, but it looks better than the Maller in terms of DPS. I added a launcher as well in my calcs.
Quote:
Moa: 4 250mm rails with spike +2 mfs, 2 hml with cn missile +1bcu, 180 dps (tho its pretty hard to fit that at all.
I had 2x bcu on the Moa and it'd need an ACR for the launchers/extender.
_____
Heat Warfare |
Benn Helmsman
Caldari
Helmsman Engineering Company
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Posted - 2007.07.19 06:50:00 -
[29]
AB wont help much, and if you fit an MWD, you cant fit any tank at all, because you dont have the PG to fit either a shield extender, nor do you have the CPU to fit booster+hardener.
Originally by: Santa Anna
Quote:
Another problem, your tank will be very weak because of the fitting requirements of the t2 launcher.
All of these ship fits have weak tanks. They're sniper fit.
Try a sentry gun vexor, it has 3-4 slots left with plenty of fitting.
AS with all the other ships, you fitted them with absolutly no tank at all, it seems they will die to even smallest amounts of damage.
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Santa Anna
Caldari
Blackguard Brigade
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Posted - 2007.07.19 07:38:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Benn Helmsman
AB wont help much, and if you fit an MWD, you cant fit any tank at all, because you dont have the PG to fit either a shield extender, nor do you have the CPU to fit booster+hardener.
The AB lets you dictate range and maintain higher transverse velocity. You have a decisive range advantage over these setups in a caracal and you don't have to worry about tracking. Snipers, both sentry and turret, do.
Also, not sure if you used t2 launchers. In my fantasy max skill setup I used faction, which should leave cpu room for tank or ewar and mwd, though cap with mwd on a caracal is a huge issue.
Quote:
Originally by: Santa Anna
Quote:
Another problem, your tank will be very weak because of the fitting requirements of the t2 launcher.
All of these ship fits have weak tanks. They're sniper fit.
Try a sentry gun vexor, it has 3-4 slots left with plenty of fitting.
AS with all the other ships, you fitted them with absolutly no tank at all, it seems they will die to even smallest amounts of damage.
The low damage output vexor (236 with max skills) had a tank, but the max damage one did not.
These are sniper ships (and cruisers at that). In theory, they warp out when called secondary. When you're in a sniper gang, you generally buffer tank, warping off when primaried to remote rep or run your undersized repper and to get yourself de-primaried.
If you are in a sniper gang in a cruiser, you want to keep moving because the battleship guns will have trouble tracking you at your preferred range. The guys trying to snipe in drone ships will stick out, be stationary, and will be quickly popped. You can't put a big enough plate on any of these setups (save maybe the low-damage vexor/arbitrator) to make a difference. Thus, no tank.
You may be able to get a workable fit on a domi for long-ish range, but sentries are not going to displace the sub-BS snipers because they don't have enough range to mix in with the BS snipers (and thus not get primaried or hammered by support) and they require their user to be stationary or lose his ability to deploy/control drones, something that dedicated drone boats won't want to do.
If you want to stacking nerf the omnidirectional tracking link then that's okay, so long as you allow me to reach those same mid-ranges where the damage from a sentry drone boat remains competitive with the damage provided by other setups.
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Heat Warfare |
Santa Anna
Caldari
Blackguard Brigade
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Posted - 2007.07.19 07:44:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Kirtan Loor
Sadly this is the case.
I've recently tried putting 7 OD tracking links on a lachesis putting a curator in bay and trying to hit a jettisoned can from 100k
in theory a curator with 7 non stacking nerfed OD tracking links should have about 120k optimal. If there is a stacking nerf however, the optimal drops down to 65k. The fall off is 10k in both cases
After shooting at the jet can for 5 minutes I haven't even scored a single hit on the canister.
I know canisters have small sig, but I'd expect a single hit in 5 minutes. No hits at all means:
They ARE stacking nerfed :(
It was too good to be true if they were not stacking nerfed. With correct setup domi +rigs+bouncerII's could get 430dps with 160k optimal 35k falloff and 177k locking range.
Did you bug-report it?
The patch notes a couple patches ago said all rigs and modules that had a stacking nerf applied had had their descriptions updated accordingly. If something is stacking nerfed without the description indicating this to be the case, it's a bug.
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Heat Warfare |
Kirtan Loor
Divine Retribution
|
Posted - 2007.07.19 08:00:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Santa Anna
Did you bug-report it?
The patch notes a couple patches ago said all rigs and modules that had a stacking nerf applied had had their descriptions updated accordingly. If something is stacking nerfed without the description indicating this to be the case, it's a bug.
You sir, just have given me hope :)
I'll try it again against an ordinary target. If that's the case I'll bug report it faster than a overheated crow pilot on boosters |
Santa Anna
Caldari
Blackguard Brigade
|
Posted - 2007.07.19 08:10:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Kirtan Loor
Originally by: Santa Anna
Did you bug-report it?
The patch notes a couple patches ago said all rigs and modules that had a stacking nerf applied had had their descriptions updated accordingly. If something is stacking nerfed without the description indicating this to be the case, it's a bug.
You sir, just have given me hope :)
I'll try it again against an ordinary target. If that's the case I'll bug report it faster than a overheated crow pilot on boosters
The bug may be with the description rather than the mod, sadly.
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Heat Warfare |
Benn Helmsman
Caldari
Helmsman Engineering Company
|
Posted - 2007.07.19 08:25:00 -
[34]
Vexor: 4 T2 200mm rails, 1 T2 sensor boost, 2 omnidirectional tracking links, 1 t2 MAR, 1 T2 EANM, 1 T2 DC, 1 PDS, 3 Bouncer: 320 dps up to 60 km, 240 dps up to 72km optimal + 35km falloff
only an average tank and its cap isnt that nice.. but well its BAMM
just in case it has been overlooked due to edit ^^
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Captain Crimson
United Mining Corporation
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Posted - 2007.07.19 08:32:00 -
[35]
Benn, we don't want another 'reduce drone bay size' thread.
T2 sentry drones do more damage than heavies apparently.... can someone check this?
Originally by: Tuxford
I have already expressed my personal opinion on this and it was very positive (something about happy in the pants).
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Benn Helmsman
Caldari
Helmsman Engineering Company
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Posted - 2007.07.19 08:40:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Captain Crimson
Benn, we don't want another 'reduce drone bay size' thread.
T2 sentry drones do more damage than heavies apparently.... can someone check this?
Its more a put "stacking nerf on drone range, so it doesnt give gallente droneboats a built-in sniping function"-comment.
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Santa Anna
Caldari
Blackguard Brigade
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Posted - 2007.07.19 09:12:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Captain Crimson
Benn, we don't want another 'reduce drone bay size' thread.
T2 sentry drones do more damage than heavies apparently.... can someone check this?
T2 heavies fire every 2 seconds for 24 damage but receive the bonus from the spec skill (so an extra 1.08 or 1.1 multiple to the damage mod). T2 sentries fire every 4 seconds for 50 damage but do not receive the spec bonus. If you can use ogre 2's, they should do at least 3% more damage than the sentries.
The sentries have a better alpha, but a worse sig res. They also have a bigger sig radius and are slower. (harhar)
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Heat Warfare |
Kirtan Loor
Divine Retribution
|
Posted - 2007.07.19 10:56:00 -
[38]
t2 curators and t2 bouncers outdamage their heavy conterparts.
t2 wardens are nearly %30 outdps'ed by t2 wasps, but have the best range.
t2 gardes are slightly out dps'ed by t2 heavies.
...and final touch is: sentries have damage rigs heavies dont.
So..with correct setup it is possible to reach high numbers on paper. But drone sniping is a dangerous business. You have to stay with your drones if you don't want to lose them. This can be done by either standing still, or orbitting your drones at 500m. On both cases you'll be not aligned for instawarping away.
Current state of Drone UI is also very prohibiting. The lag slow down your response time with drones. you have to lock a target, select your drones outside wait for the menu to open and click engage. There is no f1->f8 in this case. Deploying them causes additional lag and wait.
In short drone sniping is a nice dream for the present state of the game. |
Isan Danderoda
Strix Armaments and Defence
Acheron Federation
|
Posted - 2007.07.19 11:47:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Kirtan Loor
So..with correct setup it is possible to reach high numbers on paper. But drone sniping is a dangerous business. You have to stay with your drones if you don't want to lose them. This can be done by either standing still, or orbitting your drones at 500m. On both cases you'll be not aligned for instawarping away.
Current state of Drone UI is also very prohibiting. The lag slow down your response time with drones. you have to lock a target, select your drones outside wait for the menu to open and click engage. There is no f1->f8 in this case. Deploying them causes additional lag and wait.
In short drone sniping is a nice dream for the present state of the game.
I agree that drone sniping isn't all that in terms of PvP or in a dedicated ship, but it does give the ability to fit a ship with a vastly different range than usually expected and that is very nice. It is good to be able to switch things up when your enemy is far more skilled than you and can switch up entire ships to compensate for the weaknesses in your usual setup. I don't see myself soloing other BSes with it, but in gang combat it can definitely be useful.
But I must say, sentries shine the most in PvE. First, they do a fine job of knocking down the number of enemies before they get in range. I love them for killing jammers before they get in range. Plus there's an added bonus you don't hear about too often: since they don't fly out to range, they don't draw aggro from nearby groups. For me that's worth the price of admission. Now I can poke at a group with my aggro pulling gun (just a small), launch the sentries, mow through what I can, and once it becomes ineffective, I pull them in and switch to the right ones for what's left. This way the enemies have usually come in close enough that I don't have to worry about my regular drones waking up everyone else. Plus the damage mitigation from knocking out enemies on the way in makes my tank work MUCH better. :)
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Santa Anna
Caldari
Blackguard Brigade
|
Posted - 2007.07.19 12:05:00 -
[40]
One of the good things about sentries in pvp is, if you space them out (so you have a prepared position, or can live long enough to set one up), you'll make it very hard to speed tank against you. Gardes in (say) a 20km radius ring around a gate and an omnidirecitonal tracking link or two in your ship should make it very hard to maintain a high enough transverse against all the sentries all the time, allowing some number of clean hits and eventually running the speed ship away.
(note -- I haven't played around with them much in pvp at this point as my drone-heavy char started as a hardcore industrial pilot and doesn't have all of the necessary toys for pvp just yet.)
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Heat Warfare |
Cleric JohnPreston
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Posted - 2007.07.19 14:56:00 -
[41]
let me tell you what happen to my main 2 days ago.
My mate was blobbed in a belt in his tempest with 8 ships, some bs, Bc and af and ceptors. he tanked the lot of 4 mins before i came in.
I warped in with my Domi, dropped the garde sentries at 40km and hit the primary target with a target painter. I then flew away from my drones leaving them to fight as i was aligned becasue i simply didnt expect my mate to last much longer. In the end, my garde ate his tank badly, it was soo close he had to warp out at 21% structure but not after the entire gang began firing on my sentrys to kill them.
Of course the main primary was the only ship to have a scramble point on and once he warped my mate warped out. Then an AF tackled me, so i scrammed him, 3 heavy nos on him and told what was left of my sentries to kill the vengence in 3 hits.
then warped. Dude, sentries are my fav drone with out a doubt.
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Benn Helmsman
Caldari
Helmsman Engineering Company
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Posted - 2007.07.19 17:13:00 -
[42]
Yes they are can be used in a lot situations, they have high range, high damage (every senry guns is pretty much like a 425mm T2 Rail with 2-3 MFS), dont need any grid/cap and they even keep firing enemies when got dampend or jammed (just need a lock for a very short time).
I dont have much of a problem with that, just the possibility to make them usefull at ranges which are supposed to be for specialists should be reduced by stacking nerf the mods/rigs.
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Hinty
|
Posted - 2007.07.19 18:30:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Benn Helmsman
Originally by: Captain Crimson
Benn, we don't want another 'reduce drone bay size' thread.
T2 sentry drones do more damage than heavies apparently.... can someone check this?
Its more a put "stacking nerf on drone range, so it doesnt give gallente droneboats a built-in sniping function"-comment.
For those who fight with Lasers there is an option to fight at long ranges.
For those who fight with Projectiles there is an option to fight at long ranges.
For those who fight with Hybrids there is an option to fight at long ranges.
For those who fight with Missiles there is an option to fight at long ranges.
For those who fight with Drones there is curently an option to fight at long ranges.
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Santa Anna
Caldari
Blackguard Brigade
|
Posted - 2007.07.19 20:43:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Benn Helmsman
Yes they are can be used in a lot situations, they have high range, high damage (every senry guns is pretty much like a 425mm T2 Rail with 2-3 MFS), dont need any grid/cap and they even keep firing enemies when got dampend or jammed (just need a lock for a very short time).
I dont have much of a problem with that, just the possibility to make them usefull at ranges which are supposed to be for specialists should be reduced by stacking nerf the mods/rigs.
Why are you opposed to long range drone specialists?
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Heat Warfare |
Benn Helmsman
Caldari
Helmsman Engineering Company
|
Posted - 2007.07.19 20:50:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Benn Helmsman on 19/07/2007 20:49:28
Originally by: Santa Anna
Originally by: Benn Helmsman
Yes they are can be used in a lot situations, they have high range, high damage (every senry guns is pretty much like a 425mm T2 Rail with 2-3 MFS), dont need any grid/cap and they even keep firing enemies when got dampend or jammed (just need a lock for a very short time).
I dont have much of a problem with that, just the possibility to make them usefull at ranges which are supposed to be for specialists should be reduced by stacking nerf the mods/rigs.
Why are you opposed to long range drone specialists?
Because it takes away even more usefullness of caldari, gallente are PVP kings, they always point at caldari beeing good in PVE if you ask for a caldari pvp buff. But now they are at least as good as caldari with their sentry domis. Everyone cries about that there should be diversification in EVE, but more and more, gallente ships become the jackofallstreets... The have best close combat, best drones, best sniper, ... there has to be a moment where gallente shouldnt be the answer to all problems.
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Santa Anna
Caldari
Blackguard Brigade
|
Posted - 2007.07.19 21:04:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Benn Helmsman
Edited by: Benn Helmsman on 19/07/2007 20:49:28
Originally by: Santa Anna
Originally by: Benn Helmsman
Yes they are can be used in a lot situations, they have high range, high damage (every senry guns is pretty much like a 425mm T2 Rail with 2-3 MFS), dont need any grid/cap and they even keep firing enemies when got dampend or jammed (just need a lock for a very short time).
I dont have much of a problem with that, just the possibility to make them usefull at ranges which are supposed to be for specialists should be reduced by stacking nerf the mods/rigs.
Why are you opposed to long range drone specialists?
Because it takes away even more usefullness of caldari, gallente are PVP kings, they always point at caldari beeing good in PVE if you ask for a caldari pvp buff. But now they are at least as good as caldari with their sentry domis. Everyone cries about that there should be diversification in EVE, but more and more, gallente ships become the jackofallstreets... The have best close combat, best drones, best sniper, ... there has to be a moment where gallente shouldnt be the answer to all problems.
Gallente are the kings of afk pve and have been for as long as I've played the game. Their tanks permarun and their drones don't require any user intervention to use. I'm grinding up standings with minmatar with a gallente alt and he has to do something other than warp in and deploy drones in maybe 20% of missions.
As for best sniper, the Mega will outrange the sniper domi with or without stacking penalties on the omnidirectional tracking comps. Sentry drones require significant specialization to be practical outside of cruiser sniping ranges. Just because the same ship can be good at long range and short range (mega, geddon, tempest) doesn't mean that the same user can be good at both without refitting imbetween. A hypothetical sniper domi would be a very poor short range drone boat if he used more than 1 drone tracking mod/rig.
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Heat Warfare |
Benn Helmsman
Caldari
Helmsman Engineering Company
|
Posted - 2007.07.19 21:12:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Santa Anna
A hypothetical sniper domi would be a very poor short range drone boat if he used more than 1 drone tracking mod/rig.
I cant follow you in this point, you might not have much tackle on your boat, but you still can deploy heavy drones and nos without any problems.
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Santa Anna
Caldari
Blackguard Brigade
|
Posted - 2007.07.19 22:33:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Benn Helmsman
Originally by: Santa Anna
A hypothetical sniper domi would be a very poor short range drone boat if he used more than 1 drone tracking mod/rig.
I cant follow you in this point, you might not have much tackle on your boat, but you still can deploy heavy drones and nos without any problems.
Nos domi without MWD/web/scram isn't a very good pvp ship. Nos domis are very strong 1v1. When you get to 2v2 against competent pilots in similar ships, Nos domis start to have problems because focus fire can beat any tank. If you don't fit a point, you're in a gang (probably at least a medium one) and there are many ships better than a nos domi. If you don't fit a web your target will web you and get to the gate/out of nos range if he has mwd and injector too. If you don't fit mwd you'll have a lot of trouble getting into range to use your nos.
If you're sniping, you're also probably using a buffer tank rather than an active tank. If you plan on staying stationary rather than aligning, you'll need istabs in the lows, too. An effective sniper specialist domi would be very different from a Nos domi.
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CPU Love |
Shiken Kan
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Posted - 2007.07.19 22:50:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Shiken Kan on 19/07/2007 22:51:39
the maximum range you can get with sentries is 200km controlrange with 186km optimal (warden 2) and 213km targeting range.
that works only with a domi and you need maxed skills and you loose all hi and mid and rigslots to do so. (so no omg they got a damage rig)
all in all that is a very specialized ship and not worth a penny in close combat as you simply can't ab/mwd nos or really tank for long. it also won't deal more damage then a rokh for example and thus there's absolutely no point in complaining, especially as such a ship is rather skill intensive.
as to the op 
sentries are great for controlling aggro when you normally couldn't tank the rats. they easily can tank 1 bs and when attacked by more you have an instant full shield reg by scooping them. problem is when the rats get too close they don't hit anything, so you need some other drones or mebbe rails in the his to deal with frigs or drones. target signature on the other hand isn't a problem, i instapopped some 20ish small ratdrones from about 50km with wardens.
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Zenst
Gallente
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.07.19 23:10:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Kirtan Loor
Originally by: Benn Helmsman
I can imagine, thats why the omnidirectional tracking link and the drone scope rig need to be stacking nerfed, to prevent outsniping long range ships with sentries.
Sadly this is the case.
I've recently tried putting 7 OD tracking links on a lachesis putting a curator in bay and trying to hit a jettisoned can from 100k
in theory a curator with 7 non stacking nerfed OD tracking links should have about 120k optimal. If there is a stacking nerf however, the optimal drops down to 65k. The fall off is 10k in both cases
After shooting at the jet can for 5 minutes I haven't even scored a single hit on the canister.
I know canisters have small sig, but I'd expect a single hit in 5 minutes. No hits at all means:
They ARE stacking nerfed :(
It was too good to be true if they were not stacking nerfed. With correct setup domi +rigs+bouncerII's could get 430dps with 160k optimal 35k falloff and 177k locking range.
try dropping a tracking link for a painter, you will have better luck, and i mean luck :)
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Benn Helmsman
Caldari
Helmsman Engineering Company
|
Posted - 2007.07.20 00:50:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Zenst
Originally by: Kirtan Loor
Originally by: Benn Helmsman
I can imagine, thats why the omnidirectional tracking link and the drone scope rig need to be stacking nerfed, to prevent outsniping long range ships with sentries.
Sadly this is the case.
I've recently tried putting 7 OD tracking links on a lachesis putting a curator in bay and trying to hit a jettisoned can from 100k
in theory a curator with 7 non stacking nerfed OD tracking links should have about 120k optimal. If there is a stacking nerf however, the optimal drops down to 65k. The fall off is 10k in both cases
After shooting at the jet can for 5 minutes I haven't even scored a single hit on the canister.
I know canisters have small sig, but I'd expect a single hit in 5 minutes. No hits at all means:
They ARE stacking nerfed :(
It was too good to be true if they were not stacking nerfed. With correct setup domi +rigs+bouncerII's could get 430dps with 160k optimal 35k falloff and 177k locking range.
try dropping a tracking link for a painter, you will have better luck, and i mean luck :)
Hm which radius do jet cans have? i always thought it would be 1km?
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