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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
ArmyOfMe
Exotic Dancers Club
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Posted - 2007.07.19 14:12:00 -
[31]
Got to be the most well written post ive seen, and all of the points was valid
I agree 100% with everything he said.
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An Anarchyyt
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2007.07.19 14:13:00 -
[32]
Edited by: An Anarchyyt on 19/07/2007 14:13:25
Originally by: Banana Torres
She closed the message and went back to choosing a new pair of Jimmy Choos, now that is important.
If you like third-rate designer stuff, of course.
More on the topic, every time I see a post like this, and then start seeing the ***s, my attention begins to fade very fast. I don't know if people know this, but your points seem a lot more valid when you don't phrase them like an angry kid throwing a temper-tantrum. Cursing does not making your posts seem any better.
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Kaylana Syi
The Nest
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Posted - 2007.07.19 14:15:00 -
[33]
I pretty much agree with everything Jade has to say. And I don't think its just the gamestyle of that individual or not.
This game has gotten a bit too far away from being the cost hearted sandbox it was in 2003/2004 and has turned into somewhat of a joke at the alliance level. While I agree with Jade I also am somewhat of a realist. Stations will never be destructable, there would be too many complaints to justify it.
What I would like to see is sovereignty taken from POS and allow the POS to become what it once was envisioned to be... a home in space. Sovereignty should be based on the outpost. If you deploy an egg... you get sovereignty when it turns into an outpost.
Make the station directly attackable from day one. However, before the attacker can capture it make it to where ALL the station services are offlined first. Also, make outposts only come with 1 basic service like medical from the construction. Lower the cost of outpost deployal to about 10 billion isk. Let it cost about 2 billion to configure a new service to add to it and base what service you can put on it via race, as it is now.
Also, why do we even have sovereignty tied to alliances? Alliances were made out of sheer need from the community. Why did CCP decide to tie things to that game mechanic and totally ignore megacorporations? You can't tell me 0utbreak or Celestial Apocalypse can't hang with the big alliances and they NEED to form 1 corp alliances to garner the benefits. It just doesn't make sense. Let Corporations tie into sovereignty too. After all, some CEO's are skilled in EVE to have many, many members more so than many alliances have including alts.
Tradegoods. Release BPOs for the ones for POS fuel. If we can't make our own pos fuel than what is the point? All it does is make metagaming a required feature for most alliances. You don't actually think people use their mains to go to empire to buy trade goods do you? Freighter alts move goods to lowsec and then they jump them out in carriers. Atleast the smart ones do. Freighters can hold A LOT of trade goods and so can 6-7 expander II + cargo rig dreads. Why not let us use the isk we make in 0.0 to buy minerals in 0.0 to make our 0.0 POS fuel in 0.0 in the stations we put up in 0.0?
All this POS spam and massive infrastructure to protect outposts is just perpetuating a necrosis gameplay style. Their is a massive lack of balance against the feudal system 0.0 we have come to know. Superpowers can fight over regions they can't really live in, take them from lower powers who don't want to be slaves, and then they 'rent' it because they can't be arsed to live there or pay the bills.
I say that is a foundational broken mechanic. You can take it but you can't keep it? Boo I say. There has to be more balance against this mentality. I think the start up cost for outposts is rediculous to be honest. I've helped build outposts, and take them. I know the costs, the true costs. 51% moon coverage which usually is 5+ towers + 25bil for the actual outpost. This can run well above 30 billion + time of the gamers involved who happen to need a billion isk ship to move the egg into position.
Can you see why people can find renters? And can you see why powers that can take down 5+ towers ( which sometimes is 50+ towers especially in the 'Great War' ) don't want to live there? Pos fuel. They want to rent to someone willing to pay a fraction of the original cost of the outpost but willing to do the upkeep on the POS. Sometimes at no cost monthly... sometimes with a monthly cost.
The game mechanics make this most neccessary. What can CCP do to balance it. Its a downward spiral and you have to account for people as economic resources in EVE economics. As an MMO company... you have to see that we play this game based on opportunity cost. Am I better off playing EVE less or not at all over spending time with friends or family... when everything that we can do is futile when our card is pulled?
Team Minmatar
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Banana Torres
The Green Banana Corporation
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Posted - 2007.07.19 14:22:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Arvo Henderson
Originally by: Prisoner 9818783
Insert Here Some Random Blather
Stop trolling. Rebate the arguments in the original post using your brains, instead of lighting up the flares to get the choppers, A-10s, AC-130s and other stuff to kill those arguments.
There is nothing to rebuke (I think you mean). You either think that 0.0 should be a place where stable, defendable empires can be built. And accept that for this to happen then the owners of the space will have to put in a lot of effort into logistics to keep the space theirs. And any attacker is going to have to spend a lot of time and effort and a similar logistics effort to take over the space. (which seems to be CCP's and Paris' view)
Or you think that 0.0 should be more like an FPS deathmatch arena. Where having a good fight is the most important thing. Like low sec without the sec hit.
Because, unlike what the OP beleives, if your assets are not safe you won't put them at risk. 0.0 will go back fighting over the NPC stations, which while it is fun, doesn't have any depth to it.
Personally, I long ago left 0.0 cause it was becoming not what I wanted to do. I don't like to the way that the game is going. But at the same time I can understand why it is going this way.
Virtual communities seem to be the next big thing on the net. And you can't have them if you are constantly worrried that an aggresive force can wipe away your work of many months in a few days.
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Mnengli Noiliffe
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Posted - 2007.07.19 14:30:00 -
[35]
well maybe ccp might want to borrow some other mmo's ideas .. if you don't want time sinks and 23/7 camping, do it like certain other mmo did - make solar system's sov work like Lineage 2 castles where you arrange the date of siege, sign up all interested parties until some defined deadline. at the defined date and time you have a huge fleet battle where where only registered parties can participate, but everybody dies to lag anyway and the randomness decide the outcome.
well either that or leave it as is because there is no other, 3rd way. or is there?
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Kaylana Syi
The Nest
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Posted - 2007.07.19 14:34:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Banana Torres
Virtual communities seem to be the next big thing on the net. And you can't have them if you are constantly worrried that an aggresive force can wipe away your work of many months in a few days.
That is all fine and dandy... but it is the poor mechanics of sovereignty that put the pressure on these castles in the sky. Their should be a balance where the game mechanics adapt to the players as much as the players adapt to the game mechanics. That is where you will find happy gamers even in loss. When the players adapt to the game mechanics and the mechanics get steeper and steeper and the stakes get higher and higher... you have what we have now.
There is no little guy anymore. There is no justification that the developers can bold faced say 'there is x amount more empty systems go find one.' PVP and power is circulating toward blobs and superpowers. It perpetuates the superpowers. Rent or die are the only options people in decent space have. Or go to a crap hole like the new regions and wait for CCP to fix the area then enter into the cycle once people catch on money is to be made there.
In short... the mechanics need to adapt... I think you can see we are done adapting and that we are pwning the mechanics.
Team Minmatar
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Sacul
Wreckless Abandon Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.07.19 14:35:00 -
[37]
"Now I understand where CCP are coming from. I think they have romanticized the whole business of giant fleets and POS sieges and capital ships getting bigger and bigger with massive booms and weaponry"
Spot on! The basic development idea is being looked at through pink glasses. Sov 4 will make it near impossible to evict a enemy from outposts and that makes me sad.
The stone age didn't end because we ran out of stones!
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Victor Valka
Caldari Archon Industries
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Posted - 2007.07.19 14:36:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Banana Torres Virtual communities seem to be the next big thing on the net. And you can't have them if you are constantly worrried that an aggresive force can wipe away your work of many months in a few days.
What's the point of a tedious virtual life that's more like a job? Do you think that in it's current incarnation POS warfare is any bit fun for either side?
If yes, I doubt your sanity.
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The Cosmopolite
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.07.19 14:37:00 -
[39]
Originally by: CCP Greyscale We were discussing this yesterday, actually. It's a great summary of how things look from that particular viewpoint/playstyle.
Worth pointing out that this viewpoint/playstyle is not automatically inimcable to player infrastructure, advanced industry, empire-building and all the rest per se.
What is troubling to many of us is the static and indeed stasis-inducing nature of some aspects of player infrastructure in EVE at the moment.
Where is the mobile infrastructure?
Where are the research ships creating new designs for profit and destruction?
Where are the factory ships belching out flights of combat vessels close to or even behind enemy lines?
Where, dare we say it, are the refinery ships leaping into enemy territory to ravage their resources before making a quick getaway?
Why are Titans simply big combat vessels with a totemic aspect and a bit of logistics thrown in but precious little else? They should be mobile stations and I honestly think that's what CCP intended them to be, with the reality and pressure for the things appearing at all curtailing that vision.
Let there be empires, by all means, but these empires are having it all their own way while opportunities to challenge them, without yourself being a 0.0 Satrap are lagging behind.
Cosmo
The Star Fraction Communications Portal |
Kaylana Syi
The Nest
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Posted - 2007.07.19 14:41:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Mnengli Noiliffe well maybe ccp might want to borrow some other mmo's ideas .. if you don't want time sinks and 23/7 camping, do it like certain other mmo did - make solar system's sov work like Lineage 2 castles where you arrange the date of siege, sign up all interested parties until some defined deadline. at the defined date and time you have a huge fleet battle where where only registered parties can participate, but everybody dies to lag anyway and the randomness decide the outcome.
well either that or leave it as is because there is no other, 3rd way. or is there?
That would suck.
Yes there is a third way.
Change the sovereignty system itself. Take POS out of the picture. Make an outpost have the potential to have about 6-7 deatstars worth of services to plunder through then adjust the outpost to be about 5 more deathstars worth. Also, outpost sentries to defend, let them be similar to the POS guns and be player controlled.
You won't stop blobs. Ever. No matter how many anti blob objectives you put up you will never stop it from being easier IF you do it with a blob. The players will never give up easy mode. So you have to meet them half way. Make the entry cost to 0.0 castles in the sky less cumbersome and expensive. Its pretty much the only way I see it if you want to get more people out there willing to enter into potential loss.
If not, the members you are going to see coming to 0.0 are going to be farmers and casual gamers looking for a differnt change of pace from missioning in the future. Thats already pretty bad... it will only get worse.
Team Minmatar
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.07.19 14:41:00 -
[41]
Originally by: The Cosmopolite
Where, dare we say it, are the refinery ships leaping into enemy territory to ravage their resources before making a quick getaway?
I got quite excited when mobile refineries were first announced back in 2003.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori. |
Victor Valka
Caldari Archon Industries
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Posted - 2007.07.19 14:44:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Originally by: The Cosmopolite
Where, dare we say it, are the refinery ships leaping into enemy territory to ravage their resources before making a quick getaway?
I got quite excited when mobile refineries were first announced back in 2003.
I hope you've learned something since that.
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Tarminic
Black Flame Industries
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Posted - 2007.07.19 14:46:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Banana Torres Virtual communities seem to be the next big thing on the net. And you can't have them if you are constantly worrried that an aggresive force can wipe away your work of many months in a few days.
Not true at all! The threat of attack can, in itself, forge a community out of a normally dissociated group of players. I agree with the majority of what the OP said. Outposts need to have a method by which they can be destroyed, and POSs need to be - somehow - reduced or removed from sovereignty claiming. ------------ ULTIMATE LAG SOLUTION IBTL! IBDS/DC! IBTC! 1st in a BoB post! And other such forum tom-foolery. |
Fakespace
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Posted - 2007.07.19 14:47:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Jon Asus
Darth Vader "Deploy another large POS at the forest moon governor Tarken, with sovereignty this fully armed battlestation is now INVULNERABLE to the enemies guns muahahaahahhahaha muhahhaahha!"
Luke "awww ****, thats another two weeks hauling ice of us"
Originally by: Jon Asus Molle needs to be logging into his teamspeak to the sound of a thousand carebears crying out in pain as the goonswarm obliterate another outpost and watching a thousand mining barges tumbling and burning in the Querious sky.
I'm one of those carebears that would be crying out in pain to Molle... and i couldnt agree more! The fact that most of 0.0 is safer then most low-sec areas is just sad (sorry to say, but a few gank-gangs of Goons or IAC's now and then doesnt realy make it unsafe).
Originally by: Jon Asus
After a war on this scale 0.0 should be a ******* wasteland of burning ships, stations and broken dreams. A conflict like this should be epic - exciting - brutal - I want to be reading about CEO's losing their entire corp's wealth to their headquarters getting nuked by onetime allies deciding to deny the territory to an advancing enemy
Even as a builder/carebare i couldnt agree more... i might loose all my assets, but think of the opporunities!!! The market swings in mineral prices, the contract opportunities, the ship sales... i almost drools just thinking of this!
Instead space stays stable for months at time. Instead of reading abouth people loosing everyting in epic wars, were forced to read about a corp (that shal remain un-named:) losing some ships to some thief...
bah i tells ye, aye, BAH...
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Banana Torres
The Green Banana Corporation
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Posted - 2007.07.19 14:47:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Victor Valka
Originally by: Banana Torres Virtual communities seem to be the next big thing on the net. And you can't have them if you are constantly worrried that an aggresive force can wipe away your work of many months in a few days.
What's the point of a tedious virtual life that's more like a job? Do you think that in it's current incarnation POS warfare is any bit fun for either side?
If yes, I doubt your sanity.
I don't know what drives people to play this game, but for some people the goal of having your name attached to a bit of space makes the tedium and lack of fun worth the hassle.
Are these people insane? I dunno, it seems a strange way to spend your free time, very anal, but most likely not insane.
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Vasiliyan
Federation Fleet Endless Horizon
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Posted - 2007.07.19 14:51:00 -
[46]
There's a lot of people bored with EVE. When even Dark Shikari is one of them, then something is really wrong.
I've done a lot of stuff there is to do in EVE. I have somewhat limited time to play these days; increasingly this means the "endgame" is closed off to me if I don't have time for hours of POS sieging, or hours of gatecamping, or hours of exploration probing, or hours of L5 mission running, or hours of organising people to do those things (yes, organisation really does take ages, people underestimate that).
I'm bored. So I've cancelled my account. It runs out at the end of the week. No, you can't have my stuff; I might come back from time to time.
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Victor Valka
Caldari Archon Industries
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Posted - 2007.07.19 14:55:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Banana Torres
Originally by: Victor Valka
Originally by: Banana Torres Virtual communities seem to be the next big thing on the net. And you can't have them if you are constantly worrried that an aggresive force can wipe away your work of many months in a few days.
What's the point of a tedious virtual life that's more like a job? Do you think that in it's current incarnation POS warfare is any bit fun for either side?
If yes, I doubt your sanity.
I don't know what drives people to play this game, but for some people the goal of having your name attached to a bit of space makes the tedium and lack of fun worth the hassle.
Are these people insane? I dunno, it seems a strange way to spend your free time, very anal, but most likely not insane.
I can understand that. It's A-OK and very EVE to want to create something.
Then there are people who want their names attached to great acts of destruction and wholesale slaughter. I can understand that too. It also is very EVE. What is un-EVE is the fact that the current situation denies these people their time in spotlight.
The building of the first outpost made headlines and rightfully so.
I wish the same for the first destruction of an outpost. Alas, it is but a dream.
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barvo
7th Space Cavalry
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Posted - 2007.07.19 15:05:00 -
[48]
Edited by: barvo on 19/07/2007 15:11:59
Originally by: The Cosmopolite
What is troubling to many of us is the static and indeed stasis-inducing nature of some aspects of player infrastructure in EVE at the moment.
Where is the mobile infrastructure?
*snipped out examples to save space*
Now, I would completely buy into that.
This is a really interesting discussion, and I (as a 16-month relative noob) am enjoying reading the responses.
To me, the whole thing is a balance; the more you make outposts and things destructible, the less people will live in 0.0, or the worse the market will be because people don't want to risk their assets getting blown up in the outposts. Operations would be based from lowsec NPC stations because you couldn't rely on being able to access all your fleet ships if you missed someone sieging your outpost.
But are any of these things bad? I'm not sure.
I would certainly like to see POS used for much more strategic means. Chains of pos that mine various materials that a corp sells on as completed components. A home for small corps in the wilderness of 0.0, not an MFI "Sovereignty Flat-pack" that gets mass-produced, wheeled out and assembled when everyone cares, and then gets left to rot because so many have been deployed that nobody could manage the logistics of fuelling and timing them. Oh, don't even get me started about the micro-management of stront timing.
The whole deathstar-spamming thing makes me shudder to be honest, I'm training capitals because I know I will be an asset to my corp if I do, but I'm not looking forward to my first 12-hour-straight POS sieging session. I'm really hoping CCP changes the mechanics before I get the honour of doing it, to be quite honest.
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Keta Min
Armoured Assassins
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Posted - 2007.07.19 15:17:00 -
[49]
jade for eve game designer plz!
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Naruto Hunter
Maza Nostra oooh Shiny
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Posted - 2007.07.19 15:21:00 -
[50]
That was a nicely written post, in the aspect of introducing a new idea (station destruction). Since possession is an important part of Eve, I find myself agreeing that it would be fair is something like that could happen.
Concerning the part as to were the game is going, I do not find it such a bad thing. It is an option that you may choose to follow, or not. I agree with DS that starbase warfare is a bigger timesink nowadays, but it is not everyone has to do, just those that are interested in it.
There are all kinds of people playing this game and CCP is doing a fine job in providing a lot of diverse aspects (not successfully all the time) and leaving the choice as to what to do to each player. That doesn't mean that everyone should or can do everything in the game. You dont want to have to deal with logistic crap? Don't. I dont mind doing it, but at a larger scale you need people of same thinking. In my corp (and the alliance I am in), setting up a POS will probably get you kicked laughing. We tried it, didnt like it and rejected it.
I know we are missing a part of the game, but with such a huge playground, you dont need to do everything, just the stuff you like. As with rl, if you need something bigger or more complex, you have to try harder. We are just content that we run the occasional roaming gang and have fun.
just my 1.78 eurocent
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Leviathani Darkri
Fatalix Inc.
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Posted - 2007.07.19 15:22:00 -
[51]
Signed in agreement with the op.
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Red Desire
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Posted - 2007.07.19 15:24:00 -
[52]
Good post, I like it, even though he exaggerates some parts. What 0.0 needs it's some kind of group activities which makes lots of ISK and on which you are vulnerable, not like the pathetic complexes idea. Nothing should be invulnerable, but still it would be extremely sucky to lose you station,POS etc while you are asleep, or that your wife freacking divorced you or you lost your job , because those damn jobless easterners keep attacking you during the night or work hours.
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Quebnaric Deile
Fabulous Soulcatchers Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium
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Posted - 2007.07.19 15:25:00 -
[53]
Long read, but worth it, excellent points and I agree completely. It is a giant game of CTF that has no end. Not being able to destroy outposts ... come on now. __ Fabulous Soulcatchers are recruiting.
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Mastin Dragonfly
Absolutely No Return The Red Skull
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Posted - 2007.07.19 15:26:00 -
[54]
I don't do the 0.0 thing, all the things about the wars I read on these boards, desync, lag, metagaming, etc, makes me want to stay far, far away from it. And I love the idea of big spaceship fleetbattles, but it sounds like it isn't working. I read the whole OP thing, I got an image of WWI trenchwarfare: gain a mile, loose a mile, no progress, no point.
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RossP Zoyka
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Posted - 2007.07.19 15:26:00 -
[55]
So the gist here is to lower POS and deployed structure hitpoints?
I say go for it. I also say make POS way more valuable in terms of available services and production abilities.
Just lower the dang hitpoints and all of a sudden people are able to kill the stinking things.
Make them way more valuable (in terms of services and logistic capabilities rendered) and all of a sudden people are still willing to invest in them.
Yippee Ky Yay mother*******
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ArmyOfMe
Exotic Dancers Club
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Posted - 2007.07.19 15:27:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Red Desire . What 0.0 needs it's some kind of group activities which makes lots of ISK
ah yes, eve really needs even more isk
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Lobo13
Aliastra
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Posted - 2007.07.19 15:34:00 -
[57]
Read and signed.
Good post.
My sig is under contruction. If you look closely you can see the little men working on it. |
Brox alDragoran
Caldari The Establishment Establishment
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Posted - 2007.07.19 15:41:00 -
[58]
Amazing post, 100% agree.
Making outpost indestructable is totaly wrong on soo many levels.
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Sean Dillon
Caldari Naughty 40
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Posted - 2007.07.19 15:47:00 -
[59]
I agree add a destruct option to stations. In killing an outpost you could make a huge profit. Everything that was inside all of sudden is floating around in space waiting to be picked up the alliance freithers.
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Nicho Void
Gallente Hyper-Nova
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Posted - 2007.07.19 15:53:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Jon Asus After a war on this scale 0.0 should be a ******* wasteland of burning ships, stations and broken dreams. A conflict like this should be epic - exciting - brutal - I want to be reading about CEO's losing their entire corp's wealth to their headquarters getting nuked by onetime allies deciding to deny the territory to an advancing enemy.
We should be seeing isk squandered and lost on a VAST scale and everyone involved in this brutal bitter slugfest should be fighting to the limit of their endurance and winning and losing in beautiful moments of critical tension that leave tumbled wrecks of player stations as legacies in their wake.
But instead - well you know it, everyone knows it. We've got a delayed action version of the original station ping-pong with less excitement, less pvp, more lag, more boredom and the virtual equivalent of 1000 mmorg gamers watching their blank screens and idly clicking the mouse like so many little orc peons endlessly carrying ore from the coalface in warcraft.
I got chills while reading the first two paragraphs...only to be slapped in the face by the ice cold reality of paragraph three.
100% agree with the OP. Best post I have read on the Eve forums. ---------------
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