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New Blog, Porkbelly on the Stackless Python Upgrade

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 3 post(s)
SonOTassadar The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc. Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.07.23 19:33:00 - [31] Originally by: CCP kieron I had to take the blog down over the weekend, as it had been published prematurely. The blog has been completed and re-published with more information. Enjoy! Originally by: porkbelly However, the Python programmer will however benefit from some brand new cool features in 2.5 that weren't present in the old version, including: While you were at it, you should have corrected his sentence structure. ----- Griffin -- 100,000 ISK ECM - Multispectral Jammer Is -- 20,000 ISK Standard Missile Launcher Is -- 10,000 ISK War target sobbing over losing a fight in his T2 fitted Battleship -- priceless

CCP kieron	Posted - 2007.07.23 19:47:00 - [32] Originally by: SonOTassadar Originally by: porkbelly However, the Python programmer will however benefit from some brand new cool features in 2.5 that weren't present in the old version, including: While you were at it, you should have corrected his sentence structure. I added in the extra "however" when reviewing the blog for publishing. Thanks for pointing that out. kieron Director of Community Relations, EVE Online EVE Online, CCP Games Email/Netfang Look Ma, I'm in a Dev thread! Oh wait...

band0fdevs Gallente Band of Dev's	Posted - 2007.07.23 22:47:00 - [33] well as CCP is a big component and media PR source for stackless python community its in their interest to take on board CCP remember they flew the creator of the language to iceland to assist with one of the big patches in the past. CO sponsoring events etc. Good to see they find something they can work with.
Wrayeth Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.07.24 01:23:00 - [34] Originally by: CCP kieron I added in the extra "however" when reviewing the blog for publishing. Thanks for pointing that out. n00b -Wrayeth n00b Extraordinaire "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
Franconis Gallente	Posted - 2007.07.24 10:35:00 - [35] Go ccp! This is a change that looks promising, especially in the eyes of a programmer. Tech 2.5 software ftw! _________ Gallente FTW
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.24 11:05:00 - [36] So the real question is: of these manifold and undefined performance increases, will this have any effect on desyncing? --------
Nofonno Amarr Free Traders	Posted - 2007.07.24 13:23:00 - [37] Moving from one version of programming environment to another (be it only a "minor" version number change) poses multiple threats that stem in multiple factors... In normal words, it's helluva work (pardon my spelling) and programmers/migration managers know what I'm talking about. Unable to say right now, but I strongly hope that Singularity is already running the new Python base and is being rigorously tested by the new folks in the QA department. I have seen some summons for stress tests on Singularity, so I strongly hope it's for stress testing the new Python engine. Keep up the improvements! I keep my fingers crossed for you. Having said that, I do have some thoughtsÖ (Austin Powers): I do not intent do diminish or otherwise degrade all the hard work CCP has put into EVE-Online development, but how about getting some real iron and some real programming language? Nihil obstat
Andargor theWise Collateral Damage Unlimited Hammer Time.	Posted - 2007.07.24 15:05:00 - [38] Originally by: Al'Lan Mandragoran Originally by: Herio Mortis Originally by: Victor Valka Edited by: Victor Valka on 20/07/2007 19:57:23 AFAIK Stackless is used server-side, not client-side. EDIT: Furthermore, as any half-decent programmer will tell you, there is no One Language to Rule Them All. Stackless python is also used in the client. And you are correct, there is no one language to rule them all. (Except python, that is.) You got it almost right. There is no One language to rule them all, except Ruby. I think it is time for the Lords of COBOL to return... - Got grief? Revelations MySQL Database
Erichk Knaar Caldari Maelstrom Crew	Posted - 2007.07.25 02:01:00 - [39] Originally by: Nofonno I do not intent do diminish or otherwise degrade all the hard work CCP has put into EVE-Online development, but how about getting some real iron and some real programming language? Wait, you didn't just suggest they replace an interpreted language with an interpreted language written in Java? You did...
Nofonno Amarr Free Traders	Posted - 2007.07.25 07:26:00 - [40] Edited by: Nofonno on 25/07/2007 07:31:59 Edited by: Nofonno on 25/07/2007 07:31:33 Originally by: Erichk Knaar Wait, you didn't just suggest they replace an interpreted language with an interpreted language written in Java? You did... Yes, actually I did. There's nothing funny there... moving from one interpreted language to other interpreted language is 'no loss, no gain' situation, so the interpretishness (whew, what a word) is preserved. There's nothing wrong with interpreted languages. There's a study that shown that Java is actually faster than C++ in multiple scenarios. I've found that old link for the unbelievers. Portability is their main advantage (however, this does not yet apply to EVE), but I dare to say that interpreted languages are more feature-rich and their code is more manageable. Written in Java... Hm... Not true. When something uses Java VM (the p-code, the .class files format) it does not mean it has to be actually coded in Java programming language. See Wikipedia entry and read the first paragraph. I recall there was Bistro, a Smalltalk implementation that used Java VM for portability sake. As you surely know, in large projects you have to compromise between performance and manageability. I'm just trying to show another path EVE could have taken. There's a time in all long-term projects - and this holds even more true for software projects - when entropy does its thing and it's more economical to scrap the whole thing and build it anew with fresh technology. Where would Windows be were it not for Windows NT? (edited to supply links) Nihil obstat

Hugh Ruka Caldari Free Traders	Posted - 2007.07.25 07:41:00 - [41] And now that you have the MagicTM Python 2.5, please have a look on the client and code a proper one. Starting with proper threading and blocking code, ending with an UI that's actualy usable. I find it funny that the EVE client has the same problem as Windows. Network interrupts have the highest priority. Very funny ... (I still have nightmares about IE dloading at 700kbps and killing the system while Mozilla on the same machine manages 2800kbps without a hitch). Originally by: JP Beauregard The experience with Exodus playtesting has scarred me for life. Those were bug-reports, not feature requests, you numbskulls....
000Hunter000 Gallente Magners Marauders	Posted - 2007.07.25 11:20:00 - [42] So when can we expect the 'juicy performance boost' again? I think it's funny that the area around Aunia/Dodixie is now laggier then ever even though the number of people in said systems hasn't increased all that much over the last few weeks. But hey, must be client side i guess CCP, let us pay the online shop with Direct Debit!!! Magners is now recruiting, evemail me or Dagazbo ingame.
Nate D New Atlantis Tek Corporation The Nexus Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.25 16:21:00 - [43] When will we know the exact details of the performance boost? I'm very eager to find out. -Nate
Erichk Knaar Caldari Maelstrom Crew	Posted - 2007.07.25 17:20:00 - [44] Originally by: Nofonno Edited by: Nofonno on 25/07/2007 07:31:59 Edited by: Nofonno on 25/07/2007 07:31:33 Originally by: Erichk Knaar Wait, you didn't just suggest they replace an interpreted language with an interpreted language written in Java? You did... Yes, actually I did. There's nothing funny there... moving from one interpreted language to other interpreted language is 'no loss, no gain' situation, so the interpretishness (whew, what a word) is preserved. There's nothing wrong with interpreted languages. There's a study that shown that Java is actually faster than C++ in multiple scenarios. I've found that old link for the unbelievers. Portability is their main advantage (however, this does not yet apply to EVE), but I dare to say that interpreted languages are more feature-rich and their code is more manageable. Written in Java... Hm... Not true. When something uses Java VM (the p-code, the .class files format) it does not mean it has to be actually coded in Java programming language. See Wikipedia entry and read the first paragraph. I recall there was Bistro, a Smalltalk implementation that used Java VM for portability sake. As you surely know, in large projects you have to compromise between performance and manageability. I'm just trying to show another path EVE could have taken. There's a time in all long-term projects - and this holds even more true for software projects - when entropy does its thing and it's more economical to scrap the whole thing and build it anew with fresh technology. Where would Windows be were it not for Windows NT? (edited to supply links) Well, the current fortress implementation is actually written in Java (I compiled it from source last night). Having said that, I have a lot of respect for Suns engineering capabilities. I just happen to think Python is a perfectly adequate language for what is being attempted here. The overall maintainability of the Eve code base, I can't comment on, because I've never seen it. I don't think its really fair to blame the language for anything though.
Nofonno Amarr Free Traders	Posted - 2007.07.26 11:14:00 - [45] Originally by: Erichk Knaar Well, the current fortress implementation is actually written in Java (I compiled it from source last night). Having said that, I have a lot of respect for Suns engineering capabilities. I just happen to think Python is a perfectly adequate language for what is being attempted here. The overall maintainability of the Eve code base, I can't comment on, because I've never seen it. I don't think its really fair to blame the language for anything though. Perfectly agree. Nice to find a reasonable man on the forums, once in a while. Python is indeed adequate, but it never hurts to explore alternatives From what I have experienced since the Python upgrade and client patch is the TQ going down twice in ~30 hours and having slightly lower performance. As I have said previously, migrations are quirky matters and I pray CCP guys and girls will make it work... eventually... soonÖ A scientist must be an optimist at heart - to have the strength to rally against a chorus of voices saying "it cannot be done".
rodgerd Uninvited Guests	Posted - 2007.07.26 19:39:00 - [46] Originally by: Erichk Knaar Wait, you didn't just suggest they replace an interpreted language with an interpreted language written in Java? You did... Python is not, in any meaningful sense of the word, an interpreted languange. -- Not the opinions of my corp or my alliance.
Erichk Knaar Caldari Maelstrom Crew	Posted - 2007.07.26 20:21:00 - [47] Do explain.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpreted_language
rodgerd Uninvited Guests	Posted - 2007.07.27 07:24:00 - [48] Originally by: Erichk Knaar Do explain.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpreted_language Python is compiled to an intermediate bytecode; the bytecode is exectured. If you consider Python an interpreted language, I guess you consider C# and Java interpreted languages. -- Not the opinions of my corp.
Erichk Knaar Caldari Maelstrom Crew	Posted - 2007.07.27 08:22:00 - [49] Edited by: Erichk Knaar on 27/07/2007 08:21:58 I actually do consider C# and Java (without JIT) to be interpreted languages. Bytecode still needs to be interpreted before it runs.
rodgerd Uninvited Guests	Posted - 2007.07.27 11:13:00 - [50] Originally by: Erichk Knaar Edited by: Erichk Knaar on 27/07/2007 08:21:58 I actually do consider C# and Java (without JIT) to be interpreted languages. Bytecode still needs to be interpreted before it runs. C source needs to be interpreted before it runs. So does assembler mnemonic. Your definition is so broad as to be nearly worthless. Anyway, your objection to the performance of "interpreted languages" is ridiculous, since your definition includes languages whose performance is comparable to C and C++ code. -- Not the opinions of my corp.

Norwood Franskly	Posted - 2007.07.27 12:04:00 - [51] Originally by: Andargor theWise Originally by: Al'Lan Mandragoran Originally by: Herio Mortis Originally by: Victor Valka Edited by: Victor Valka on 20/07/2007 19:57:23 AFAIK Stackless is used server-side, not client-side. EDIT: Furthermore, as any half-decent programmer will tell you, there is no One Language to Rule Them All. Stackless python is also used in the client. And you are correct, there is no one language to rule them all. (Except python, that is.) You got it almost right. There is no One language to rule them all, except Ruby. I think it is time for the Lords of COBOL to return... COBOL = Compiles Only By Obscene Luck FORTRAN '77 FTW
Caligulus Caldari Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2007.07.28 07:27:00 - [52] N3rds
Spurty Caldari Citadel of dark arts	Posted - 2007.07.29 20:58:00 - [53] Python is completely the correct language for a game like EVE. Why? http://www.python.org/doc/essays/ppt/acm-ws/sld001.htm Go read. Python for the win I'd like an Amarrian Nipple Noogey please!
Solbright altaltalt Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.07.31 09:01:00 - [54] Originally by: rodgerd C source needs to be interpreted before it runs. So does assembler mnemonic. There is nothing interpreted about C or Assembly, except maybe in some weird limited educational tool. C is a purely compiled language - producing native machine code. And "assembling" is the very process of translating to it's represented machine code. The resulting binary file is separate from the sources but, being machine code, is for a specific CPU. If you aren't going to call something like Java/Python/whatever an interpreted language then you'd have to say it's running on an emulator of an imaginary CPU. Even BASIC programs are translated to a "tokenised" byte code before execution! The diff between BASIC and Java is that the byte code is standised with Java and therefore can be separated from the source code. This is why Java and it's ilk is considered superior to a traditional interpreted language. And, also, like BASIC, Java can be further compiled from the byte code to machine code. But that's another topic that is not really dealing with the language design any longer.


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