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New Blog, Porkbelly on the Stackless Python Upgrade

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 3 post(s)

CCP kieron	Posted - 2007.07.20 19:20:00 - [1] EVE is a complex piece of work. In one of his Dev Blogs from last year, Oveur mentioned that EVE has over 1 million lines of code. With Revelations 1 and 2 published, that number stands to be a lot higher. As some of the more technically inclined members of the community know, EVE is written in a programming language called Stackless Python, an experimental implementation of Python. CCP has been working with the Python community to improve Python, not only to benefit EVE, but also the language itself. Tuesday's Revelations 2.1 patch deployment will also include a major update to the language in which EVE is written. To give the EVE community some history behind Tuesday's upgrade from Stackless Python version 2.3 to 2.5, Porkbelly has a new Dev Blog. kieron Director of Community Relations, EVE Online EVE Online, CCP Games Email/Netfang Look Ma, I'm in a Dev thread! Oh wait...

Adrielle Firewalker Minmatar WASTELAND MINERS Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.20 19:33:00 - [2] I thought CCP were moving away from using Python and focusing more in the C++ side of things? Oh well, an upgrade is good if it offers more speed and stability ================ ~Adrielle Original MinmatarT
Alvara Kuiper Belt Industries Empire Research	Posted - 2007.07.20 19:33:00 - [3] Amazing, this might be first post. ;) Anyways. as a programmer I am always excited by new languages. I sure hope there ain't a poorly documented internal change that craps on eve's server completely. :p Good luck. btw. If I learn that language can I have a job. ;) Tired of Waiting? Use Empire Research
Ramblin Man Empyreum	Posted - 2007.07.20 19:35:00 - [4] Python 4tw. Nice to see you guys helped the wider dev community out.
Dietes Marcellus	Posted - 2007.07.20 19:53:00 - [5] GO CCP!
Victor Valka Caldari Archon Industries	Posted - 2007.07.20 19:55:00 - [6] Edited by: Victor Valka on 20/07/2007 19:57:23 Originally by: Adrielle Firewalker I thought CCP were moving away from using Python and focusing more in the C++ side of things? AFAIK Stackless is used server-side, not client-side. EDIT: Furthermore, as any half-decent programmer will tell you, there is no One Language to Rule Them All.
Adrielle Firewalker Minmatar WASTELAND MINERS Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.20 19:58:00 - [7] Originally by: Victor Valka AFAIK Stackless is used server-side, not client-side. Ah right. I was thinking of a blog a looong time ago where they were shifting a lot of the agent missions stuff from Python to C++. This makes sense ================ ~Adrielle Original MinmatarT
Herio Mortis Raw Edge O X I D E	Posted - 2007.07.20 20:03:00 - [8] Originally by: Victor Valka Edited by: Victor Valka on 20/07/2007 19:57:23 AFAIK Stackless is used server-side, not client-side. EDIT: Furthermore, as any half-decent programmer will tell you, there is no One Language to Rule Them All. Stackless python is also used in the client. And you are correct, there is no one language to rule them all. (Except python, that is.) ----- And pop went my ferox...
Victor Valka Caldari Archon Industries	Posted - 2007.07.20 20:11:00 - [9] Originally by: Herio Mortis Stackless python is also used in the client. And you are correct, there is no one language to rule them all. (Except python, that is.) (0) You could be right, I could be wrong. (1) It can be confusing sometimes. Especially with variable types. Sometimes I miss the clear definition of C/C++. Maybe because I'm only a rookie programmer, maybe not. Meh.
Evelgrivion Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.07.20 20:12:00 - [10] Needs more Cowbell! This isn't the signature you're looking for. Can you tell me where to find the one I am looking for? -Kaemonn

Al'Lan Mandragoran	Posted - 2007.07.20 20:13:00 - [11] Originally by: Herio Mortis Originally by: Victor Valka Edited by: Victor Valka on 20/07/2007 19:57:23 AFAIK Stackless is used server-side, not client-side. EDIT: Furthermore, as any half-decent programmer will tell you, there is no One Language to Rule Them All. Stackless python is also used in the client. And you are correct, there is no one language to rule them all. (Except python, that is.) You got it almost right. There is no One language to rule them all, except Ruby.
Ampoliros Phantom Knights	Posted - 2007.07.20 20:19:00 - [12] These patch notes contain insufficient amounts of cowbell. ------------------------------------
Scorpyn Caldari Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.07.20 21:32:00 - [13] Originally by: Ampoliros These patch notes contain insufficient amounts of cowbell. Indeed. I don't see how it could contain enough though - more is always needed. (yay for desync fix btw (if it works properly)) 2007-07-19 20:26
Roemy Schneider BINFORD	Posted - 2007.07.21 06:23:00 - [14] i got a fever and the only prescription is mor cowbell - putting the gist back into logistics
rodgerd Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.07.21 06:28:00 - [15] Originally by: Adrielle Firewalker Ah right. I was thinking of a blog a looong time ago where they were shifting a lot of the agent missions stuff from Python to C++. This makes sense They were moving the mission authoring system from one which required Python to one that didn't require any programming expertise. -- Not the opinions of my corp or my alliance.
Cergorach Amarr The Helix Foundation	Posted - 2007.07.21 08:51:00 - [16] In the past it was mentioned that the Eve server software couldn't take advantage of multi cpu/core, will this change with this new version of (Stackless) Python? I googled Stackless Python on it, but to be honest, i couldn't find a clear answer. If not is this a priority at the CCP development team to get eve to scale better?
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Aeden Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.07.21 11:05:00 - [17] I don't like interpreted languages, especially when it comes to online games. I think these particuliars app (ie online games) must have compilated language to work fast. You should have coded this part in c++... Anyway, any perf boost in this language is a good thing for us. Have fun with non-regression and qualification tests :) -=-=-
Sarturus	Posted - 2007.07.21 12:28:00 - [18] Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn I don't like interpreted languages, especially when it comes to online games. I think these particuliars app (ie online games) must have compilated language to work fast. You should have coded this part in c++... I think it's more important to choose a language that allows you to focus on design Python has a lot more expressive power than C++... and the benchmarks on Stackless Python are very nice indeed performance wise. Optimisation comes from a higher level than compilation imho Stackless 2.5 ftw!
RedClaws Amarr Dragon's Rage Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2007.07.21 12:33:00 - [19] Heya Kieron, Small question here: I just got my diploma as a professional bachelor in informatics and I want to learn some more languages (Java and .NET don't really cut it for advanced programming, especially 3D) so now I'm looking into Python since I've heard a lot of people say it's a very promising language close to C++. Can you give me a tip on what development environment to use? Code completion, syntax highlighting and such are just too handy to leave out. I've looked into a few like Wing, PyDev and Komodo but I'd like to get a professional opinion aswell
flameangel	Posted - 2007.07.21 16:44:00 - [20] "This Blog entry does not exist"

Liang Nuren The Refugees	Posted - 2007.07.21 18:27:00 - [21] Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn I don't like interpreted languages, especially when it comes to online games. I think these particuliars app (ie online games) must have compilated language to work fast. You should have coded this part in c++... Anyway, any perf boost in this language is a good thing for us. Have fun with non-regression and qualification tests :) Thought I'd point out that as a developer for the Python project, this is kindof insulting. Python, and Stackless in particular, are written with an eye towards correctness - and then speed. Python's test suite is fairly comprehensive, and I can only assume that CCP has moved forward with this practice. Furthermore, the propensity towards bugs is much higher in lower level languages. There's more to keep track of, and error checking is simply brutal. And then, once you top a few million lines of source, it's just that much harder to get "the big picture", so to speak. Developing in a an expressive and concise language (such as Python, imho) allows a developer to grok a much larger piece of the code immediately. It also helps them to write less buggy code. But in the end, you're saying that, instead of writing a million lines of Python, and 2 million lines of C/C++, that they should have written 8 million lines of C++? That's likely twice as buggy as the (clearer, condensed, and reasonably fast) Python code? Sure, sounds smart to me. Liang Originally by: "QproQ" When people say "Put 'stabs on your 'cane", they mean GYROSTABS"
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.07.21 19:13:00 - [22] Originally by: flameangel "This Blog entry does not exist" yeah wierd ----------------------------------- I'm working my way through college target CCP
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.07.21 19:19:00 - [23] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn I don't like interpreted languages, especially when it comes to online games. I think these particuliars app (ie online games) must have compilated language to work fast. You should have coded this part in c++... Anyway, any perf boost in this language is a good thing for us. Have fun with non-regression and qualification tests :) Thought I'd point out that as a developer for the Python project, this is kindof insulting. Python, and Stackless in particular, are written with an eye towards correctness - and then speed. Python's test suite is fairly comprehensive, and I can only assume that CCP has moved forward with this practice. Furthermore, the propensity towards bugs is much higher in lower level languages. There's more to keep track of, and error checking is simply brutal. And then, once you top a few million lines of source, it's just that much harder to get "the big picture", so to speak. Developing in a an expressive and concise language (such as Python, imho) allows a developer to grok a much larger piece of the code immediately. It also helps them to write less buggy code. But in the end, you're saying that, instead of writing a million lines of Python, and 2 million lines of C/C++, that they should have written 8 million lines of C++? That's likely twice as buggy as the (clearer, condensed, and reasonably fast) Python code? Sure, sounds smart to me. Liang thanks for the info. ----------------------------------- I'm working my way through college target CCP
Gar Nomar	Posted - 2007.07.21 20:48:00 - [24] Hey, you never know... perhaps the speed boost in 2.5 will get EVE back to what it was when it ran with 2.1!
Tarminic Black Flame Industries	Posted - 2007.07.21 21:59:00 - [25] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn I don't like interpreted languages, especially when it comes to online games. I think these particuliars app (ie online games) must have compilated language to work fast. You should have coded this part in c++... Anyway, any perf boost in this language is a good thing for us. Have fun with non-regression and qualification tests :) Thought I'd point out that as a developer for the Python project, this is kindof insulting. Python, and Stackless in particular, are written with an eye towards correctness - and then speed. Python's test suite is fairly comprehensive, and I can only assume that CCP has moved forward with this practice. Furthermore, the propensity towards bugs is much higher in lower level languages. There's more to keep track of, and error checking is simply brutal. And then, once you top a few million lines of source, it's just that much harder to get "the big picture", so to speak. Developing in a an expressive and concise language (such as Python, imho) allows a developer to grok a much larger piece of the code immediately. It also helps them to write less buggy code. But in the end, you're saying that, instead of writing a million lines of Python, and 2 million lines of C/C++, that they should have written 8 million lines of C++? That's likely twice as buggy as the (clearer, condensed, and reasonably fast) Python code? Sure, sounds smart to me. Liang /signed ------------ ULTIMATE LAG SOLUTION IBTL! IBDS/DC! IBTC! 1st in a BoB post! And other such forum tom-foolery.

CCP kieron	Posted - 2007.07.23 15:24:00 - [26] I had to take the blog down over the weekend, as it had been published prematurely. The blog has been completed and re-published with more information. Enjoy! kieron Director of Community Relations, EVE Online EVE Online, CCP Games Email/Netfang Look Ma, I'm in a Dev thread! Oh wait...

Turiya Flesharrower coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.07.23 16:28:00 - [27] To hell with Python! I want the Eve server code ported to Erlang forthwith, if not sooner! -----
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.07.23 17:10:00 - [28] Originally by: Turiya Flesharrower To hell with Python! I want the Eve server code ported to Erlang forthwith, if not sooner! gave me a good laugh. oh man how old is that :P lol ----------------------------------- I'm working my way through college target CCP
Invictor Caldari Black Reign FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.23 18:08:00 - [29] Well tbh, I didn't understand the vast majority of the post as I have difficulty programming my DVD player but if Eve runs faster then I'm all up for it
Ashp	Posted - 2007.07.23 18:12:00 - [30] Aww, I was still hoping for graphs and numbers, like some CPU charts of a node with the old code vs the new code. Still, glad to see the move to the latest python. I take it you guys are going to try harder to keep up to date with newer python releases, so it doesn't drift away again? (Ps, excited about Python3k yet?) :)



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