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DONT NERF CAPACITOR RELAYS

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Cao Cao	Posted - 2004.01.29 02:56:00 - [1] Increase shield recharge rate by x10 That will balance things out, I would prefer to see shield recharge beefed up instead of knocking down Cap relays ... already it takes too little time to kill a battleship, give people a reason NOT to use the cap relays rather than nerfing that module itself. What say ye??
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2004.01.29 03:16:00 - [2] Can always switch to power diagnostics, I guess. :/ I dunno, Apocolypses with cap relays is kind of insane. I would like to see shield recharge be useful on a battleship. This is a tough balance issue.. it's kind of obvious that the hardest battleships to kill are not the ones with the most medium slots but the ones with the most cap relays and the XL shield boosters. ------ ROBBLE ROBBLE
Cao Cao	Posted - 2004.01.29 04:32:00 - [3] Well what I'm saying is that if you actually make shield recharge rate something that matters and is worth something ... people might be more leery about trading it off for the added cap bonus from the relays. If shield recharge rate were valuable, then you'd actually be losing something for your bonus to cap recharge. In fact you could mathematically balance it by simply making shields recharge at a similar rate to capacitor ... meaning, of course, that if you wanted to divert power away from your shield recharge rate, it wouldn't be for the benefit of shield booster but more for weapon power. Might be considered a nerf to Amarr ships BUT in fact ... what is your mantra Jim ... DONT NERF SHIPS, BALANCE MODULES.
Nootami	Posted - 2004.01.29 05:11:00 - [4] I agree with Cao Cao on this one. Originally by: Cortex Reaver [22:39:59] [Oi]Nootami1 joined channel [22:40:02] [Oi]Nootami1 quit Oh,look! Someone joined for a whopping .3 seconds! -CR
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2004.01.29 05:15:00 - [5] Shield recharge should be a useful attribute.. I said this a while ago, and that cap relays should have a real drawback, considering how powerful they are. Of course I was flamed and accused of being biased and whatever, so blah blah, screw it. Knowing CCP they'd rather take the sledgehammer to cap relays rather than balance them and make shield recharge something useful, so brace yourselves. ------ ROBBLE ROBBLE
StoreSlem	Posted - 2004.01.29 05:25:00 - [6] Yeah, and what about giving cap relays some acutal fitting requirements? 15-20 cpu or so would be fine, like power diags.
Estarriol	Posted - 2004.01.29 07:27:00 - [7] Quote: In fact you could mathematically balance it by simply making shields recharge at a similar rate to capacitor ... Well, what would you estimate the relative rates of recharge rate to be at the current time?
Kalki Nibiru	Posted - 2004.01.29 07:54:00 - [8] I agree with Cao Cao to some extent. CCP does need to increase the shield recharge rate so that it is actually worth something, but I feel that if they just do that, then people will still load up on cap relays and use a shield charger. What I think CCP needs to do is make some more shield skills and perhaps some shield modules. Make shields less perfect than they are now, for example, make shields absorb only 90% of the damage inflicted and have a rank 3 skill increase the dmg absorbtion by 5% per level. For a module idea, have something that will increase the dmg abosorbtion, these modules would make the shield "harder" but be passive. Hell, go a few steps further and give the Caldari ships an inate 100% absorption rate (as they are the main shield users). My ideas are general, and they may not be very good to begin with, but CCP needs to make it so that there would be a good reason to want a high recharge rate for your shields. Taken from the May 29th 2003 Devchat at EveGate . <Muaddid> Q: When will sentry gun and station and similar construction pods be introduced on the market? <Hellmar> we have various player owned entities already implemented. Sentry guns, power/shield generators, field repair mini-stations, mobile refineries. We are still working out the last tidbits of how they can be over taken, what is the penalty of having a sentry gun kill a n00b etc. and we have been a bit busy with plugging the holes that people have found.I would say that you'd start to see these items on the market in about 2-3 weeks, very expensive to begin with
FZappa	Posted - 2004.01.29 08:28:00 - [9] Edited by: FZappa on 29/01/2004 08:30:16 shield recharge X 10 !? scorption with 6k shield , shield tank setup .. invulnerablility anyone ? however , if they do nerf the relays , anyone wanna trade me some 1400mm for my tachyons ? ;) -------------------------
Cao Cao	Posted - 2004.01.29 08:33:00 - [10] Quote: Edited by: FZappa on 29/01/2004 08:30:16 shield recharge X 10 !? scorption with 6k shield , shield tank setup .. invulnerablility anyone ? however , if they do nerf the relays , anyone wanna trade me some 1400mm for my tachyons ? ;) Well, it would make ALL battleships and all ships in general more absorbant of damage. Even armor tank ships get the same benefit since it is the RECHARGE rate that is being increased, not maximum shield capacity. So it doesn't really matter if u have 3k shields or 10k shields, you will be gaining the same base amount of HP back per second. It affects all ships equally, doesn't benefit any one class.
FZappa	Posted - 2004.01.29 08:39:00 - [11] Edited by: FZappa on 29/01/2004 08:40:35 which would make pvp a slow tedious , not to mention bloody expensive (more?) experience , as everyone will be using shield tanks . we are the nerf bat , resistence is futile . -------------------------
Lysanne	Posted - 2004.01.29 09:43:00 - [12] kill cap recharge modules from lowslots ! cap power relay is the most imbalanced module in the game. they force everyone to use medium slots for defense (xl hardeners amplifier). need translation ?
FZappa	Posted - 2004.01.29 09:49:00 - [13] Quote: kill cap recharge modules from lowslots ! cap power relay is the most imbalanced module in the game. they force everyone to use medium slots for defense (xl hardeners amplifier). ermm let me get this right , u want everyone to use low slots for defense !? let me guess , you'r flying a megathron right ? -------------------------
qrac	Posted - 2004.01.29 09:49:00 - [14] Quote: Quote: Edited by: FZappa on 29/01/2004 08:30:16 shield recharge X 10 !? scorption with 6k shield , shield tank setup .. invulnerablility anyone ? however , if they do nerf the relays , anyone wanna trade me some 1400mm for my tachyons ? ;) Well, it would make ALL battleships and all ships in general more absorbant of damage. Even armor tank ships get the same benefit since it is the RECHARGE rate that is being increased, not maximum shield capacity. So it doesn't really matter if u have 3k shields or 10k shields, you will be gaining the same base amount of HP back per second. It affects all ships equally, doesn't benefit any one class. you're wrong. a ship with 6k shields and a ship with 3k shields with the same shield recharge @ 500s will not have the same recharge rate. ------------------------------------------- Insanes numquam moriuntur!
Svarun	Posted - 2004.01.29 10:02:00 - [15] Yeah just go ahead and nerf cap relays. Nerf any chance of viability that blaster megathrons had. Nerf tach apocs back to "+1 kill for me" targets. Nerf best setups of half of tier 2 battleships! Then just go ahead and nerf tempests too, just so everyone can be happy. Nerf everything untill we only have stones and sticks to throw at each other and even then, some people will find imbalance i gues. This sucks, first things get beefed up then they get nerfed back into oblivion in a seemingly neverending cycle propeled by forum whinebags. Its realy messing up with my will to play the damn game.
Zyrla Bladestorm	Posted - 2004.01.29 10:14:00 - [16] Quote: you're wrong. a ship with 6k shields and a ship with 3k shields with the same shield recharge @ 500s will not have the same recharge rate. In that case it would have to be set at 500s for the 6k shields and 250s for the 3k shields wouldn't it ? currently they all seem to have almost placeholder recharge rate with all ships of the same class having the same one .. which doesn't sound right to me to start with like . ----- Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
Tok Narok	Posted - 2004.01.29 11:32:00 - [17] Quote: Yeah, and what about giving cap relays some acutal fitting requirements? 15-20 cpu or so would be fine, like power diags. That's the best idea yet. Popular deviant.
Gryganne	Posted - 2004.01.29 12:02:00 - [18] I know I may be biased, but do we really NEED more nerfing for us Amarr BS pilots? I mean, Tachyons have already suffered quite a bit from the nerfbat, and they still have HUGE fitting reqs, not to mention the fact that they suck cap up like mad... which is why we basically fit so many Cap Power Relays in the first place... And trust me, sometimes I wish I could fit something more interesting in my lowslots. Armor Repairers, Damage Mods, etc.
Nimrodel	Posted - 2004.01.29 12:05:00 - [19] Quote: Yeah just go ahead and nerf cap relays. Nerf any chance of viability that blaster megathrons had. Nerf tach apocs back to "+1 kill for me" targets. Nerf best setups of half of tier 2 battleships! Then just go ahead and nerf tempests too, just so everyone can be happy. Nerf everything untill we only have stones and sticks to throw at each other and even then, some people will find imbalance i gues. This sucks, first things get beefed up then they get nerfed back into oblivion in a seemingly neverending cycle propeled by forum whinebags. Its realy messing up with my will to play the damn game. you seem a bit fustrated! Its almost impossible for CCP to gain ballance in a game such as Eve and with so many players finding the best setup's word gets around If CCP hadnt done so many 'nerfs' then we would all be in scorpian's with 98% sheilds resistances and Uber projectiles hitting for 4000 a pop!! (btw I lived of the 26% damage mods) Its somthign we just have to put up with an adapt Suggesting better ways to ballance modules is more helpful though its a bit of a problem, Even with -50% sheild recharge rate i would use Cpacitor Power relay's as sheild recharge isnt a n issue for me! Even with 7 low and 4 mid of some of the best sheild recharge modules the sheild recharge rate can only be got to around about 600 witch doesnt seem to match a med sheild booster! sheilds start at 2000 cap starts at 900ish perhaps putting the base sheild recharge down to around 1500 or best figure for ballance would help! If you gain the Equivalant sheilds of a large sheild booster left on then the capacitor power relay's will loose some of there power! Unfortunatly this Pushes up PDU's to the nerfing slab.... My onlt remining suggestion is to Up the powergrid usage and CPU usage of Capacitor power relay's Like PDU's make them rely on Eneregy Upgrades skill --------------------------------------------- Nimrodel Dark Force User Joint Espionage & Defence Industries --------------------------------------------- Your Medium YF-12a Smartbomb hits Rusty Cloud, doing 0.0 damage.
Shin Taka	Posted - 2004.01.29 12:06:00 - [20] The main reasons everyone uses cap relays is because: a) They give the best boost to cap recharge b) They cost next to nothing in fitting reqs c) The attrib they nerf is the most useless anyway. So, thats what needs to be looked at, not just a straight nerfing, These mods need to be either harder to fit, give a slightly worse boost or make sheild charge useful, which it isn't atm. With ABs and MWDs now taking HUGE amounts of cap, as well as everything else, i can *just get my blaster setup useful, but i have to carry it on my armour, they are the ONLY way to get the cap on a megathron or apoc up enogh to be useful, imho. (If anybody has any good ideas here, please elaborate rather than flame, i would love to be proven wrong) ----------- Keeper of the Wombat 2004.09.03 00:42:20notifyTraining of the skill Repair Systems lvl 6 has been completed.
Shin Taka	Posted - 2004.01.29 12:07:00 - [21] The main reasons everyone uses cap relays is because: a) They give the best boost to cap recharge b) They cost next to nothing in fitting reqs c) The attrib they nerf is the most useless anyway. So, thats what needs to be looked at, not just a straight nerfing, These mods need to be either harder to fit, give a slightly worse boost or make sheild charge useful, which it isn't atm. With ABs and MWDs now taking HUGE amounts of cap, as well as everything else, i can *just get my blaster setup useful, but i have to carry it on my armour, they are the ONLY way to get the cap on a megathron or apoc up enough to be useful, imho. (If anybody has any good ideas here, please elaborate rather than flame, i would love to be proven wrong) ----------- Keeper of the Wombat 2004.09.03 00:42:20notifyTraining of the skill Repair Systems lvl 6 has been completed.
Shin Taka	Posted - 2004.01.29 12:22:00 - [22] The main reasons everyone uses cap relays is because: a) They give the best boost to cap recharge b) They cost next to nothing in fitting reqs c) The attrib they nerf is the most useless anyway. So, thats what needs to be looked at, not just a straight nerfing, These mods need to be either harder to fit, give a slightly worse boost or make sheild charge useful, which it isn't atm. With ABs and MWDs now taking HUGE amounts of cap, as well as everything else, i can *just get my blaster setup useful, but i have to carry it on my armour, they are the ONLY way to get the cap on a megathron or apoc up enough to be useful, imho. (If anybody has any good ideas here, please elaborate rather than flame, i would love to be proven wrong) ----------- Keeper of the Wombat 2004.09.03 00:42:20notifyTraining of the skill Repair Systems lvl 6 has been completed.
Zarthan	Posted - 2004.01.29 12:35:00 - [23] Quote: I know I may be biased, but do we really NEED more nerfing for us Amarr BS pilots? I mean, Tachyons have already suffered quite a bit from the nerfbat, and they still have HUGE fitting reqs, not to mention the fact that they suck cap up like mad... which is why we basically fit so many Cap Power Relays in the first place... And trust me, sometimes I wish I could fit something more interesting in my lowslots. Armor Repairers, Damage Mods, etc. I think the fact that cap relays combat ccp's attempt to nerf tachyons is why cap relays are getting the nerf bat attack. Tachyons by far still deal the most damage in the game. Somone with a brain who sets up a apoc with 3x tachyon and 5x mega beam ( i think that's mathmatically possible) is incredibly hard to take out in a battle before they beat the crap outta you (thanks in part to the apoc's energy weapon skills of doom). _______________________________________________________ Get custom sigs and graphics done here Unforgivn Website
Popov	Posted - 2004.01.29 12:57:00 - [24] I just find it funny that every time CCP are about to introduce a tech 2 module into the game they nerf the tech 1 version so that the tech 2 is basically the same as the tech 1 was pre nerf
Nervar	Posted - 2004.01.29 14:54:00 - [25] Turns out people can bee dumber than a goldfish. Someone at the CCP office certanly is... -------------------------------------------------> What I look forward to is continued immaturity followed by death.
Arthur Eld	Posted - 2004.01.29 15:46:00 - [26] Lasers already still use too much cap even with cap recharge skills and amarr ship bonuses. Nerfing cap recharge modules will hurt lasers and amarr ships badly. ____________________ First comes smiles, then lies. Last is gunfire. We deal in lead.
dalman	Posted - 2004.01.29 17:14:00 - [27] I was gonna vote for teh nerfbat to swing at cap relays... ...but after seing the proposed stats on Heavy Neutralizers... ...I think that people will need their good cap recharge rate. M.I.A. since 2004-07-30
Ukiah	Posted - 2004.01.29 20:11:00 - [28] Quote: I just find it funny that every time CCP are about to introduce a tech 2 module into the game they nerf the tech 1 version so that the tech 2 is basically the same as the tech 1 was pre nerf In CCP-speech, this is called "making tech2 more attactive by making tech1 less attractive". We've seen it several times. To make low sec mining 'more attactive' they actually remove the attaction of high sec mining. To make agent courier missions more attractive, they make Navy combat missions LESS attractive (ie, reducing rewards and tech2 component bonus's recyclable minerals).
Hematic	Posted - 2004.01.29 21:12:00 - [29] It just seems like eve is turning into quake. Uber setup, nerf it. I appreciate that balancing can be hard but is there even a slight possibility that CCP can hire/acquire someone with even a small amount of ability to test things? Sensor boosters: Third week of the game I had my badger decked with these things because I saw the potential and no pirate could even get me locked. Damage mods: 4-5th week RUS nukes two m0o BS's using medium projs on an armaggedon. Refining: Week 1 or 2 people training PE5/RE5 able to get more value out of something than they put in. Space Command: reduced by 60% effectiveness almost a year after release? As you all know the list goes on for some time, of just bad foresight on the part of the dev crew at CCP. Because with all this they aren't solving the problem. With nerfs means that SOMETHING will rise to the top. It is a vicous cycle that they seem to be almost too far entrenched in at this point. Because with every change they then affect something else that they "didn't intend".
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2004.01.29 21:20:00 - [30] Edited by: Jim Raynor on 29/01/2004 21:22:43 The problem is CCP tends to not balance things correctly.. off the top of my head, the only thing I feel they got right, was the stacking penalties. That was a good change. An example of CCPs nerfing usually goes like this: Let's say we have the number 6, and most people feel like number 6 is too high, so most players say, it really should be 4, not 6. CCP comes and makes it 2, and no one wants to use 6 because now it's 2 and now it's useless, so they move on to something else. Does that make sense? =) The problem with capacitator relays is this: -They increase shield recharge, which effectively has no drawback, with a shield booster. -Their fitting requirements are 1/5th that of a power diagnostic, yet the relay is superior. Solution? I don't know. If shield recharge was a useful statistic, cap relays would certainly have a drawback. Certainly no one uses the shield relays which decrease cap recharge for shield recharge. The fitting requirements should probably be increased to atleast that of a power diagnostic IMO.. ------ ROBBLE ROBBLE

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