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Hematic
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Posted - 2004.01.29 22:04:00 -
[31]
I agree with you Jim. In fact in the beginning of the game I was one of those guys who was like "Oh yeah better get Shield Op up for faster recharge" and so it sits at 4.
I would love to see something happen with shield recharge. Even on caldari ships I have done lots of fittings tests to see if shield recharge could be a viable strategy and it just simply isn't.
Adjusting the fittings is probably not a bad idea but I think I would prefer a shield recharge boost solution as it would give players more options.
Not to mention, I have to imagine that nerfing cap relays by requiring more CPU would devastate amarr ships. I would expect that if cap relays had as much fittings as say diags amarr ships would lose about 30-45 total ship DPS because of fittings problems that it would create.
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Cao Cao
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Posted - 2004.01.29 22:28:00 -
[32]
The best thing about balacing it by making shield recharge useful is that it is mathematically possible to come up with an EXACT balance. Shield recharge should = cap recharge in whatever way. Since the last math class I took was Math 105 6.5 years ago my freshman year of college, I am not the one to come up with whatever exact formula is required.
But there IS a way to mathematically balance it so that shield recharge and cap recharge are essentially equal in energy value and thus if you want to divert ship power to your weapons, you are sacrificing in terms of shields.
This makes sense when you consider that Amarr are supposedly armor tanks...
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Teeth
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Posted - 2004.01.29 22:34:00 -
[33]
Why do people think the cap relays are getting nerfed? Did CCP say something?
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Omniwar
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Posted - 2004.01.29 23:54:00 -
[34]
Make cap power relays have +15% cap recharge and - 10 max cap.
As it is now then it does not matter if cap power relays had -99% shield recharge.
Hell, it seems they really have no idea how to make a balanced stinking game so who cares anymore.
Dont mind me, just really annoied that my Raven got the shaft, AGAIN.
Spawn of the Devil
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Estarriol
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Posted - 2004.01.29 23:58:00 -
[35]
 Quote:
Shield recharge should = cap recharge in whatever way.
This makes no sense, since your cap is used for other things besides shieldboosting.
Quote:
But there IS a way to mathematically balance it so that shield recharge and cap recharge are essentially equal in energy value and thus if you want to divert ship power to your weapons, you are sacrificing in terms of shields.
Check your shield booster attributes and see how much cap it takes to boost shield by a given amount.
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Estarriol
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Posted - 2004.01.30 00:00:00 -
[36]
Quote:
Make cap power relays have +15% cap recharge and - 10 max cap.
There is already an item in the game which does something like this. It's called "Capacitor Flux".
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archangel sean
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Posted - 2004.01.30 03:35:00 -
[37]
Edited by: archangel sean on 30/01/2004 03:38:55
Edited by: archangel sean on 30/01/2004 03:37:28
lol..I knew this would happen. I should'nt have killed so many ppl on chaos..including some bug hunters...
In reality, amarr ships do rely very heavily on cap relays, so much that even a mere 10% nerf in effectiveness will break the balance between defence and offence by not allowing enough cap to run shields and lasers. A mere nerf in requirements will also mess up amarr ships, in that they have low CPU stats.
Amarr ships were nerfed quite alot from the crystals, and they are barely balanced with the 1400/tempest and seige/raven.
A properly skilled pilot in a apoc, raven and tempest will cause a stalemate when fought each other.
IMO, they are balanced.
Please stop the nerfing, and just fix the shield recharge rate, so it gives more 'options' for players, and not take em away...
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xeno calligan
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Posted - 2004.01.30 04:45:00 -
[38]
Edited by: xeno calligan on 30/01/2004 04:49:48
Estarriol wrote:
Quote:
This makes no sense, since your cap is used for other things besides shieldboosting.
Suppose your cap regenereates 10 cap/s and your shields regenerate 10 hp/s.
With 1 cap power relay:
Cap recharge: 10 cap/s * (1+ 0.2) = 12 cap/s
Shield recharge: 10 hp/s * (1 - 0.25) = 7.5 hp/s
Thus you can convert 2.5 hp/s from the shields into an extra 2 cap/s rechrage for the cap, so the conversion ratio is: 2 cap/s / 2.5 hp/s = 0.8 cap/hp.
Fast forward to 8 cap power relays:
Cap recharge: 10 cap/s * (1+ 0.2)^8 = 43.0 cap/s
Shield recharge: 10 hp/s * (1 - 0.25)^8 = 1.00 hp/s
Effectively converting 9 hp/s from the shields into an extra 33 cap/s rechrage for the cap. This time the conversion ratio is: 33 cap/s / 9 hp/s = 3.67 cap/hp.
Do you see a problem here? Paying less for more does not make sense.
Right now amarr ships can shield tank pretty well because of this. When you shield tank, it doesn't really matter how many shield points you had to begin with; All that matters is how effective you hardeners are and how much shield you can regenerate.
Currently, shield boosters work like shield repairers; You pay x cap for y shield points. How about instead letting the shield boosters boost the natural shield regeneration, giving caldari the advantage they need? The shield regeneration rate needs to be an important factor.
It is painfully obvious that the cap power relays are broken, and that they need to be fixed. Preferbly such that you divert x% of your shield recharge rate to additional cap recharge rate at a conversion rate of y cap/hp, rather than the current insane exponential conversion rates. Naturally the ships would have to be boosted significantly in cap regeneration to compensate.
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StoreSlem
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Posted - 2004.01.30 06:53:00 -
[39]
Edited by: StoreSlem on 30/01/2004 07:02:07
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Edited by: FZappa on 29/01/2004 08:30:16
shield recharge X 10 !?
scorption with 6k shield , shield tank
setup .. invulnerablility anyone ?
however , if they do nerf the relays , anyone
wanna trade me some 1400mm for my tachyons ? ;)
Well, it would make ALL battleships and all ships in general more absorbant of damage. Even armor tank ships get the same benefit since it is the RECHARGE rate that is being increased, not maximum shield capacity. So it doesn't really matter if u have 3k shields or 10k shields, you will be gaining the same base amount of HP back per second.
It affects all ships equally, doesn't benefit any one class.
you're wrong. a ship with 6k shields and a ship with 3k shields with the same shield recharge @ 500s will not have the same recharge rate.
However, their stock recharge times are based on their stock shield capacity.
At least its that for capacitor, with all ships having 4.6-4.8 stock recharge/s.
edit: battleships that is.
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Gryganne
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Posted - 2004.01.30 12:09:00 -
[40]
Quote:
In reality, amarr ships do rely very heavily on cap relays, so much that even a mere 10% nerf in effectiveness will break the balance between defence and offence by not allowing enough cap to run shields and lasers. A mere nerf in requirements will also mess up amarr ships, in that they have low CPU stats. Amarr ships were nerfed quite alot from the crystals, and they are barely balanced with the 1400/tempest and seige/raven. A properly skilled pilot in a apoc, raven and tempest will cause a stalemate when fought each other. IMO, they are balanced. Please stop the nerfing, and just fix the shield recharge rate, so it gives more 'options' for players, and not take em away...
That about sums it up.
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Jhered Stern
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Posted - 2004.01.30 15:28:00 -
[41]
And trust me, sometimes I wish I could fit something more interesting in my lowslots. Armor Repairers, Damage Mods, etc.
And there is your ballance! The cap relay's are fine. I think that shield rechargers are what need a bit of an upgrade. Not too much just a little kick in the but to make them useful. Cap relay's serve a functional balance for Amarians and are an added blessing to other races. The balance comes in through their use of low slots. Trust me, non Amarian ships suffer the worse from this.
If you nerf the cap relay's you will seriously hurt the Amarians and no one will want to play them.
As for Tacheons. Leave them alone! They never needed to be changed in the first place.
Jhered Out!
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dalman
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Posted - 2004.01.30 15:39:00 -
[42]
Quote:
Edited by: xeno calligan on 30/01/2004 04:49:48
Estarriol wrote:
Quote:
This makes no sense, since your cap is used for other things besides shieldboosting.
Suppose your cap regenereates 10 cap/s and your shields regenerate 10 hp/s.
With 1 cap power relay:
Cap recharge: 10 cap/s * (1+ 0.2) = 12 cap/s
Shield recharge: 10 hp/s * (1 - 0.25) = 7.5 hp/s
Thus you can convert 2.5 hp/s from the shields into an extra 2 cap/s rechrage for the cap, so the conversion ratio is: 2 cap/s / 2.5 hp/s = 0.8 cap/hp.
Fast forward to 8 cap power relays:
Cap recharge: 10 cap/s * (1+ 0.2)^8 = 43.0 cap/s
Shield recharge: 10 hp/s * (1 - 0.25)^8 = 1.00 hp/s
Effectively converting 9 hp/s from the shields into an extra 33 cap/s rechrage for the cap. This time the conversion ratio is: 33 cap/s / 9 hp/s = 3.67 cap/hp.
Do you see a problem here? Paying less for more does not make sense.
Right now amarr ships can shield tank pretty well because of this. When you shield tank, it doesn't really matter how many shield points you had to begin with; All that matters is how effective you hardeners are and how much shield you can regenerate.
Currently, shield boosters work like shield repairers; You pay x cap for y shield points. How about instead letting the shield boosters boost the natural shield regeneration, giving caldari the advantage they need? The shield regeneration rate needs to be an important factor.
It is painfully obvious that the cap power relays are broken, and that they need to be fixed. Preferbly such that you divert x% of your shield recharge rate to additional cap recharge rate at a conversion rate of y cap/hp, rather than the current insane exponential conversion rates. Naturally the ships would have to be boosted significantly in cap regeneration to compensate.
These calculations are INCORRECT
Since they affect the recharge time, not the total ammount.
The correct formula is:
With 1 cap relay:
(10 cap/s) / (0.8) = 12.5 cap/s
(10 hp/s) / (1.25) = 8 hp/s
With 8 cap relays:
(10 cap/s) / (0.8^8) = 59.6 cap/s
(10 hp/s) / (1.25^8) = 1.68 hp/s
Ie, the bonus of using many cap relays are EVEN BIGGER than you suggested.
M.I.A. since 2004-07-30 |
TWD
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Posted - 2004.01.30 17:22:00 -
[43]
Edited by: TWD on 30/01/2004 17:23:50
Nerfing cap relays will be a good thing IMO, or increase the CPU needs.
heavy energy neutralizers actually neutralize/use almost the same as the old normal energy neutralizers, about 21 capacitor per second now (500 per 24 secs as seen in the stats)
but the powergrid requirements are insane !
2500 ! o_0 |
dalman
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Posted - 2004.01.30 17:31:00 -
[44]
Edited by: dalman on 30/01/2004 17:35:40
Quote:
Edited by: TWD on 30/01/2004 17:23:50
Nerfing cap relays will be a good thing IMO, or increase the CPU needs.
heavy energy neutralizers actually neutralize/use almost the same as the old normal energy neutralizers, about 21 capacitor per second now (500 per 24 secs as seen in the stats)
but the powergrid requirements are insane !
2500 ! o_0
Yep. They neutralize almost the same cap/second, 20.83 compared to 20 earlier.
But the range. The range, the range!!!
21 km instead of 5500m That's more than enough to make up for the big fitting requirements. These babies are overpowered IMO.
And the Nosferatu also look very good. Expect to see my raven fitted with 2x nosferatu + 6x launcher when they are out (and the bug is fixed).
*edit*
I also hope you see the possibility in, say a 5vs5 fight, that everyone has 2 neuts each fitted in your gang, and thereby take away 5000 cap from one opponant's ship the second the fight starts, making that ship "instantly dead", and with number 2 soon to follow...
M.I.A. since 2004-07-30 |
TWD
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Posted - 2004.01.30 18:18:00 -
[45]
True, I had 14.4km range on my unstable powers on TQ before, didnt have much problems getting within that range.. but still 21km is a big difference, because of warp scramble range..
It seriously gimps the firepower on my apoc when fitting 2 heavy energy neutralizers now.
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Drusilla
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Posted - 2004.01.30 19:24:00 -
[46]
Has anyone done the math to figure out what the effects on someone's shields would be if they were putting SHIELD power relays in 8 low slots instead of CAP power relays?
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Plasmatique
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Posted - 2004.01.30 20:29:00 -
[47]
You can't forget though that the modules we've mostly been using are tech 1.
If a tech 1 cap power relay is +20% cap and -25% for shield...what would a tech 2 or 3...or 5 be?
I'd hate to see them nerfed also, but you have to have a little perspective on it. People use cap relays alot and afaik, NOBODY uses shield recharge mods because they are pretty useless....so yea, I wouldn't mind seeing a shield recharge boost.
.....................................
Proud Owner of a Navy Issue Raven
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Hematic
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Posted - 2004.01.30 22:20:00 -
[48]
Quote:
Has anyone done the math to figure out what the effects on someone's shields would be if they were putting SHIELD power relays in 8 low slots instead of CAP power relays?
I tried it once. I forget the total numbers now.
But the problem is that the shield recharge rate is base MUCH lower than cap. Then you couple that with the fact that you can turn 1 unit of cap into 1.2+ units of shields so therefore natural cap recharge > natural shield recharge.
Of course there is always the shield flux unit, and every pirate and uber PvP'r knows that these little babies are the hot ticket.
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Slithereen
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Posted - 2004.01.31 01:09:00 -
[49]
No more nerfs please!
What we need are boosts instead.
_______________________________________________
"Is it me or the bad guys just getting totally pathetic?"---Clover, Totally Spies,
"Hope is wasted on the Hopeless."---Mandy, The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy.
"Stars are holes in the sky from which the light of the Infinite shine through."---Confucius.
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Lady luck
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Posted - 2004.01.31 01:48:00 -
[50]
Quote:
But the problem is that the shield recharge rate is base MUCH lower than cap. Then you couple that with the fact that you can turn 1 unit of cap into 1.2+ units of shields so therefore natural cap recharge > natural shield recharge.
With Tech 2 you will be able to turn 1 unit of cap into 2 units of armor before skills, Maybe that will cause apoc users to move away from shields.
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LJSilver
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Posted - 2004.01.31 02:10:00 -
[51]
nerf nerf nerf nerf ....
nerf nerf nerf nerf ....
Every nerf just creates a new uber setup.
Eventually, it will take 2 hours to kill a newbie frigate with a battleship.
And then, CCP will have to nerf that to three hours.
http://www.liketelevision.com/web1/classictv/longjohn/longjohn210.gif |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.01.31 03:58:00 -
[52]
If shield recharge was an actual trade off, I'd say cap relays would be fine.
Since shield recharge is useless, cap relays are probably going to get nerfed, and well probably deserve to be. I doubt CCP would go through the trouble of making shield recharge useful, I just don't forsee that happening.
Yeah, Amarr probably benefit the most, but really don't all ships benefit from these modules? It's only super duper effective on Amarr because of the Apoc cap bonus.
The fitting requirements for cap relays is also insanely low, 4tft 2mw or something?
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
dalman
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Posted - 2004.01.31 04:44:00 -
[53]
Yea, the fitting reqs are a joke. The named ones are down to 3 tf. (though, atm I like it, since I'm using 749.7 out of my total 750.0 cap on my raven   )
M.I.A. since 2004-07-30 |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.01.31 05:09:00 -
[54]
Quote:
nerf nerf nerf nerf ....
nerf nerf nerf nerf ....
Every nerf just creates a new uber setup.
Eventually, it will take 2 hours to kill a newbie frigate with a battleship.
And then, CCP will have to nerf that to three hours.
Question is are battleships meant to have 6,000 capacitators with a 120 second recharge?
Just like the stacking of damage modules, were ships supposed to have 12x dmg mods and 3sec ROFs?
Were ships meant to have 98% resistances to all damage on their shields?
I'm not a fan of the nerf bat either but still, not all of CCPs changes were bad.
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
zincol
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Posted - 2004.01.31 11:24:00 -
[55]
boooooo! i lurv cap relays :-(
leave em alone u smelly nasty ccp dev's!!!
w00t!
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Slithereen
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Posted - 2004.01.31 11:28:00 -
[56]
Another nerf that will only hurt Raven. My Raven depends on cap relays to help power its hardeners, and lower CPU use so I can use 425 rails and Heavy Launchers. If I'm forced to use something else in the low slot, CPU usage would go up and it would affect my upper slots.
Taking too long to kill a battleship is fine, since if it takes too quickly, people will whine again and again.
_______________________________________________
"Is it me or the bad guys just getting totally pathetic?"---Clover, Totally Spies,
"Hope is wasted on the Hopeless."---Mandy, The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy.
"Stars are holes in the sky from which the light of the Infinite shine through."---Confucius.
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Boneca
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Posted - 2004.01.31 11:44:00 -
[57]
Well Caldari have been nerfed to high heaven, gallente got the mwd nerf to do the same to their close range tactics and this will do the job to Amarr.
I would train large projectiles but looking at what i have written above i guess the Minmatar and their projectiles will be next in line.
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Raisa Iyanami
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Posted - 2004.01.31 15:33:00 -
[58]
Shield recharge rate is a nearly useless number, especially in the timeframe of a combat. I'm not sure that increasing it tenfold is a good idea, but boosting it a little might be helpful, balance-wise.
However, what about tying the effectiveness of shield boosters to your shield recharge rate? Reward those that keep their rate modest or high, and penalize those that drive it towards 0%.
That and fixing the fitting costs would go a long way I think...
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Ka'loor
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Posted - 2004.01.31 15:47:00 -
[59]
woohoo nerf cap relays, just the BIG reason not to play amarr :D
My setup with cap relays allow me to fire weapons and shield booster enough, so i survive, nerf the cap relays, and you wont be even able to fire at all anymore.......or youll have to fire or boost your shields/armor heh not a choice a minmatar has to make.
Attack without mercy, until blood is gone, until life is gone, until the light is gone, unto the shadow itself.
Better to die with honor, than to live in shame. |
Hawk Firestorm
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Posted - 2004.02.01 04:01:00 -
[60]
The answer to this and many many other do's and don'ts is simple.
Change the fitting system to something that's adequate rather than the too simplistic system it is now, and define exactly what a ship can carry and how much of it.
But yes I agree, the reason people use so many of this item is because cap recharge rates are way too low on BS, compared to a Cruiser or other ship class, ya they have bigger caps but most of their equipment pulls alot more pwr too.
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