Originally by: Terranid Meester

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So I guesss the backstory of the Khanid having the most advanced shield generators outside of Caldari Space should be changed now? Or am I missing something?

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Originally by: Sakura Nihil

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This will screw with Curse tactics a bit, but we'll adapt (I think).

The problem that concerns me here isn't that, but the close-range missile only bonuses to the ships. In effect, you're locking them into a singular fighting style by forcing the bonuses to only apply to those modules - its one thing to say "CPU will be tight on a standard/heavy missile setup", that's fine, if it is tight and the player wants to attempt a long-range fit, let them try.

Might as well build in the rocket or HAM launchers for the players.

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Originally by: Amanda Zeherah

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Nice well-thought changes that will add some flavour to Amarr (Khanid) ships... Will have to train missiles now.

NOS changes sounds ok...

Also, in a battle, I dont think the GENERAL will be in the front line... in other words, is it intended that a FLEET command ship to fight at close range (even with long-range HAM fitted)?

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Originally by: Amy Robbins

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Thanks for ******* up the curse/pilgrim completely, any planned changes to them or are you just going to leave it as yet another useless ship?

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Originally by: Darian Hazedango

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How would multiple NOS on a single target work? Would it just bring the two caps to their equilibrium faster? If so there would be a great amount of diminishing returns for having more than one.

And if the equilibrium is measured in percent, surely the transfer amount can't be the same, is it? NOSing a frig of 1% of it's cap won't give a BS 1% of its cap, right?

Sigh, I had my ideal setup too. I guess this is just going to drive up the cost of cap injectors.

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Originally by: Rodj Blake

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Originally by: LordVodka

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Some people are suggesting that people now use neuts instead of nos, I don't know if they realized severall amarr ship need nos to even sustain cap, try throwing a neut on there you'll last 30 seconds, cut me a break, theres no way around the fact taht this is a way over done nerf.

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If you need nos to keep your guns and modules running, then the change will not affect you, since your capacitor will typically be lower than your opponent's.

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Originally by: ChapterMaster

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Originally by: LvxOccvlta

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Edited by: LvxOccvlta on 31/07/2007 10:04:58
If this NOS nerf comes about, we might see a resurgence of 100-man Frigate Gangs. Battleships will become limp like putty against a group of tacklers.

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And it will have to be 100 non-amarr frigates as well, because under the next round of restrictions, all Amarr ships will self destruct 10 mins after leaving the station.

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Originally by: Count Hades

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Those of you not flying amarr stop telling us what you think about these changes. The changes to the Khanid ships just don't fit the philosphy of the entire amarr race and do not go with the Khanid own history. From shield to armor, and from lasers to missiles. It is so wrong in so many ways...

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Originally by: IPyric

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Originally by: N1fty

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[This coming from a specialised Curse pilot with Talisman implants]

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!! Duel REP and Talisman implants in a curse LOL no wonder these changes dont affect you.. you dont even know how to fit a curse.

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Originally by: Count Hades

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Edited by: Count Hades on 31/07/2007 10:59:04
Edited by: Count Hades on 31/07/2007 10:58:40

Originally by: N1fty

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Edited by: N1fty on 31/07/2007 10:32:09

Originally by: Count Hades

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Those of you not flying amarr stop telling us what you think about these changes. The changes to the Khanid ships just don't fit the philosphy of the entire amarr race and do not go with the Khanid own history. From shield to armor, and from lasers to missiles. It is so wrong in so many ways...

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Khanid have good relations to the Caldari, and as such always integrate Caldari technology into their ships. They might not fit with TRUE Amarrian philosophy, but they fit PERFECTLY with Khanid philosophy.

EDIT: Go see for yourself!

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True.. but missiles seem a bit too much.. Anyway i am sure we are just wasting breath here. Clearly noone from CCP even reads this. Otherwise maybe they would fix the other more important problems in this game, starting with lag and de-sync. In the end CCP is god. Its will will be done no matter what we say and think.

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Originally by: Kalazar

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Originally by: MECTO

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Would be nice for the Maled to get the bonus to standard missiles as well as rockets though, as opposed to JUST making it a suicide ship (going into web range with an interceptor = suicide),

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Javelin Rocket's reach 13K BASE, alright you have a velocity penalty, but its not as severe as getting webbed now is it?

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Originally by: Shadowsword

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Originally by: Gypsio III

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HAM/rocket damage bonus on Khanid is fine. Javelin HAMs and rockets aren't short-ranged weapons anyway, and applying the bonuses to standard missiles and heavies would obsolete Caldari missile boats, so isn't viable.

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A ship if fine IF you use T2 weapons AND T2 ammos? What kind of crap argument is that? If a ship isn't fine with the standard, T1 stuff he's supposed to use, there is a problem with the ship, period.

The use of T2 is a bonus, it is not, it should never be, a prerequisite for being fine.

As for obsolote caldari boats, no, they'd just be different and just as good. And they should be just as good, not inferior caldari variants.

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Originally by: egal069

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I would like to test these new bonus's out, but can't seem to find a patch, or a way to patch my existing version. I geuss i can't really comment to much further till i've flown them and can see what their true potenial is. I know it says it's curently on the test server, but i'm lost, can someone point me in the right direction?

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Originally by: Aramendel

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Originally by: Azuse

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I do not understand what you are talking about and still utterly miss the point.

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Have you even read what I wrote?
Lets try if an example works.

A pilgrim has 1250 base cap.
A geddon has 5132 base cap.

This means the geddon has 4.1 cap for every 1 cap of the curse/pilgrim.
A neut with maxxed recon and energy emission skills kills 3.2 cap for every cap invested.

This means if you try to neut the cap of the geddon you will run out of cap BEFORE it.

Azuse: But there is the cap recharge!

Yes. But what you fail to understand is that this cap recharge is already in use. A pilgrim cannot even sustain a single rep (which it needs to run since it cannot completely disable targets), EW and scram with its cap recharge. It has no free recharge left to power the neut.

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Originally by: Aramendel

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Originally by: Santa Anna

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So you're saying that the Curse will have a lower % cap than the BS after activating its neut?

If only there were a module that would steal cap from the BS and give it to the Curse when the Curse has a lower % cap...

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The tiny detail you miss is with that tactic both ships will eventually sit at 0% cap. The curse or pilgrim cannot keep using nosses to power neuts while keeping its cap at 30%.
Which it needs to, because it needs its peak recharge to power scram & EW.

So the catch-22 is:

- in order to kill the target it needs to kill it's cap
- in order to kill its cap below peak recharge it needs to get its own cap below peak recharge
- in order to kill its target it needs EW to avoid getting killed by it and a scram to stop it from fleeing
- in needs it's peak recharge to power these modules

And in case you say now "cap booster" - guess what its target can fit, too. This works for both sides.

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Originally by: Aramendel

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Quote:

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Pointless text which is missing the point

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The curse will be weakened, but ok. We are talking about the pilgrim, though. Notice how you conveniently ignored it?

The pilgrim is no gangship. It is slow and has a very poor range with it's secondary weapon (nos/neuts) which makes it only really useful as 1v1 hunter. The nos changes essnetially kill that role since it won't be able to hunt anything but cruiser. For which you do not need a pilgrim really.
Mine sits already in jita since months, with that changes it will probably never undock anymore.

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Originally by: zero2espect

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Quote:

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Since when was a cruiser supposed to be able to solo a battleship anyway? Nos the battleship down to 40% then use neut to break his tank finally. Or use a Cap Booster, or nos one of his mates instead, or or or, ADAPT.

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look at any modern cruiser compared to any battleship still afloat in use by any navy in the world today.

tech2 cruisers are the equivalent of modern naval cruisers today. they are expensive, require lots of skills to use and are very dangerous. don't tell me that investing 10m SP in a toon to fly tech 2 ships is any comparison to the 14 day go rat in a battleship toon.

in reference to the post above - any ship that relies on nos to kill is nerfed...exactly. hello pilgrim, hello curse, hello baalg.

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Originally by: IPyric

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Originally by: IPyric

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Edited by: IPyric on 31/07/2007 14:24:02
can caldari ships get some lasers too :P

maybe a new wepon type for amarr ? perhaps ballista or trebuchetes

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yeah Ballista for close range and trebuchetes for long range on the khanid

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Originally by: Falun Assad

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Originally by: N1fty

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Edited by: N1fty on 01/08/2007 12:06:09
Edited by: N1fty on 01/08/2007 11:33:23

Current NOS change on SISI based on cap % difference is good. This % of recharge idea is a LOT BETTER, and I already had ideas about making NOS based on recharge rates.


Lets say the mega regens at a peak of 20 cap/sec and compare the two systems:

OLD NOS:
First Nos takes 8.3 Cap/s : mega has 11.7 Cap/s regen.
Second Nos takes 16.6 Cap/s : mega has 3.4 Cap/s regen.
Third Nos takes 24.9 Cap/s : mega has -4.9 Cap/s regen.

Its the unstacked cap killing properties of nos that are the biggest issue, especially Large NOS vs frigs.


NEW NOS: Im going to say new nos takes 40% of regen.
First Nos takes 0.4*20 = 8 Cap/s : mega has 12 cap/s regen.
Second Nos takes 0.4*12 = 4.8 Cap/s : mega has 7.2 cap/s regen.
Third Nos takes 0.4*7.2 = 2.88 cap/s : mega has 4.32 cap/s regen.
TOTAL Nossed: 15.68 Cap/s leaving the mega with 4.32 cap/s


So we result in one NOS behaiving exactly the same as before, adding a second gives a severe stacking penalty, but its good enough to halt the majority of regen, while giving the nosser a nice cap boost to sustain tank and whatnot, adding a third nos onto one target is pretty fruitless.

In terms of big NOS vs Small ships, you're only taking the cap regenerated and not the reserves, so a small ship can't be zapped in one or two cycles of a nos.

Issues

Small ships vs Big ships will need some sort of limit on how much energy NOS can steal, because if Small NOS take 40% of a Battleships regen then thats a huge amount of cap. But I dont think you can say small nos only takes 10% because then thats useless against other frigs.

In order to fix this problem we simply take the transfer amount from before and use that as a MAX Cap/s transfer figure. In this way Frigates using Small Nosferatu I can only take a maximum of 2.6 Cap/s, no matter what ship they attack.


What if the mega is on 100% cap? I get 40% of 0 regen!

Fit a neut/make him activate some mods, pull his cap down until you think it is around 30% and then switch to nos, thus adding a tactical element to Neut/NOS combo's. Ideally you want to get someone at 30% with your nos because this is where maximum regen is achieved.


EDIT: Made a big mistake on my maths - fixed.
EDIT: Added some more of that maths stuff.
EDIT: Added answers to possible issues, formatting.

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This is a nice and very elegant approach, because:
a.: you have to use neuts to kill the targets cap
b.: a heavily nossed ship can still survive for quite some time (cap booster)
c.: it doesnt break dedicated NOS ships

Excellent! Much better than what CCP has in mind.

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Originally by: Hammar Wolf

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Simplest and easiest solution is to create NOS/Neutralizer specific slots on a ship limiting how many could possibly be put on. It keeps the amarr recons in their role and prevents the crazy all NOS ship setups that others are prone to, i.e. the Dominix which finds a way to break everything that is good in eve.

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Originally by: Borasao

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Quote:

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I have read all 27 pages of this thread [bored at work the past couple of days] and while I think this NOS change will fix NOS, its not particularly elegant, its quite hard to understand,

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Only to those who have failed/forgotten 3rd grade science. osmosis It never fails to amaze me what people think "they'll never need later in life" from school.

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Originally by: Hammar Wolf

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Well there are several problems. For one the pilgrim can only take on caldari ships if its well tanked and has armor plating to last, with a full tackling fitting such as all scrams or webs or a combo of damps and scrams it is heavily cap dependent. Now currently a Pilgrim vs Raven fight reaches a key point when the raven is sapped for cap but the pilgrim has plenty to go and can outlast the hitpoints on the raven. With the new setup to kill his cap you have to have none yourself, shortly thereafter your mods will turn off and you may well die as the raven can last much longer on its HP than the pilgrim. 2 nos + 1 neut are simply insufficient to fully power the pilgrim for one and its a deadly setup because once the opponent runs out of cap your neut may keep going and drain you to the last ounce you have before you manage to turn it off. Also you are now totally vulnerable to someone throwing a neut onto you, especially at the wrong moment which means fairly instant death.

Was jamming a scorp yesterday while draining him and the fight went pretty well since his nos couldn't really counter mine when he could use it. If I didn't have plenty reserve cap whenever it hit I would have lost all power and this is precisely what will happen with this patch - once you hit low 1 heavy neut will decimate you instantly.

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